Mystic Thurge problem

[lhilas]

Hi everyone, so not so recently I started a new campagin, and one of my players went with cleric, which was fine, until he opened a wizard and went Mysthic Thurge. The problem started last session, when he (as a level 10 character who can cast both 4th level wizard and cleric spells) managed to ruin any of my attempts to throw an encounter at the group. At the start while they were investigating an underground lair belong to some Bugbears they found out the tribe is under attack by another underground-bugbear tribe, they were requested to help the bugbear and in return they will recieve sanctuary from an evil vampire looking to enslave them (it's a long story) , instead of helping the tribe they decided to escape, and the mystic thurge dimension door'd them back to the surface - 300 feet above them. Afterward the remaining of the tribe who escaped as well wanted to get revenge on the group but the Mystic Thurge simply used divination in order to escape them as well, and the entire group traveled to another continent. Now not only that we spent 4 and a half hours session on talking and them doing pretty much nothing I also have around 10 pages full of warriors and wizards stats that I prepared for the campagin in the previous continent, while the players obviously aren't going to encounter alot of drow in the elven forest :smallfurious: ...
Any ideas on how to persuade them to go back to the human continent - in which I have prepared entire organizations and guilds and what not ? Also how can I block things like dimension door and pre-battle divinations without looking like a complete a-hole ? Don't get me wrong - I reallly want the group to have fun and make their own choices, but in this rate the group is only getting themselves more and more enemies with zero friends and I really don't wish for this to end in TPK... :smallfrown:

[Threadnaught]

Throw a straight Cleric or Wizard at the party. Dispel his Spells with superior Caster Level.

Alternatively, throw something with Spell Resistance at them.

[Dalebert]

It's a valid (maybe even common?) problem that there are spells that kind of break the game but I feel like the thread is mis-titled. If you had a cleric and a wizard as is common in many parties, you'd have the same problem or worse. Then you'd have two characters with those spells who could be using twice as many in combat, unlike the MT who has on one action per round to cast a spell and who is casting them at a lower level than if two characters were doing it.

[Chronos]

And even if this guy were just a single-classed caster with nobody else in the party, he'd still be able to cause you at least half of the problems he's causing now, but he would have started three levels earlier.

[Threadnaught]

I can sort out all your problems right now.

First of all, you create a few smaller organizations on this new continent that as they slowly get picked off out of nowhere, open up communications more often and take precautions against Scry and Die tactics. Having each Commander be Vecna-Blooded makes it so your Cleric/Wizard is unable to prepare for them specifically.
Better yet, these anti Scry and Die groups could be the black ops' end of whatever new group you make.

In order to shut down Teleport, treat the most important parts of the main bases of operations for each organization, as being Dimensionally Locked, or build an organization in an area that blocks Teleportation anyway, though blocking Teleportation outright is bad for escape if things go wrong.


If the Bugbears on the other Continent are able to learn the the PCs are on another continent and they still really want revenge, then they might as well follow. Eventually, and not all at once mind you, the PCs need to be able to teleport back home into a trap.


Those ten pages of stats you have? Make more, and make those ones more powerful, as the PCs dilly dally in the woods. Send the weaker, lower ranked new member of the main organization to the other continent in a campaign of conquest. The PCs may be able to hold them off, but the only way to truly stop these attacks would be to go back to the Human continent and destroy the leadership. Without the resources to back up an invasion, or guaranteed profits when it is completed, the whole thing would just collapse.



If they're on another continent, you should either make the one they left appeal to them more than the new one, or give them something to do on the new one. It's very simple.


And lastly, if they're intent on being jerks and turning every NPC into a mortal enemy, then you're going to have to have all of their enemies try to kill them off at some point.

[Segev]

The drow can be re-used here; have them be infiltration/invasion forces attacking this elven continent for revenge or expansion or something.

You're not going to prevent them from using magics like this. This isn't a Mystic Theurge problem; this is a mid-level game problem. Just remember that enemies have access to the same kinds of tactics. If the PCs are fleeing, it's possible to have an enemy spellcaster cast Dimension Door as well to follow them. If not knowing where they're going is a problem, then Locate Person might help, or they could simply have guards keeping lookout that pass word when they see them.

But more importantly...plan for the PCs to have good "bug-out" capability from here on out. Don't expect challenges to be challenging if they rely on restricting the party's ability to leave at will. That can work sometimes, but it should be the rarity. Remember, too, that NPCs start being able to do the same thing. So PCs might not get as many kills as foes retreat to fight another day.

If the party is a real nuisance to a particular group, "scry-and-die" tactics on the part of the NPCs are not inappropriate. That could be another way to bring the threats from the old continent over, if those threats have reason to pursue the PCs.

But the major key is twofold: make the PCs' objectives require getting TO a defended location they cannot simply magic their way past the guardians of, and make the PCs need to DEFEND something they cannot simply dim-door away with them (locations, again, are good for this). Make the objectives more than "get out with our lives," and make them harder to get to than "dim-door to the other side of this door through which we can see."

Dimension Door is dangerous if used to 'port blindly; solid objects are hazardous. I'm not suggesting being a jerk about it, but if your previously-established setup has solid objects where they want to go... This can happen just by making sure they don't have the whole zone mapped out thoroughly; they now have to be careful how they jump around until they do.

[AttilaTheGeek]

I'm going to repeat some words of wisdom that have served me well in dealing with all sorts of campaign problems.


In-character problems should be solved with in-character solutions, and out-of-character problems should be solved with out-of-character solutions.

Since this is an OOC problem- the character is, either accidentally or intentionally, circumventing your campaign plans and making it more difficult to DM the game- it should be solved with an OOC solution. Placing high-level casters in your encounters just to shut down your Mystic Theurge could make your player feel unfairly targeted, especially if they don't see how much their spells make the game more difficult to run.

The most involved solution is just to take the MT's spells into account when designing your encounters, but that can be impractically difficult to plan for as a DM. The opposite solution, which is easy but heavy-handed, is just to ban certain spells (Dimension Door) or ask the player to redesign their character. I would recommend something between the two: have a conversation with the MT's player as equals, and say something like "hey, I know you like using all these cool spells, but they make it really hard to DM for. Could you please turn it down or play a different character?" Remember, the player wants the game to be fun for everyone, so you should be able to get some sort of gentleman's agreement as a compromise.

[sleepyphoenixx]

That's normal mid-level tactics. Equally normal are enemies who are prepared for them.

Protection from divination (Mage's Sanctum, Nondetection), teleportation into/out of sensitive areas (Forbiddance, Hallow + Dimensional Anchor), actively scrying for known threats and similar things should be standard procedure in a world where magic is common. You have to take that into account when designing encounters of the appropiate level or, as mentioned, design objectives that can't be solved with those things.

As for them them making enemies everywhere: without consequences they'll never learn better. Any group they piss off can hire a team of assassins who can use scry & die tactics to get at the party no matter where they run to, unless they protect themselves. Running away only changes the battlefield, not the enemies.

If you play in a high-magic environment (which is what standard D&D is) you have to take magic into account, the same way you'd take technology into account in a more modern setting. It's an integral part of the world.

[Psyren]

Keeping them from popping out of caverns is easy - make them deeper. If they try to "state a direction" - require Dungeoneering or Survival checks, because underground can easily be disorienting.

Also: "Areas of strong physical or magical energy may make teleportation more hazardous or even impossible." While this is part of the Teleport spell, it could easily refer to all [teleportation] effects, especially since Teleport is more powerful than Dimension Door yet has this limitation. So once they're far enough underground, put seismic/geothermic activity, or an underground river nearby to mess with their attempts to escape. You don't have to block the teleport entirely, but you can throw them off course or limit its range - let it move them closer to the surface, but they still have to trek the rest of the way out. Such a place would even be a logical location for a subterranean foe to build their base, because it naturally prevents them from being targeted by teleporting raiders.

Basically it takes a little ingenuity to challenge high-level casters. If that's too much work or you feel incapable, then and only then should you ask the player to reroll or pick different spells.


Placing high-level casters in your encounters just to shut down your Mystic Theurge could make your player feel unfairly targeted, especially if they don't see how much their spells make the game more difficult to run.

Nonsense, it's perfectly fair. Level 10+ casters are a rarity and thus notorious, and it's only reasonable that anyone intelligent (which Drow certainly are) who is expecting to gun for the party will prepare ways of countering them specifically. Even in FR such a spellcaster would likely be a high-ranking member of some organization like the Harpers, or at least known to the major players.


That's normal mid-level tactics. Equally normal are enemies who are prepared for them.

Exactly.

[AttilaTheGeek]

Nonsense, it's perfectly fair. Level 10+ casters are a rarity and thus notorious, and it's only reasonable that anyone intelligent (which Drow certainly are) who is expecting to gun for the party will prepare ways of countering them specifically.

I agree, it is fair. I only wanted to point out that the player might not feel the same way.

[Segev]

I agree, it is fair. I only wanted to point out that the player might not feel the same way.

One way to address this is to reward the player emotionally at the same time you rig things mechanically against him. Make it clear ahead of time that he's gained renown, and that people know who he is and pay attention when he does things. Make it shared with the whole party; this isn't meant to make him a star shining above the other players. But have the party's reputation for dramatic escapes, and the responsible player character's responsibility therefor become better-known.

Have some encounters go differently because enemies recognize him or his party. Have the first time a purpose-built counter-caster show up be preceded by the foes saying something like, "It's so-and-so! Get Grathuk the Countercaster; we'll need him to take this party on!" Then have them take on a holding action to delay until the mage can get there to start messing with them.


In other words, if you're going to specifically target him, make it a deliberate thing by the foes in-game, based on him becoming well-known and something for which foes specifically prepare. When the enemies are not just arbitrarily geared to counter him, but instead are stroking his ego by recognizing him, it changes it from "DM out to get me" to "world recognizing cool stuff I've done; I need to change up my tactics."

[sleepyphoenixx]

According to the Legend Lore spell characters of 11th level or higher are "legendary". A 10th level character is certainly someone who would be relatively well known at least in the countries he's operated in before. People are going to tell stories about him. Enemies will ask around to see how he acted in his previous battles.
If they send someone after him it won't be nameless goonsquad #134.

He may even have acquired a cool nickname. :smalltongue:

That, and being prepared for spellcasters is just common sense if you're at that level.

[Dalebert]

I think some homebrew spells that are counter-measures would go a long way to make these spells less game-breaking. Invisible walls (or large spheres) that block TP, large fields that suppress TP in the area (like Hogwarts). That would probably be higher level. Higher level still might be a TP magnet type spell--any TP that originates or lands nearby (one or the other) they end up in a specific place chosen by the counter-meassure caster instead of where the TP-caster planned. They should be fairly long-lasting so that they could be maintained easily enough in places with the resources for it. That's all based on the idea that defense should be cheaper and easier than offense.

This is when someone is supposed to chime in and say those spells already exist "in Dragon Magazine #3449. Where have you been, Dalebert?"

[sleepyphoenixx]

I think some homebrew spells that are counter-measures would go a long way to make these spells less game-breaking. Invisible walls (or large spheres) that block TP, large fields that suppress TP in the area (like Hogwarts). That would probably be higher level. Higher level still might be a TP magnet type spell--any TP that originates or lands nearby (one or the other) they end up in a specific place chosen by the counter-meassure caster instead of where the TP-caster planned. They should be fairly long-lasting so that they could be maintained easily enough in places with the resources for it. That's all based on the idea that defense should be cheaper and easier than offense.

This is when someone is supposed to chime in and say those spells already exist "in Dragon Magazine #3449. Where have you been, Dalebert?"

They do. :smalltongue:

Okay, Forbiddance is not a sphere but a series of connected cubes, but it fills the spot.
TP magnet also exists - Halastars Teleport Cage (from City of Splendors iirc).
Dimensional Lock is fairly high level and short duration for what it does, so it's more of an in-combat solution, but Hallow with Dimensional Anchor works just fine as a mid-level long term solution.

For the high-end solution there's also the Weirdstone (PGtF) - it blocks all astral and ethereal travel, scrying and teleportation in a 6 mile radius.
If you want highly customizable wards you'll have to wait till epic and raise a Mythal (LEoF).

[RolkFlameraven]

Don't know if you are in FR or not but if this is going to be a problem while in the underdark, and I think 300 feet down would be in the underdark, then Faerzress would work rather well as Teleport magic and Divinations don't work well while in a Faerzess emanation zone.

You would have to deal with everything else he can do but at lest those two things wouldn't help much to either leave or scry on your NPC's so long as they are in such a zone. If you go Drow they tend to build citys in his type of area for this very reason. No scry and die attacks from other cities, houses, surface elves, each other...

[jiriku]

I think some homebrew spells that are counter-measures would go a long way to make these spells less game-breaking. Invisible walls (or large spheres) that block TP, large fields that suppress TP in the area (like Hogwarts). That would probably be higher level. Higher level still might be a TP magnet type spell--any TP that originates or lands nearby (one or the other) they end up in a specific place chosen by the counter-meassure caster instead of where the TP-caster planned. They should be fairly long-lasting so that they could be maintained easily enough in places with the resources for it. That's all based on the idea that defense should be cheaper and easier than offense.

This is when someone is supposed to chime in and say those spells already exist "in Dragon Magazine #3449. Where have you been, Dalebert?"

My favorite is desert diversion in Sandstorm, which redirects your teleportation spell into a trackless waste with no civilization around and causes any other teleportation spell cast within the next few minutes to just rubber-band you back into the middle of the waste.

[lhilas]

I think you have misunderstood me or maybe I was unclear.
The MT doesn't break the game in battles - battles are going just fine, but the party isn't willing to fight fair, if they don't have a huge advantage they just flee through pre cast invisibility + dimension door. They only "agree" to attack enemies from a safe place, fully buffed and at full HP. If I use homebrew spells/stuff or use clever tactics from someone else than the BBEG they start to get annoyed and say I'm trying to kill them all and that the game isn't fun. All the players agreed that last session was not fun except from the MT who claims his approach isthe right aapproach since they have very low chance to die in his way (which takes all the fun in my opinion) :smallfrown: .

[VoxRationis]

Trying to shut down people's options like that will probably hurt feelings. I'd recommend simply accounting for what they're going to do, accepting it, but adapting on your end of the matter.
If you want them to head to a particular place, you should probably start adding some positive incentives for them to do so.
If you want them to stick around in a particular place, don't make it impossible for them to escape; give them a good reason why retreat to fight the next day is unfeasible. Give them a hostage to rescue in a short amount of time, or other time limit. Give them a fight where the encounters you plan for them to fight are the weak ones; retreat just puts them against the stronger encounters.
Alternatively, make a "shotgun" dungeon, one long hall, where there's only really one place to teleport out to, and it's still within line of sight of the enemy.

[Psyren]

All the players agreed that last session was not fun except from the MT who claims his approach isthe right aapproach since they have very low chance to die in his way (which takes all the fun in my opinion) :smallfrown: .

Social pressure might do your job for you :smallbiggrin: "we're not willing to leave with you, we actually want to play out the scenario."

Still, I again have to point out how easy it is to either stymie or curtail teleportation without making it completely useless or even houseruling.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Be sure to observe the limit on the number of creatures he can take with him when using Dimension Door, only one medium creature per three caster levels. If he has Practiced Spellcaster and it's a party of four medium characters, then he should be fine, but if he needs to bring more than three other creatures (familiar, animal companion, important NPC) then he has to leave someone behind. You can put them on an adventure that involves keeping an important NPC safe, in which case they'll have to face their enemies because they can't all just dimension door away all at once.

As for Dimension Dooring to the surface 300 feet up, how did he know it was exactly 300 feet up? There could have been a hill that was 30 ft. tall, and they all take damage and get shoved to the nearest open space within 100 ft., which could be an upper level of the very lair they were trying to escape! Or the reverse of that, the surface is actually only 240 ft. above them, and they appear 60 ft. off the ground. You should also roll a random encounter to see if they appear right on top of a few Dire Bears or something.

Since you have stats rolled up for a bunch of opponents, go ahead and still use them, but slightly modified so the players won't immediately know that these are the same encounters they already avoided. Make them humans who've made a pact with powerful demons/devils that gave them special powers (SR, resistances to certain effects) in exchange for an increased CR/LA. There could be servants of both the Abyss and the Nine Hells involved in a material plane version of the Blood War. In that case, give them all an innate Anticipate Teleportation effect (SC) that's always active (CL = HD), since so many powerful outsiders can teleport at will, otherwise just be sure someone in each group of opponents can cast it and always has it active.

[RolkFlameraven]

OK... while that is a viable tactic it is hardly the heroic darers of do and doers of deeds that most groups are supposed to be...

At the same time see invis or blidesight in an area that blocks DD like the aforementioned Faerzress and they are going to be screwed... heck trimmer sense or sent in the same kind of zone and they are going to have to do something.

This still seems more like an OOC problem and you might need to just talk to this away from the table.

Are they getting EXP for all of this running away and full buff ambush fighting? Sadly the full HP or bust kind of fights happen once a group gets TP magic unless they as players decide to keep going/have to go as they are on a time limit.

If you can't work something out, or the other players can get him to play a different way, you are either going to need to ask them to leave, try a new game for a bit or see if he is willing to DM and then do it right back at him so he can see how little fun DMing can be when you as the DM aren't allowed to play too.

Your biggest problem seems to be that the rest of your group doesn't like taking chances, if they wine when you so much as hurt them I'm afraid they might be playing the wrong game, or they have never been pushed and felt just how good it feels to take on something you KNOW is going to kill you and come out of it bruised and battered but alive at the end. Few things feel that good, I've even died and watched my last surviving party mate stave off a TPK by two HP and a lucky save and it felt good. At the levels you they are playing at death isn't that bad after all....

May I ask how long most of your players have been playing? This is reminding me on the early years of my group right after "scream and pounce" had gotten them killed off a few times they decided the best bet was to turtle, it didn't last long as it was boring though.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I think you have misunderstood me or maybe I was unclear.
The MT doesn't break the game in battles - battles are going just fine, but the party isn't willing to fight fair, if they don't have a huge advantage they just flee through pre cast invisibility + dimension door. They only "agree" to attack enemies from a safe place, fully buffed and at full HP. If I use homebrew spells/stuff or use clever tactics from someone else than the BBEG they start to get annoyed and say I'm trying to kill them all and that the game isn't fun. All the players agreed that last session was not fun except from the MT who claims his approach isthe right aapproach since they have very low chance to die in his way (which takes all the fun in my opinion) :smallfrown: .

If your problem isn't countering their abilities but that they whine about being countered that's an OOC problem.

One option may be to sit down and explain to them that you want to have fun, too. Sitting around and watching your players slap each other on the back over how effortlessly they defeated your encounters isn't all that much fun.
Perhaps clarifying that you want their battles to be challenging will have an effect. After all if you wanted to kill them all you could do it easily and with 100% success rate.

On the other hand there are just players that don't really want a challenge. They want to be big unstoppable heroes and a nice, interactive story with a happy ending.
Neither option is inferior but they rarely mesh all that well, so you should sit down and hash out what everyone expects out of the game.

[lhilas]

The players have been playing for 2-6 years. And at the end of the last campaign that faced many near death battles against the residents of the nine hells:smallbiggrin:
At that campaign the MT guy played an occult slayer ranger and everything was going well but the character he built aren't particularly good at anything except for solving everything (teleportation, healing , poison neutralization and lots of buffs) which make him a pain in the *** for me... his "second in command" is a warlock with lots of wands so any spell the MT guy isn't willing to prepare is bought in a wand by the warlock.
How do I convince the party to actually take the quests I prepare ? The seem to only care about go and magic items and I can't hand them powerful stuff in every session :smallyuk: ... help?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The players have been playing for 2-6 years. And at the end of the last campaign that faced many near death battles against the residents of the nine hells:smallbiggrin:
At that campaign the MT guy played an occult slayer ranger and everything was going well but the character he built aren't particularly good at anything except for solving everything (teleportation, healing , poison neutralization and lots of buffs) which make him a pain in the *** for me... his "second in command" is a warlock with lots of wands so any spell the MT guy isn't willing to prepare is bought in a wand by the warlock.
How do I convince the party to actually take the quests I prepare ? The seem to only care about go and magic items and I can't hand them powerful stuff in every session :smallyuk: ... help?

Make it some kind of literal end-of-the-world scenario. Take my example of making human servants of demons/devils, waging a blood war on the material plane. Each faction is collecting components for a ritual which opens a gate for legions of demons/devils (respectively) to freely enter the material plane. Both factions are trying to stop the other from completing their ritual, while progressing toward completing their own. The PCs can intervene and defeat one faction, only to leave the other free to complete their ritual. There are also other adventurers trying to intervene, but they're not doing a very good job as they're unbalancing the conflict in one side's favor. If the PCs just avoid the adventure completely, on of the sides will open their portal and doom the material plane.

[Barstro]

the party isn't willing to fight fair, if they don't have a huge advantage they just flee through pre cast invisibility + dimension door. They only "agree" to attack enemies from a safe place, fully buffed and at full HP. If I use homebrew spells/stuff or use clever tactics from someone else than the BBEG they start to get annoyed and say I'm trying to kill them all and that the game isn't fun. All the players agreed that last session was not fun except from the MT who claims his approach isthe right aapproach since they have very low chance to die in his way (which takes all the fun in my opinion) :smallfrown: .

Hard for me to give good advice, since I much prefer strategy over strength. But I guess your party considers strength to be a strategy.

Let's see;
Only fighting people that you know you can beat does not "help you grow". Less XP; deal with it.
Wow, you guys have a great strategy. Oddly, BBEG uses that as well. He fights only when he is strong, and he brings friends.
Best Worst one; After an hour of roleplaying and a fight about to start, ALL enemies teleport away (they don't like dying either). Lather, Rinse, Repeat.
Make a session more puzzle solving than fighting.
Put in time limits; if they run away, they don't get the McGuffin.
I would say to get the MT grappled, but he'd probably just whine.

Is there a decent in-game way to put a tracker on them? Wasting a few Invisibilities and Teleports makes you pretty weak when the baddies come charging in.

[RolkFlameraven]

Ah the classic problem. Some groups want a sandbox but need rails, some DM love rails but their players really want a sandbox and most are somewhat in between.

To force them to go on a quest you have made you're going to need either Railroad them to it or carrot and stick it. Either they hear rumors of a powerful artifact, need a rare reagent for a spell, MT's GOD flat out tells him to do something, a friend/family member is kidnaped by those Bugbears or the Vampires as payback for leaving them to rot...

There are lots of ways to encourage them to take a plot hook but to force them to do so would simply be "You are here doing this" some people don't like that much.

[Barstro]

The seem to only care about go and magic items and I can't hand them powerful stuff in every session :smallyuk: ... help?

Some object that has just been discovered. BBEG is going for it too. If they back down from the fight, BBEG gets it.

Your players don't want to harvest the wheat, thresh the wheat, grind the wheat, sift the flour, knead the dough, or light the fire; but they sure want the bread.

EDIT: Now that I think about it; your players have taken the role of BBEG Organization. Have them start getting attacked so that running away is hurting their end game. Give them something that makes them powerful that they need to defend (spire gives them +2 to a primary stat for 24 hours).

[Gnaeus]

How do I convince the party to actually take the quests I prepare ? The seem to only care about go and magic items and I can't hand them powerful stuff in every session :smallyuk: ... help?

My conversation would go like this... "OK guys. You win. Please tell me what you/your characters want to do in this game, so I can prepare encounters for THAT. If I prepare for that, and then you suddenly decide to do something completely different, I won't stop you from doing whatever you want. But I will end that session and we will spend the next 3 hours playing Cards Against Humanity and at the next game I will be prepared to run whatever tangent you have decided to go down. The more advanced notice you give me of what your characters are going to do, the better the game will run."

[Psyren]

I'm seeing a lot of defeatist "throw up your hands/take your ball and go home" suggestions when I really don't see such drastic measures as being necessary.

[JusticeZero]

Yeah, this isn't a MT problem. The MT is actually making themself LESS able to do the things you are complaining about by going MT. You'd be worse off if they went straight Wizard, straight Cleric, etc.

[nedz]

I'm not really seeing a problem — mid to high level play can be like this. This strategy is normally termed Scry and Die.

I wouldn't worry too much about a TPK — parties of this level are quite resilient, and Divination + Teleport (Dim Door) can get them out of trouble quite easily — not to mention various other spells are their disposal.

[Barstro]

I'm not really seeing a problem — mid to high level play can be like this. This strategy is normally termed Scry and Die.

I wouldn't worry too much about a TPK — parties of this level are quite resilient, and Divination + Teleport (Dim Door) can get them out of trouble quite easily — not to mention various other spells are their disposal.

The above statement should go to the players, not the OP/GM. THEY are the ones who seem afraid of TPK and keep using Teleport spells to avoid all trouble before it even starts.

In response to Psyren, it sounds more like the OP is trying to keep the game interesting without the players taking the ball and going home.

[Psyren]

In response to Psyren, it sounds more like the OP is trying to keep the game interesting without the players taking the ball and going home.

Right - and it seems to me the problem right now is that teleportation is a little too precise/convenient. You can make it less reliable or feasible without making it completely useless, and even do so by RAW.

It's a compromise - you can still use dimension door to assist the group, but using it to bypass/escape every challenge automatically is less likely to be permitted.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Right - and it seems to me the problem right now is that teleportation is a little too precise/convenient. You can make it less reliable or feasible without making it completely useless, and even do so by RAW.

It's a compromise - you can still use dimension door to assist the group, but using it to bypass/escape every challenge automatically is less likely to be permitted.

It seems the OP already tried that, leading to whining on the part of the party on how the DM was trying to kill them all as soon as their standard response was countered.

Sure, there are lots of counters for "port in invisibly and flee if your success is not a near-guarantee", but if your party starts to complain whenever an encounter even slightly inconveniences them there really isn't all that much you can do.
You can either ignore them and deal with it until they stop playing because they don't find challenging encounters fun or you can give in and throw cannonfodder at them while being bored to tears and burning out on DMing sooner rather than later.

[Fax Celestis]

a level 10 character who can cast both 4th level wizard and cleric spells

The easiest entry, barring any weird shenanigans you let him do, is Wiz 3/Clr 3, followed by MT 4 which means he can't have higher than CL 7 in either class. This barely gets him 4th level spells in both classes, and he's got to spread his resources thinner in order to qualify for those (at least 14 INT and 14 WIS, which isn't unheard of, but still). His CL will be lower than a straight class (so shorter spells, shorter range, etc), and he'll get fewer bonus spells (since he won't be able to focus on just one stat). At this point, a single-classed caster should be able to outstrip him every step of the way.

I am willing to chalk this one up to poor tactics on the DM's part--your part, that is. You can't just throw fifteen goblins wielding shortswords and expect it to be challenging, no matter what the CR is. There is an excellent description on how to make interesting, dynamic encounters that are challenging on multiple levels in Dungeonscape, penned by our very own Lord and Savior, Rich Burlew (at least I think he wrote that chapter). I would highly suggest reading that and adjusting your encounters accordingly. It might be as simple as cutting back on a few fighter-types and swapping in an archer or three from obscure angles. It might mean replacing an enemy commander with a warlock (warlocks and dragonfire adepts are wonderful for DMs, by the way, as they're quick to build and have very little paperwork involved). It might mean mixing up several kinds of monster in a single encounter (two bulettes, a purple worm, and a chimera instead of four bulettes, for instance).

Your game will benefit and your players will have more fun. And your wizard won't stomp over everything quite so easily.

[Psyren]

It seems the OP already tried that, leading to whining on the part of the party on how the DM was trying to kill them all as soon as their standard response was countered.

No, he tried "homebrew spells" (no detail on what those did, either.) The simple expedient of limiting teleportation or making it more risky, rather than shutting it off entirely, was as far as I can tell not tried.



Sure, there are lots of counters for "port in invisibly and flee if your success is not a near-guarantee", but if your party starts to complain whenever an encounter even slightly inconveniences them there really isn't all that much you can do.
You can either ignore them and deal with it until they stop playing because they don't find challenging encounters fun or you can give in and throw cannonfodder at them while being bored to tears and burning out on DMing sooner rather than later.

How very bleak :smalltongue:
All I can say is if that is truly the dichotomy that results then he and everyone in his playgroup would be better off with a different game, but I honestly don't think it's that dire.

[Arbane]

Instead of shutting down their strengths, make them mandatory. Come up with an 'impassible' obstacle that can only get gotten past with teleportation. Force the PCs to stop three different evil cult rituals in three evil temples leagues apart from each other, in a single night. Make divination the only way to get any information on some enemy.

[sleepyphoenixx]

No, he tried "homebrew spells" (no detail on what those did, either.) The simple expedient of limiting teleportation or making it more risky, rather than shutting it off entirely, was as far as I can tell not tried.

How very bleak :smalltongue:
All I can say is if that is truly the dichotomy that results then he and everyone in his playgroup would be better off with a different game, but I honestly don't think it's that dire.

Apparently they already start to complain if anybody but the BBEG uses "clever tactics". That indicates more of a OOC problem to me than an inability to deal with the PCs abilities on the DMs part.
If i'm wrong the various ingame methods to stop or at least limit that kind of thing have already been mentioned.
If that's the extent of the problem the solution is relatively simple. Good for the DM/group.

On the other hand there are players who don't actually want challenges. Reconciling the two playstyles can be done sometimes, but in my experience it leaves both sides unsatisfied at least as often. In that case the best thing is to talk OOC about what people actually expect out of the game. There's no need to sugarcoat it and waste everyones time.

[Threadnaught]

Right, I'm done. These players are overly entitled babies and I can't go any further without really insulting some people who I don't know.

They are playing like the average BBEG, so I say turn them into BBEGs, give them the location of several fantastic Magic Items that'll allow them to achieve world domination and pit them against a whole bunch of genre savvy hero types who wait for the villains to blow through all their resources. In some cases, play it straight.

If they persist in complaining every time you remotely attempt to challenge them, then ask them plainly.


"Would you prefer to only fight CR1 enemies and still receive full xp and treasure?"

[Snails]

My conversation would go like this... "OK guys. You win. Please tell me what you/your characters want to do in this game, so I can prepare encounters for THAT. If I prepare for that, and then you suddenly decide to do something completely different, I won't stop you from doing whatever you want. But I will end that session and we will spend the next 3 hours playing Cards Against Humanity and at the next game I will be prepared to run whatever tangent you have decided to go down. The more advanced notice you give me of what your characters are going to do, the better the game will run."

On the nose. The players are not interested in the campaign crumbs dropped in front of them. Once they get past 6thish level, the DM has a quickly diminishing ability to organically force the adventure without the players feeling marched down the railroad tracks at spear point. Politely elicit from the players what kind of adventures they like to play, and follow through and allow the PCs decide In Character what they want to do.

If the PCs have trouble deciding a direction, that is a problem for the players to decide, not the DM. The DM getting involved can accidentally trigger resentment among players who are already acting out of contrariness.

[Vowtz]

It seems your players want settins on "very easy", let me try to help:

1. Magical items availability are up to DM discretion, so not all wands should be easily available for purchase.

2. You should make the reward for fighting so tempting that they will not want to flee.

3. Create a situation where if they run away lots of inocents will die, or they will be framed for a crime they did not commited.

4. See what their objectives are and steal/kidnap these objetives with your NPCs.

5. Have your NPC Cast dimmensional anchor and say "you will not run away from me again mage!"

6. Let they play on very easy for a while then throw a bunch of drow warriors disguised as goblins when they least expect.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Put (Un (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/unhallow.htm))Hallow (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/hallow.htm) on every enemy lair, and attach a Dimensional Anchor to it that affects only the residents' enemies. No more teleporting away.

[bekeleven]

Put (Un (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/unhallow.htm))Hallow (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/hallow.htm) on every enemy lair, and attach a Dimensional Anchor to it that affects only the residents' enemies. No more teleporting away.

My favorite is, as soon as the party appears, glitterdust (they're in a group to touch the teleporter) then dimension shuffle them all to a different corner of the room. Then teleport in your allies. Oh, you didn't see them with your scrying effect of choice? They must have been out of range/in a lead room/vecna blooded.

I had an enemy mage glitterdust my 99% melee party last session. I forgot just how mean that spell was...

[NeoPhoenix0]

What about playing on their strengths?

the opposition can learn from their encounterss with the players. so why not start with some lead sheeting. coating a dungeon or maybe just a room with it will prevent any scrying subschool spell (and any 'detect' spell) from penetrating in or out. also lead lined pockets is a 10 gp upgrade. what about lead lined cloaks? not every enemy or room has to be like this but the enemy isn't stupid. (unless they are i'm not sure, i don't know)

Also there is a lovely spell called teleport cage (http://dndtools.eu/spells/city-of-splendors-waterdeep--16/halasters-teleport-cage--332/) you may want to use on an occasion or two. It wouldn't be to much of a stretch for a bbeg to fill his entire lair with one. and remember they all connect if they overlap.

[lhilas]

The easiest entry, barring any weird shenanigans you let him do, is Wiz 3/Clr 3, followed by MT 4 which means he can't have higher than CL 7 in either class. This barely gets him 4th level spells in both classes, and he's got to spread his resources thinner in order to qualify for those (at least 14 INT and 14 WIS, which isn't unheard of, but still). His CL will be lower than a straight class (so shorter spells, shorter range, etc), and he'll get fewer bonus spells (since he won't be able to focus on just one stat). At this point, a single-classed caster should be able to outstrip him every step of the way.

I am willing to chalk this one up to poor tactics on the DM's part--your part, that is. You can't just throw fifteen goblins wielding shortswords and expect it to be challenging, no matter what the CR is. There is an excellent description on how to make interesting, dynamic encounters that are challenging on multiple levels in Dungeonscape, penned by our very own Lord and Savior, Rich Burlew (at least I think he wrote that chapter). I would highly suggest reading that and adjusting your encounters accordingly. It might be as simple as cutting back on a few fighter-types and swapping in an archer or three from obscure angles. It might mean replacing an enemy commander with a warlock (warlocks and dragonfire adepts are wonderful for DMs, by the way, as they're quick to build and have very little paperwork involved). It might mean mixing up several kinds of monster in a single encounter (two bulettes, a purple worm, and a chimera instead of four bulettes, for instance).

Your game will benefit and your players will have more fun. And your wizard won't stomp over everything quite so easily.

Like I already said , I have no problem challenging them. But if I use too clever tactics such as casters ambushing them/preparing spells to counter them they complain... Not to mention the MT guy actually refuse showing me his spells prepared for the day in fear that I will unfairly counter it. The entire group agreed with him :smallannoyed:

[NeoPhoenix0]

Like I already said , I have no problem challenging them. But if I use too clever tactics such as casters ambushing them/preparing spells to counter them they complain... Not to mention the MT guy actually refuse showing me his spells prepared for the day in fear that I will unfairly counter it. The entire group agreed with him :smallannoyed:

I'm gonna be slightly brutally honest for a moment. they sound like all they want to fight is groups of mindless undead and stupid goblins... have you offered the position of dm to one of them?

[eggynack]

Like I already said , I have no problem challenging them. But if I use too clever tactics such as casters ambushing them/preparing spells to counter them they complain... Not to mention the MT guy actually refuse showing me his spells prepared for the day in fear that I will unfairly counter it. The entire group agreed with him :smallannoyed:
This really seems like a problem whose solution lies in the word use sector, rather than in some plan to counteract a caster. Just talk to these fellows, and figure out if there is a way to run your campaign that would please all involved parties, including yourself.

[hewhosaysfish]

I'm confused by the way the OP spent 3 quarters of his describing the circumstances of his PCs DDooring away from a bunch of bugbears and adds "and then they went to a different continent" in half a sentence.

If the continents are close together and the PCs just did the equivalent of sailing from Spain to Morocco then the organisation and politics you've prepared can still be relevant.

If they're further apart then how did the PCs book passage and make the journey without any drama intuding at all? Crossing oceans on sailing ships is not done lightly.

[nedz]

Like I already said , I have no problem challenging them. But if I use too clever tactics such as casters ambushing them/preparing spells to counter them they complain... Not to mention the MT guy actually refuse showing me his spells prepared for the day in fear that I will unfairly counter it. The entire group agreed with him :smallannoyed:

This indicates a lack of trust, which is worrying. Have you done anything to give them the idea that you would abuse this knowledge ?

As for the players not liking challenging encounters — have you tried talking to them about it ? They probably have a better idea of the situation than a bunch of random people on the internet, also we only have one side of the story.

[Barstro]

Not to mention the MT guy actually refuse showing me his spells prepared for the day in fear that I will unfairly counter it. The entire group agreed with him :smallannoyed:

I actually agree with this. If a DM gives me a reason to look at my spell list, or has me put it in an envelope for him in case a BBEG secretly finds out, so be it. Otherwise, why should the baddies be more prepared than the caster?

The problem in the instant case is that the MT seems to want things both ways. If you cannot lose, then you are not roleplaying; you are simply writing a book. And a bad third-book-of-the-Divergent-series book at that.

It really sounds like they need actual goals and consequences of failure. Rumors of armies being formed and only a few weeks before they get there. Upset employers that hire the assassin's guild for the team's failures.

[dextercorvia]

This indicates a lack of trust, which is worrying. Have you done anything to give them the idea that you would abuse this knowledge ?

It's more worrying because, I've usually found that people who don't want the DM to see their prepared list are changing it on the fly. Which may be the source for that player's lack of trust. I've found that the untrustworthy tend to be the least trusting of others.

[Segev]

On the subject of Dimension Door's limited number of creatures it can bring with you, somebody mentioned counting familiars. That's actually to the wizard/sorcerer's advantage: Share Spells means you can share Dimension Door with your Familiar, and now you have him along for the ride "for free," and the familiar can touch and bring along as many creatures as you can, effectively doubling your transport cap!


Instead of shutting down their strengths, make them mandatory. Come up with an 'impassible' obstacle that can only get gotten past with teleportation. Force the PCs to stop three different evil cult rituals in three evil temples leagues apart from each other, in a single night. Make divination the only way to get any information on some enemy.This is the best advice you're likely to get, regarding actually dealing with the encounter-design and party-challenging problems you're facing.

Don't build to counter them; instead, look at what your creatures and NPCs have available to them, and build the most impenetrable defenses and the most hazardous threats you can. "Scry and die" is a valid tactic...but it's valid for NPCs and PCs alike. And pursuit can use teleportation tactics, too. It's a finite resource; the party can run out of it.

But more importantly, build things that require them to use these tactics; if they have to use them to get IN, it may mean they have trouble using them to get OUT.


Like I already said , I have no problem challenging them. But if I use too clever tactics such as casters ambushing them/preparing spells to counter them they complain... Not to mention the MT guy actually refuse showing me his spells prepared for the day in fear that I will unfairly counter it. The entire group agreed with him :smallannoyed:


It's more worrying because, I've usually found that people who don't want the DM to see their prepared list are changing it on the fly. Which may be the source for that player's lack of trust. I've found that the untrustworthy tend to be the least trusting of others.
You are the DM; it is well within your right to insist that you see his prepared list, or you will assume he hasn't prepared anything at all.

As a real jerk move, you could also take advantage of the fact that the god doesn't have to grant the cleric what he asks for; if the player won't tell you what he asked for, fill his divine slots with what you think the god would think is useful today. And provide him that list.

Note, this is really an OOC problem; I am not advocating either of these as "real" solutions. These do make good hypotheticals to explain why you, as DM, should be shown it.


Make sure, to be fair, that you have your encounter planned before you see this list; you don't want to give them any ammo to claim you're doing what he claims he fears. But players don't get to have secrets from DMs if DMs don't want them to. Not related to the game. Nothing happens in the game that the DM is unaware of.

Discuss it with them. Explain that you build your encounters ahead of time, so there's no danger of you tailoring it to make his preparations useless. Also explain that this isn't about "beating" them, but about running a game that is at least a challenge.



Finally, what is it the PCs want to do? What motivates them? Don't try to coerce them IC to follow the plot; entice them to want to. When they need to put themselves against the threats and challenges of your encounter to achieve their goals, they won't bug out just because they can. They'll use it as an escape button if things are too hard. And then they'll have to prepare better next time. Meanwhile, the foes they fought might be preparing for a counter-attack, or just to harden/alter their defenses further to handle the tactics that were most dangerous.

[lhilas]

Thanks everyone, I'm going to go ahead and prepare the next adventure focusing on their strengths, which will (hopefully) cause them to use those powers in order to advance the story, and not just to run away :/
I'll let you know how it went in a few days from now...
PS
Let's hope none of them will enter the forum in the next 2-3 days :smallbiggrin:

[sleepyphoenixx]

Let's hope none of them will enter the forum in the next 2-3 days :smallbiggrin:

It would actually be interesting to see the problem from the players perspective. Having them write it out instead of getting into a big argument at the table might be helpful, too.

[Segev]

Honestly? Nothing we've suggested here needs be kept secret from your players. There aren't any secrets or surprises, just suggestions for improved tactics and the kinds of adventures that'd work well for a party with these capabilities. I'd give similar advice to a DM for a game I was in, and not feel like I had any particular advantage for knowing he was following it.

[Dalebert]

Let's hope none of them will enter the forum in the next 2-3 days :smallbiggrin:

I find I can discuss my game here with wild abandon. Most of my players aren't hardcore enough to stay up on these forums and the one who is is too busy. :smallcool:

[Snails]

On the subject of Dimension Door's limited number of creatures it can bring with you, somebody mentioned counting familiars. That's actually to the wizard/sorcerer's advantage: Share Spells means you can share Dimension Door with your Familiar, and now you have him along for the ride "for free," and the familiar can touch and bring along as many creatures as you can, effectively doubling your transport cap!

The familiar comes along for free, as it counts as part of "You" for spells you cast, but things it targets also count against the tally for You.

[Threadnaught]

Yes, bring your players here so we may feast upon their innocence. :smallamused:

I wish to see what they think of the campaign. So far it's looking a little too much like that (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?250938-Party-Issues-Need-Advice) game Acanous ran some time ago.

Edit: As for the MT not telling you his Spells. I'm playing as the Wizard in one campaign and am utterly refusing to let my DM know what I have prepared. I don't trust him not to (accidentally) metagame with this knowledge, and am hoping that by hiding my Spell Selection, I can surprise everyone daily (or monthly as far as sessions go) with my Spell selection. They know what Spells I know and which I plan on learning at each level.
If you trust your player not to cheat by lying about what Spells they've prepared, then I suggest you allow them to continue maintaining secrecy from you the DM.

And possibly increase the rewards for challenging encounters against enemies that behave intelligently, to incentivize them into thinking about their own tactics.

[nedz]

Edit: As for the MT not telling you his Spells. I'm playing as the Wizard in one campaign and am utterly refusing to let my DM know what I have prepared. I don't trust him not to (accidentally) metagame with this knowledge, and am hoping that by hiding my Spell Selection, I can surprise everyone daily (or monthly as far as sessions go) with my Spell selection. They know what Spells I know and which I plan on learning at each level.
If you trust your player not to cheat by lying about what Spells they've prepared, then I suggest you allow them to continue maintaining secrecy from you the DM.

That's a good point — trust flows both ways. I've DM'd a lot and I can't remember ever asking to see a list of spells a PC has prepared; but if I did ask I would expect the player to show me the list. In general I wouldn't want to know because I have enough to worry about, and then there is the risk of inadvertent meta-gaming (either to the PC's advantage or disadvantage) and I trust my players.