Druid questions

[Rumo]

Hi,

my Druid has reached Level 9 recently, and I have a couple of questions. Partly regarding new choices I'm facing, partly regarding former (and very likely current) rule misunderstandings. My build seems to be rather usual, lots of summons, Wild Shape and a companion, all of which are fluffy (bears and wolves, whatever seems to be the strongest choice at the given moment). My feats so far: Spell Focus Conjuration, Augment Summoning, Nature's Bond, Natural Spell.

1. What feat is a safe pick? Intelligence is too low for Combat Expertise. I'm considering Multiattack because I expect in the future there won't be many forms in use that have only one attack. Not bad for bears up to dire bear. Nice if I want dragon wildshape later. Do I? How strong is a medium dragon compared to a huge elemental on later levels?

2. There is a feat afaik, I don't know the name, that lets you take 10s on Concentration checks. Is that a good idea? On the one hand, when in close combat a Druid wants to .... close combat. On the other hand, when battle doesn't go our way, 1d4+1 additional dire wolves tend to do more than claw claw bite.

3. Unless you play in snowy environment, does polar bear wild shape have any advantages above brown bear wild shape? Attributes are identical. Druid uses his own BAB and his own resistances, not to mention his own HD.

4. Am I correct that in a similar way to point 3 I also have to tackle the question regarding my animal companion? Once I reach level 10 I calculate numbers and compare smallest possible polar bear to pimped brown bear?

Thanks in advance for any help!

[Pan151]

If I was in your place, I would ask the DM if I was allowed to retrain my feats, and pick up aberration blood and aberrant wild shape. Without retraining, Imbued Summoning and Frozen Wild Shape are pretty solid. Combat reflexes can be a decent pick as well.
As for dragon wild shape, it gives you amazing utility (you can get whatever immunity you may want for a particular fight, fast travel, rust dragons can deal with a whole load of things)... but they're not particularly good for combat usage, as their stats are kind of terrible.

[Darrin]

1. What feat is a safe pick? Intelligence is too low for Combat Expertise. I'm considering Multiattack because I expect in the future there won't be many forms in use that have only one attack. Not bad for bears up to dire bear. Nice if I want dragon wildshape later. Do I? How strong is a medium dragon compared to a huge elemental on later levels?


I think I'd grab Improved Unarmed Strike before Multiattack: iterative unarmed strikes + secondary natural weapons works with all possible animals, while Multiattack only works with the animals that have multiple natural weapons.

9th is also a good spot to take a reserve feat. I like Minor Shapeshift, but Summon Elemental is quite nifty.

Companion Spellbond (PHBII) or Great and Small (Complete Champion) could also be useful. It depends a lot on your play style.



2. There is a feat afaik, I don't know the name, that lets you take 10s on Concentration checks. Is that a good idea? On the one hand, when in close combat a Druid wants to .... close combat. On the other hand, when battle doesn't go our way, 1d4+1 additional dire wolves tend to do more than claw claw bite.


Hardened Criminal (City of Stormreach) does this, but you need Iron Will first. Can't recall if there's another feat that does this... although there are a few PrCs that offer this as a class feature (Exemplar being the most notable). Even if it were available for a single feat, I'd skip it. If you've been maxing out Concentration already, then in a few levels your ranks will be high enough that making any Concentration check will either be automatic or inconsequentially easy. Buy a Tunic of Steady Spellcasting (2500 GP, MIC) if you need a competence bonus.



3. Unless you play in snowy environment, does polar bear wild shape have any advantages above brown bear wild shape? Attributes are identical. Druid uses his own BAB and his own resistances, not to mention his own HD.


Polar Bear has a swim speed. Also, fresh blood shows up much better on white fur than brown fur.



4. Am I correct that in a similar way to point 3 I also have to tackle the question regarding my animal companion? Once I reach level 10 I calculate numbers and compare smallest possible polar bear to pimped brown bear?


Books available? I don't recall the best option at level 10... I thought the Dire Lion dishes out more DPS when you factor in Pounce/Rake, and I think the Polar Bear is a slightly better grappler... but then they both have Improved Grab, so back to even kinda? Are you using your companion as a mount or for transportation/flight? eggynack should be along shortly (if he hasn't already swordsaged me).

[sleepyphoenixx]

Steady Concentration (RoS) lets you always take 10 on concentration checks, not that it's really needed when you can take high Con forms.
Rapid Spell (CD) together with a Ring of the Beast (CC) lets you summon as a full round action without increasing spell level.
Initiate of Nature (PGtF) lets you rebuke and command animals and plants. Not that useful for combat because of HD constraints but can be used for a lot of more subtle things by commanding lower HD animals. Also adds some nifty but not overwhelming spells. How useful it is really depends on the style of campaign you're in.
Flyby Attack (MM) is good for spellcasting druids, not so much for melee though.

There's a variety of useful feats for summoners. Ashbound (EBCS) gives free extend and +3 to attack for all summons. Greenbound Summoning (LEoF) lets you summon animals with the powerful Greenbound template.
Rashemi Elemental Summoning (UE) improves elementals, notably adding Cone of Cold at CL = HD to air elementals. It starts being useful at SNA V but really comes into its own at SNA VI, when you can summon Huge (16HD) elementals for full CL Cone of Cold blasting.

Of the Wild Shape feats Frozen Wild Shape (FB) probably has the most raw damage potential with the cryohydra. It's pretty much a one trick pony though (the other forms suck). It also comes very late because you need to be able to shift into huge forms.
Dragon Wild Shape is mostly useful for utility, as mentioned. Only really worth taking if you have access to the various books containing dragons though, most notably Draconomicon and Dragons of Faerun. One thing worth mentioning for damage is the Steel Dragon (DoF) - it has a poison breath that can be used for powerful damage if you combine it with Venomfire (SK).

Aberration Wild Shape (LoM) probably gives you the most options among the various shape feats, and also some of the most powerful. Lots of interesting abilities that are hard to come by otherwise, along with good options for pretty much any role you can think of. It does have a prereq feat though and doesn't mesh well with most druidic fluff, if you care about that.

Regarding animal companions you usually get the most power by taking an animal with the highest level modifier you can handle (because they scale at 2/3 of your druid HD lower level options tend to fall behind). There are outliers though, notably the Fleshraker (MM3) - which is pretty good even without the insanity of Venomfire - and the Magebred Ghost Bear/Tiger (5N).

[Rumo]

If I was in your place, I would ask the DM if I was allowed to retrain my feats, and pick up aberration blood and aberrant wild shape. Without retraining, Imbued Summoning and Frozen Wild Shape are pretty solid. Combat reflexes can be a decent pick as well.
As for dragon wild shape, it gives you amazing utility (you can get whatever immunity you may want for a particular fight, fast travel, rust dragons can deal with a whole load of things)... but they're not particularly good for combat usage, as their stats are kind of terrible.

Thank you for all the helpful replies. I'm not really a big fan of Imbued Summoning. Firstly, Lowering the SNA strenght in this context seems to me to kind of defeat the purpose. Right now my favourite choice is the dire wolf. I summon 1D4+1 (~3,5) of them without metamagic. Using Imbued Summoning and let's say Bull Strenght, it'd be only 1D3 (~2), and I'd additionally lose one or more spell slots. Do I miss anything? Secondly, AFAIK there is that totem for little gold (3500?) that does just the same.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

1. For your 9th level feat, the Summon Elemental reserve feat in CM is an ideal choice. You can summon an elemental at will, only one at a time but it can be used to scout, it can Nodwick traps, and you can enter combat with it already out so you have another body to absorb attacks without spending any actions in combat to get it.

2. If you have max ranks in Concentration then at level 9 you've got 12 ranks plus your Con bonus, versus a DC 20 to cast 5th level spells defensively, so you should succeed on a roll of six or so. It will only get easier since you'll get two more ranks by the time you get one more spell level for a DC one point higher.

3. A Polar Bear has a swim speed, plus a bonus on hide checks in snow. For wild shaping, the swim speed alone makes it better than a Brown Bear. A Dire Lion or a Smilodon from Frostburn are also superb Wild Shape choices.

4. Generally your best choices for an animal companion would be a Fleshraker dinosaur in MM3 or a Dire Eagle in RoS, both of which are at 'level -3' so Natural Bond will allow you to count your full Druid level toward its benefits. If you already have a Brown Bear, then a Polar Bear wouldn't be an upgrade, since it will have the same HD but the animal companion benefits will give the Brown Bear higher stats and natural armor. If you want to improve your companion, use Handle Animal to give it the Warbeast template in the back of MM2. It requires a few weeks of training, but it's definitely worth it.

[Rumo]

I think I'd grab Improved Unarmed Strike before Multiattack: iterative unarmed strikes + secondary natural weapons works with all possible animals, while Multiattack only works with the animals that have multiple natural weapons.

Maybe it's my limited ability with English language, but I don't understand the Use of Improved Unarmed Strike for my Druid. When in Wild Shape I have natural weapons, so I'm not considered unarmed, right?


9th is also a good spot to take a reserve feat. I like Minor Shapeshift, but Summon Elemental is quite nifty.

Companion Spellbond (PHBII) or Great and Small (Complete Champion) could also be useful. It depends a lot on your play style.

Now this is highly interesting. I did not know of the existence of reserve feats at all. I do not see any kind of limitation there, can you just use them all day as often as you want? Summon little elementals all day? Does competence bonus to my summoning spells affect anything other than their duration?
And with Minor Shapeshift I can choose to be stronger and gain +2 on all damage rolls, until I get heavily wounded and temporarily add +level to my hit points? All of this looks incredibly strong to me.

[Rumo]

@sleepyphoenixx and Biffoniacus

Yes, you have convinced me that Steadfast Concentration would be a big waste. Especially since I have CON 17 and will soon invest in artifacts to make the number even. I was under the impression of a few occurences on lower levels, but as you said, there is Concentration gain of at least 4 while 1 spell level is gained.

I am aware that some saurian creatures are very strong choices, but with the exceptions of dragons (which without their magical abilities and breath attacks don't seem to be the best fighters) I just don't like them very much and prefer to keep it fluffy (bears and wolves) for awhile.

Regarding Dire Eagle, if I understand the rules correctly, there is this absurdity that I can only shape into a bird that is extremely large (like the medium sized Dire Eagle), because more regular birds are considered tiny and only available at level 11.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Regarding Dire Eagle, if I understand the rules correctly, there is this absurdity that I can only shape into a bird that is extremely large (like the medium sized Dire Eagle), because more regular birds are considered tiny and only available at level 11.

Dire Eagle is large size. Dire Hawk in MM2 is medium size, and only 5 HD, so you can turn into that as soon as you hit Druid 5.

[Segev]

Maybe it's my limited ability with English language, but I don't understand the Use of Improved Unarmed Strike for my Druid. When in Wild Shape I have natural weapons, so I'm not considered unarmed, right?

I believe they mean Improved Natural Attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#improvedNaturalAttack).

[Rumo]

I believe they mean Improved Natural Attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#improvedNaturalAttack).

Ah, that makes sense to me. I'd just be afraid to pick some type of attack that serves me only for a limited number of levels. For example I take claw, am happy until dire bear, and at level 15 I might want something of the bite and gore type.

[Rumo]

Dire Eagle is large size. Dire Hawk in MM2 is medium size, and only 5 HD, so you can turn into that as soon as you hit Druid 5.

Thank you, that's very good to know. (Next time when I play a Druid level <8 and need wings.)

[Andezzar]

4. Generally your best choices for an animal companion would be a Fleshraker dinosaur in MM3 or a Dire Eagle in RoS, both of which are at 'level -3' so Natural Bond will allow you to count your full Druid level toward its benefits. If you already have a Brown Bear, then a Polar Bear wouldn't be an upgrade, since it will have the same HD but the animal companion benefits will give the Brown Bear higher stats and natural armor. If you want to improve your companion, use Handle Animal to give it the Warbeast template in the back of MM2. It requires a few weeks of training, but it's definitely worth it.Natural bond cannot increase the effective druid level above the character's HD. So a single class druid would not benefit from it.

[Darrin]

I believe they mean Improved Natural Attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#improvedNaturalAttack).

No. Natural attacks do not get iterative attacks based on your BAB. Improved Unarmed Strike *does* give you iterative attacks based on your BAB, and you get them regardless of what form you're in, so even when you're in wild shape, you get one unarmed strike for every five points of BAB. This is often referred to as "Kung Fu Panda". When you use Improved Unarmed Strike this way, all the natural attacks in your animal form become secondary attacks (-5 attack penalty, 1/2 Str bonus). So if you spend a lot of time in melee while wild shaped into an animal, Improved Unarmed Strike can dramatically increase your number of attacks.

[Rumo]

No. Natural attacks do not get iterative attacks based on your BAB. Improved Unarmed Strike *does* give you iterative attacks based on your BAB, and you get them regardless of what form you're in, so even when you're in wild shape, you get one unarmed strike for every five points of BAB. This is often referred to as "Kung Fu Panda". When you use Improved Unarmed Strike this way, all the natural attacks in your animal form become secondary attacks (-5 attack penalty, 1/2 Str bonus). So if you spend a lot of time in melee while wild shaped into an animal, Improved Unarmed Strike can dramatically increase your number of attacks.

Thank you for the clarification. Sounds like a nice alternative to the two reserve feats.

[Rebel7284]

You can also take quicken spell. Useful if your 12th level feat is already accounted for with Dragon Wildshape.

As for Improved Unarmed strike, you know how a human can punch someone using an unarmed strike? A bear can do that too and THEN use claws. This is why people say to take Improved Unarmed Strike, so you can attack with punches and kicks like a monk and THEN claw, claw, bite. :)

[Pan151]

Maybe it's my limited ability with English language, but I don't understand the Use of Improved Unarmed Strike for my Druid. When in Wild Shape I have natural weapons, so I'm not considered unarmed, right?

You don't need to be unarmed in order to use unarmed attacks - when making a full attack, you can make all your unarmed attacks as primary attacks, and then all your weapon attacks as secondary attacks.

[Andezzar]

As a side note you can even use a two-handed weapon and Unarmed strike, but then you will be using the TWF rules. You do not need free hands to perform an Unarmed Strike. You can use any part of your body for that attack.

[Rumo]

Interesting, can that be applied to any Wild Shape and later elemental form? In that case, it sounds to me like there isn't much I could do wrong with Improved Unarmed Strike. Either now or on 12.

[Andezzar]

Interesting, can that be applied to any Wild Shape and later elemental form?Yes, an Unarmed Strike (whether improved or not) can be used with any and all other natural attacks. Without the feat however you have all the drawbacks of using an Unarmed Strike (non-lethal damage, provoke AoO).

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Natural bond cannot increase the effective druid level above the character's HD. So a single class druid would not benefit from it.

You can apply your own effects in the most beneficial order, so the more powerful companion's 'level -3' is applied first to reduce your effective druid level below your HD, then the +3 for Natural Bond is applied to bring it back up to equal your character level. It does work, he already has the feat and is using it this way, and this is not the place to discuss it.

[Andezzar]

You can apply your own effects in the most beneficial order, so the more powerful companion's 'level -3' is applied first to reduce your effective druid level below your HD, then the +3 for Natural Bond is applied to bring it back up to equal your character level. It does work, he already has the feat and is using it this way, and this is not the place to discuss it.When a druid chooses an animal companion other than those available at 1st level his effective druid level does not change. His druid level still is equal to his class level but to determine the abilities of such an animal companion you use a reduced value of that druid level. Only classes other than druid (like ranger) have an effective druid level.

[Gnaeus]

Of the Wild Shape feats Frozen Wild Shape (FB) probably has the most raw damage potential with the cryohydra. It's pretty much a one trick pony though (the other forms suck). It also comes very late because you need to be able to shift into huge forms.

I would call it a 2 trick pony. Urskan is a large form that can unquestionably talk, can unquestionably wield weapons and armor, has all humanoid magic slots, and has pretty good stats. As such it is a pretty solid choice for druids that don't want to walk around as animals or monsters all day.

With regards to Natural Bond increasing the animal companion for a character who is already full druid, and to Unarmed Strike working as advertized for a bear, talk to your DM. Many DMs will simply say no. I agree, the listed positions are probably RAW, but there are a lot of games where trying the kung-fu bear will get a book thrown at you.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Rather than Improved Unarmed Strike, get a Monk's Belt with a Wilding Clasp. You add your Wis bonus to AC with that, and you get the unarmed strike of a Monk 5, including the ability to use any body part to deliver it. A bear can use kicks, knees, etc. instead of punches, so there's not much room to argue that he can't combine his natural weapon attacks with it since the limb was not already used to deliver an unarmed strike.

[Andezzar]

The ability to use any part of the body for the unarmed strike is not part of the monk's belt or the monk class, any character can do that.

A Medium character deals 1d3 points of nonlethal damage with an unarmed strike, which may be a punch, kick, head butt, or other type of attack.

[Bronk]

As another side note, you can always make unarmed attacks, it's just that the Improved Unarmed Strike feat makes the damage lethal.

You can also make the damage lethal with the 'monk's belt' from the DMG or SRD, as well as the 'fanged ring' from Dragon Magic.

You can also give all of your natural weapons (including unarmed attacks) a magical enhancement bonus with the 'amulet of mighty fists', and do that plus add magical weapon properties with a 'necklace of natural attacks'.

[eggynack]

When a druid chooses an animal companion other than those available at 1st level his effective druid level does not change. His druid level still is equal to his class level but to determine the abilities of such an animal companion you use a reduced value of that druid level. Only classes other than druid (like ranger) have an effective druid level.
This doesn't seem accurate. First, the animal companion ability makes specific reference to something incredibly similar to effective druid level, stating, "If this adjustment would reduce the druid’s effective level to 0 or lower, she can’t have that animal as a companion." That's a pretty direct implication that we're dealing with effective druid level here.

Second, natural bond talks about the effective druid level for dealing with these specific things, and it specifically references page 36 of the PHB, heavily implying that when the feat talks about effective druid level, it's talking about where you are on that table. Yes, that is mostly to show the ability part, but effective druid level is part of the whole object.

Third, returning to your ranger based position, under the animal companion section for rangers, it is specifically stated that taking on a higher level animal companion represents a reduction in effective druid level. This means that the process that the ranger undergoes to hit his initial reduced effective druid level is the same as the process it undergoes to take higher leveled companions, and by extension, the same process the druid goes through.

Thus, as a result of these things, I think it's fair to say that druids do indeed have an effective druid level for the purposes of determining the abilities of their animal companion. It's not a thing directly stated, but it is a thing often indirectly stated, and in such a close manner that the distinction is pretty meaningless.

[Gnaeus]

Thus, as a result of these things, I think it's fair to say that druids do indeed have an effective druid level for the purposes of determining the abilities of their animal companion. It's not a thing directly stated, but it is a thing often indirectly stated, and in such a close manner that the distinction is pretty meaningless.

This isn't a RAW debate. Its a question regarding a particular game. The only one whose opinion matters here is the DM. Eggy certainly lists the correct arguments here. But all that needs to be said here is that some DMs will allow it, some won't. Check locally.

[Andezzar]

You might be right on the RAW there. On some occasions the book uses effective druid levels on others it doesn't. Anyways it's not like the bear summoning bears needs a better bear to ride on.

[eggynack]

This isn't a RAW debate. Its a question regarding a particular game. The only one whose opinion matters here is the DM. Eggy certainly lists the correct arguments here. But all that needs to be said here is that some DMs will allow it, some won't. Check locally.
I guess, but you could say that about just about anything suggested, and I think it's nice to have book support before bringing this before a DM.

You might be right on the RAW there. On some occasions the book uses effective druid levels on others it doesn't. Anyways it's not like the bear summoning bears needs a better bear to ride on.
I figure that if it's not natural bond, it'd probably be something else. Level 9 is pretty far up there, so companion spellbond is possibly actually better as animal companion feats go, and the ability of an animal companion to seriously contribute is beginning to fade a bit in the face of spells, summoning, large wild shape, and wild shape augmented by a form adding feat. Natural bond would seem a lot more broken if we weren't working off of the class with one of the most insanely powerful feat lists in the entire game.

Edit: Also, another point on the first thing, having solid RAW knowledge of this thing could theoretically not influence the opinion of a given DM, some of whom are possibly driven more by balance concerns than the rules, but it would certainly influence whether I'd even put the trick in front of the fellow in the first place. It doesn't really matter much if the DM is convinced or not if I'm still unconvinced.

[Gnaeus]

I guess, but you could say that about just about anything suggested, and I think it's nice to have book support before bringing this before a DM.

Not really. Natural bond working with full druid and imp unarmed strike as a bear are often debated. If you walked into my game and presented those arguments, my answer would be "Yes, that is probably RAW. It is clearly not RAI. Natural bond isn't supposed to work that way. Thats why the limit as to improving above druid level exists at all. Ask me again when you build a Ranger or Arcane Hierophant" As I said, your arguments are good ones regarding the RAW. But it is something that should not be assumed to be valid. Its clearly a grey area, or there wouldn't even be this discussion. We can't resolve it. Only the DM can.

[eggynack]

Not really. Natural bond working with full druid and imp unarmed strike as a bear are often debated. If you walked into my game and presented those arguments, my answer would be "Yes, that is probably RAW. It is clearly not RAI. Natural bond isn't supposed to work that way. Thats why the limit as to improving above druid level exists at all. Ask me again when you build a Ranger or Arcane Hierophant" As I said, your arguments are good ones regarding the RAW. But it is something that should not be assumed to be valid. Its clearly a grey area, or there wouldn't even be this discussion. We can't resolve it. Only the DM can.
My point, I think, is that without the RAW in place, you wouldn't even necessarily get to the RAI step. You're often going to need both, and you're sometimes just going to need the RAW, for such is occasionally the nature of things

[Ketiara]

Another flying form that is VERY GOOD especially with enhance wild shape is Desmondu hunting bat. It will give you good fly, 24dex and with enhance wild shape 120ft blind sense. You put a bite of the wear rat on it and it has 30dex... If you want to cast rangedtouch spells or splinterbolts or ice lances etc while controlling the battle at safe distance... This is the one for you. And it 5ish HD (not by my books)
Edit: and bite of the wear rat also gives you weapon finess feat so you can better hit with its trip attack of you have to go into melee.

[Talya]

Disclaimer: Answers in the FAQ are not RAW, but they can go a long way toward determining RAI on occasion.

With that In mind, the question of Natural Bond working with advanced companions was never asked in the FAQ, but the identical issue of Practiced Spellcaster and Wild Mage did come up. Here was the answer:


Does the bonus to caster level from the Practiced Spellcaster feat (from Complete Arcane and Complete Divine) apply before or after other caster level bonuses (such as those from the Good or Healing domains)?

The bonus from Practiced Spellcaster applies whenever it would be most beneficial to the caster. A 4th-level cleric/4th level fighter with the Healing domain and Practiced Spellcaster would cast Conjuration (Healing) spells as a 9th-level caster (base caster level 4th, +4 from Practiced Spellcaster, +1 from the Healing domain). A 4th-level cleric/4th-level rogue with Practiced Spellcaster who activates a bead of karma (from a strand of prayer beads) would cast her spells as a 12th-level caster (base 4, +4 from Practiced Spellcaster, +4 from bead of karma).

How does Practiced Spellcaster interact with the wild magic class feature of the wild mage (from Complete Arcane)?

The –3 penalty and +1d6 bonus to the wild mage’s caster level are applied as a single step in the process of determining the wild mage’s caster level. Since Practiced Spellcaster’s bonus is always applied when it is most beneficial to the character (see previous answer), a wild mage with Practiced Spellcaster would typically apply the wild magic class feature first (subtracting 3 and adding 1d6 to her caster level) and then add the Practiced Spellcaster benefit, up to a maximum value equal to her character level.

For example, if a 5th-level wizard/4th-level wild mage with Practiced Spellcaster rolled a 1 on the 1d6 bonus to her caster level, her caster level for that spell would be 9th (base 9th, –3 from wild magic penalty, +1 from wild magic bonus, +4 from Practiced Spellcaster up to a maximum equal to her character level). If she rolled a 6, her caster level would be 12th (base 9th, –3 from wild magic penalty, +6 from wild magic bonus; the Practiced Spellcaster bonus would not apply since it would increase her caster level above her character level).

On the other hand, imagine a wild mage whose caster level (before applying the effects of the wild magic class feature) is less than her character level, such as a wild mage with levels of rogue or other non-spellcasting class. She might well choose to apply the Practiced Spellcaster bonus first, before applying the wild magic modifiers. A rogue 4/wizard 5/wild mage 4 would have a base caster level of 9th before any other modifiers are applied. Adding Practiced Spellcaster’s bonus would increase this to 13th, at which point the penalty and bonus from wild magic would be applied. The Sage recommends that players averse to frequently recalculating caster level avoid playing a character with this combination, as it is likely to cause headaches.

Seems to me that using the same logic as practiced spellcaster (which works the same way as Natural Bond), it is absolutely intended for it to work with alternative companions. Considering that RAW already supports using Natural Bond to offset the penalty to effective druid level from stronger companions, this is kindof a nail in the coffin for the argument by way of RAI.

[Rumo]

Rather than Improved Unarmed Strike, get a Monk's Belt with a Wilding Clasp. You add your Wis bonus to AC with that, and you get the unarmed strike of a Monk 5, including the ability to use any body part to deliver it. A bear can use kicks, knees, etc. instead of punches, so there's not much room to argue that he can't combine his natural weapon attacks with it since the limb was not already used to deliver an unarmed strike.

Firstly my apologies, so much interesting input and I can only address this one right now, as I'm supposed to work during work time. I remember vaguely that a long time ago I had been considering Monk Belt very strongly, and then refrained from it as I'm going for the Beast Set (already have ring and mantle). Now I don't remember why this set and the belt don't go together. They do not share a body slot, as far as I can see, and right now I'm not aware of any other conflict. Something with overlapping bonuses maybe? My WIS is already huge, so the AC bonus would easily be worth the investment in the belt.

Regarding Natural Bond, I'm neither a natural speaker at English, nor at D&D, so it shouldn't come as a surprise that I don't understand this discussion. As far as I understand (and this is the premise under which I took the feat - possibly not the best decision in this Druid's life) what it does is no more and no less than add +3 on the Druid Animal Companion Class Levels table. Meaning for example that my biggest possible companions start with +2HD, +2 Natural Armor, +1STR/DEX, 2 Tricks, Evasion. Did I miss anything? Is there more to it?

[eggynack]

Firstly my apologies, so much interesting input and I can only address this one right now, as I'm supposed to work during work time. I remember vaguely that a long time ago I had been considering Monk Belt very strongly, and then refrained from it as I'm going for the Beast Set (already have ring and mantle). Now I don't remember why this set and the belt don't go together. They do not share a body slot, as far as I can see, and right now I'm not aware of any other conflict. Something with overlapping bonuses maybe? My WIS is already huge, so the AC bonus would easily be worth the investment in the belt.
I think the incompatibility you have found is that the armor of the beast is, y'know, armor, which interferes with the working of a monk's belt. My advice is to skip the armor, and just pick up the belt. The armor is mediocre at best, usually providing significantly worse AC in an overcosted fashion that doesn't interact well with luminous armor (if you're good), and the synergy bonus and ability are minor enough to not be worth the cost. It's a bit tragic that two items in a three item set are excellent, and that one is bad, but it is as it is.


Regarding Natural Bond, I'm neither a natural speaker at English, nor at D&D, so it shouldn't come as a surprise that I don't understand this discussion. As far as I understand (and this is the premise under which I took the feat - possibly not the best decision in this Druid's life) what it does is no more and no less than add +3 on the Druid Animal Companion Class Levels table. Meaning for example that my biggest possible companions start with +2HD, +2 Natural Armor, +1STR/DEX, 2 Tricks, Evasion. Did I miss anything? Is there more to it?
That is indeed the entirety of its impact, though it's a bigger impact than you're indicating, because it does all of the nifty things that BAB does, like sometimes add a feat (if you've crossed one of the HD feat borders), increase saves, and increase BAB. Natural bond is definitely one of the better feats for animal companion use, especially at early levels, where those bonuses are massive relative to what's already there.

The argument is whether the feat actually does that or not. You see, the feat only increases your effective druid level for the purposes of the animal companion if your effective druid level is less than your actual level. For example, if you were a high level druid with a standard riding dog, and you picked up natural bond, then the feat would do absolutely nothing, and that's a thing we all agree on. Thus, the question is whether picking up a higher level companion decreases your effective druid level for the purposes of the animal companion, and my claim is that it does.

[Rumo]

Bingo, that's it! And as the Armor of the Beast is a) the worst of all three parts, b) the only part that I don't have, and c) the most expensive of all parts, I agree that skipping it for the belt is a very good idea.

[Rumo]

Not really. Natural bond working with full druid and imp unarmed strike as a bear are often debated. If you walked into my game and presented those arguments, my answer would be "Yes, that is probably RAW. It is clearly not RAI. Natural bond isn't supposed to work that way. Thats why the limit as to improving above druid level exists at all. Ask me again when you build a Ranger or Arcane Hierophant" As I said, your arguments are good ones regarding the RAW. But it is something that should not be assumed to be valid. Its clearly a grey area, or there wouldn't even be this discussion. We can't resolve it. Only the DM can.

I understand why a DM might find the idea of a Kung-Fu fighting Bear or T-Rex outside the Disney universe to be ridiculous. But Natural Bond? Adding +3 on this table, and thus strenghtening the Druid's bond to his companion by one step is a very reasonable feat, and very far from being overpowered. Even if the rulemakers didn't intend it, I would think that such a well-balanced and game-enrichening feat should be included.

[eggynack]

I understand why a DM might find the idea of a Kung-Fu fighting Bear or T-Rex outside the Disney universe to be ridiculous. But Natural Bond? Adding +3 on this table, and thus strenghtening the Druid's bond to his companion by one step is a very reasonable feat, and very far from being overpowered. Even if the rulemakers didn't intend it, I would think that such a well-balanced and game-enrichening feat should be included.
Well, to be fair, there is this sort of odd clarifying horror to natural bond, bringing to light this thing that was almost obvious before, and just painfully glowing now. To explain what I'm talking about, look at level four. You're trying to optimize, so you pick up a fleshraker, a creature on that weird cusp where a relatively ordinary melee class either wins or loses in that neverending battle for melee competence, and where the fact that there's a battle at all is its own kind of horror. We're talking about a creature with just about all of the combat maneuvers, comparable AC, equal HD, poison, but probably lower damage, lower HP, and only a fraction of the gold. A core melee class needs to optimize to keep up, but they can likely keep up, at least if they're pulling from non-core sources for resources.

And then natural bond happens. All of those big advantages of the core melee class, and especially all of those places where there was once parity, are mostly gone. The fleshraker is now sporting 6 HD, 1.5 times as many as the melee character has, and they get a bunch of stat boosts to boot. The fleshraker was behind on BAB before. Now it's not at all. The melee character was likely sporting a strength advantage. Now he might not be. It's just a lot of stuff, especially at that level. Things get especially ridiculous if you add in exalted companion, allowing the fleshraker to take vow of poverty, and thus granting extra bonuses from the extra HD. Just consider, for a moment, how much that melee character would give to gain bonuses on this scale. Probably a lot.

Later, this stuff becomes less relevant. The animal companion's strength wanes around the same time as the melee fellow's does, and while spell support helps a lot, by that point you're relying less on those base statistical advantages anyway. The bonus from natural bond becomes relatively less, and everything else is quickly growing in power, causing this feat to fall behind by a decent amount. Never completely, because a pile of huge bonuses on your free fighter is always nice, but by more and more each passing level. Still, for that one shining moment, in that reasonably lengthy level range, natural bond highlights the absurdity that is this game's balance, and it looks fantastic for it.

[Rumo]

Thank you for the explanation. One more question, this time about Minor Shapeshift. Which seems just incredibly strong to me, and especially useful in a campaign that is rather focused on combat. Now the rule says that I need to have a Level 4 polymorph spell available. I am wondering: What exactly are polymorph spells? I know many transmutation spells that can be considered polymorphs, i.e. Enlarge/Reduce Person. But the only spells that I know for sure to be polymorphs are Polymorph, Greater Polymorph and Baleful Polymorph. As far as I can see none of them can be below level 4, so why does the book say P. spell of at least level 4?

[Gnaeus]

And then natural bond happens. All of those big advantages of the core melee class, and especially all of those places where there was once parity, are mostly gone. The fleshraker is now sporting 6 HD, 1.5 times as many as the melee character has, and they get a bunch of stat boosts to boot. The fleshraker was behind on BAB before. Now it's not at all. The melee character was likely sporting a strength advantage. Now he might not be. It's just a lot of stuff, especially at that level. Things get especially ridiculous if you add in exalted companion, allowing the fleshraker to take vow of poverty, and thus granting extra bonuses from the extra HD. Just consider, for a moment, how much that melee character would give to gain bonuses on this scale. Probably a lot..

And then assume that you have a small druid. Maybe a Gnome, since gnome is a good core race for druids. And its riding the Fleshraker. So the Fleshraker is sharing the druid's Barkskin, Bears Endurance and Produce Flame. So now it clearly outdamages most 4th level melee. It has higher AC. Better HP. Before you add in the druid's own not insignificant combat abilities.


The argument is whether the feat actually does that or not. You see, the feat only increases your effective druid level for the purposes of the animal companion if your effective druid level is less than your actual level. For example, if you were a high level druid with a standard riding dog, and you picked up natural bond, then the feat would do absolutely nothing, and that's a thing we all agree on.


This bonus can never make your effective druid level exceed your character level.

So the RAI question, especially in light of the above conversation, is "Why did they include that sentence at all?" If we assume that there was some reason why they included it in the feat (as you should when discussing rules intent), what was that reason? I think that the reason was that they did not want druids operating with animal companions that are that much more powerful than the druids normal companion, for a cost of one feat. So, if, as seems clear, they did not want to allow a wolf or riding dog to have an extra 2 HD, 2 NA, and some stat boosts because they presumably didn't want it to be stronger than a fighter. And if, as seems very clear, the Fleshraker (or other level 4 forms) is already stronger than would be an equivalently advanced wolf or riding dog, then why would it be OK to advance the Fleshraker when its unbalanced to advance the dog?

The other interpretation (which I support) on how the feat is supposed to work basically runs: Druids have a full animal companion, and for the first significant level range that companion is approximately equal to or even better than many muggles. But rangers have an animal companion that is laughably weak. And if the druid decides to multiclass, he is basically shooting his animal companion in the face, despite the fact that this choice is already strongly suboptimal for a class like Druid. So we make a feat to give Rangers a decent option for an Animal Companion, and to make multiclass druids a little less sub optimal (compared with normal druids) but we put in language to keep it from benefiting single class druids. Except they screwed up that last part by not being clear.

[Rumo]

I'd like to repeat my question, because it's rather important for my Druid. Rules for Minor Shapeshift: "As long as you have a polymorph spell of 4th level or higher available to cast, you can spend a swift action to grant yourself one of the following BENEFITS [...]"

The only Druid Polymorph spell that I'm aware of is Baleful Polymorph. So for my Druid this feat would say: "As long as you have Baleful P. ready to cast, you can spend a swift action [...]"

Correct?

[Gnaeus]

The only Druid Polymorph spell that I'm aware of is Baleful Polymorph. So for my Druid this feat would say: "As long as you have Baleful P. ready to cast, you can spend a swift action [...]"

Correct?

I think there are at least a few more.

Leaving aside the low level ones that let you turn into a fish, wolf, or bird, because they are too low level for the feat, I'm sure its at least:

Shapechange and Animal Shapes (because they came before the polymorph subschool was created and they reference Polymorph)

It should also include Aspect of the Earth hunter, because most of the other aspect and form of spells are polymorph subschool, but I don't think the tag is there, so ask your DM.