Tactician Help

[Sayt]

Hello all!

I've recently been invited to a new game, starting at level 4. The party already consists of at least of a barbarian, monk, 'warrior' (Guessing fighter or ranger), cleric, oracle, Magus and Inquisitor. (There are a fluctuating number of players, and there's a co-GM so we might be splitting into subgroups.

Now, generally I play some flavour of face-breaker, but melee damage dealing seems to be quite well accounted for. So I thought I'd either go into ranged combat, or, be a force multiplier, and in the end I decided to go with force multiplication/support. Now, Wizards can do this, but I'm playing one in another game. Bard is fairly traditional for this kind of role, but I can't get the image of a dissolute, lute-strumming fop out of my head.

So I figured I might try my hand at a Tactician. Unfortunately, I'm quite new at Psionics, so I have no idea what's good and what isn't.

I'd like to go pseudo-gish, but I don't think I have the feats or BAB, and I don't know if my stats will bear that out (Ability generation is three arrays of six lots of 4d6b3, with a free mulligan of one of the arrays).

For feats, unless I get nice enough stats for an archer-tactician, I'd probably get Improved Initiative and Psicystal Affinity. if I do get the stats, I'll probably go Improved Initiative, Expanded Knowledge (Offensive Precognition) and Power Attack

As for Power Selection, I'm thinking Circumstance Shield, Entangling Ectoplasm, Co-ordinate as One and Psychic Bodyguard.

Am I on track? And I plunging down a gully? Does anyone have suggestions?

[Slithery D]

It doesn't make any sense to get a Psicrystal unless you're going to take Vigor and Share Pain as powers. You only have Share Pain on your class list, so I'm not sure whether it's worth it, but you can use it to help tank and stand in melee next to your other party beatsticks. Expect to lose your Psicrystal for a day if you take a beating, though.

For party buffs coordinate as one isn't bad, but until you get some levels so that it lasts several rounds and you can use the Network/Spirity of Many multi buff on everyone in your collective I'd probably do Inevitable Strike instead. Give one guy a one round big bonus rather than give one guy a short, weak bonus. Never mind, I forgot you can't do non-Network personal powers on a collective. That's what makes the Vitalist medic powers so great.

For strategies at level 4 and 7, pick something that helps in melee given you want to mix it up and you have several melee party members to synch with. Some thoughts in rank order:

1. Focus Attack is I think the best when you have multiple people who are going to whale on the same enemy; seems applicable to your party setup. Everyone gets a free 1d6 damage for one round against the designated enemy, and it slowly scales as you gain levels.

2. Coordinated Distraction can be good for a rogue buddy to get flanking, which you don't have, but you can use it to get an immediate attack with flanking bonsuses of your own on a party members' turn against the same enemy.

3. Directed Assault does the same thing (get an immediate attack when your buddy attacks), but you lose the flank and gain the ability to attack someone different than your buddy; more flexible, less effective. You probably want to concentrate on the same enemy. But maybe not.

4. Into the Fray can be an quasi-pounce opener for you once you have extra attacks. Direct party member to charge, you get to charge as an immediate action, then you're in position for a full attack on your next turn. If initiative order is right, it basically is a (delayed) pounce that lets you charge w/single attack, immediately followed by a full attack. I'd say this is your level 8 strategy, one of the above is your probable level 4.

5. Guard Target is a bit niche, but can be used to save someone weak or about to die in melee if you have a team mate willing to take the hits for them. Synergizes well if a team mate has Combat Reflexes and lots of armor and HP.

6. Telempathic Resistance: Give your party a slight boost to saving throws. Maybe worth it if your Charisma is high enough for it to last, but I prefer this one a Tactitian who is focusing on manifesting, not a Gish. Good choice for a later fill in strategy.

Don't do Collective Defenses, Coordinated Maneuvers, or Hold Position. They aren't awful, but you can do better. Distracting Gaze is hilariously bad.

For higher level required strategies, Disruptive Terrain is good (take it at 10) and Reposition is amazing (free 5 foot steps for everyone!).

I'd take Focus Attack (4), Into the Fray (7), Disruptive Terrain (10), Reposition (13), and whatever you want at 16 and 19.

As far as feats go, you do get a bonus Teamwork feat at level 6 that you can swap out with an hour of meditation and that you can share with a free action with anyone in your collective. There's plenty that will give you a slight edge if you're fighting adjacent to your party.

[Sayt]

Thanks for the help.

Psicrystal idea was to get the 'spare' focus, but you're probably right.

I might pick up Shared Power to share around stuff like Inevitable Strike.

I missed the bit where Focused Attack gives the extra d6 to everyone else, not the directed ally.

My plan for the Teamwork feats are Outflank and Tandem Trip, not sure about the third one.

[caimbuel]

As strange as it sounds I would probably suggest Vitalist with this group, they can buff whole group easily with their network, they also can turn channel of your allies from MEH to AWESOME. And if you do split they may need this. A sadist Life leach is flat awesome if you can squeeze it past your DM. Turning enemies into HP batteries is tons of fun.

As a Tactician it really depends on your group. Depending on the campaign the Fear Projector can be fun for the status effects it can dish out, but may be a little devilish for some. And I would try everything I could to turn my Tactician into a thrallherd. YMMV but either should be a blast.

[Slithery D]

I actually agree that Vitalist is probably better for improving your party. The concept of the Tactitian is nice, but I've never felt like the powers and strategies do enough until high level when you can pull some great Shenanigans like sharing an Astral Construct IX's strength and BAB with a bunch of front line fighters.

For low to mid levels Vitalist medic power buffs are going to be more helpful.

[Slipperychicken]

Bard is fairly traditional for this kind of role, but I can't get the image of a dissolute, lute-strumming fop out of my head.

Easy. Take Perform(Oratory). Find a list of badass one-liners and declare them when you cast spells or Inspire Courage. Act like a commander. You can get Perform(Comedy) and have cynical, dry wit. You don't need to ever touch a lute to be a Bard.


And two notes:

1. This party is badly in need of noncombat skills, or rather in need to make sure all the bases are covered without excessive redundancy. It goes without saying that a Bard or Oracle could cover social skills. If the DM allows knowledge to work as intended (most creatures are 10+CR to identify strengths and weaknesses), I'd try to coordinate with the other players (particularly the spellcasters) so that the party has all 10 Knowledge skills covered (11 if Knowledge(psionics) is a thing). With all that Wisdom being thrown around, there should also be ranks in Survival and Heal, and I have no doubt Sense Motive will be quite strong. As always, someone should be able to get past locks and traps, and everyone should put at least a few points into Perception. It's pretty embarrassing for a team of 7 heroes to be completely stumped by a locked door. The melees don't have much to do with their skills, so maybe they can sprinkle their skillpoints around

2. With so many divine spellcasters, you also want to make sure their spell selection isn't stepping on each others' toes too much. For instance, you might not always need 4 guys with Create Water prepared. And obviously the other guys don't need to prepare detect alignment spells with an Inquisitor on the team.

[Psyren]

It doesn't make any sense to get a Psicrystal unless you're going to take Vigor and Share Pain as powers. You only have Share Pain on your class list, so I'm not sure whether it's worth it, but you can use it to help tank and stand in melee next to your other party beatsticks. Expect to lose your Psicrystal for a day if you take a beating, though.

For starters, Vigor is very much worth it for any manifesting class that is going to be in melee; second of all, psicrystals have many uses besides that. They can boost important skills like Perception and Acrobatics, they can boost concentration checks and saving throws, and you can share many other useful powers with them like Energy Conversion and Touchsight. They also function as point-to-point communicators for the party scout - e.g. drop him into the rogue's pocket and now he can relay everything the rogue is seeing directly to your mind, 1 mile away, without making a sound. The psicrystal itself can also scout for you, or simply be left in a room to eavesdrop.

If you don't want one though, you can get the spare focus without it - just take the Deep Focus feat instead.

[Sayt]

For starters, Vigor is very much worth it for any manifesting class that is going to be in melee; second of all, psicrystals have many uses besides that. They can boost important skills like Perception and Acrobatics, they can boost concentration checks and saving throws, and you can share many other useful powers with them like Energy Conversion and Touchsight. They also function as point-to-point communicators for the party scout - e.g. drop him into the rogue's pocket and now he can relay everything the rogue is seeing directly to your mind, 1 mile away, without making a sound. The psicrystal itself can also scout for you, or simply be left in a room to eavesdrop.

If you don't want one though, you can get the spare focus without it - just take the Deep Focus feat instead.

I can't actually find the Deep focus feat on DNDtools or PFSRD, what's the source?


Easy. Take Perform(Oratory). Find a list of badass one-liners and declare them when you cast spells or Inspire Courage. Act like a commander. You can get Perform(Comedy) and have cynical, dry wit. You don't need to ever touch a lute to be a Bard.


And two notes:

1. This party is badly in need of noncombat skills, or rather in need to make sure all the bases are covered without excessive redundancy. It goes without saying that a Bard or Oracle could cover social skills. If the DM allows knowledge to work as intended (most creatures are 10+CR to identify strengths and weaknesses), I'd try to coordinate with the other players (particularly the spellcasters) so that the party has all 10 Knowledge skills covered (11 if Knowledge(psionics) is a thing). With all that Wisdom being thrown around, there should also be ranks in Survival and Heal, and I have no doubt Sense Motive will be quite strong. As always, someone should be able to get past locks and traps, and everyone should put at least a few points into Perception. It's pretty embarrassing for a team of 7 heroes to be completely stumped by a locked door. The melees don't have much to do with their skills, so maybe they can sprinkle their skillpoints around

2. With so many divine spellcasters, you also want to make sure their spell selection isn't stepping on each others' toes too much. For instance, you might not always need 4 guys with Create Water prepared. And obviously the other guys don't need to prepare detect alignment spells with an Inquisitor on the team.

I'm aware of my mental image of a bawrd is kinda reductive, but it's stuck in my head unfortunately.
1, 2) Yeah, that's part of the reason I decided to go Tactican. I generally like divine casters, but that role is well filled. Part of the reason I settled on the Tactican is the int focus, and the ability to buff. Also, waht kinda of barbarian is topped by (an ordinary) locked door?


As strange as it sounds I would probably suggest Vitalist with this group, they can buff whole group easily with their network, they also can turn channel of your allies from MEH to AWESOME. And if you do split they may need this. A sadist Life leach is flat awesome if you can squeeze it past your DM. Turning enemies into HP batteries is tons of fun.

As a Tactician it really depends on your group. Depending on the campaign the Fear Projector can be fun for the status effects it can dish out, but may be a little devilish for some. And I would try everything I could to turn my Tactician into a thrallherd. YMMV but either should be a blast.

Given the Cleric is somehow focusing on channel/LOH (They were non-specific how. Group is partly composed of newbies and more experienced players), I felt Vitalist's healing focus was uneccesary, though quite powerful. On the other hand, their capacity to buff their comrades as somewhat...anemic, am I missing something?

From my stat generation, the best array was some variation of 11, 12, 13, 14, 14, 15, pre-racial mods, which is making me think a more casting focused Tactician might be for the best. So I'm considering Human or Elan, and putting the +2 in int. Improved Initative at 1, Expanded knjowedge (Offenseive precog) at 3 and Network Power at 5.

On the other hand, if the Homebrew race I concocted from the ACG is approved (Game starts tomorrow, still waiting~), I might be able to pull off melee tactician.

[Psyren]

I can't actually find the Deep focus feat on DNDtools or PFSRD, what's the source?

Ultimate Psionics pg. 97. It probably wasn't uploaded yet.

The book is OGL so I'll just post it here.


Deep Focus (Psionic)

You have learned to focus your subconscious mind
even while awake.

Prerequisites: Psionic Body, Autohypnosis 4 ranks.

Benefit: You can psionically focus your subconscious
in the same manner in which you gain psionic focus
normally. At any time when you need to expend your
psionic focus, you can expend your subconscious’s
psionic focus instead. At any time when you need
to maintain psionic focus for an effect, you can use
your subconscious’s psionic focus instead. Psionically
focusing your subconscious works just like focusing
your conscious mind.

Special: You cannot benefit from both Psicrystal
Containment and Deep Focus at the same time. If you
have both feats, you may only have your psicrystal or
your subconscious maintaining psionic focus at any
given time.

[JusticeZero]

Yeah, I don't know; i've been hoping to find a guide on how Tacticians actually work in practice, but that and the Dread are guides nobody seems to want to write.

[inertia709]

Yeah, I don't know; i've been hoping to find a guide on how Tacticians actually work in practice, but that and the Dread are guides nobody seems to want to write.

I'll just leave this here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?228324-PF-The-Chess-Master-A-Tactical-Guide-to-the-Tactician)

Edit: I just noticed that the guide is very incomplete. For some reason I thought I remembered reading it and it being complete. That's a pity.

[Slipperychicken]

Also, waht kinda of barbarian is topped by (an ordinary) locked door?


The kind who doesn't want to make too much noise, or take too much time getting through it.

[Slithery D]

For starters, Vigor is very much worth it for any manifesting class that is going to be in melee; second of all, psicrystals have many uses besides that. They can boost important skills like Perception and Acrobatics, they can boost concentration checks and saving throws, and you can share many other useful powers with them like Energy Conversion and Touchsight. They also function as point-to-point communicators for the party scout - e.g. drop him into the rogue's pocket and now he can relay everything the rogue is seeing directly to your mind, 1 mile away, without making a sound. The psicrystal itself can also scout for you, or simply be left in a room to eavesdrop.

If you don't want one though, you can get the spare focus without it - just take the Deep Focus feat instead.

Vigor's not on his powers list, and neither are most of the other good sharing powers. My advice is in context of him wanting to Gish and mix it up in melee and being worried about feat starvation.

I don't think an extra focus is of much use early on, he's rarely going to need to expend it unless he moves away from Gishing with metapisonic feats (enhancing what useful powers, exactly?) or goes deep in some of the offensive pisonic powers like Deep Impact. But if he wants an extra feat I would get it through a psicrystal, not (shudder) a Psionic Body tax.

[Psyren]

Vigor's not on his powers list, and neither are most of the other good sharing powers.

That's what Expanded Knowledge / Unlocked Talent are for.

Really, there is no reason to skip Vigor if you plan on being in melee at all (and even some non-melee may want it.)


But if he wants an extra feat I would get it through a psicrystal, not (shudder) a Psionic Body tax.

On this we agree.

[Slithery D]

OP, after looking into some other stuff I think the Metamorph sideline I discussed here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17895321&postcount=36) has some merit. Pickup Metamorphosis via a feat at level 7, get Improved Metamorphis feat at level 9, enter at level 10.
Your strategies don't advance, but this prestige class gives you lots of combat options, self healing, and later on some fantastic immunities. You can boost your collective abilities up to character level with a later feat, if necessary.

[Sayt]

Ultimate Psionics pg. 97. It probably wasn't uploaded yet.

The book is OGL so I'll just post it here.

That's pretty cool. Picked up Ultimate Psionics PDF, I figure if I'm gonna be playing a Psionic character I should give 'em /some/ money.


The kind who doesn't want to make too much noise, or take too much time getting through it.

Again, whatkKinda Barbarian? :smalltongue:


OP, after looking into some other stuff I think the Metamorph sideline I discussed here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17895321&postcount=36) has some merit. Pickup Metamorphosis via a feat at level 7, get Improved Metamorphis feat at level 9, enter at level 10.
Your strategies don't advance, but this prestige class gives you lots of combat options, self healing, and later on some fantastic immunities. You can boost your collective abilities up to character level with a later feat, if necessary.

Certainly looks like an interesting option, I'm not hugely sure it's where this character wants to go.

My other idea, for the short term (and because the Tactican is 3/4 BAB), is to pick up Psionic Weapon at level 1, Power Attack at 3, and Psionic Meditaion at 5, Swing with Inevitable strike and power attack, as well as blowing focus on Psionic Weapon, and then five footing back to regain focus as a move action.

This weeks game got rain-checked, but the homebrew Race got approved, so the Character's stats are Str 18, Dex 11, Con 16, Int 16, Wis 13, Cha 12.

Though to be honest, as I try to build it, the Tactician is becoming less and less enamoring. It's power list and teamwork feats hint that it's supposed to go into melee, but it doesn't really have the feat support to do so?

[Slithery D]

Though to be honest, as I try to build it, the Tactician is becoming less and less enamoring. It's power list and teamwork feats hint that it's supposed to go into melee, but it doesn't really have the feat support to do so?

I think it's supposed to contribute to melee, but not actually be very good at it. The powers and strategies enhance your team mates more than they help you. It's definitely a team force multiplier, not necessarily that effective on its own.

So if you want to kill guys yourself, not so much. But if your team will use tactics to allow you to best support them, you can twirl your mustache and brag, "I love it when a plan comes together," Hannibal from the A-team style.

[caimbuel]

Given the Cleric is somehow focusing on channel/LOH (They were non-specific how. Group is partly composed of newbies and more experienced players), I felt Vitalist's healing focus was unnecessary, though quite powerful. On the other hand, their capacity to buff their comrades as somewhat...anemic, am I missing something?

Imagine the cleric channels 4d6 to 6 people, all in vitalists collective, now thats 24d6 that goes point by point to who you want. Turns the meh 4d6 to life saving. Now take +3NA and for 1 point more you add 1 more target. And buff range is by collective, or medium range most of your career. To add to the fun, getting a CL+Wis mod as range touch damage that heals group, pin ping things to death all day long as space saver.

You won't be the most OP person, but you can take newbies and protect them out the wazzoo.

All this changes if you go the sadist route, making mobs join your collective and them using them as hp batteries, enuf to make BBEG cry as more bodies no longer is as much help.

YMMV