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Yahzi
2007-03-04, 01:05 PM
Build me an army!
(Edited...many corrections thanks to many people)

Goal: To create believable, cost-effective, balanced armies for DMs to use in their worlds. Also, to demonstrate that PC classes make armies irrelevant, since nothing you build with the following rules can defend itself against a party of six 7th level characters (which is roughly the same amount total of XP/GP).

Rules: Preferably using Core, but one or two splats would be ok for flavor. Don't forget to post tactics. The idea is to create whole baronies that DMs can drop into their world

Assets:
1 9th level ruler (any class)
1 medium castle
400 square mile barony (20x20 miles, which is density of 50 people/mile)
5,000 townspeople
15,000 peasants

Budget:
Capital: 1,000,000 gp to build your army.
Support: 100,000 gp a year to support it.
(If you like you can trade 20 gp of capital for 1 gp of support, or vice versa)
Manpower: Maximum of 500 full-time soldiers and 5,000 militia. The militia can only be used for defense of the castle/town walls. Expect to deploy them for 20 days a year or less.

Weapons and Armor: All prices are per the book (retail price for all items, even if you make them yourself - this is about measuring total resources expended). 100 arrows/bolts will be sufficient for archers. Other ordinary equipment repair is already abstracted out (but not magic expendables - see later).

Food: Assume 50 gp a year per man. This assumes 3 common meals a day at 1/2 the book rate because you buy in bulk. For this price you don't have to worry about hiring cooks, servants, etc, since that is part of the price. Since they live in your castle, you don't have to pay rent either.

Horses cost 25 gp a year to feed.

Training and Salary: 1st level commoners are free. You can pay them as little as 1 sp a day plus food.

Training them to 1st level of an NPC class costs 100 gp. Training them to the 1st level of a PC class costs 1,000 gp. After that, it costs 5 gp per XP to buy them levels. The highest level you can hire is 8th (one lower than your ruler).

You can pay 1st-3rd level NPC classes 2 sp * level * day. You have to pay PC classes 1 gp * level * day - but you don't have to feed them (they will buy their own food out of their salary).

Treat Level Adjustments as levels for these prices.

Ruler: Your ruler lives off the non-military budget. If you want to equip your ruler, you can assume the standard 36,000 gp WBL for a 9th level character. Assume your ruler has Leadership, which the DM has ruled is fulfilled by being able to hire an army in the first place (so you don't get any free followers).

Magic Items: You cannot buy any magic item or spell that is beyond an 11th caster's ability. Permanent magic items come out of your Capital budget. Scrolls, Potions, Wands, and other consumables come out of your Support budget. Assume you need 4 battles a year, so that means you need to pay for 4 alchemical items, 4 potions, 4 scrolls, or 1 wand per year.

Logistics: For bonus points, figure out how to transport 60 lbs of food per man and 300 lbs of grain per horse for a month-long campaign in the field. Don't worry about water: medieval armies marched from water-hole to water-hole. Or you could just by a Decanter of Endless Water.

Rank..........................Buy...Support
1st Commoner................0............0
(Militia/Part time: 20 days a year)
1st Commoner................0...........75
(Full time)
1st NPC class..............100.........125
2nd NPC class...........5,000.........200
3rd NPC class..........15,000.........275
1st PC Class.............1,000.........250
2nd PC Class............5,000.........500
3rd PC Class...........15,000.........750
4th PC Class...........30,000......1,000
5th PC Class...........50,000......1,250
6th PC Class...........75,000......1,500
7th PC Class.........105,000......1,750
8th PC Class.........140,000......2,000

Riding Horse..................75.........25
Light War Horse...........150.........25
Heavy War Horse.........400.........25



I will collect up the best armies and try to post them in a common format, for easy reference.

Have fun!

martyboy74
2007-03-04, 01:10 PM
What are we trying to defend this against? Presumably this isn't just a standing army? How much time? Population density? Terrain? Weather? Climate? Flesh this scenario out a bit, please.

Yahzi
2007-03-04, 01:22 PM
What are we trying to defend this against? Presumably this isn't just a standing army? How much time? Population density? Terrain? Weather? Climate? Flesh this scenario out a bit, please.
Yes, it is a standing army. The idea is to find out what normal, general purpose armies look like (an outgrowth of that metastized thread "Do PCs make armies irrelevant").

You're defending your barony against... everybody else's army! Plus wandering monsters, robbers, usurpers, and of course, all those bloody adventurers!

:smallbiggrin:

Density can be worked out from the stats given. Terrain, climate, typical weather patterns are your choice (as long as they're reasonable).

Rama_Lei
2007-03-04, 02:00 PM
Well obvious choices are bards and clerics.

Sergeantbrother
2007-03-04, 02:23 PM
I think barbarians would be good for the 1st level soldiers in the army. Lots of hit points, the ability to rage, fast movement. A fair number of clerics too, to heal and buff. And bards of course to inspire the soldiers. I guess it would be best to make the high level characters magic users - to have some artilery.

Maybe I'll do the specifics later. Is there any limitation on race, are all of the subjects human?

I think that maybe the most fun way to approach this is not to make the most powerful army possible but to make a themed army that is still effective. Let me think on it a bit.

marjan
2007-03-04, 02:45 PM
You can use Complete Warior. There are some ideas how to make army and also about tactics. Except for ideas you don't go much out of core.

Emperor Tippy
2007-03-04, 03:11 PM
Option Number 1
Hire a level 20 wizard to cast Greater Dragon Ally 10 times (costs 4,300 GP per casting for a total cost of 43,000 GP). You have to pay each one of the dragons 22,000 GP (total cost 220,000 GP) but you can give them the job of obeying all of your orders into perpetuity.

Now you have ten 22-HD dragons (you choose the colors) who will obey you in anything for ever and ever.

Total Cost: 263,000 GP with no upkeep ever needed.

Option number 2 (which keeps more with what the OP wanted)
10,000 of the peasants will be the armies troops. Equip each one with a heavy crossbow (500,000 GP) and 100 Bolts (100,000 GP). Give each one leather armor (100,000 GP).

There is your army. 10,000 men with heavy crossbows in leather armor.

Upkeep costs are non existent as you can keep them all at home farming when not actually at war (and then it costs roughly 10,000 GP per day to keep them fed and healthy). This army will decimate pretty much anything as every soldier does 1d10 damage (enough to kill a level 1 commoner in 1-2 hits on average) and you can have them target a specific square (or squares) so you never actually have to hit any high AC targets AC.

I have 300,000 GP left so I will get 100 level 1 sorcerers who know sleep and color spray.

Now I can (in 2 rounds) knock out up to 800 enemy soldiers (DC 11+Cha mod will save) in 1 battle.


Oh and you upkeep costs are messed up. 500 GP per year per level of the solider? I hope you only mean PC class levels. Food costs (assuming a 365 day year) 182.5 GP per year per solider. Assuming the soldiers are paid a silver per day (high) then it comes to 36.5 GP per year for salary. Hell lets raise it to 50 GP per year and assume that other expenses are also covered in it. Total cost is 232.5 GP per solider per year.

Mewtarthio
2007-03-04, 03:21 PM
Support costs (pay, food, etc.) for all soldiers is 500 gp per level per year (your ruler is free). However, recharging magic wands/potions/scrolls have to be accounted for: assume 4 battles per year, and assume a wand (50 charges) or a single potion/scroll is good for 1 battle.

Okay, this automatically caps us at 200 soldiers maximum (permanent items only, in this case). I'd be a bit more lenient with the support of the expendables: It's not as though every single expendable item in your entire army will be expended every battle.

Let's go with a communistic people's army motif: Everyone is equal, and we want as many troops as possible.

Anyway, let's assume that we decide to max out our manpower. Obviously, we can't spend all our gold on maxxing out troops, since one million gold buys us 400 troops (twice what we can support, unless they all die halfway through the year). This leaves us half a million gold to spend on whatever else we please. In a communistic regime, that's 2500 gold per soldier. There are no officers, since even second-level training requires another 50,000 gold that we don't have. In essence, we've got 200 first-level soldiers running around with 2500 gp of permanent magic items. That's enough for each soldier to have a single +1 weapon, or maybe a Ring of Sustenance if we don't want to feed them (not that it'll free up any cash: We may pay less upkeep, but we can no longer afford to buy those expendables anyway). In essence, we get 200 first-level fighters who can overcome DR/magic but not much else. Not too impressive.

Let's go the opposite route and have a select few elite guys loaded down with expendables.

We've basically decided to keep our upkeep at maximum. If we've got just the ruler himself and his massive horde of expendables, that's 25,000 gp of expendables right there, and 975,000 gp of permanent items (or extra levels, should we ever hire more soldiers). Our ruler is now quite comfortable with his various epic-level items, but he won't be able to do much of anything to protect his people.

Each soldier we add reduces the amount of expendables we can buy initially by 125 gp and the amount of permanents by 2500 (unless we leave them as commoners, but what's the point of that?). However, as the expendable budget is reduced, we can increase the permanent budget by 2000 (the price of an expendable item that has the same upkeep as a soldier), so the permanent budget is effectively reduced only by 500. If you want average items per solider (where t is the number of troops), we get:

Expendables:
(25,000 - 125t)/t = 25,000/t - 125

Permanent:
(975,000 - 500t)/t = 975,000/t - 500

Good luck!

I_Got_This_Name
2007-03-04, 03:22 PM
I'd put all that money in the bank and save it to hire adventurers, since I'll only get a standing army 400 strong, of 1st-level (admittedly PC-class) fodder, from the funds I have. Additionally, they'll be unarmed and naked.

Alternately, just get four 10th-level PC-class characters. Possibly bump the wizard up to 11th. Upkeep of 5,000 apiece, so 20,000. Back them up with peasant conscripts to enforce order, and maybe drop them a few levels to get some 1st-level troops to hold areas and stand watch, calling in the big guns when needed.

Possibly just use a 13th-level wizard instead of an adventuring party.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-03-04, 03:26 PM
I suggest splitting your forces up into different divisions so that you can meet different forms of problems that may arise on the battlefield. Technically all you really need is a bunch of casters if you just want to be cheap, but what fun is that? Plus, that's provided that you don't take into account demographics, as I'd at least assume that it would be very difficult to assemble that many casters.

In my Tripartite army that I used once in a campaign, everything was split into threes. At the most basic levels, there were infantry, archers, and cavalry. The infantry was made up of (nixing the various fine-tuning with prestige classes I did) barbarians (shields, front liners), fighters (spears, second liners), and warmages (spells, back liners). The archery division was made up entirely of rangers who rode into the fray on battle chariots (mostly-closed off tops with sniping holes) and their animal companion/feats determined which role they played per group (horses were responsible for mobility, hounds were responsible for defense, and hawks were the leaders and scouts). Finally, the cavalry division was made up of paladin/clerics (heals on celestial wheels), sorcerers (mobile magic blasters), and barbarian/fighters (the ones that most often actually did cavalry charges).

I'm not sure if it works by your rules here, but it took me in my game 65 mil gold pieces to raise an army of ten thousand level 10 troops like that. The thing I liked most was that it was highly varied and I had just as much fun creating proper fluff for this army, even going so far as to invent an NPC with the DM's permission that was supposedly responsible for creating this army structure.

kellandros
2007-03-04, 03:36 PM
Crossbows are always a good pick for inexperienced troops. Range means they don't have to keep a line against armored knights, more of them can attack the same target(and more likely someone is going to hit then). I'd double the number of bolts per soldier(another 100,000GP by your estimate), to make sure you won't run out.

Without any knowledge of what to face, this is probably the most flexible plan you can come up with. Just make sure most of those troops have some sort of backup melee weapon, in case a few manage to make it up to the line of crossbowmen. Don't need anything fancy, probably spears.

Just watch out for heavy calvary- highly armored plus fast move means fewer arrows will actually hit and they have to face fewer volleys.

Illiterate Scribe
2007-03-04, 03:49 PM
Don't bother with crossbows, just take some almighty horde (alright, 400) of warlocks!

With eldritch spear, they will be long range eldritch blasters - no equipment needed! You could send them in to mingle in with the population of a city, then wham, suddenly they've taken on average 100 town guards in a single turn. Few towns would have more than that.

Emperor Tippy
2007-03-04, 03:53 PM
Without any knowledge of what to face, this is probably the most flexible plan you can come up with. Just make sure most of those troops have some sort of backup melee weapon, in case a few manage to make it up to the line of crossbowmen. Don't need anything fancy, probably spears.
Spears are to expensive. Quarterstaff's and Clubs for all. :smallbiggrin:

Besides, they can shoot the people who get to close. Keep the front line of crossbowmen with the job of shooting anything that gets to close. The other lines volley at the baddies.


Just watch out for heavy calvary- highly armored plus fast move means fewer arrows will actually hit and they have to face fewer volleys.Remember, you don't have to hit the guys AC just his square with a volley. And 10,000 guys at 20 guys targeting each square is 500 squares that can be targeted.

But yes, calvary is the biggest threat. Thats what you have the sorcerers for. They can be spread out every 15 feet along the line and protect 1500 feet of line against the calvary charge.

The just ready an action to cast sleep when the baddies get within about 20 feet. Both the horses and the riders have to make the save.


Don't bother with crossbows, just take some almighty horde (alright, 400) of warlocks!

With eldritch spear, they will be long range eldritch blasters - no equipment needed! You could send them in to mingle in with the population of a city, then wham, suddenly they've taken on average 100 town guards in a single turn. Few towns would have more than that.

Put them against an army in the field. They will lose quickly as they can only do 1 attack per turn and there are only 400 of them. Lets assume that they kill 400 different guys in 1 turn. Now how do they deal with the 9,600 Crossbow Bolts targeted at them? That is 24 bolts per warlock. Assume half hit and they do average damage. That is 60 damage per warlock.

Collin152
2007-03-04, 04:15 PM
Who buys equipment? Get your peseants to craft their own spears, consarnit!

Emperor Tippy
2007-03-04, 04:25 PM
Your better off with an Command Word item of fabricate, a Command Word of Wall of Wood and a Command Word of Wall of Iron. Get a guy with a +20 or so to the relevant craft skills and you can turn out unlimited masterwork Crossbows, Masterwork Full Plate, and Masterwork Bolts (along with most other weapons in the PHB) for free.

Those 3 items cost 180,000 GP (Fabricate), 216,000 (Wall of Iron), and about the same for the wall of wood item (can't look up the spell elvel at the moment). Now you can sell some of the tiems you makes and these items will pay for them self in about a day. Another day to equip every single person in your nation in masterwork full plate and with masterwork crossbows.

Collin152
2007-03-04, 04:34 PM
Also, note that you don't hire your own people, typically. Those peasents? Your pawns.
On another note...
Dont Warlocks have an invocation that acts like Entropic Shield?

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-03-04, 04:40 PM
Actually, this might be the one time the warlock is a decent class. Their blast is typically useless, but in large numbers? And without any cost to use besides training the NPC's?

Emperor Tippy
2007-03-04, 04:41 PM
Not that they can get at level 1 (as far as I know). And considering reaching level 2 costs 50,000 GP per person and level 3 requires 200,000 GP per person its unlikely that they would be able to get it anyways.

Collin152
2007-03-04, 04:52 PM
Hey, they kill fast enough to level WITHOUT your precoius gold. This army vs Army here! It's not always "YOu stand here, I'll stand here, we'll shoot each other dead". It could be more like the American Revolution; The British were organized columns, while the Americans, vastly outnumbered, took potshots at them from behind trees and such at long range. Warlocks are the free versions of that!

illathid
2007-03-04, 04:54 PM
Actually then can pick up Entropic Warding at 1st lvl.

Collin152
2007-03-04, 05:03 PM
How many Invocations do they get at first level?

illathid
2007-03-04, 05:43 PM
They get 1 least invocation. Entropic warding is a least invocation.

Emperor Tippy
2007-03-04, 05:56 PM
And what is eldritch spear? Can a warlock have both at first level?

Tor the Fallen
2007-03-04, 09:33 PM
A population density of 200/mile seems rather high.

Rama_Lei
2007-03-04, 09:38 PM
A population density of 200/mile seems rather high.
They build up, not out.

Tor the Fallen
2007-03-04, 09:43 PM
They build up, not out.

Depends on the campaign.
Are you running steampunk?

Norsesmithy
2007-03-04, 10:09 PM
These peasents are my serfs, Right?

Then why in the nine hells would I pay them?

Why would I even buy them equipment?

The only thing I need is food when we are on the march, and they grow that most of the year.

All I do is decree that everyone needs to spend 2 hours monday afternoon shooting bows at targets at 50, 75, 100, 150, and 200 yards away, say ten arrow at each target.

I give out prizes of meat to the top 50 men, at 1.5 gp per week, for a cost of 1.5 gp per week.

I also decree that everyone spend 2 hours each Wednesday practicing holding a heavy sheild and sticking a shortspear into a dummy, and have the top 50 get a prize of cheese, for a cost of .5gp per week.

I then decree that everyone spend 2 hours each Friday afternoon practicing marching in formation, and give a party to the formation that does the best, a Good Meal, with extra Ale, at a cost of 3.5gp per week.

By my decree, on Saturday morning they spend 2 hours praticing the proper use of a morningstar, and in the evening they practice with Axes. Wine at lunch for the best morningstar users (maybe 2gp, as it comes from my personal vinyard) and a rare taste of fresh fruit for the best Axemen (grown in my personal orchards).

So this costs me 6.5gp a week, as peasant levies are expected to own and maintain their own equipment (I mandate a minimum kit of a dagger, morning star, heavy crossbow, shortspear, battle axe, gambeson [padded armour], and heavy wooden sheild).

Most will probably make arrows with their friends in their idle time, perhaps over the winter when crops can't be grown, most will probably make their own gambesons, perhaps with a little help from friends (aid another on the craft armour check), most willl buy the axe head, the spear head, and the sheild boss, but make the wooden parts themselves. This gives me a 10,000 man levie, that I would probably call 1/4th of on any given battle.

The leadership feat gives me followers that I only have to equip, I don't have to pay or feed. At level 9 a leadership score of 20 or 22 is not out of reach, especially if you have a base like a whole town. This gives me 50-75 first level PC classed followers (fighter, clerics, paladins and sorcerors), 5 to 7 second level folowers (probably clerics and paladins), 3 to 4 third level followers (going to have this one be sorcerors and clerics), 2 fourth level followers (probably all clerics), 1 to 2 fifth level followers (paladins, calvary officers) and 1 sixth level follower (cleric).

My followers from the leadership feat will be the officers, the instructors, the medics, the calvary, and the heavy infantry (sword and buckler men, pikemen, and greatsword weilding shock troops).

The peasant levies will primarily be an archer base, with skirmishing as a secondary function.

Assuming a 22 in leadership, the army I field will generally be composed of a 8 man wid, 8 man deep hogshead (makes a triangle series similar to bowling pins) of heavy infantry, a squad (12) of genedarms, a 250x4 man formation of light to medium infantry, and five 50x6 formations of archers that fight protected by pavaises, Cheval de Fris, and caltrops.

Tor the Fallen
2007-03-04, 10:11 PM
At 200 peasants/square mile, disease is going to wipe them all out. There will probably be dire food and water shortages, as well. 100 sqaure miles is nothing.

http://www.io.com/~sjohn/demog.htm

Collin152
2007-03-04, 11:12 PM
Yeah, um... Unless Vorpal Tribble stats us up a "Disease Swarm" or something, I don't thnik Disease will matter much, what with Clerics running amok amongst most civillized lands.

Sardia
2007-03-04, 11:34 PM
These peasents are my serfs, Right?

Then why in the nine hells would I pay them?


Because apres vous there's going to be one heck of a deluge-- you've got a large number of well-armed and trained peasants who are so poor they're competing for cheese. And have to spend their spare time training rather than making income/more food/spending time with the wife and kids, etc.
They may decide to eat you.

Sardia
2007-03-04, 11:37 PM
At 200 peasants/square mile, disease is going to wipe them all out. There will probably be dire food and water shortages, as well. 100 sqaure miles is nothing.

http://www.io.com/~sjohn/demog.htm

You might could pull it off with a region that was really heavy into overseas trade. Export something good, import grain and such into that city, and just have the occasional bread distribution to the peasants, who spend their time making high-end export crops or goods.
The downside of that is that you've got one great vulnerability. Oh, and you'll need to be on a body of water.

Sergeantbrother
2007-03-04, 11:51 PM
We have Ishara, evil countess of Javan. She is a 9th level Sorceress who specializes in necromantic magic. Her realm could perhaps support 20,000 living souls, but many of the people there have been transformed into the undead. Almost half of the beings in the county are undead - skeletons or zombies. Each skeleton carries a light cross bow (100 bolts) and quarterstaff. Each zombie carries either a long spear or a great club. They all wear leather armor. (4,000 skeltons and 5,000 zombies for a total cost of 745,000 gp)

Her lover Vetranus is the leader of a cult of death, including many evil priests and priestesses who animate the undead and keep them under control. There are a total of 23 death clerics in this cult, 2 of which are 2nd level and 1 of which is level 3. (Ishara has the leadership feat, Vetranus is her level 9 Cohort and the other death priests are her followers. They all have light x-bows (300 bolts), morning stars, full plate armor, and large shields. They ride on heavy undead horses. 43,920 gold)

Ishara's ladies in waiting sing erie songs (bards) that empower the unliving minions of Ishara. There are 10 such ladies. They carry short bows (300 arrows), swords, shields, chain mail shirts, and ride on undead horses. (29,170 gold)

The young men of Ishara's county who are still alive use heavy crossbows (100 bolts) and quarterstaves, they wear leather armor just as the skeletons do. There are 2,000 such men. (110,000 gp).

For 928,090 gold pieces total

The rest can be spent on odds and ends

Norsesmithy
2007-03-04, 11:52 PM
They won't eat me, I own them, and am at least a 9th level PC, I could kill them all single handedly.

The scenario I put forth is less oppresive and crappy than the situation in many actual historical fiefdoms, (especially Russian ones).

And besides, it isn't like they don't have meat or cheese in their diets already, but that the prizes would allow them to eat extra (as a modern analgam, they now get bacon double quarter pounders with cheese instead of the standard quarter pounder with cheese for a week).

Besides their wife and kids participate in the training as well, think of it as a social event. Back in the 14th century, in England, archery practice was mandated for more time per week than all five trainings take my theoretical peasant militia.

And considering the psycological boost that being able to defend family, home, and country gives you, not to mention the wealth that would be accumulated by a few short seasons raiding, I think my levies wouldn't find it onerous at all.

Also archery and other fighting practice is far more entertaining than looking at the mud walls of your hut for a few hours after your chores are done.

Though as Tor pointed out you will have a hell of a time feeding 20,000+ inhabitants on 100 square miles of land.

Perhaps a 100x100 mile square would be more realistic.

Sardia
2007-03-05, 12:02 AM
The scenario I put forth is less oppresive and crappy than the situation in many actual historical fiefdoms, (especially Russian ones).

I could point out how the Russian monarchs wound up but I have to admit they did last a long, long time before that.

Tor the Fallen
2007-03-05, 12:22 AM
Yeah, um... Unless Vorpal Tribble stats us up a "Disease Swarm" or something, I don't thnik Disease will matter much, what with Clerics running amok amongst most civillized lands.

How many clerics do you have in your setting, as a % of the population, that can cast remove disease?

How many of them will devout all their spells to remove disease?

What % of the population will have Heal as a class skill? How many of those will have enough ranks to beat the disease's DC?

At 200 ppl/sqr mile, with 15th century waste treatment systems (rainwater and pigs), diet (mostly grains with little protein), and knowledge of contagion vectors (near non-existent), the disease is going to spread like wildfire through a beetle-killed spruce forest in July heat.

Remove diesease also does nothing for resistance. You are as likely to catch the same disease twice as you are once.

Kojiro Kakita
2007-03-05, 12:22 AM
They won't eat me, I own them, and am at least a 9th level PC, I could kill them all single handedly.



Looks like someone hasn't taken a class in statistics then. Believe me, the only people who believe that are people that never had a DM that enjoys killing the players. I still remember, my party was made up of 4 10lvl PCs. We were powergaming, and so the DM decided to kill us off. He gave the 200 lvl one NPCs a surprise round, and they 200 arrows at us. Needless to say, we were all wiped out.

So yeah, training peasants and keeping them in a serf like state is not a good idea.

Dhavaer
2007-03-05, 12:23 AM
I can't hold it in anymore. Every time I see the thread title I think '...worthy of Mordor.'.

Tor the Fallen
2007-03-05, 12:35 AM
Looks like someone hasn't taken a class in statistics then. Believe me, the only people who believe that are people that never had a DM that enjoys killing the players. I still remember, my party was made up of 4 10lvl PCs. We were powergaming, and so the DM decided to kill us off. He gave the 200 lvl one NPCs a surprise round, and they 200 arrows at us. Needless to say, we were all wiped out.

So yeah, training peasants and keeping them in a serf like state is not a good idea.

No windwall prepared?

Sardia
2007-03-05, 12:50 AM
No windwall prepared?

Guess the surprise round was kinda rough.
Although you'd think 200 archers would be easy to spot, and casting wind wall immediately might be a good idea.
Barring a sudden act of treachery, of course.

"So you see, not only are we a mighty group of adventurers, but we have a small horde of archers ready to skewer you."
"You have, have you?"
"Oh, sh--" TWANG...

JellyPooga
2007-03-05, 12:52 AM
I can't hold it in anymore. Every time I see the thread title I think '...worthy of Mordor.'.

chuckle:smallsmile:

Sergeantbrother
2007-03-05, 12:56 AM
I think maybe for more interesting options on armies it might be better to adjust the cost a little bit on making characters a class instead of commoner.

As it stands now, the best options are either hordes of peasants or creating an 8th level party. I think that there should more impetus to create an army with large numbers of fighters or warriors.

PS - for an 8th level party you could have 5 8th level characters with 27,000 in gear each along with 36,000 in gear for your 9th level ruler for 883,500 - leaving 116,500 to spend on extras. This excludes cheating like giving the ruler leadership enough to have a 9th level cohort who in turn has leadership to have a 9th level cohort and have infinite 9th level characters and followers.

Yahzi
2007-03-05, 01:02 AM
I like SeargentBrother's idea best so far...

I'll edit the opening post to change the problems people pointed out - support costs, etc., and to rule out silly cheese like hiring a 20th lvl caster to magically poof an infinite number of dragons.

My kingdom size wasn't that far off - "Medieval France tops the list, with a 14th-century density upwards of 100 people/sq. mile."

JellyPooga
2007-03-05, 01:05 AM
Just curious, but why does it cost the same to train a Commoner to a Lvl.1 Fighter as it does to train him to Lvl.1 Warrior?

Isn't that what the NPC classes are for? Mostly a standing army would be made up of 1-3 lvl Warriors (3rd lvl being the sergeants and veterans, 2nd being soldiers and corporal and 1st lvl being recruits and green troops). This would then be backed up by the commoners if required (i.e. faced with a bigger problem than the standing army could handle).

I suggest a pricing change for this army. Possibly have it cost half or a third the price to train in NPC classes as it is to train in PC classes? Makes it a bit more feasable to have a larger army.

Dausuul
2007-03-05, 01:19 AM
Your better off with an Command Word item of fabricate, a Command Word of Wall of Wood and a Command Word of Wall of Iron. Get a guy with a +20 or so to the relevant craft skills and you can turn out unlimited masterwork Crossbows, Masterwork Full Plate, and Masterwork Bolts (along with most other weapons in the PHB) for free.

Those 3 items cost 180,000 GP (Fabricate), 216,000 (Wall of Iron), and about the same for the wall of wood item (can't look up the spell elvel at the moment). Now you can sell some of the tiems you makes and these items will pay for them self in about a day. Another day to equip every single person in your nation in masterwork full plate and with masterwork crossbows.

Care to indicate which sourcebook contains these items? The item creation rules in the SRD are a guide only, for DMs and players who want to introduce custom items; such items are not RAW. That's why the table is called "Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values."

And your army of 10K peasants costs 5 million gp a year to maintain, under the rules the OP laid out. You're 4.9 million gp over budget there.

Tor the Fallen
2007-03-05, 01:25 AM
The highest level crafter you're going to have access to on a regular basis is 8. I'd say get 2 level 8 druids, wizards and clerics. Make sure they have craft feats, as well as the ones that reduce cost.

Then have them make stuff for .375 cost. Buy the xp you need. Craft a boccobs blessed book and have the wizards share it. Now spells only cost 50gp/level to copy from another wizard's book.

Emperor Tippy
2007-03-05, 01:29 AM
There custom items. I never said otherwise.

As for the OPs upkeep costs. They are outrageously stupid and inane.

I pointed out in one of my posts how much upkeep would actually be (10,000 GP per day that the army is called up roughly). Now if the OP's figures were the cost for a PC class, I would say that it is somewhat more believable.

I mean trail rations cost 5 SP per day per person. Even assuming that we are feeding the whole army for the whole year it only costs 1.825 million GP NOT 5 million GP.

Salary for a professional is between 1 and 3 SP per day. At 3 SP per day it is only 109.5 GP per year for salary.

And why do you have a standing army for the whole year? I never said I did. If I wanted to I could have my people making profession checks all day every day that they aren't in battle and I would make enough to keep them fed and payed.

Basically the OP's figures are arbitrary and worthless if you wanted to actually follwo teh D&D rules.

Norsesmithy
2007-03-05, 01:43 AM
Looks like someone hasn't taken a class in statistics then. Believe me, the only people who believe that are people that never had a DM that enjoys killing the players. I still remember, my party was made up of 4 10lvl PCs. We were powergaming, and so the DM decided to kill us off. He gave the 200 lvl one NPCs a surprise round, and they 200 arrows at us. Needless to say, we were all wiped out.

So yeah, training peasants and keeping them in a serf like state is not a good idea.
Actually I have, and as a DM I consistantly kill players using those tactics, but why would I fight in such a way that they all would get to attack me at the same time?

Also Windwall.

Frankly after a season or two of raiding with an army like this one, I could force the neighboring fifedoms into paying tribute, the ones that don't will be raided, and the loot my peasants bring back for themselves would make them wealthier than most middle class people in most other kingdoms. The only issue is that I will have to allow the citizens some say in their governance because people tend not to take too well to continual warmaking unless they have a vested political interest in their state.

And frankly I have no problem with that. I would totally make into a constitutional monarchy.

Historically peasant rebellions are caused by famine and disease, not military training and successful wars (look at how the poor and the starving in France were Napolean's power base), and considering the amount of coin my armies should generate I can afford magical safeguards against crop failure and epidemic.

Manditory military service is not a historical root for disention, unless you happen to be losing a war out of sheer stupididty.

Sergeantbrother
2007-03-05, 01:53 AM
How about these numbers :

Cost to upgrade a commoner to a warrior, aristocrat, or expert : 100 gp

Cost to upgrade a commoner to an adept, rogue, or fighter : 250 gp

Cost to upgrade a commoner to another class : 500 gp

This makes it cheap enough so that somebody might actually want to have a group of warriors face off against a mob of commoners.

Make the rules so that you have to pay for everything, nothing can be crafted by experts or magic users or anything - that is just looking for loopholes. Just like no using the money to hire somebody to cast a spell or anything like that.

Furthermore, lets reduce the cost significantly for upkeep. Lets make commoners cost nothing - they are free. Unfortunately, every person who is combat ready (instead of working the fields) costs 5 gp per year each. For example, that 100,000 per year comes from the labor of your peasants - so if 10,000 peasants are armed with slings, even though they cost nothing to equip, they can't work the fields and thus you're out 50,000 gp per year. So this is a reason not just to arm any left over peasants you have with slings and clubs because it will reduce your ability to generate income.

Furthermore, lets count warriors as mercenaries who get paid 2 sp per day (per level lets say) and lets assume that they only serve you 125 days a year so that's 25 gold per year per level for a warrior. Lets double the amount for fighters, rogues, and adepts for 50 gp per pevel per year and double it again for other PC classes - 100 gp per level per year.

Thus if we have 5000 peasants and 1000 warriors, the total cost in upkeep would be 55,000 gp per year - 30,000 for the 6,000 people who aren't working your fields and 25,000 for 1000 1st level warriors.

Tor the Fallen
2007-03-05, 02:12 AM
Why do 'warriors as mercenaries' only serve you 125 days a year, but the commoner equipped with a sling doesn't do any work at all?

Sergeantbrother
2007-03-05, 02:26 AM
Why do 'warriors as mercenaries' only serve you 125 days a year, but the commoner equipped with a sling doesn't do any work at all?

Because the majority of a peasant's labor's doesn't go to generating the 100,000 per year, but rather goes to feeding himself and his family, buying general supplies for the barony, keeping the castle in repair, clothing, etc. The 100,000 per year is just extra spending money, not the total gross domestic product of the barony.

And largely I set prices so as to try to balance them so that its not obviously better to get one type of troop over another.

Tor the Fallen
2007-03-05, 02:30 AM
Because the majority of a peasant's labor's doesn't go to generating the 100,000 per year, but rather goes to feeding himself and his family, buying general supplies for the barony, keeping the castle in repair, clothing, etc. The 100,000 per year is just extra spending money, not the total gross domestic product of the barony.

And largely I set prices so as to try to balance them so that its not obviously better to get one type of troop over another.

All those actions contribute to GDP- they're all consumptive.

If taxes were levied properly, it wouldn't really matter what the peasant was doing. You'd still get very near to 100,000 gp worth of services.

Tor the Fallen
2007-03-05, 02:31 AM
Because the majority of a peasant's labor's doesn't go to generating the 100,000 per year, but rather goes to feeding himself and his family, buying general supplies for the barony, keeping the castle in repair, clothing, etc. The 100,000 per year is just extra spending money, not the total gross domestic product of the barony.

And largely I set prices so as to try to balance them so that its not obviously better to get one type of troop over another.

Balance? Son, this is war!

Emperor Tippy
2007-03-05, 02:39 AM
Since you decided the max army size is 5,000 people this is easy.

5,000 human first level commoners with the feats Rapid Reload and Point Blank Shot.

Each is equipped with a Heavy Crossbow (50 GP), Leather Armor (10 GP), a Long spear (5 GP), a club (free), and 200 bolts (20 GP).

Total Cost to equip a single solider is 85 GP.
Total cost to equip all 5,000 soldiers is 425,000 GP.

If the enemy has calvary you have 1/5th (1,000 men)in a line ahead of the bowmen and all of them set there spears against a charge and ready actions to stab any charging calvary. The line directly behind that is made up of 1,000 archers who ready actions to shoot any infantry/calvary who happen to be running straight at them. The other 3,000 men stay behind the line and volley there shots to hit the enemy (targeting squares).

If the enemy has casters then the set up is the same as above except that the 1,000 archers in the front are split into groups of 50 men (20 groups) and each group is given a different caster to shoot. Even a level 5 caster dies from 50 heavy crossbow hits. And if some groups don't have casters they ready actions to shoot any casters who survive the initial attack.

If the enemy is made up of mostly archers then you use terrain and tactics to out maneuver them and win.


---
Sorry but archers are the best army in D&D. They are cheap, powerful, can basically ignore AC in groups, and have great range.

---
Now what to do with the other 575,000 GP.

Well a bolt of sleep costs 132 GP each so lets say 2,000 of those (for the special fights) at a cost of 264,000 GP.

311,000 GP left

I think I'll equip a group of calvary archers. 100 first level fighters. 200,000 GP for being fighters. 50,000 GP for the Heavy Crossbows. 2,000 GP for the bolts. 40,000 GP for the heavy warhorses.

That leaves 19,000 GP left. So lets equip them all with Scale Male 5,000 GP.

So I have 14,000 GP left to spend.

100 level 1 fighters in scale male, on heavy warhorses, with heavy crossbows. And 5,000 men in leather armor with heavy crossbows, clubs and long spears.

Sergeantbrother
2007-03-05, 02:45 AM
Balance? Son, this is war!

Well, the reason for balancing costs is so that the senario allows for creating interesting and somewhat thematically appropriate armies.

The intent of this thread, I assume, was to create armies. Not to use the million gp to create a well equiped party to to just hand out a cheap simple weapon to all of your peasants.

I think it would be able to have an army of warriors that cost the same as an army of peasants match each other fairly well. So that this thread can be creative. So that one person could create a fairly elite army made up of hundreds of fighters who are well armed and another person could create an army made up of peasants with crossbows for the same cost - and that these armies might be somewhat evenly matched.

If these forces aren't balanced then the best option will be the same thing and it would be boring.

Emperor Tippy
2007-03-05, 02:50 AM
Balance? Son, this is war!

Agreed. If you want what would happen in a real D&D war with that kind of money I would show you but the OP seems to want a non-magical army.


The best thing to do is to go and get a bunch of dragons to guard your land. And if you aren't allowing that then you need to give some better rules for creating magic items.

A 1 times use (CL 5) sling stone of fireball (according to the guidelines) costs 750 GP. So 100 of them costs 75,000 GP.

100 level 1 commoners with slings cost nothing and don't need that great of aim. Those 100 men can turn a 4000 foot diameter area into a big fireball dealing 5d6 damage to everything in there and catches most of the area on fire.

Congratulation's, you just decimated a force up to 4,400 guys.


So that one person could create a fairly elite army made up of hundreds of fighters who are well armed and another person could create an army made up of peasants with crossbows for the same cost - and that these armies might be somewhat evenly matched.

The fighters will never win. No matter the circumstances a natural 20 is an auto hit. 5,000 peasants with heavy crossbows against 100 fighters who they only hit on a natural 20 is still 5 hits per round. At average damage, that is 25 HP lost per round. A level 5 fighter would (on average) have 30 (with the first HD maxed) HP per round + Con. Assuming a con of 14 that is 40 HP per fighter.

Every fighter is dead in 2 rounds. They will never get in range to even threaten the crossbowmen.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-03-05, 03:02 AM
Depends on what you call 'leadership cheeze'... I can make a 9th level character with a charisma of 20 and sufficent bonuses to have 50 1st level followers, 5 2nd, 3 3rd, 2 4th, and a 5th level follower. That's not too breaking for the price of a feat. If that's the case, most of my followers would be clerics, sorcerers, and paladins.

Okay, here's my army.

For the basic peasant leeve, the kit is a Longspear, Club, Heavy Crossbow and Studded Leather. The human feat for these people would be Simple Weapon Proficency, as I require every able-bodied person over the age of 12 to be able to attend basic Militia Training for one winter every year from after fall harvest until before spring planting and strongly encourage people to continue practicing in their spare time. Their 1st level feat is Rapid Reload, which lets them fire their heavy crossbow every round while remaining still. Total cost of the kit: 80 GP.

Basic 'grunt' package is a 1st level Warrior. Basic 'Kit' is a Guisarme, a Crossbow, and a Greatclub for weapons, and Scale Mail for armor. Their Human Bonus Feat is Talented, which gives them two skills that were cross class as class skills. His 1st level feat is Rapid Reload. These two skills are Craft and Heal. With 3 skills (because they are human), they get Craft (Weaponsmithing), Craft (Armorsmithing), and Heal, all at 4 ranks. In effect, each man makes his own weapons and armor, giving me half-cost on them. Thanks to this, each grunt package is only 57, plus 5 for the artisan's kit makes it 62.

Basic 'support sorcerer' package is a 1st level Sorcerer (PhBII variant with the ability to spontaniously cast metamagic but no familiar). Spells known are: Cantrips: Dancing Lights, Detect Magic, Message, and Mending; 1st level spells: Grease and either Color Spray or Sleep. 1st level feat: Eschew Materials, Human Bonus Feat: choose one of Improved Initiative or Combat Casting. Max ranks in Concentration, Spellcraft, and Knowledge (Arcana). Basic 'kit' is Longspear, Club, and Heavy Crossbow, for a total cost of 55.

Basic 'healer' kit is a 1st level Cleric with a Spear and Scale Mail. Doesn't matter what spells he memorises, he's almost always going to end up spontaniously casting cure spells, using the cantrips to auto-stabalize and the 1st level spells to heal grunts. He uses a simply wooden holy object, which appears to be standard issue, so as to not be obviously a healer. Healing Kits are not worth it, as each one is only good for 10 uses, which will go by FAST in combat and too expensive to issue as part of a standard kit.

I haven't done the math on troop disposition yet, however you see where I'm going with this. Basically, every peasant is able to use a crossbow and longspear and knows how to stand in formation thanks to the militia training everyone gets. So I have a standing army of up to 5,000 troops which I don't have to pay upkeep for and only pay 80 gp each for 400,000 gold. That's 5,000 crossbow bolts heading your way every round as long as ammo doesn't run out.

For the Warriors, same deal. Major difference is the upgrade in gear from studded leather to scale, upgrade the reach weapon from a longspear to a Guisarme, and upgrading the club to a greatclub.

Notice how similar the Sorcerer kit is to the peasant militia kit? Done that way on purpose, and looks exactly the same. This is to keep opponents from targeting sorcerers at range. Also notice they don't have any direct damage? Yea, done on purpose. Basically, Message is used for local comunication, Dancing Lights is used for signaling, with a pre-defined pattern for various situations. Mending is used to repair items in the heat of combat. Grease is used to break up charges, and Sleep/Color Spray is used to shut down more powerful troops who try to close.

Notice that every Warrior has Heal as a class skill? This will greatly increase survivability among troops as everyone can at least make a heal check to stabalize their buddy. Heck, I may even go so far as to require basic first aid training for every peasant, so even the commoner leevey has 1 rank (cross class for 2 skill points) in Heal.

Emperor Tippy
2007-03-05, 03:11 AM
Remember to pay for the bolts.

And your sorcerers won't be effective in combat. They don't have enough range (one of the reason I dropped them, although they are good for stopping a charge).

Heal isn't worth it. Its a round that you are staying still to keep a guy alive who won't survive be able to fight in the battle.

And you don't want to stay skill when archers are shooting at you.

Also the OP said no crafting. And commoners get proficiency with 1 simple weapon for free plus there 2 feats (human and first level).

Tor the Fallen
2007-03-05, 03:12 AM
Agreed. If you want what would happen in a real D&D war with that kind of money I would show you but the OP seems to want a non-magical army.


The best thing to do is to go and get a bunch of dragons to guard your land. And if you aren't allowing that then you need to give some better rules for creating magic items.

A 1 times use (CL 5) sling stone of fireball (according to the guidelines) costs 750 GP. So 100 of them costs 75,000 GP.

100 level 1 commoners with slings cost nothing and don't need that great of aim. Those 100 men can turn a 4000 foot diameter area into a big fireball dealing 5d6 damage to everything in there and catches most of the area on fire.

Congratulation's, you just decimated a force up to 4,400 guys.



The fighters will never win. No matter the circumstances a natural 20 is an auto hit. 5,000 peasants with heavy crossbows against 100 fighters who they only hit on a natural 20 is still 5 hits per round. At average damage, that is 25 HP lost per round. A level 5 fighter would (on average) have 30 (with the first HD maxed) HP per round + Con. Assuming a con of 14 that is 40 HP per fighter.

Every fighter is dead in 2 rounds. They will never get in range to even threaten the crossbowmen.

Without proper training (ie, d4 hd commoners without proficiency in armor = no martial training whatsoever), they'd break ranks and flee on a properly executed charge. Cavalry would eat them alive. Once the fighters closed ranks, they would lack the training and will to stay and fight.

Tower shields fo full cover would equally decimate your strategy.

Also, where would you find 5,000 peasants with the exact same starting feats?

I'd go with a slightly higher level, better trained, and more mobile force, with sorcerors that have fly and blasty spells. Battlefield control spells would also be good- stuff to keep 5,000 peasants from amassing in such a way.

Actually, I'm still going to invest in 6 8th level characters- two cleric, wizard and druid. The rest of the $$ can go to outfitting a cavalry.

Emperor Tippy
2007-03-05, 03:32 AM
Without proper training (ie, d4 hd commoners without proficiency in armor = no martial training whatsoever), they'd break ranks and flee on a properly executed charge. Cavalry would eat them alive. Once the fighters closed ranks, they would lack the training and will to stay and fight.
Stop making up rules. Or saying what my commoners will or will not do.

And that isn't the point of my statement at all. It was that 100 guys with 75,000 GP worth of items are more deadly then most everything mentioned so far. If you want me to use the full million to do the same thing you will get even more fun. Lets say 100 Level 1 Warriors on Heavy Warhorse and wearing a breast plate for starters. With lets say 2 shots each.

Magic changes most of the rules about building an army in D&D and if you want a real situation you need to account for that.


Tower shields fo full cover would equally decimate your strategy.Nope. Read the rules. Tower shields don't stop targeted spell effects (i just have to hit your touch AC) and I can also target the square which hits your guys as well.


Also, where would you find 5,000 peasants with the exact same starting feats?...
You train them. Feats aren't all inborn talent. Most of the fighter ones are mostly training.


I'd go with a slightly higher level, better trained, and more mobile force, with sorcerors that have fly and blasty spells. Battlefield control spells would also be good- stuff to keep 5,000 peasants from amassing in such a way.None of the good BC spells to use against armies can be cast by your sorcerers who know 1 3rd level spell at level 6. Oh and each one costs you 77,000 GP. You get less then 20 of them against my 5000 peasants who are shooting all the arrows they got at you.


Actually, I'm still going to invest in 6 8th level characters- two cleric, wizard and druid. The rest of the $$ can go to outfitting a cavalry.That party costs you 840,000 GP and you intend to throw 6 level 8 characters against 5,000 men with heavy crossbows?

You would be decimated.

kellandros
2007-03-05, 12:14 PM
Way to reduce the natural 20 always hit with ranged weapons- anything that provides an additional miss chance. Blink, invisibility will help- but not in the attack the whole square the guy is in. Combine those with partial cover though, and a rogue with strong evasion skills to sucker in all the arrows.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-03-05, 02:54 PM
With all the fiefdom arguments, I'd like to add on to what I mentioned before about my Tripartite army-

In total, I actually ruled a small kingdom of around 200,000 people. Like I said before, only 10k of that were troops. It made the most logistic sense, since that meant the country could still function independently with little need for outside resources or ruling with an iron fist. I also had a couple of crafters, healers, professionals and what-not, but by no means did I make it any sort of requirement for every single peasant/soldier. I simply made a demographics list, and deducted that from my total cost for raising the army.

Until they were up to speed, and a little after that as well in fact, I made a habit of hiring handfulls of high-level NPC adventurers as generals, shock troops, and mercenaries. I was careful to never hire too many at a time, however, since there could be dire repurcussions to inviting a bunch of high level NPC's with no actual loyalty to you into your country. Honestly, having four high-level wizards fighting for you sounds like a great idea until you consider how they can kill you too.

I kept morale as absolutely high as possible with buying extra goods and luxuries for my people to prevent crap like that.

Tor the Fallen
2007-03-05, 03:27 PM
Stop making up rules. Or saying what my commoners will or will not do.

They're commoners, dude. That's precisely what they'd do.
You must be the sort of DM that runs his mosnters "Gee, I don't see the 'flee' special ability in this monster's stat bloc, he'll just take the punishment until he dies, I guess!"


And that isn't the point of my statement at all. It was that 100 guys with 75,000 GP worth of items are more deadly then most everything mentioned so far. If you want me to use the full million to do the same thing you will get even more fun. Lets say 100 Level 1 Warriors on Heavy Warhorse and wearing a breast plate for starters. With lets say 2 shots each.

You mean with the slinging of fireballs?


Magic changes most of the rules about building an army in D&D and if you want a real situation you need to account for that.

Yes.


Nope. Read the rules. Tower shields don't stop targeted spell effects (i just have to hit your touch AC) and I can also target the square which hits your guys as well.

They would stop 5,000 bolts, though.



You train them. Feats aren't all inborn talent. Most of the fighter ones are mostly training.

As commoners, one of their feats will likely be related to not dying of scruvy, or herding cows. If you want absolute feat selection, use warriors instead of commoners.


None of the good BC spells to use against armies can be cast by your sorcerers who know 1 3rd level spell at level 6. Oh and each one costs you 77,000 GP. You get less then 20 of them against my 5000 peasants who are shooting all the arrows they got at you.

Yeah, a wizard would be a better choice, although a hasted, flying, invisible sorc with a couple rods of enlarge spell could lob fireballs from about a fifth of a mile away with pin point accuracy into your formation. Make sure he's the PHBII variant that can cast metmagicked spells as less than a full round.


That party costs you 840,000 GP and you intend to throw 6 level 8 characters against 5,000 men with heavy crossbows?

You would be decimated.

Windwall.
Flight.
Tower shields.
Invisibility.
Icestorm.
Stoneskin.

Fly above the commoners and rain spells down on them. What goes up, must come down. They'd kill themselves with whatever they missed with.

Or, with that 1440 ft range on an enlarged fireball, blast the 100 peasants carrying necklaces of fireballs. What a terrific chain reaction that would be.

Alternatively, scry where your level 9 leader is, fly over your commoners, then kill the leader with a cluster**** of control spells. Or the two druids, with greater invisibility, drop down in dire lion form and wipe him out.

6 level 8 characters have far greater versatility than a bunch of commoners. Far, far more mobility. With scry and prying eyes and a whole bunch of really handy spells, they can figure out EXACTLY what your stategy is, then come up with the perfect plan against it.

A Cleric, with stoneskin on him and his horse, could spend a full 80 minutes charging round and attacking peasants. If he only missed on a natural one, he could kill 760 peasants in those 80 minutes. His horse could probably kill a similar number.

A much better investment is in characters that can produce magic.

Renrik
2007-03-05, 04:10 PM
Build me an army!

Worthy of Mordor?

Emperor Tippy
2007-03-05, 04:36 PM
Way to reduce the natural 20 always hit with ranged weapons- anything that provides an additional miss chance. Blink, invisibility will help- but not in the attack the whole square the guy is in. Combine those with partial cover though, and a rogue with strong evasion skills to sucker in all the arrows.

Now find a way to afford an item of blink for all your troops.




They're commoners, dude. That's precisely what they'd do.
Not necessarily. And not if you have had them pratice it a few times. Turning around 3/4's of a mile of land into a fireball really raises moral.


You must be the sort of DM that runs his mosnters "Gee, I don't see the 'flee' special ability in this monster's stat bloc, he'll just take the punishment until he dies, I guess!"
Haha. Play one of my games some time. Monsters are played nothing like that.


You mean with the slinging of fireballs?
Yeah. Or better yet bolts of fireball (more range) or bolts of sleep. Put 4 guys to sleep on a DC 11 save and the bolts only cost 50 GP each.

1 arrow storm of those and your army is sleeping on the ground to be rounded up and sold as slave labor.


They would stop 5,000 bolts, though.
You can't move when you are using a tower shield for full cover though. And each tower shield costs 50 GP so you are talking 50,000 GP per 1,000 guys with them. Not to mention that every guy has to be using the total cover action as it only provides cover to one guy NOT every one.


As commoners, one of their feats will likely be related to not dying of scruvy, or herding cows. If you want absolute feat selection, use warriors instead of commoners.
House rules here.

How this challenge was set up you get to choose your mens feats.


Yeah, a wizard would be a better choice, although a hasted, flying, invisible sorc with a couple rods of enlarge spell could lob fireballs from about a fifth of a mile away with pin point accuracy into your formation. Make sure he's the PHBII variant that can cast metmagicked spells as less than a full round.
To know haste, fly, and invisibility your sorcerer has to be level 7 at the minimum.

Casters aren't worth it in armies until they are level 10+ and only really start to be good around level 15 (for offensive work).


Windwall.
Doesn't move. If you want to attack me you have to come past it. Doesn't last long enough for you to destroy most of my army before it runs out either. And its another 3rd level spell.


Flight.
See above.


Tower shields.
The most effective counter to archers but see above for why this not that great.

Oh and I could ready an action to attack you as soon as you lower the total cover to advance.


Invisibility.
See above.


Icestorm.
Is a 4th level spell so you need an 8th level sorcerer to be able to use it once per day. It also only kills around 80 guys out of 5,000.


Stoneskin.
Again its a 4th level spell. And It only stops 80 damage at CL 8. Its not that great.


Fly above the commoners and rain spells down on them. What goes up, must come down. They'd kill themselves with whatever they missed with.
Not really. You angle the shots. And what exactly are you using to do damage from up there? You only get 1 3rd level spell at level 6. 2 at level 7.

You could only cast 3-5 fireballs (depending on bonus spells) at level 7.


Or, with that 1440 ft range on an enlarged fireball, blast the 100 peasants carrying necklaces of fireballs. What a terrific chain reaction that would be.
Enlarged fireball requires an 8th level caster to be able to do it 3 times per day. And you still kill at most 44 guys per casting. Its not worth it.


Alternatively, scry where your level 9 leader is, fly over your commoners, then kill the leader with a cluster**** of control spells. Or the two druids, with greater invisibility, drop down in dire lion form and wipe him out.
Where are you getting all these spells? And a permanent Private Sanctum costs less than 30K. Just keep the leader in a house in there and he is safe from scrying by a deity.


6 level 8 characters have far greater versatility than a bunch of commoners. Far, far more mobility. With scry and prying eyes and a whole bunch of really handy spells, they can figure out EXACTLY what your stategy is, then come up with the perfect plan against it.
Maybe in 5-10 levels.

Look at how many spells you get per day, how many spells are actually helpful for something like that, and look at the cheaper counters to all of them.

Most scryign is pretty crappy until you get Contact Other Planes or Commune. You don't get good mobility until you get overland flight, phantom steed (at 14th level), or teleport.


A Cleric, with stoneskin on him and his horse, could spend a full 80 minutes charging round and attacking peasants. If he only missed on a natural one, he could kill 760 peasants in those 80 minutes. His horse could probably kill a similar number.
Stoneskin only stops the first 80 damage. That would be dealt to you in under 3 rounds.


A much better investment is in characters that can produce magic.

Not at the levels that this challenge is limited to. When you can get level 15-20 casters then magic becomes really viable for army killing but until then it isn't that great for massed battles.

Collin152
2007-03-05, 05:41 PM
How many clerics do you have in your setting, as a % of the population, that can cast remove disease?

How many of them will devout all their spells to remove disease?

What % of the population will have Heal as a class skill? How many of those will have enough ranks to beat the disease's DC?

At 200 ppl/sqr mile, with 15th century waste treatment systems (rainwater and pigs), diet (mostly grains with little protein), and knowledge of contagion vectors (near non-existent), the disease is going to spread like wildfire through a beetle-killed spruce forest in July heat.

Remove diesease also does nothing for resistance. You are as likely to catch the same disease twice as you are once.
Right, cause getting over a disease confers immunity in this game. Puh-leez.

Tor the Fallen
2007-03-05, 06:03 PM
Not necessarily. And not if you have had them pratice it a few times. Turning around 3/4's of a mile of land into a fireball really raises moral.

And if your enemy is invisible, flying, and turning random patches of troops into ash?


Yeah. Or better yet bolts of fireball (more range) or bolts of sleep. Put 4 guys to sleep on a DC 11 save and the bolts only cost 50 GP each.

A sleep arrow, by the SRD, is 132 gp.


1 arrow storm of those and your army is sleeping on the ground to be rounded up and sold as slave labor.

Who said I had an army?


You can't move when you are using a tower shield for full cover though. And each tower shield costs 50 GP so you are talking 50,000 GP per 1,000 guys with them. Not to mention that every guy has to be using the total cover action as it only provides cover to one guy NOT every one.

Check the rules on tower shields again.
And again, why equip 1,000 guys with tower shields? I'd give it to the cleric.



House rules here.

That the ruler of a country gets to decide what feats his subjects his have? Uh, ok.


How this challenge was set up you get to choose your mens feats.

Agreed. Just use warriors, instead of commoners here.



To know haste, fly, and invisibility your sorcerer has to be level 7 at the minimum.

A relatively easy spellcraft check from a scroll.

But maybe you missed the part where I keep saying 2 druids, 2 wizards, 2 clerics?


Casters aren't worth it in armies until they are level 10+ and only really start to be good around level 15 (for offensive work).

Nah.


Doesn't move. If you want to attack me you have to come past it. Doesn't last long enough for you to destroy most of my army before it runs out either. And its another 3rd level spell.

Fireballs. Spells.


See above.

2 druids, 2 wizards, 2 clerics


The most effective counter to archers but see above for why this not that great.

Read the rules again.


Oh and I could ready an action to attack you as soon as you lower the total cover to advance.

But could you get 5,000 peasants to all attack at the same time?



See above.

2 druids, 2 wizards, 2 clerics
scrolls.


Is a 4th level spell so you need an 8th level sorcerer to be able to use it once per day. It also only kills around 80 guys out of 5,000.

2 druids, 2 wizards, 2 clerics
scrolls


Again its a 4th level spell. And It only stops 80 damage at CL 8. Its not that great.

Missed the bit about the damage cap.


Not really. You angle the shots. And what exactly are you using to do damage from up there? You only get 1 3rd level spell at level 6. 2 at level 7.

Level 8 wizard w/ scrolls.
And it's impossible to 'angle the shots' when someone's directly above you. Furthermore, there are going to be a lot of natural 1s rolled.


You could only cast 3-5 fireballs (depending on bonus spells) at level 7.

Scrolls, at level 8.


Enlarged fireball requires an 8th level caster to be able to do it 3 times per day. And you still kill at most 44 guys per casting. Its not worth it.

Scrolls.


Where are you getting all these spells? And a permanent Private Sanctum costs less than 30K. Just keep the leader in a house in there and he is safe from scrying by a deity.

2 druids, 2 wizards, 2 clerics
Scrolls



Maybe in 5-10 levels.

Are six level 8 casters not in that range???


Look at how many spells you get per day, how many spells are actually helpful for something like that, and look at the cheaper counters to all of them.

scrolls
wands


Most scryign is pretty crappy until you get Contact Other Planes or Commune. You don't get good mobility until you get overland flight, phantom steed (at 14th level), or teleport.

Better scrying than none at all. And with pots of glibness and alter self, disguise self, and a druid with max diplomacy, very easy to get things to get fingernails, hair, etc.



Stoneskin only stops the first 80 damage. That would be dealt to you in under 3 rounds.

True. Unless you used a tower shield.


Not at the levels that this challenge is limited to. When you can get level 15-20 casters then magic becomes really viable for army killing but until then it isn't that great for massed battles.

Casters would decimate the peasants.

With invisibility, you could use all those spells with close ranges, like soften earth or ice wall to really confound the troops.

Exchanging one of the druids for a bard might be a good idea. Bardic Knowledge, mad social skills, and spreading rumors about powerful sorcerors to undermine the morale of your commoner army. That way, they just break rank and flee sooner.

Using skeletons as troops would be worthwile. Not a whole lot of hp, but with DR5, half the crossbow bolts are going to do squat. They don't get tired, which means they can run at 120 ft/rnd all day with whatever they can carry. They also have high initiative; corpsecrafter + nimble bones means they have something like +10 to initiative. Have them attack at will, which means that all your peasants will be waiting to volley their arrows for that guy who rolled a one, while the skeletons just closed the gap from their hidden position. Now they can only get hit by a handful of peasants who have only a +2 to attack, while they'll have an AC. That means only have the peasants will hit, and only half of those will do damage, unless they continue to volley into their own ranks.
If the skeletons exploded upon death, that'd be better, as the commoners would definitely break and run, lacking combat training.

Tor the Fallen
2007-03-05, 06:05 PM
Right, cause getting over a disease confers immunity in this game. Puh-leez.

Regardless, there's no immunity, only fort saves, which makes a cleric a much less effective treatment than innoculation.

Ooh, just thought of another good way to defeat an army- contagion.

Collin152
2007-03-05, 06:10 PM
Contaigion has no incubation period, and is therofre less likely to be spread- kills too fast.
What innoculation? The only means of preventing/curing disease are clerics with Remove Disease and Purify Food/Drink.

Tor the Fallen
2007-03-05, 06:36 PM
Contaigion has no incubation period, and is therofre less likely to be spread- kills too fast.

1d4 strength damage won't kill anyone.


What innoculation? The only means of preventing/curing disease are clerics with Remove Disease and Purify Food/Drink.

Why is this so hard to understand?
A handful of clerics that cure perhaps half a dozen people each will do NOTHING to stem the sort of plague that would rip through a 14th century community with a population density of 200 ppl/sqr mile.

Clerics are not "doctors with magic." For the purpose of large scale prevention of diseases, clerics aren't going to be nearly as useful as modern medicine. Every time they heal a person of whatever disease, he's just as likely to become infected again by whatever vector made him sick in the first place. And if it's a con damaging disease, he's even more likely.

Clerics are ineffective tools for largescale operations. The best cure is prevention. Clerics have no preventative tools at their disposal.

Dwarven experts with knowledge: architecture, craft: sewer, and profession: architect would be about 1000x more effective than clerics.

Sergeantbrother
2007-03-05, 06:36 PM
Regardless of the effectiveness of 6 level 8 characters lead by a level 9 character, isn't that kind of going against the spirit of the thread? The title is "build me an army" not "build me a party".

Emperor Tippy
2007-03-05, 07:10 PM
And if your enemy is invisible, flying, and turning random patches of troops into ash?
You can't do it often enough to matter. A level 8 sorcerer can turn at most 352 guys to ash per day. If you are flying it comes down to 308 guys killed per day per sorcerer.

You simple can't cast enough to be effective against an army.


A sleep arrow, by the SRD, is 132 gp.
I don't want a sleep arrow. I want a wondrous that happens to be the same shape, size, and weight as a bolt but is actually a use activated (hitting the ground) item of sleep. Cost per the item creation guidelines is 50 GP plus the cost of the bolt.


Who said I had an army?
If fighting an army. I was using you to imply an enemy army.


Check the rules on tower shields again.
Fine you can move (but not attack). Doesn't really matter as you have to leave cover to attack and a readied action can fill you all with bolts.

It also provides you specifically with total cover NOT anyone who happens to be behind you. And the shield doesn't provide cover against targeted spells.


And again, why equip 1,000 guys with tower shields? I'd give it to the cleric.

Ok your cleric who can't attack is sitting around not being filled with arrows while all the guys he would have to heal are.


That the ruler of a country gets to decide what feats his subjects his have? Uh, ok.
No. That for purposes of this exercise the poster gets to pick the specific makeup of there army within some specific rules. Feats are decided by the creator of the army for purposes of this exercise.


Agreed. Just use warriors, instead of commoners here.
Nah. Warriors cost money and don't provide any benefit. Fighters or barbarians could be worth it but not warriors.


A relatively easy spellcraft check from a scroll.
Go look up the prices on those scrolls. It becomes very cost prohibitive very quickly.


But maybe you missed the part where I keep saying 2 druids, 2 wizards, 2 clerics?
Fly and Invisibility are minutes/level so you have to use it right at battle time. Haste is rounds/level and not worth it.

And who is all of this being cast on? The flight and invisibility don't help the clerics much, the wizards are now out of most of there spells per day, and the druids don't have that many things to do while invisible and flying.


Nah.
Please elaborate. You have your party of 6 8th level characters and you have to kill my army of level 1 commoners. You can't by a scroll of a higher level spell than you can cast. How do you do it?

When you get Cloudkill casters start to own armies or low level characters. But that is a 5th level spell.


Fireballs. Spells.
Your already out of spell from the flying and invisibility and the wind wall.

And I have shown that fireball isn't really that great against an army unless you can create hundreds of the things.



2 druids, 2 wizards, 2 clerics
See above.


Read the rules again.
See above. Readied action to shoot you once you lower the shields to attack.


But could you get 5,000 peasants to all attack at the same time?
Yes. In D&D its as simple as me saying they all attack at the same time. RAW not realism is what matters.

And "Fire when you here the command" is not that complicated of a thing.



2 druids, 2 wizards, 2 clerics
scrolls.
You still don't have enough magic.


2 druids, 2 wizards, 2 clerics
scrolls
See above. And where are these clerics getting fireballs? Or the druids? Rememebr that wizards get even less spells per day then sorcerers.


Missed the bit about the damage cap.
Yeah. Thats one of the important parts.


Level 8 wizard w/ scrolls.
And it's impossible to 'angle the shots' when someone's directly above you. Furthermore, there are going to be a lot of natural 1s rolled.
"Back row, shoot over the heads of teh rest of the army to fill the air with arrows".

And invisibility wares off the first time you attack.


Scrolls, at level 8.
At 375 GP each and you only get 5 spells per day for fireball.


Scrolls.
Expensive and they aren't cost effective for the number of guys killed.

Remember, you spent 840,000 GP on just getting those level 8 guys. That leave you 160,000 GP to equip them (or roughly 27 thousand GP per character).


2 druids, 2 wizards, 2 clerics
Scrolls
Has nothing to do with my post. You can't find my leader. Not even wish can penetrate a private sanctum.


Are six level 8 casters not in that range???
No they aren't.

You can't spy reliably. You can't deal enough damage to be effective. You can't do hit and run real well (lacking teleportation).

Look through the available spells and let me know which ones are actually effective when fighting an army. Remember, you can only cast 2 4th level spells per day from your wizards.


scrolls
wands
Again, look at prices. A wand of fireball costs you 13,500 GP. That is half of each of your characters wealth allotment.

You can cast at most 6 fireballs per round. Killing a total of at most 264 soldiers per round. Once you cast those fireballs you lose your invisibility. I Have at least 4,756 guys left to shoot arrows at you. Divided by 6 that is 789 arrows at each one of your people. Or 40 natural 20's and 2 of them are critical hits. That is an average of 190+20 (210) damage to each one of your guys. If we assume each one had stoneskin up then we can deduct 80 points from that for a total of 130 damage to each of your level 8 casters.

The maximum (not counting Con) amount of HP your 6 guys have is 64 HP. You are killed more than twice over.




Better scrying than none at all. And with pots of glibness and alter self, disguise self, and a druid with max diplomacy, very easy to get things to get fingernails, hair, etc.
yes, but not much better then nothing.


True. Unless you used a tower shield.
But then you can't attack. Which is just fine with me as I'm set to attack you as soon as you stop the total cover.


Casters would decimate the peasants.
Prove it.

Look at the Do PC classes makes armies irrelevant thread. I fully agree that high level casters can decimate entire armies in a day BUT not before level 15 at the earliest.


With invisibility, you could use all those spells with close ranges, like soften earth or ice wall to really confound the troops.
Neither of those are a great pain and the ice wall isn't very long. And remember I'm volleying my shots so it just serves to protect my front line from your guys.


Exchanging one of the druids for a bard might be a good idea. Bardic Knowledge, mad social skills, and spreading rumors about powerful sorcerors to undermine the morale of your commoner army. That way, they just break rank and flee sooner.
And my leader goes and says that its not true and you don't haev pwoerful sorcerers.

Offsetting the moral hit isn't hard.


Using skeletons as troops would be worthwile. Not a whole lot of hp, but with DR5, half the crossbow bolts are going to do squat. They don't get tired, which means they can run at 120 ft/rnd all day with whatever they can carry. They also have high initiative; corpsecrafter + nimble bones means they have something like +10 to initiative. Have them attack at will, which means that all your peasants will be waiting to volley their arrows for that guy who rolled a one, while the skeletons just closed the gap from their hidden position. Now they can only get hit by a handful of peasants who have only a +2 to attack, while they'll have an AC. That means only have the peasants will hit, and only half of those will do damage, unless they continue to volley into their own ranks.
If the skeletons exploded upon death, that'd be better, as the commoners would definitely break and run, lacking combat training.

And you can only send (with 6 level 8 wizards) like 40 skeletons at my 5,000 bowmen. Even with half of there shots being negated it doesn't matter.

Your better off buying 5 Iron Golems and sending them in. Immune to magic. Immune to any number of crossbow bolts as they have DR 15 and immunity to critical hits. Never get tired. have no upkeep cost. A Breath weapon.

Tor the Fallen
2007-03-05, 07:46 PM
You can cast from behind tower shields, you know, without exposing yourself. Well, nothing more than a finger.

Collin152
2007-03-05, 07:49 PM
1d4 strength damage won't kill anyone.



Why is this so hard to understand?
A handful of clerics that cure perhaps half a dozen people each will do NOTHING to stem the sort of plague that would rip through a 14th century community with a population density of 200 ppl/sqr mile.

Clerics are not "doctors with magic." For the purpose of large scale prevention of diseases, clerics aren't going to be nearly as useful as modern medicine. Every time they heal a person of whatever disease, he's just as likely to become infected again by whatever vector made him sick in the first place. And if it's a con damaging disease, he's even more likely.

Clerics are ineffective tools for largescale operations. The best cure is prevention. Clerics have no preventative tools at their disposal.

Dwarven experts with knowledge: architecture, craft: sewer, and profession: architect would be about 1000x more effective than clerics.
1d4 strength damage is also unlikely able to deafeat an army. Not even cripple it.
And as I said, Clerics purify Food and Drink, being the most common vectors of disease. Clerics take ranks in Heal, which allow them to know of mundane medicines as well. It's not all remove disease, and one less peasent is one less vecotr. Sure, It takes a while, but will a disease wipe out an entire city in a matter of days? I doubt so. Besides, I can't see why the fact that Remove Disease does not confer imunity means anything- Overcoming it by normal mens does not either, and that's how you insist it should be done. Some will die, yes, but while some recieve magical healing, others are being administered to by the heal skill, giving a bonus to overcome the fort saves. Magic for the weak, assistance for others.
And just because the dwarves can construct sewers, does not mean they know they should construct sewers, or that they know how it should be done. And that 1000x times was just pulle dout of the air; we have sewers, yet we still have disease. Explain yourself!

Emperor Tippy
2007-03-05, 07:55 PM
You can cast from behind tower shields, you know, without exposing yourself. Well, nothing more than a finger.

Nope. You can't attack and D&D defines spells as attacks (at least all of the ones that would be effective for you such as fireball.

Tor the Fallen
2007-03-05, 08:04 PM
1d4 strength damage is also unlikely able to deafeat an army. Not even cripple it.

Yeah, but the blindness that accompanies it might make the soldiers less effective.


And as I said, Clerics purify Food and Drink, being the most common vectors of disease.

How many clerics would you need to keep, say, 20,000 people germ free?


Clerics take ranks in Heal, which allow them to know of mundane medicines as well. It's not all remove disease, and one less peasent is one less vecotr.

For a little bit.
Until he catches it again.


Sure, It takes a while, but will a disease wipe out an entire city in a matter of days? I doubt so.

Depends on the disease. Usually it will take a matter of weeks.


Besides, I can't see why the fact that Remove Disease does not confer imunity means anything- Overcoming it by normal mens does not either, and that's how you insist it should be done. Some will die, yes, but while some recieve magical healing, others are being administered to by the heal skill, giving a bonus to overcome the fort saves. Magic for the weak, assistance for others.

I thought heal checks were substituted for fort saves.
Anyway.
By the time anyone realized that the plague was striking, it'd be too late. The way diseases spread is nonlinear. A cleric can only cure so many people per day, but only 3 or 4 more sick people than usual, or a few more people on the streets in the day, can mean the difference between normal background levels of sickness and a full blown epidemic.


And just because the dwarves can construct sewers, does not mean they know they should construct sewers, or that they know how it should be done. And that 1000x times was just pulle dout of the air; we have sewers, yet we still have disease. Explain yourself!

When was the last time you had a sister died of cholera?

Tor the Fallen
2007-03-05, 08:06 PM
Nope. You can't attack and D&D defines spells as attacks (at least all of the ones that would be effective for you such as fireball.

You can attack from behind cover, yes.

Emperor Tippy
2007-03-05, 08:07 PM
But not from behind a tower shield while using the total cover option. Read the description.

Yahzi
2007-03-05, 08:14 PM
As for the OPs upkeep costs. They are outrageously stupid and inane.
You know, that's not really necessary. They are only out of line for 0th lvl characters. They were on target for 1+ level characters. In any case I've modified them.


Salary for a professional is between 1 and 3 SP per day.
Hasn't anyone wondered why you can hire a mercenary (2 sp a day) for less than it costs to eat?


And why do you have a standing army for the whole year? I never said I did. If I wanted to I could have my people making profession checks all day every day that they aren't in battle and I would make enough to keep them fed and payed.

Basically the OP's figures are arbitrary and worthless if you wanted to actually follwo teh D&D rules.
You're the guy suggesting you can mass-produce Masterwork items for free, and then sell them to other people as if they were valuable, and you're complaining my scenario is worthless?

Yahzi
2007-03-05, 08:19 PM
5,000 human first level commoners with the feats Rapid Reload and Point Blank Shot.
I hesitate to point out that in real life, archers are powerful too, and yet historically people have not created armies that consisted solely of peasants with super shooting skills.

Even at Agincourt Henry needed his knights and footmen.

Perhaps you should test out your designs on maps, with obstacles and terrains, instead of assuming perfect visibility in all cases.

Emperor Tippy
2007-03-05, 08:26 PM
If the DM allows use activated items of fabricate and wall of iron then yes, you can create free items and become super rich in less then a week.

To feed and pay a level 1 mercenary costs (per RAW) 8 SP per day. And thats when feeding them trail rations (expensive). Total yearly cost for a level 1 mercenary or commoner is between 219 and 292 GP per year (half your rates). You need to provide each one with about 8 GP worth of items (bedroll, canteen, backpack) so you come to at most 300 GP per level 1 soldier per year. And thats with 365 days of service.

Now a profession check can make (with a 0 rank take 10 check) 5 GP per week. At 52 weeks per year each guy is turning out 260 GP (or almost supporting himself). Now if we add 5 ranks of profession (4 from skills and 1 from wisdom) each guy turns out 390 GP per year. That gives you roughly 100 GP extra per solider per year. At 5,000 soldiers that is an extra 500,000 GP per year.

Yahzi
2007-03-05, 08:26 PM
The intent of this thread, I assume, was to create armies.
Yes, to create the kind of armies you would expect to see while out wandering the world.

On the other hand, if armies are so utterly useless that we can't design any that are worth the money, then the question is answered: yes, PC classes make armies irrelevant.

I believe that to be the case, and here's why. While I have drawn up several armies, I don't think I created an army that can defeat this one:

Party of Six
6 x 7th level PCs, with 50K in permanent magic items and 10K in wands, potions, and scrolls.

Can anyone create an army using my rules that can beat this? Can anyone tell me what rules need to change to be able to create such an army?

Are armies truly a waste of money, so pathetically useless that every castle is inhabited by a handful of super-heroes? Is the army economically unjustifiable in the D&D world?

Sergeantbrother
2007-03-05, 08:30 PM
I hesitate to point out that in real life, archers are powerful too, and yet historically people have not created armies that consisted solely of peasants with super shooting skills.

Even at Agincourt Henry needed his knights and footmen.

Perhaps you should test out your designs on maps, with obstacles and terrains, instead of assuming perfect visibility in all cases.



Though, longbowmen weren't massed commoners - they would have been warriors - they were well trained. For the most part, historically, just massing as many commoners as the can and sending them at the enemy doesn't work, neither does sending out only your 6 best men.

Real ancient armies were laregly composed of warriors or fighters - depending on the time frame in history. Also archery had certain high points in history, it didn't dominate nearly as much as either D&D rules or Agincourt would indicate.

Sergeantbrother
2007-03-05, 08:34 PM
Are armies truly a waste of money, so pathetically useless that every castle is inhabited by a handful of super-heroes? Is the army economically unjustifiable in the D&D world?

This is actually one of my major pet peeves about D&D - is that major events (such as big battles) come down to masses of magic items and cheesy spells.

I think that it is much more thematically moving to have masses of first and 2nd level characters who are actually important in the battle - not just fodder for area effect spells.

Emperor Tippy
2007-03-05, 08:34 PM
I hesitate to point out that in real life, archers are powerful too, and yet historically people have not created armies that consisted solely of peasants with super shooting skills.

Even at Agincourt Henry needed his knights and footmen.

Perhaps you should test out your designs on maps, with obstacles and terrains, instead of assuming perfect visibility in all cases.



Yeah, it doesn't work so well in real life but under the D&D rules its great. And Visibility doesn't matter. I have to hit a specif square (AC 5) and mises hit one of the adjacent squares (so it doesn't really matter as misses even out so on average all squares get hit the same amount).


On the other hand, if armies are so utterly useless that we can't design any that are worth the money, then the question is answered: yes, PC classes make armies irrelevant.
Yep. They are. 10 Iron Golems is a better use of your money then a whole army of archers in army cases and getting dragons is ever better.

That is unless you are allowing magic items in abundance.


I believe that to be the case, and here's why. While I have drawn up several armies, I don't think I created an army that can defeat this one:

Party of Six
6 x 7th level PCs, with 50K in permanent magic items and 10K in wands, potions, and scrolls.

Can anyone create an army using my rules that can beat this?
Assuming no custom items it's possible but I would need a list of your items.


Can anyone tell me what rules need to change to be able to create such an army?
Following the WBL figures for one.


Are armies truly a waste of money, so pathetically useless that every castle is inhabited by a handful of super-heroes?
Pretty much.


Is the army economically unjustifiable in the D&D world?
Usually.

Yahzi
2007-03-05, 08:38 PM
If the DM allows use activated items of fabricate and wall of iron then yes, you can create free items and become super rich in less then a week.
No, Tippy. If the DM allows those items, then masterwork items are free, and no one will pay you for them.

Who is going to buy your masterwork items at masterwork prices? Why wouldn't they just go get their own items?


so you come to at most 300 GP per level 1 soldier per year. And thats with 365 days of service.
I assumed 365 days of service - it was pretty clear it was about standing armies. So my 500 GP wasn't that far off from 300. Mind you, I did correct my figures, because I agreed that they were off; I was just pointing out that you can tell me I'm wrong without being insulting about it.


Now a profession check can make (with a 0 rank take 10 check) 5 GP per week. At 52 weeks per year each guy is turning out 260 GP (or almost supporting himself). Now if we add 5 ranks of profession (4 from skills and 1 from wisdom) each guy turns out 390 GP per year. That gives you roughly 100 GP extra per solider per year. At 5,000 soldiers that is an extra 500,000 GP per year.
Who buys the stuff your soldiers are making?

Why would they work for you for 300 gp a year if they could make 390 gp a year on their own?

Who grows the food in your kingdom, since you have all of your adult males making consumer goods?

I appreciate your pointing out how the D&D rules, as written, are deeply flawed. However, we all already know that. Let's try and find a reasonable way to interpret them that allows us to construct believable, gameable, worlds.

Yahzi
2007-03-05, 08:44 PM
This is actually one of my major pet peeves about D&D - is that major events (such as big battles) come down to masses of magic items and cheesy spells.
I started this thread for 2 reasons.

1) To see if that was in fact correct; if no army can ever be useful.

2) To create sample armies that DMs might put into their world. (Wouldn't it be cool to have a book of armies for when your players ask some idiot question about the Duke's forces?)

For instance, I came up with a neat army like this (typing it from memory):

250 x 1st Warriors - Heavy Crossbows, Chain Shirt
20 x 3rd Paladins - +1 Plate and +1 Longsword, Heavy Warhorse
4 x 5th Paladins - As above, + Wand of Dispell Magic


But... if the party always wins, hands down; then why bother?

My solution to this problem is to change the one thing about D20 you're not allowed to change - the XP table. In my world, the XP cost doubles every level. This keeps levels much, much lower.

Reltzik
2007-03-05, 08:48 PM
I'm going to finish my army before seeing what anyone else posts. Still, it'll be interesting to see just how many people pay attention to minor details like administration and logistics.

Tor the Fallen
2007-03-05, 08:50 PM
A couple bards with song of the heart, even at level one, considerably boosts the effectiveness of your troops. +2 attack/damage for as long as they sing.

Sergeantbrother
2007-03-05, 08:59 PM
I started this thread for 2 reasons.

1) To see if that was in fact correct; if no army can ever be useful.

2) To create sample armies that DMs might put into their world. (Wouldn't it be cool to have a book of armies for when your players ask some idiot question about the Duke's forces?)

For instance, I came up with a neat army like this (typing it from memory):

250 x 1st Warriors - Heavy Crossbows, Chain Shirt
20 x 3rd Paladins - +1 Plate and +1 Longsword, Heavy Warhorse
4 x 5th Paladins - As above, + Wand of Dispell Magic


But... if the party always wins, hands down; then why bother?

My solution to this problem is to change the one thing about D20 you're not allowed to change - the XP table. In my world, the XP cost doubles every level. This keeps levels much, much lower.

I was thinking of similar ideas for armies. I was going to create several themed armies (I started with the undead army) but it seemed like when I was trying to think of things, every reasonable idea (like your force with crossbowmen and paladins) seemed to be much weaker than massing peasants with cheap missile weapons or spending most of the money on high level characters and magic items.

Collin152
2007-03-05, 09:49 PM
Hm. I must have been suing a variant Heal skill. My point remains. BLinding an army? Seems that would get the carriers dead pretty quickly, so still no dice.

Yahzi
2007-03-05, 10:20 PM
it seemed like when I was trying to think of things, every reasonable idea seemed to be much weaker than massing peasants with cheap missile weapons or spending most of the money on high level characters and magic items.
When the rules inhibit creativity, it's not good.

:smallmad:

Still, I think we should continue, and build a few armies for fun. Anybody have any suggested changes to support or buy costs?

Tor the Fallen
2007-03-05, 10:44 PM
Hm. I must have been suing a variant Heal skill. My point remains. BLinding an army? Seems that would get the carriers dead pretty quickly, so still no dice.

Dead from what?
Sick men don't fight, especially blinded ones.

The blinding sickness is spread by bad water.

Tor the Fallen
2007-03-05, 10:45 PM
When the rules inhibit creativity, it's not good.

:smallmad:

Still, I think we should continue, and build a few armies for fun. Anybody have any suggested changes to support or buy costs?

We need rules for an economy, logistics and tactical maneuvres.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-03-05, 10:48 PM
"Huh. The AC on the advancing troops is pretty incredible, but for clerics they don't seem to be advancing or pounding us much, and their necromancer backup seems to be just standing there. We should be able to hold the wall for a good long while against-"
"Sir! Some of the men have contracted diseases!"
"Diseases? Which?"
"Umm... all of them. Every damn single one of them."
"..."
"..."
"Find me a clean sheet. We're surrendering."

Yahzi
2007-03-05, 11:27 PM
The Barony of Monte St. Pelior
(updated to the new rules)

Militia
5,000 1st Commoner
Longspear or Sling

Guardia
200 1st Warrior
Heavy Crossbow, Longsword, Chain Shirt, Small Wooden Shield
100 quarrels

Jongleur
5 1st Bard
Harp, Longsword, Chain Shirt, Small Wooden Shield
Light Horse + Saddle

Chevelar
30 3rd Paladin
+1 Longsword, Mighty Composite Longbow,
+1 Full Plate, Large Steel Shield,
Heavy Horse + Saddle
100 arrows

Capitan
4 5th Paladin
+1 Holy Longsword, +1 Mighty Composite Longbow,
+1 Full Plate, +1 Large Steel Shield,
Mount + Saddle
Ring of Protection +1, Cloak of Charisma
Wand of Dispel Magic
100 arrows

General
1 9th Paladin
As per DMG

Cost:......984,800
Support:...99,725

Organization:
4 Foot Companies
50 Guardia, 1 Jongleur 1 Chevelar, 1 Capitan

1 Cavalry Company
26 Chevelar, 1 Jongleur, 1 General

Tactics: The army is organized into 4 foot companies of 53 men and one cavalry company of 28 men. The Jonguler rides with each company, to sing Inspire Courage.

The Guardia are trained to disperse and seek cover, or to form a tight knot that will be protected by the paladin's auras.

When facing magic users, the Capitans will liberally use their Wands of Dispell.

Half the militia have longspears and the other half have slings. The city has piles of sling stones every 10 feet, so expect to storm the walls under a constant hailstorm. The militia can form spear phalanxes behind a paladin, but the General doesn't like to do this. Dead peasants don't grow food. He will spend his troops lives before he spends his peasants.

Medical care is augmented by Lay on Hands and Remove Disease.

Collin152
2007-03-05, 11:28 PM
Dead from what?
Sick men don't fight, especially blinded ones.

The blinding sickness is spread by bad water.
Purify Food/Drink.

Yahzi
2007-03-05, 11:34 PM
We need rules for an economy, logistics and tactical maneuvres.
Hmm.

Economy - As a landlord, you get %50 of what your peasants grow. You trade that to the townsmen for goods, services, and gold. You can't afford to take more than 5% of your population out of work (so assume a limit of 1,000 full-time soldiers), because in any medieval economy a minimum of 3/4 your population is growing food. Now this does result in more than 100K gold of value, but you also have other expenses than just supporting your army. Those are abstracted out for simplicity.

Logistics - This is a defensive situation, so you just pay your support costs and don't worry about it. You can assume your castle has enough food/ammo to withstand a 3-month siege, and you can buy your archers as few as 20 arrows each.

Tactics - Well... D&D standard. But I guess that's not much help. :smallbiggrin:

Sergeantbrother
2007-03-05, 11:38 PM
Using Yahzi's New Rules :

Lollock the a hobgoblin warlord. He has an elite band of hobgoblins who help him enforce his rule over goblin rabble that are 2nd class citizens to the hobgoblins.

Lollock wears banded armor, uses a mighty composite longbow (400 arrows), has a heavy warhorse with studded leather barding, a large shield, a lance, and a bastard sword. He is a level 9 fighter (1,322 gold)

Lollock's 200 hobgoblin soldiers are fighters. They are equiped with banded armor, long swords, large shields, lances, and composite longbows. They ride heavy warhorses with leather barding. (564,400 gp)

Lollock has an additional 200 hobgoblin archers who are warriors. They have studded leather armor, long bows, 200 arrows, and long swords. (225,000)

In addition to hobgoblin fighters and warriors, there are a large number of goblins (peasants) in the army.

There are 2000 goblin militia x-bowmen armed with heavy x-bows, leather armor, 100 bolts, and clubs. ( 140,000 gp)

There are an additional 2000 goblin militia spearmen. They are armed with long spears and studded leather armor. (60,000 gp)

This army costs a total of 990,500 gp
70,000 gp support





Using my rules for the same army :

Lollock the a hobgoblin warlord. He has an elite band of hobgoblins who help him enforce his rule over goblin rabble that are 2nd class citizens to the hobgoblins.

Lollock wears banded armor, uses a mighty composite longbow (400 arrows), has a heavy warhorse with studded leather barding, a large shield, a lance, and a bastard sword. He is a level 9 fighter (1,322 gold)

Lollock's 400 hobgoblin soldiers are fighters. They are equiped with banded armor, long swords, large shields, lances, and composite longbows. They ride heavy warhorses with leather barding. (428,800 gp)

Lollock's eldest son, Lollock the Lesser, is a 4th level barbarian. He is armed with a great sword and studded leather armor. Lollock the Lesser leads a group of 400 barbarians with the same weapons. (202,575)

Lollock has an additional 400 hobgoblin archers who are warriors. They have studded leather armor, long bows, 200 arrows, and long swords. (88,000)

Lollock's second eldest son, Kasharga, is an excellent archer and leads his father's archer band. He is a level 3 fighter, wears studded leather armor, carries a mighty composite longbow, a short sword, and a long sword. (15,700)

In addition to hobgoblin fighters and warriors, there are a large number of goblins (peasants) in the army.

There are 2500 goblin x-bowmen armed with heavy x-bows, leather armor, 100 bolts, and clubs. (175,000 gp)

There are an additional 2500 goblin spearmen. They are armed with long spears and studded leather armor. (75,000 gp)

For a total cost of 986,397 gp
Upkeep : 95,550

Reltzik
2007-03-06, 01:39 AM
Okay, here's a rough outline of my army. As you'll see, I haven't gone into the requisite level of detail yet.


The Barony:

The barony in question is an island with good supplies of wood and plenty of open terrain. The favored weapons are the longspear and the crossbow.

The first Saturday of every month is declared a holiday, complete with festivities, and the starring attraction are a series of events designed to train peasants in the use of both crossbow and longspear. For the latter, groups of thirty brace for surprise "charges" of fearsomely painted scarecrows swung by ropes, with points awarded for accuracy of the strike, how many are "killed" before they reach the line, formation discipline, and not flinching. For the former, contests are held for accuracy against fixed targets, scarecrows swinging laterally, and scarecrows swinging towards the shooter, with a heavy emphasis on speed of reloading. Both crossbows and spears are provided for the event and surrendered afterwards. The populace is permitted, and encouraged, to substitute their own reach and ranged weaponry, and quite a few bring their own bows and various sorts of polearms.

The crest of the barony prominently displays a dog and a falcon. Both are bred extensively in the realm and trained for all manner of purposes; the falcon is a symbol of the nobility, but the dog is usually respected. It's a rare family who doesn't own one or the other as pets, and most find some practical use.

The House Marines:

The main offensive force are the Marines. This is a force of 300 men, equipped to go anywhere and do anything. By default, all are level 1 experts trained in Handle Animal, and with a variety of cross skills. Every crew has a variety of linguists, traders, diplomats, medics, engineers, smiths, leatherworkers, carpenters, and more. They are organized into six longship crews of 50. Though not capable of invasion or defeating armies outright, they make effective strike, raiding, and skirmishing forces. Each marine is issued leather armor, a heavy crossbow, 50 bolts, a pair of daggers, a sickle, and their secret weapon: 10 ten-foot poles! (More on these in a bit.) Obviously a soldier isn't able to carry all of this; much of it is stowed on the ship. Each is also partnered with a military animal; any given ship has 40 wardogs and 10 warfalcons.

Wardogs are trained with a great many tricks, usually by their partners. They can guard a camp site, and assist in hunting or tracking. Their main purpose, though, is combat. They are trained to sic the enemy, with a particular eye for bringing down cavalry. The breed is fast, large, but low-built, making difficult targets for cavalry weapons. Combat "commands" are issued through a series of horn signals; the horns vary by unit, and each dog is familiar with his own unit's horn and can distinguish it from others. The main commands are sic, pursue, and return (a combination of Down and Come). Most ships' "packs" have their own social order and learn to fight together. Before a given battle, dogs are given scents of a strongly odored plant -- rosemary, sage, and peppermint are all common choices. The baron's forces wear wreaths and garlands of the chosen plant during battle. Not only does this help them identify one another, but it also lets the dogs know who is a friend and who isn't. I figured that the cost of such an extensively trained creature would be similar to a riding dog, 150 gp per animal.

Warfalcons are a bit less diverse in training, but they have their uses. They only know four tricks -- hunt, attack (and immediately return), scout, and carry. Scouting birds are pointed in a general direction and take off, scanning for ships or large bodies of people. If they find such a target, they circle it for a while and then return. Birds told to carry are pointed to a particular target and given an object to deliver -- usually a scroll to a battle flag -- and then wait a few minutes to be given an item to bring back -- usually a return message. I figured that the rarity of falcons, and the leather gauntlets, leashes, and hoods required to work with them, also put them at 150 gp per animal.

At sea, Wardogs don't contribute much and mostly ride out the battle under the rowing benches, though they do provide a nasty surprise in boarding action. Though trained in ramming, the marines prefer to stand off and shoot with crossbows (often smeared with burning pitch), a fore-mounted balista, and a rear-mounted light catapult. Warfalcons are pointed to particular individuals on ships, such as captains, drummers, or casters, and sent to harrass them, or else deliver messages between ships.

On land, the marines prefer stealth and mobility to combat. They are trained to attack an army's supply lines and support bases, rather than engage the army itself. However, they are not afraid to harrass the army with hit-and-run crossbow volleys, rogue falcon attacks, or catapult stones hurtled into the enemy camp at night. If forced into a fight, they prefer to fight on prepared ground, establishing trenches and field fortifications. With their massed crossbow fire, prepared ground, and warfalcons, they are more than a match for most forces equal to their numbers. The sickles serve double duty for clearing away foliage. The key factor, though, are the wardogs. Few cavalry charges can endure when faced with a countercharge of fourty wolfen hounds, especially not when those hounds have been trained to raise a horse-panicking howl as they rush forward. The wardogs also play a key role in pursuing and scattering defeated foes.

Marines are more than capable of destroying ill-manned garrisons. The catapults and balistae can be brought with the crew, though few crews will opt to carry them far. The rams on the longships are detachable, and serve double-duty for breaking down gates or hammering cornerstones out of walls. However, if the garirison is well-manned and alert, they know better than to make the attempt, as they do not have the numbers for it.

The Marine's secret weapon, though, is the 10-foot pole. A Marine can do anything with a 10-foot pole. He will use it to measure depth near shore, or pole the bottom of a river. He can push his ship away from dock with it, or use it to (literally) stave off a ship of attempted boarders. He will bundle thirty of them together for an outrigger to brace his ship in bad weather, or steady it for crossbow and balista fire. He can plant it in the ground and have it be a flagpole for the unit banner, or as a range marker. He will attach a (fairly expensive) spearhead to one of the specially-cut ends and have a longspear. Or he can afix his sickle instead, and have a handy hook instead, useful for pulling near port or drawing in a dangling rope. He can saw it in half and afix a spadehead, producing the shovel which he uses to make his field fortificiations. Or he can sharpen either half and use the spikes as part of a hunting trap, or to enhance those same fortifications. Or he can combine two poles, a third pole cut into one-foot tenths, and a lot of nails to produce a ladder. Such is the marine's love of the pole that many of them make a point of using quarterstaves that are nothing more than half-poles. However, most marines will readilly agree that those who use the poles to greatly inhance their jump modifiers are just bat**** insane. Still, it's a very versatile tool, serving so many functions as to more than make up for the fact that five hundred poles take up a significant chunk of the longship's cargo capacity.

The Militia

In times of invasion, this peasantry is assembled into a militia. There are spears, leather armor, heavy crossbows, and sets of 20 bolts for 1500 men. These are broken down into squads of 50, each led by a lvl 1 bard with 100 gp in starting equipment, usually his own crossbow and some sort of melee weapon, a wand of magic missiles, and a warfalcon. If one of the enemy starts flying over the battlefield casting fireballs, these guys drop everything and simultaneously magic-missile him to death. The milita is backed up by a field artillery of 30 light catapults and 30 balistae, hauled by mules. (Catapult crews place wagers on who can hit enemy spellcasters the soonest.) The milita can move quickly in their light armor and prefer a shoot-and-retreat strategy. If worse comes to worst, though, they will sling their crossbows over their shoulders and ready their spears for the charge.


The Riders:

We've all read Order of the Stick, right? What could be more silly than a halfling on a daschund? However, when you have twenty-six level 1/1 fighter/rogue halflings on wardogs, each equipped with chainmail, composite longbows, lances, and greatswords, and practiced in combining their mounted combat feats with flanking tactics and sneak attacks, you've got a nasty force for swarming over high-level elites. That's exactly what they're used for.


The Baron:

By my count, I've got over 25% of my starting money to burn. Even putting aside 15% of this to the clerks, mules, carts, supply barges, spare parts, and so forth needed to make an army work, that still leaves 100000 in equipment for the Baron. I'm not going to draw him up, though; I'd still match this force against the 6 level 7 PCs even without the baron. I will, however, decide that he's a druid, given how that works so very well with this army's feel.

Yahzi
2007-03-06, 02:10 AM
Remington County

50.....Rifleman...1st Rogue
......................Dagger,
......................Studded Leather Armor of Shadow,
......................Boots of Elvenkind,
......................Wand of Magic Missle (1st)

.5.....Grenadier..3rd Rogue
......................Dagger,
......................Studded Leather Armor of Shadow,
......................Boots of Elvenkind,
......................Wand of Fireball (6th)
......................Ring of Invisibility
......................Wings of Flying

.1......Master of Shadows...9th Rogue
.....................As DMG

Cost:..........987,235
Support:......97,500

(I had to spend half the budget on extra support. If you assume a wand is good for 2 years instead of 1, then you can afford 100 Riflemen and six Grenadiers.)

Tactics: While there are few of these soldiers, they keep the populace under control. It's hard to plot a coup, or even just a resistance, when the police could literally be listening in from anywhere.

A squad consists of 10 Riflemen and 1 Grenadier, but the smallness of this force means all soldiers are comfortable working with each other. They can rapidly and fluidly re-organize as the situation demands.

Typically the riflemen will advance under cover of stealth, until they find a good hiding spot. Then, using bird calls and other methods, they will coordinate their attacks to fire in the same round, at the same target. Next round they will slip away, to another already-located hiding spot, repeating this tactic until the enemy is destroyed. The invisible sniping is usually sufficient to demoralize ordinary soldiers into fleeing. If not, the Grenadiers can destroy entire units in a single shot.

The Grenadiers will reserve their attacks until they are maximally effective, waiting for the enemy to get used to the sniping. Then they will bombard the enemy with shock and awe. It is not uncommon for 2-3 Grenadiers to fire in the same round at the same spot. They can fly and turn invisible at will. Think of them as air strikes called in by the ground troops.

The ruler will not hesitate to spend Riflemen's lives. They are, after all, rather easy to replace, as long as their gear survives intact. The Grenadiers, however, will be used with extreme caution. Their only defense lies in stealth, and they will use this to the utmost.

Indeed, invading the castle will probably be met with no resistance - the place may even appear to be abandoned. Until half your troops are inside. Then the porticulus will drop, and your men will be attacked from hidden passages with traps and missiles.

(Note: I'm not very happy with this force. If they could afford Magic Missile wands of 5th caster level, then they would be serious. Otherwise I think it's pretty easy for a party to neutralize their only effective attack.)

Yahzi
2007-03-06, 02:23 AM
He is a level 9 fighter (1,322 gold)
He's got way cooler stuff than that - he gets 36KGP as per the Wealth By Level from the DMG. :smallbiggrin:

A totally cool army. I have to admit - 200 hobgoblin heavy cavalry sounds like it would cream my Gaurdia!

All of those guys are 1st level, though, right? I think you should toss in a few healers...


Using my rules for the same army :Could you recap your version of the rules? It's just the different prices for levels and support, right?

Eventually I'll redo everybody's army descriptions in a standard format, for easy reference.

This is looking good!

Yahzi
2007-03-06, 02:25 AM
Okay, here's a rough outline of my army.
Experts, Halfling dog-riders, and Bards... that's pretty creative!

I can't wait to see what else people come up with. :smallbiggrin:

Sergeantbrother
2007-03-06, 03:22 AM
My rules were just slightly different costs for upkeep and upgrading.

My main reason for wanting to change the rules was that peasants with crossbows are too cost efficient. Since it costs you 1000 to change a commoner into a warrior, it means that you can have 20 peasants with heavy crossbows for every warrior you have - so the warriors can't compete. That is why I wanted to change it to 100 gp per warrior, since then maybe having a single warrior might be worth 2 commoners with heavy x-bows.

Anyway, here's a repost of my version of the rules :


Cost to upgrade a commoner to a warrior, aristocrat, or expert : 100 gp

Cost to upgrade a commoner to an adept, rogue, or fighter : 250 gp

Cost to upgrade a commoner to another class : 500 gp

This makes it cheap enough so that somebody might actually want to have a group of warriors face off against a mob of commoners.

Make the rules so that you have to pay for everything, nothing can be crafted by experts or magic users or anything - that is just looking for loopholes. Just like no using the money to hire somebody to cast a spell or anything like that.

Furthermore, lets reduce the cost significantly for upkeep. Lets make commoners cost nothing - they are free. Unfortunately, every person who is combat ready (instead of working the fields) costs 5 gp per year each. For example, that 100,000 per year comes from the labor of your peasants - so if 10,000 peasants are armed with slings, even though they cost nothing to equip, they can't work the fields and thus you're out 50,000 gp per year. So this is a reason not just to arm any left over peasants you have with slings and clubs because it will reduce your ability to generate income.

Furthermore, lets count warriors as mercenaries who get paid 2 sp per day (per level lets say) and lets assume that they only serve you 125 days a year so that's 25 gold per year per level for a warrior. Lets double the amount for fighters, rogues, and adepts for 50 gp per pevel per year and double it again for other PC classes - 100 gp per level per year.

Thus if we have 5000 peasants and 1000 warriors, the total cost in upkeep would be 55,000 gp per year - 30,000 for the 6,000 people who aren't working your fields and 25,000 for 1000 1st level warriors.

Yahzi
2007-03-06, 10:34 AM
My rules were just slightly different costs for upkeep and upgrading.
Those are good points. I agree that 1,000 is too much for an NPC class. I'll change that to 100 for any NPC class, and 1,000 for any PC class.

What do those mercenaries do while they're not working for you? Why, they become the bandits you raised an army to protect yourself against.. :smallbiggrin:

Also, I think your numbers will generate armies that are too large for the target populace. 3/4 of the people really do have to be growing food all the time, which leaves 5K to do all your crafts. Only 1,300 of them will be adult males. Taking more than 20% into the front-line army seems... unlikely.

However, it's pretty much arbitrary. You can always double/half the size of base population by DM fiat.

Tor the Fallen
2007-03-06, 12:40 PM
Purify Food/Drink.

How many clerics of what level do you need to purify water for 20,000 people? at a cubic ft/lvl, you're going to need a lot.

It'd be better to have a custom item that does that at will, or a water system attached to an endless decanter of water.

Tor the Fallen
2007-03-06, 12:43 PM
Hobgoblins have an LA.
Do you have to pay for it?

Emperor Tippy
2007-03-06, 01:20 PM
I have a slightly different challenge. Build an invading army. The reason for this is it actually requires more tactics wise then just getting as many crossbowmen as possible. You have to deal with supply lines and enemy fortifications.

Rules:
Population:
10 Million men, women and children. 20% (2,000,000) of the population is men fit for combat (Group A). Another 20% is men and women of older venerable age (Group B). The next 20% is children (Group C). The last 40% is made up of the women, those physically incapable of millitary duty, and those in positions that have to be filled (Group D).

Economy:
Annual GDP: 2,500,000,000 GP
Annual expenses: 1,900,000,000 GP (1,750,000,000 of that is required for population sustainability)

Maximum Military Budget: 600,000,000 GP


Group A produces 30% of the GDP and requires 20% of the annual expenses
Group B produces 15.2% of the GDP and requires 20% of the annual expenses
Group C produces 7.6% of the GDP and requires 20% of the annual expenses.
Group D produces 47.2% of the GDP and requires 40% of the annual expenses.

A Group A member who becomes a solider stops producing and stops requiring any of the annual expense money but he has to be supported out of the millitary budget.

Location:
Your nation has a continent the size of Australia all to its self and it is a 240 miles to the shores of the continent that you are to invade.

Other Rules
You lose some of your men to desertion and accidents over time. This rate is based on level, class, and current situation. For every level of a unit above first reduce the desertion rate by 1%.

The following rates are per week and are for level 1 characters in peacetime, training, and non-combat duty (Class 1 losses):
Commoners - 10% per week
Warriors - 1% per week
Other NPC classes - 5% per week
Fighters - 3% per week
Barbarians - 7% per week
Other PC classes - 5% per week

The following are the rates for being on the march but not actually in combat (Class 2 losses):
Commoners - 15% per week
Warriors - 1% per week
Other NPC classes - 10% per week
Fighters - 1% per week
Barbarians - 1% per week
Other PC classes - 3% per week

The following are the rates for when in battle (Class 3 losses):
Commoners - 20% per battle
Warriors - 10% per battle
Other NPC classes - 15% per battle
Fighters - 8% per battle
Barbarians - 9% per battle
Other PC classes - 12% per battle

The Class 1 losses are replaced as lost and don't reduce troop strength but they do affect the armies upkeep cost. 25% of the units equipment is lost with them and needs to be accounted for in the replacement costs as well.

The Class 2 losses are replaced but at 150% of there original cost and only 90% of these losses are replaceable in a timely manner. 50% of the lost units equipment needs to be replaced and should be accounted for in the replacement costs as well.

The Class 3 losses can be replaced at 200% of there original cost but you may only replace 50% of the class 3 losses in a timely manner. 50% of the lost units equipment needs to be replaced and should be accounted for in the replacement cost.

You can't get spells of 7th level or higher in any way.

Wands and scrolls can be purchased at 75% of the DMG listed price and non reusable custom magic items can be created at 125% of the Item Creation Guidelines price (sling bullets of fireball woudl cost 937.5 GP each for example)

Objective:
Your objective is to create an army to invade and counter the enemy continent. The enemy has fortifications and a navy along with its own troops. Assume that they have 75% of the gold that you have with minimal supply lines and 10% of your desertion rate (they are defending their home nation).

Troop costs:
All costs are for a first level unit who has no equipment
Commoners - 25 GP
Warrior - 100 GP
Other NPC classes - 150 GP
Fighter - 250 GP
Barbarian - 200 GP
Sorcerer - 500 GP
Cleric - 600 GP
Bard - 400 GP
Ranger - 400 GP
Monk - 400 GP
Druid - 600 GP
Rogue - 500 GP
Paladin - 750 GP
Wizard - 1,000 GP

If you want the rate for a non core class ask me and I will post in but full caster classes are at least 500 GP

The first 2 levels can be bought at a rate of 3 GP per XP.
All other levels are bought at a rate of 5GP per XP.

Logistics:
Each solider needs 1 Trail ration and 2 gallons of water per day. And each horse needs 36 gallons of water and feed (in the PHB) per day. Your force can forage for enough food to feed 12,000 soldiers per day if it moves at half speed.

You have a 10% chance per week of finding a source of clean water large enough to supply 130,000 men or 10,000 horses for 1 week. Every week the source has a cumulative 5% chance of becoming undrinkable.

Lets see what you can come up with and if you have any questions just ask and I'll be glad to answer them.

Tor the Fallen
2007-03-06, 01:30 PM
Quick point about army size- For Alexander to cross the desert with 60k-70k troops, it required 50k+ pack animals, for a 4 day journey.

50,000 donkeys. That's a lot of ass.

My point?
It's extremely unlikely that you'd be able to invade with 2,000,000 troops, let alone 20,000, as the logistics to summon all those people to one place, quickly, would be impossible before the advent of the railroad.

There have been exceptions in antiquity, of course.

Emperor Tippy
2007-03-06, 01:53 PM
I know. I was waiting for someone to say "I get 2 million soldiers" so I could say "Thats great, now how are they getting across the ocean?"

100,000 infantry require 100,000 pounds of food per day and 200,000 gallons of water per day.

A Decanter of Endless water can supply the water in 12 hours on the geyser setting. So you turn it on each night and resupply the water for the day.

A sailing ship can bring 300,000 pounds of food per trip. That is enough to feed your army for 3 days. Each ship can deliver food every 10 days (the continents are 5 days apart). So you need at a minimum 4 sailing ships doing nothing except making food runs to keep your army fed.

A wagon can carry 3,000 pounds of food if pulled by 2 mules and travels 16 miles per day (or less). You need to deliver 100,000 pounds of food per day to the front which requires 34 wagons of food arriving every day. If the front is 16 miles from port (a very small distance) you would need 68 wagons at the minimum to keep your army supplied with food. Every additional 16 miles requires another 68 wagons of food.

And that isn't accounting for the mules food and assumes a single army of 100,000 not multiple smaller armies.

Sergeantbrother
2007-03-06, 08:49 PM
I have a weird idea. Maybe instead of trying to come up with perfect prices to make an army balanced and pinching every penny and buying the efficient combinations of soldiers, or calculating the price of supply lines or how much troops get paid, how about not worrying about money at all?

What I mean by this is maybe we could do something like Reltzik, creating a theme for a small kingdom, barony, etc. and creating an army that appropriately fits that theme and is of a reasonable size and power level for that sized community.

And the ideas wont be compared by pure power level or cost efficiency (using D&D's somewhat messed up prices) but rather on how well the army matches the theme of the kingdom and if the army's composition is reasonable. Then perhaps there could be some discussion of the various armies fighting, not as a compition between us to see who has created the most powerful, but rather as an interesting though excersize.

Or maybe I'm just crazy for suggesting this :smalleek:

Collin152
2007-03-06, 08:58 PM
Now THAT'S a good Idea.

Yahzi
2007-03-06, 09:31 PM
not worrying about money at all?
Your suggestion is clearly what WotC intends.

Use the rules to build the scenario you want; not create scenarios that the rules suggest.

In other words, when the player says, "What do those 200 goblins eat?," the DM says, "You're 5th lvl, so that's how many goblins there have to be to make a dangerous encounter."

When the players say, "Ok, we're gonna build a castle and hire some troops... here's how much money we have," the DM rolls some dice, deducts a random amount of gold, and gives them a random number of troops.

That's certainly a valid way to play. But it's not the way I like to play. I hate it when the DM says, "These NPCs can do X but you have to do Y," and vice versa. If it works for the NPCs, it should work for the players, and if it works for the players, it should work for the NPCs.

Otherwise we're right back to rule-zero: "The DM is responsible for making up literally everything on the spur of the moment, because we provided no rules that could be extended to cover new situations, and in fact the rules we did make are self-contradictory."

Why even have rules, then?

I cheered when D&D finally gave NPCs stats and classes; I still resent the fact that there are such a thing as NPC classes. I don't want a set of rules for a dungeon; I want a set of rules that describe a world my players can explore. I want to let my players invent things, too, instead of running everything through my ad-hoc judgment. I want to know why my character can single-handedly defeat any army, and yet people keep hiring armies anyway...

You're not crazy for suggesting an artistic approach. I'm crazy for trying to find a way to make D&D make even a lick of sense.

But I'm gonna keep trying. If you want to just post your ideas, I'll try to express them in my cost structure. It helps to keep things similar, for easier comparison.

Yahzi
2007-03-06, 09:36 PM
I have a slightly different challenge.
Um... Tippy, nobody plays games with 10,000,000 people in them.

I'd prefer to focus on building smaller units, that are suitable for PC adventures and interactions.

And your rules are... complex. Different rates of desertion by class? Sounds a bit rough on the DM. :smallbiggrin:


Logistics:
Each solider needs 1 Trail ration and 2 gallons of water per day. And each horse needs 36 gallons of water and feed (in the PHB) per day.
This is a good idea. I'll try to work in some quick rules for mounting your invasion.

Emperor Tippy
2007-03-06, 09:50 PM
Um... Tippy, nobody plays games with 10,000,000 people in them.

Ever play in the standard Eberron setting? Sharn alone has over 2 million people in it.

And 10 million people per nation is low. France was 14 million.


I'd prefer to focus on building smaller units, that are suitable for PC adventures and interactions.
You said you wanted an army built. And they are still suitable for PC interactions.


And your rules are... complex. Different rates of desertion by class? Sounds a bit rough on the DM. :smallbiggrin:
Not really. Just subtract that percent of the army each week. With large samples it will stick with the average.

And the replacements are were the upkeep comes in. You kinda accounted for it in upkeep costs but those figures aren't really correct and don't deal with a lot of the upkeep.


This is a good idea. I'll try to work in some quick rules for mounting your invasion.

Logistics makes up about 90% of any war. It is almost the most relevant part of war.

And remember, you have to account for the weight of the food when moving it to the lines. Each wagon costs 400 GP plus the 2 mules. A sailing ship is around 15,000 GP without a crew.

Reltzik
2007-03-06, 10:14 PM
I have a weird idea. Maybe instead of trying to come up with perfect prices to make an army balanced and pinching every penny and buying the efficient combinations of soldiers, or calculating the price of supply lines or how much troops get paid, how about not worrying about money at all?

What I mean by this is maybe we could do something like Reltzik, creating a theme for a small kingdom, barony, etc. and creating an army that appropriately fits that theme and is of a reasonable size and power level for that sized community.

For the record, I WAS worrying about money. For example, each shipful of marines, including their equipment but excluding their rations (which would have been part of their upkeep) cost about 75 thousand gp. The cost for each peasant's equipment was 70 gp, and the cost for the bard to lead each squad of 30 was 2100.

And I didn't start with a theme and go from there. That can be a decent way to go, but it's also the sort of mindset that leads to "THE DUNGEON OF FIRE-TYPE CREATURES OMG!" and other cheap gimmicks. Instead, I started with trying to figure out an effective fighting force (the marines) and how they would be equipped at that technology level. (I'd actually come up with SOMETHING like this idea when I was playing King Brian in a 1000 AD historical geopolitical game. Ireland would have owned the world if that game had survived.) I didn't select the sickle because it was a druidy weapon, I selected it because it was a three in one tool -- clear terrain, use with pole as a boat hook, and use as a weapon. I didn't come up with warhounds and warfalcons because they parallel a druid's animal companion, but rather because of the roles they played -- countering horse, pursuit, swift scouting, swift messaging and coordination -- and is within the reach of the technology level. It was only after I had drawn up the marines, and the peasant levies, and the halfling riders, that I realized a theme had emerged and a druid should be the leader. Form followed function.

What I would like to see is some way of actually balancing baronies. Obviously, for example, if one of two otherwise-identical baronies has good metal deposits, it probably has an advantage over the second. But what if one has good metal deposits, but the other has twice the population? And what about more subtle concerns, like a disobedient peasantry that won't follow any order, save the order to form skirmishing partisan units to harrass any invader, which they would do with a gusto and to perfection, versus a nobility which obeys direct orders but is always scheming and must always be guarded against? Which social system, if either, provides the greater advantage?

Also, I'd like to see us work out an actual economic system. Weapons cost the same everywhere? WRONG! They'll cost less near iron mines, and the price will go up the further the metal needs transporting, unless you have some laws affecting that. Let's figure out just how much those costs go up by.

.... and on that note, I need to go start another thread for this topic. Or maybe two other threads. Or maybe one thread, followed at its conclusion by a second.

Edit: Economy thread started here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36788).