[3.5e] What happens when a character pisses off his girlfriend...

[Super Evil User]

...who just happens to be a level 15 wizard?

[BWR]

Is this a real question or just an attempt at humor?

[Super Evil User]

No, just a guy asking for roleplaying advice.

Side note: Wish there was a thread dedicated to small questions like this, don't really feel like this is deserving of its own thread. But there isn't, and here we are.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Hmm. Well, what'd they do? How harsh of a person is the girlfriend? How likely is it that they'll forgive them? How likely is it that there's gonna be severe retaliation? Most people, even powerful people, don't nuke other people for making them mad. Unless they did something really bad.


Side note: Wish there was a thread dedicated to small questions like this, don't really feel like this is deserving of its own thread. But there isn't, and here we are.
No fret; you'll get an answer, and the thread will fade into obscurity eventually. No big deal. :smallsmile:

[AMFV]

Well what's his Girlfriend's alignment and personality? How long has the relationship been going on? How does she view the relationship? How does he? What did he do to offend her? What have her previous relationships been like?

Edit: Sorry about the barrage of questions, but even if you haven't figured these things out, thinking about them will help to figure out how she'd react.

[draken50]

I would imagine it depends on how aggressive/ passive-aggressive the wizard is, and the cause. A prideful wizard whose pride was hurt is going to behave differently than a more humble one.

Ultimately, if you've got a very volatile wizard this could result in stuff like explosive rune ... I guess pranks could be the word. More passive aggressive stuff could be using prestidigitation to warm the characters cold drinks or cool off their hot ones. Minor shows of displeasure that aren't really much more than an inconvenience.

That being said, both of them are the acts of more immature, at least from a relationship standpoint, characters. With honest communication and expression of the problem being the ideal. A lot of people tend to try to avoid the issue, possibly trying to wait it out until it doesn't bug them as much, but it could definitely rear its head later. The whole "Never forgetting past mistakes" stereotype in my experience actually tends to be related to issues that weren't ever really talked about or resolved. Though there are obviously going to be cases where that's not the case.

Personally, I would assume the character if not yet ready to simply discuss the problem is most likely going to throw themselves into their work/studies and use that as an excuse to avoid interaction. The character exasperatedly saying "Look, I don't have time for this right now, because I need to finish this," feels more authentic to me than throwing fireballs in a tantrum.

Alternatively if the transgression was serious enough, they may decide the relationship is no longer worth their time and attention as they have other things with which to occupy themselves. Like, warping the very fabric of reality and the like. Their aloof attitude could certainly conceal a lot of pain.

[AMFV]

Well if she were only two short levels higher, she could just Mind Rape him and then fix the problem... That could be a slight bit evil though.

[Angelalex242]

At 15th level?

Polymorph Any Object...

Go from there.

[Friv]

She creates a use-activated wondrous item whose only purpose is to explain everything that her boyfriend did wrong, in 25 words or less, and then gives it to a construct with orders to wander around a mile or two away from him, sending messages to him once every ten minutes until he gets the idea.

[Velaryon]

It really depends on the personality of both characters, what the character did to piss her off, and what kind of game you're trying to run.

draken50 described a pretty realistic interpretation, and if you're playing a campaign with in-depth characters and a fairly serious tone, this is probably great advice to follow.

If the game has a lighter tone and you're not so concerned with a true-to-life portrayal, but more looking for humorous "wizard girlfriend punishes naughty boyfriend with embarrassing/humiliating but ultimately non-lethal magic," then that's different, but we need more info to know which response is more appropriate.

[Brookshw]

Isn't it obvious? He has to sleep on the couch.

[Esprit15]

Isn't it obvious? He has to sleep on the couch.
Thread won. Everyone go home.

[draken50]

Isn't it obvious? He has to sleep on the couch.

HAHAHAHAHAHA!

Awesome, and all the more impressive for being both funny and simultaneously matching both a serious and lighter tone of game.

[comicshorse]

I'd say this :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5okhZWGzjI

[Mr.Moron]

Presumably something between nothing and some yelling, possibly a breakup. Depending on how strong their relationship is. Unless she's a particularly terrible person I can't imagine being a 15th level wizard figures into it all.

[toapat]

my first response was "well, theres your next B-villan"

my second response was already mentioned by brookshw

[Knaight]

Presumably something between nothing and some yelling, possibly a breakup. Depending on how strong their relationship is. Unless she's a particularly terrible person I can't imagine being a 15th level wizard figures into it all.

Exactly. After all, the vast majority of people are perfectly capable of responding to being pissed off by an SO with lethal force. It's not inability that prevents this for most people, it's having even the slightest quantity of morality. For particularly horrible people it might be the threat of retaliatory violence, but those are niche cases, and given the amount of relationship violence particularly horrible people manage to get away with I doubt it's much of a deterrent.

There are only a handful of ways I see the "15th level wizard" coming into things at all. A brief list:

Any worry about not being able to find someone else after a breakup is probably gone.
Leaving to go get some space could easily involve teleportation or plane shifting.
Lashing out in frustration later at some inanimite object might involve more magic.
Heading over to a friend to vent is much, much less restricted to people who actually live nearby. It might also involve a summoning spell if a lighter tone is wanted.

[VoxRationis]

These sound like fun NPCs to use in a campaign. Two rival wizards, ex-lovers, constantly but nonviolently feuding from their respective towers.

[veti]

Heading over to a friend to vent is much, much less restricted to people who actually live nearby. It might also involve a summoning spell if a lighter tone is wanted.


"You have summoned me, oh wise one. What is your command?"

"Just stand there while I tell you what that **** has done now!"

I once played in a campaign where the summoned monsters were unionised, and would point-blank refuse any orders they deemed too dangerous or insufficiently rewarding. Just sayin'.

[Slipperychicken]

She can cast 8th level spells. Let's see what that gets us...


Pressure him into submitting to a Probe Thoughts spell (Wiz 6, Complete Divine), or cast it on him in his sleep, or use any number of magics to coerce him into it. Either way gets her the answer to 1 question per round, straight from her man's brain, as long as she wants to maintain concentration. Even if she does it in his sleep and he starts making saves after a few rounds, that'll give her plenty of ammunition.
Throw down a Quest/Geass or Bestow Curse until she's satisfied.
Various divinations to keep an eye on him at all times, know where you've been and what you've done.
Plane Shift him somewhere nasty and leave you there as punishment.
Dominate Person (Sorc/Wiz 5) gets her 15 days of control, and a whole month if she Extends it. Since the target is her boyfriend, it's hard to imagine many tasks being sufficiently against his nature to allow a saving throw. Regardless, she's a smart girl (18 Int at minimum) and probably knows his limits well, and is therefore unlikely to trigger such a save.
As mentioned elsewhere, PAO lets her turn him into something humiliating like a turtle to humble him.
She could Flesh to Stone him until she stops being angry. And then she can Shrink Item him and keep him (now little more than a miniature statuette) next to her bed or on her desk, as a reminder of what happens to men who wrong her. If she's truly mad, she could also grind the statue into a fine dust, mix it with water, get someone to cast Purify Food and Drink, then sprinkle the resulting liquid into the infinite bodies of water on several different planes of existence (the first layer of celestia and the Plane of Water come to mind), ensuring that her boyfriend never lives again or sees the afterlife.
She could cast Alter Self or Polymorph on herself and use the disguise to test his loyalty by seducing him, or make a planar-bound Succubus do the same thing while she uses a spell to watch.
She could Feeblemind (Sorc/Wiz 5) him before using her other spells. It becomes easier for him to fail saves when his Wisdom is 1. Mind Fog can help as a save-reducer, as can negative levels.
She could get hold of his soul somehow, then use it as a material component (as per BoVD), forever erasing him from existence.


Saving the best for last: if she can UMD a scroll of Love's Pain (Corrupt 3, BoVD), that's a pretty definitive test of who his "dearest loved one" is. If girlfriend-wizard doesn't take damage from casting that spell, that's bad news for her man. The best part? No save, no spell resistance, for either the target or his dearest loved one.

[Knaight]

"You have summoned me, oh wise one. What is your command?"

"Just stand there while I tell you what that **** has done now!"

I once played in a campaign where the summoned monsters were unionised, and would point-blank refuse any orders they deemed too dangerous or insufficiently rewarding. Just sayin'.

Hence the requirement for a lighter tone.

[Super Evil User]

Now is probably a good time to say that the guy is a Level 11 cleric...

[USS Sorceror]

Why are there so many suggestions that condone abusive behavior? Unless this wizard is some kind of evil (OP hasn't specified) then the wizard will probably take a vacation to their preferred afterlife or a distant planet. Cool off, try to talk it out later.

[AMFV]

Now is probably a good time to say that the guy is a Level 11 cleric...

Well that still doesn't tell us anything about the dynamic of the relationship... which would be the thing...

[Segev]

If we want "petty, but not a sign of this being a bad person to date," she might refuse to talk to him and instead relay everything through her familiar for a while.

She might use magic to avoid him, if she's the sort to expect him to realize he's wrong and apologize first and not want to deal with him at all until he does.

Really, as others have said, it depends on her. Ask yourself what she'd do if she and the boyfriend were normal people in the modern world. Then give her magical superpowers to make whatever she would do easier.

[Slipperychicken]

Why are there so many suggestions that condone abusive behavior? Unless this wizard is some kind of evil (OP hasn't specified) then the wizard will probably take a vacation to their preferred afterlife or a distant planet. Cool off, try to talk it out later.

For the record, I don't condone abusive behavior. I was under the impression that this wizard girlfriend was out for revenge.

Besides, angry lovers do this kind of thing often enough, and fiction is full of portrayals of revenge scenarios involving supernatural powers.

EDIT: And I have another one. If the transgression was related to "clerical" duties, our wizard could lash out by destroying some objects important to her boyfriend's faith, like his holy symbol, prayer-book, or personal altar.

[Yael]

Isn't it obvious? He has to sleep on the couch.

Just this is too damn accurate.

[Darkweave31]

Just don't break up with her via sending spell

[Dimers]

Why are there so many suggestions that condone abusive behavior?

Because horrible things that aren't real can be very funny :smallbiggrin: and the people making such suggestions maintain a healthy separation between fantasy and reality.

Recommendation for you: don't play Cards Against Humanity. You would not enjoy it. :smallyuk: It's like dead baby jokes turned up to 11.

[Knaight]

Because horrible things that aren't real can be very funny :smallbiggrin: and the people making such suggestions maintain a healthy separation between fantasy and reality.

Recommendation for you: don't play Cards Against Humanity. You would not enjoy it. :smallyuk: It's like dead baby jokes turned up to 11.

I like Cards Against Humanity, but still consider a lot of the suggestions pretty off - there's no reason to think that this isn't a serious game, and the ideas being presented are being presented as if they're just the logical consequences of the girlfriend being magically powerful.

[Dimers]

I like Cards Against Humanity, but still consider a lot of the suggestions pretty off - there's no reason to think that this isn't a serious game, and the ideas being presented are being presented as if they're just the logical consequences of the girlfriend being magically powerful.

The format of the OP is reason enough to think that the girlfriend's spellcasting is why the question is being asked. So people look at spells a level 15 wizard can cast ... find funny horrible things (which is because very few D&D wizard spells are intended to be cast on a person you like but are mad at) ... post those ideas ... get scolded for it by someone who doesn't seem to be separating in-game behavior from RL morals. If the OP had at some point said "No, that's not what I'm asking, this is a group with very serious in-character interaction, here's our RP background including how wizards are feared because FITB, and I mention the boyfriend being a cleric because his religion is all about X, Y and Z" and so on, and then people had given demented CardsAgainstHumanity-worthy ideas, the scolding would make sense to me. But just out of the blue? when the OP had seemingly added fuel to the fire by mentioning another class construct while naysaying nobody? Nah. Let's see some silly.

[AMFV]

The format of the OP is reason enough to think that the girlfriend's spellcasting is why the question is being asked. So people look at spells a level 15 wizard can cast ... find funny horrible things (which is because very few D&D wizard spells are intended to be cast on a person you like but are mad at) ... post those ideas ... get scolded for it by someone who doesn't seem to be separating in-game behavior from RL morals. If the OP had at some point said "No, that's not what I'm asking, this is a group with very serious in-character interaction, here's our RP background including how wizards are feared because FITB, and I mention the boyfriend being a cleric because his religion is all about X, Y and Z" and so on, and then people had given demented CardsAgainstHumanity-worthy ideas, the scolding would make sense to me. But just out of the blue? when the OP had seemingly added fuel to the fire by mentioning another class construct while naysaying nobody? Nah. Let's see some silly.

Well the fundamental issue for me is that we have no idea how she is, or about her personality... Even supposing that a 15th level wizard will react with magic to this sort of thing, we need to know about her. A passive-aggressive person will react differently and do different amusing things than somebody with an explosive temper, an Ice Queen will react differently still.

[Phelix-Mu]

I'm pretty sure she can planar bind an ifrit to wish up a couple scrolls of ice assassin to double ice assassin her boyfriend, giving her a perfect, but not quite real substitute, which she can variously use in place of the real thing, or kill in order to deal with her anger, or just use to humiliate the real one, if that's her thing.

Alternately, she just ice assassin's Elminster/Mary Sue as her new crush, and makes the cleric boyfriend feel totally inferior.

I can picture it now.

GF: Oh, fancy meeting you here.

BF: I always eat here.

GF: Oh, really, I never noticed.

BF: We always used to eat here...before...*mumbles*

GF: Hey, I'd like you to meet my new boyfriend, [important person]. He's really good to me. Really opened up my mind to new...possibilities.

BF: That's...um...that sounds nice. *tries to focus on eating hamburger*

GF: When we are together, he likes to [censored].

BF: *chokes on hamburger*

GF: Come on, [important person]. Our work here is done.

BF: *can't quite reach milkshake...dying slowly...in more ways than one*

Yeah. So I went with the "not-so-serious" camp, it seems.

[Sith_Happens]

The format of the OP is reason enough to think that the girlfriend's spellcasting is why the question is being asked. So people look at spells a level 15 wizard can cast ... find funny horrible things (which is because very few D&D wizard spells are intended to be cast on a person you like but are mad at) ... post those ideas ... get scolded for it by someone who doesn't seem to be separating in-game behavior from RL morals. If the OP had at some point said "No, that's not what I'm asking, this is a group with very serious in-character interaction, here's our RP background including how wizards are feared because FITB, and I mention the boyfriend being a cleric because his religion is all about X, Y and Z" and so on, and then people had given demented CardsAgainstHumanity-worthy ideas, the scolding would make sense to me. But just out of the blue? when the OP had seemingly added fuel to the fire by mentioning another class construct while naysaying nobody? Nah. Let's see some silly.

Okay, how about this:

She casts Binding... chaining you to the couch for a year per caster level.

[Hazrond]

Okay, how about this:

She casts Binding... chaining you to the couch for a year per caster level.

This. you win the thread. everybody go home.

[Telonius]

Absolutely nothing. The girlfriend had already used several divinations to find out exactly what the boyfriend was going to do, and has already set up several contingency plans for when it happened. Also, if you think she's mad at you, that's because she wants you to think that. :smallcool:

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Absolutely nothing. The girlfriend had already used several divinations to find out exactly what the boyfriend was going to do, and has already set up several contingency plans for when it happened. Also, if you think she's mad at you, that's because she wants you to think that. :smallcool:

Now this is the best possible answer. She treats the challenges of relationships, just like any other challenge she faces. Before you met she already knew that you'd live happily ever after, or exactly when she'd need to break things off to start a relationship with the real love of her life. Maybe she'll let you down easy and leave you with a double ice assassin of herself mindraped to be satisfied with you.

[John Longarrow]

I'm pretty sure she can planar bind an ifrit to wish up a couple scrolls of ice assassin to double ice assassin her boyfriend, giving her a perfect, but not quite real substitute, which she can variously use in place of the real thing, or kill in order to deal with her anger, or just use to humiliate the real one, if that's her thing.

Alternately, she just ice assassin's Elminster/Mary Sue as her new crush, and makes the cleric boyfriend feel totally inferior.

I can picture it now.

GF: Oh, fancy meeting you here.

BF: I always eat here.

GF: Oh, really, I never noticed.

BF: We always used to eat here...before...*mumbles*

GF: Hey, I'd like you to meet my new boyfriend, [important person]. He's really good to me. Really opened up my mind to new...possibilities.

BF: That's...um...that sounds nice. *tries to focus on eating hamburger*

GF: When we are together, he likes to [censored].

BF: *chokes on hamburger*

GF: Come on, [important person]. Our work here is done.

BF: *can't quite reach milkshake...dying slowly...in more ways than one*

Yeah. So I went with the "not-so-serious" camp, it seems.


GF: <Gives evil eye as she walks arm in arm with [important person] and is passed by impossibly built teen cheerleader who comes running in> "And who is SHE?!?"

BF: <Catching sex on a stick as she jumps in his arms> "Oh, her? You mean one of my Planar Cohorts? Buffy, can you grab your sisters Candie and Cherri? I want to introduce you to my OLD girlfriend..."

**** Restaurant clears out before anyone takes cold damage from GF... ****

[Hand_of_Vecna]

GF: <Gives evil eye as she walks arm in arm with [important person] and is passed by impossibly built teen cheerleader who comes running in> "And who is SHE?!?"

BF: <Catching sex on a stick as she jumps in his arms> "Oh, her? You mean one of my Planar Cohorts? Buffy, can you grab your sisters Candie and Cherri? I want to introduce you to my OLD girlfriend..."

**** Restaurant clears out before anyone takes cold damage from GF... ****

What's good for the goose . . .

It's true that beyond a certain level chastity, loyalty to a lover, etc are the only reasons for a spellcaster not to be sexualy satisfied on a day to day basis.

[Arc_knight25]

I was expecting a Tiny Hut comment for sure. No sleeping in the well guarded tower for you no, you get the tiny hut spell that she had ready just for such an occasion.

If you really upset her, then expect to be hit with hurricane force winds while you sleep.

Also if she really wanted to know what you were doing scrying is a thing, and don't think she doesn't have any hair/blood/skin/mucous...(you get the idea) in her lab for trying to find you, increasing that save dc even more.

Or why not just clone you, and dominate the clone, that way these things just don't happen. Heck, dominate you and just make you say sorry. Maybe sign a pact or two while she has you under her spell.

Really she has a lot of options.

[ArqArturo]

Isn't it obvious? He has to sleep on the couch.

Mordekainen's Couch of Shame?.

[Hazrond]

Maybe sign a pact or two while she has you under her spell.

Nope, contracts made under coercion (magical or otherwise) are rendered void

[Brookshw]

Mordekainen's Couch of Shame?.

The simplicity and versatility is somewhat the strength of the joke I think but feel free to play around with it as you like (and on the note of spells "Bigby's Boyfriend Correcttion").

[ArqArturo]

The simplicity and versatility is somewhat the strength of the joke I think but feel free to play around with it as you like (and on the note of spells "Bigby's Boyfriend Correcttion").

Also, I think Mordekainen may have a hand fetish, I mean... All those hand spells.

[Sith_Happens]

It's true that beyond a certain level chastity, loyalty to a lover, etc are the only reasons for a spellcaster not to be sexualy satisfied on a day to day basis.

[Saved for future extended sig.]

[ArqArturo]

I was expecting a Tiny Hut comment for sure. No sleeping in the well guarded tower for you no, you get the tiny hut spell that she had ready just for such an occasion.

If you really upset her, then expect to be hit with hurricane force winds while you sleep.

Also if she really wanted to know what you were doing scrying is a thing, and don't think she doesn't have any hair/blood/skin/mucous...(you get the idea) in her lab for trying to find you, increasing that save dc even more.

Or why not just clone you, and dominate the clone, that way these things just don't happen. Heck, dominate you and just make you say sorry. Maybe sign a pact or two while she has you under her spell.

Really she has a lot of options.

And being friends with the Lady of Pain might be one of them.

[Spacebatsy]

Just out of curiosity, what if the question had been asked: What happens when a character pisses off her boyfriend... who just happens to be a level 15 wizard?

Would anyone have considered answering (switching the he/she as appropriate):



She can cast 8th level spells. Let's see what that gets us...


Pressure him into submitting to a Probe Thoughts spell (Wiz 6, Complete Divine), or cast it on him in his sleep, or use any number of magics to coerce him into it. Either way gets her the answer to 1 question per round, straight from her man's brain, as long as she wants to maintain concentration. Even if she does it in his sleep and he starts making saves after a few rounds, that'll give her plenty of ammunition.
Throw down a Quest/Geass or Bestow Curse until she's satisfied.
Various divinations to keep an eye on him at all times, know where you've been and what you've done.
Plane Shift him somewhere nasty and leave you there as punishment.
Dominate Person (Sorc/Wiz 5) gets her 15 days of control, and a whole month if she Extends it. Since the target is her boyfriend, it's hard to imagine many tasks being sufficiently against his nature to allow a saving throw. Regardless, she's a smart girl (18 Int at minimum) and probably knows his limits well, and is therefore unlikely to trigger such a save.
As mentioned elsewhere, PAO lets her turn him into something humiliating like a turtle to humble him.
She could Flesh to Stone him until she stops being angry. And then she can Shrink Item him and keep him (now little more than a miniature statuette) next to her bed or on her desk, as a reminder of what happens to men who wrong her. If she's truly mad, she could also grind the statue into a fine dust, mix it with water, get someone to cast Purify Food and Drink, then sprinkle the resulting liquid into the infinite bodies of water on several different planes of existence (the first layer of celestia and the Plane of Water come to mind), ensuring that her boyfriend never lives again or sees the afterlife.
She could cast Alter Self or Polymorph on herself and use the disguise to test his loyalty by seducing him, or make a planar-bound Succubus do the same thing while she uses a spell to watch.
She could Feeblemind (Sorc/Wiz 5) him before using her other spells. It becomes easier for him to fail saves when his Wisdom is 1. Mind Fog can help as a save-reducer, as can negative levels.
She could get hold of his soul somehow, then use it as a material component (as per BoVD), forever erasing him from existence.


Saving the best for last: if she can UMD a scroll of Love's Pain (Corrupt 3, BoVD), that's a pretty definitive test of who his "dearest loved one" is. If girlfriend-wizard doesn't take damage from casting that spell, that's bad news for her man. The best part? No save, no spell resistance, for either the target or his dearest loved one.


Would that still qualify as “Nah. Let’s see some silly”?

[Super Evil User]

OK, I regret not saying this earlier.

Yeah, this was supposed to be not-serious. Hell, the situation that led to this involved a bad decision he only agreed to because she slept with him.

[Spore]

http://youtu.be/W3KgDVG_x2s?t=19m15s

[ArqArturo]

I like to think that we're all mature enough to poke fun at everything for the sake of humor.

[Blackhawk748]

GF: <Gives evil eye as she walks arm in arm with [important person] and is passed by impossibly built teen cheerleader who comes running in> "And who is SHE?!?"

BF: <Catching sex on a stick as she jumps in his arms> "Oh, her? You mean one of my Planar Cohorts? Buffy, can you grab your sisters Candie and Cherri? I want to introduce you to my OLD girlfriend..."

**** Restaurant clears out before anyone takes cold damage from GF... ****

*falls out of chair laughing*

Anyway, she could just Fabricate several dozen statues of him and then cast HammerspaceTM and destroy all of them Ysma style.

[Metahuman1]

She makes him sweat.


"I'm gonna go to the Semi-elemental plane of milk chocolate for awhile and think about how I want to handle this."

As a GM I had a player who wanted in his back story that he was married to a high level caster (party was level 6 and he had also insisted on being a werewolf so he was level 3.). I think he was expecting later down the road to be able to get favors form her or something. Anyway, while they were in town something attacked them in there dreams and tried to take over there minds.

He failed the save, and attacked the party, and got beaten down for it but was not killed. But then I mentioned to them that what they were dreaming about was being out in a field on a lovely spring day with an amazingly beautiful, naked woman (and the girls got a freaking guy that should have been in a Harlequin Romance Novel.) and then he starts freaking out that "his characters wife is gonna kill him for this!".

So anyway he comes too and starts hoping she didn't find out and then I have her drop a spending spell that she knows and she's gonna have to think about how she want's to respond for this. He let out the most epic "Nooooooooo" I'd ever heard, much to the whole tables amusement.

[ddude987]

Mordekainen's Couch of Shame?.

along with some Mordekainen's Lubrication Lucubration

[ArqArturo]

along with some Mordekainen's Lubrication Lucubration

And Rary's tissues.

[Hazrond]

-snip-

I agree with this sentiment

[Segev]

Just out of curiosity, what if the question had been asked: What happens when a character pisses off her boyfriend... who just happens to be a level 15 wizard?

Would anyone have considered answering (switching the he/she as appropriate):





Would that still qualify as “Nah. Let’s see some silly”?

This is, incidentally, a game I like to play with many TV shows, books, and other stories. Swap all the genders, changing as little as possible while keeping it from becoming a farce. See how the behaviors change in tone.

One that has some less-than-obvious elements is Babylon 5. Mostly, things don't change much, but there are a few incidents...

Such as the episode where the "ground-pounders" are moving through the station on their way to a deployment. A female army grunt meets Garibaldi and the two of them hit it off, have a date...and then she tries to jump him for sex at the conclusion thereof. He is immensely put off and asks her to leave - he was not looking for a quick one-night stand.

The next day, she comes back to talk to him, and explains that she isn't out for a relationship, but sometimes she just has needs, because she's going into a life-and-death situation and doesn't know if she'll make it out. Garibaldi is understanding, and the whole tone of it is a little slanted towards how Garibaldi was being unfair for expecting otherwise and how she just had perfectly understandable motives that he should have understood and accepted without the reaction he had.


If you swap the genders here, you have an army grunt coming through town, sweet-talking a local woman, and then trying to jump her for sex and, the next day (after being told to get out because she's not that kind of girl), he comes back and basically explains to her that he just wants a one-night-stand and how it's acceptable and even to be expected. And the tone is making the girl out to be a jerk for having refused him.

Interesting how the latter comes off as more disturbing in its message than the former, no?

[Slipperychicken]

If you swap the genders here, you have an army grunt coming through town, sweet-talking a local woman, and then trying to jump her for sex and, the next day (after being told to get out because she's not that kind of girl), he comes back and basically explains to her that he just wants a one-night-stand and how it's acceptable and even to be expected. And the tone is making the girl out to be a jerk for having refused him.

Interesting how the latter comes off as more disturbing in its message than the former, no?[/spoiler]

Exactly. Why have standards when you can have double-standards?

[Sith_Happens]

Just out of curiosity, what if the question had been asked: What happens when a character pisses off her boyfriend... who just happens to be a level 15 wizard?

Would anyone have considered answering (switching the he/she as appropriate):

Would that still qualify as “Nah. Let’s see some silly”?

Depends. Is the girlfriend still an 11th level Cleric in this scenario?

[Hand_of_Vecna]

As a GM I had a player who wanted in his back story that he was married to a high level caster (party was level 6 and he had also insisted on being a werewolf so he was level 3.). I think he was expecting later down the road to be able to get favors form her or something.

Really cool story in its entirety. I can't help but think that high level wizard's ECL 6 SOs shouldn't be allowed to adventure.

Note: I hate the use of the word "allowed" in relationships. I've always felt that it suggests that the relationship is unequal. Or the relationship is equal and the word suggest inequality; you don't really mean allowed you mean "we've discussed this and my So has strong feelings about this which I've choosen to respect."

@ Rule 63 Babylon 5

Excellent show, it isn't brought up nearly enough. Rule 63 wouldn't be very disruptive for the Human and Minbari. The Vorlons and Shadows are genderless or at least their genders are unknown and irrelevent. I do see some significant changes in gender swapping the Centari and the Narn. The Centari have a caste system that includes systemic sexism.

The Narn seem to have a Spartan style hyper masculinity. Females can progress in their society but they have to excell at things like hand-to-hand combat while have equal or greater sexual dimorphism than humans. Also unlike Humans and Membari, when we see a dozen Narn soldiers they're all male.

You could of course gender swap the entire races, but both races exude a number of (mostly negative) traits that are generally associated with patriarcal sosieties. You could turn them into matriarcal societies, but to preserve the integrity of the show they would need to be female dominated societies that felt like patriarcal societies and this would change their general message and impact on the viewer in ways different from the usual gender swap.

Oh, the Lennier/Marcus Cole episodes would be super waifu fan service.

[Coidzor]

Well, she's not an ex-girlfriend, so presumably she still wants him capable of having boy-girl relations, or at least, capable of being restored to such a state...


Okay, how about this:

She casts Binding... chaining you to the couch for a year per caster level.

I don't know about you, but usually when significant others are tying me to horizontal surfaces, it ain't because they're mad. :smallamused:


Isn't it obvious? He has to sleep on the couch.

The couch is also a mimic.

[Seffbasilisk]

The BoEF has a 4th level Sor/Wiz spell called Jealousy that might just be the ticket.

[jiriku]

I'm a fan of "refuses to see you, and you have to talk to the familiar instead." There's nothing to tell you that you're in the Punishment Zone like having to negotiate with her cat whenever you want to talk with her.

I'm thinking that 15th level wealth could come into play. She's got the money to hire the town's most popular bard to compose an epic about what a jerk you were and then sing it the taverns until everyone has heard the song.

[Spacebatsy]

Depends. Is the girlfriend still an 11th level Cleric in this scenario?

Does it matter? I’m not very well versed in the DnD class system, but assuming that the situation still is that the one being pissed off is much more powerful than the other. I don’t see how another class or one or two levels up or down comes into play.

I may be misunderstanding you question :smallsmile:

[Slipperychicken]

Does it matter? I’m not very well versed in the DnD class system, but assuming that the situation still is that the one being pissed off is much more powerful than the other. I don’t see how another class or one or two levels up or down comes into play.

I may be misunderstanding you question :smallsmile:

If the wizard girlfriend isn't powergamed out the wazoo, an 11th level cleric might have a good chance to not get curbstomped if he makes a serious effort to resist her retribution.

[Segev]

@ Rule 63 Babylon 5

Excellent show, it isn't brought up nearly enough. Rule 63 wouldn't be very disruptive for the Human and Minbari. The Vorlons and Shadows are genderless or at least their genders are unknown and irrelevent. I do see some significant changes in gender swapping the Centari and the Narn. The Centari have a caste system that includes systemic sexism.

The Narn seem to have a Spartan style hyper masculinity. Females can progress in their society but they have to excell at things like hand-to-hand combat while have equal or greater sexual dimorphism than humans. Also unlike Humans and Membari, when we see a dozen Narn soldiers they're all male.

You could of course gender swap the entire races, but both races exude a number of (mostly negative) traits that are generally associated with patriarcal sosieties. You could turn them into matriarcal societies, but to preserve the integrity of the show they would need to be female dominated societies that felt like patriarcal societies and this would change their general message and impact on the viewer in ways different from the usual gender swap.

Oh, the Lennier/Marcus Cole episodes would be super waifu fan service.

I agree! Babylon 5 is an interesting one to bring up because the swap would be highly inobvious for so much of the cast. (That is, if you didn't know the original had them with the original genders, you might not realize something was "off" just from having Captain Jane Sheridan giving her speeches and the wise male!half-human/half-minbari being a soft-spoken ally with a badass monk-girl minbari assistant.

That's what makes it neat to do it with, because the places the swap creates jarring, disturbing scenarios are all the more revealing of the deeply-rooted gender-role expectations.

I will note that I am not a crusader against gender roles. Nor am I crusader to enforce them. But I find how deeply they are entrenched in our subconscious zeitgeist to be fascinating, whether they're ancient ones or reflections of modern backlashes against ancient ones.

One closer to the spirit of this thread is Love Hina, an anime about a young man who is trying to get into college who becomes the manager of an all-girls dorm (also college-age).
The main female crush is regularly angry with him for (accidental appearance of) perverse behavior, and reacts with comedic violence. It's played, obviously, for laughs, and even when he doesn't deserve it, there's an underlying "ha ha cartoon violence" tone that hints it's okay. She's rarely if ever actually depicted as being in the wrong, even when he clearly wasn't at fault, either. Even the time she bursts into HIS room while he's changing and gets mad because she saw him naked.

Swap those genders, make it a girl trying to get into college who manages an all-boys dorm, and who keeps getting violently punished for (accidental appearance of) perverted behavior towards the boys... play it for laughs even when the main male crush bursts in on her while she's changing and HE punches HER through the wall for being a "pervert."

Actually, the author of Love Hina has a theme of "Rule 63" making his works go from funny to creepy (or, if you like, revealing how creepy they are behind the humor). Negima (which actually is an awesome shounen action story once the author managed to sneak it past his publisher who wanted another harem tale) is about an 11-year-old genius mage teaching English at an all-girls middle school, with 14-year-old students.

This one's not creepy for comedic violence, but the 14-year-old girls all are a bit sweet on their 11-year-old teacher. He's kinda clueless about it, because he's not mentally or physically in that "noticing girls" place yet.

Swap those genders, and it goes from being kinda-sweet/kinda-funny to "14-year-old boys having romantic intentions towards an 11-year-old girl," which...well. I will leave you to draw your own conclusions.

But while anime were the first things that I realized this game was so intriguing to play, I like finding things like Babylon 5 to do it to because the results are more subtle under most circumstances, which makes the stand-out oddities more intriguing.

[daremetoidareyo]

Assuming that a hearfelt letter doesn't grant her the relief that she wants.

She can haunt shift all of his gear. He'll be a level 11 cleric that has to chase his backpack, divine focus, armor and mace around the campsite. That will make for a terrible thing to awaken to in the middle of the night.

If a lesson needs to be taught to the entire group from her perspective, haunt shifting the caster's spell book and other's weapons also makes for a rough night.

[Segev]

Haunt Shift is SUCH a fun spell. "Gain permanently-controlled animated objects" would be a better name for it.

[Sith_Happens]

Does it matter? I’m not very well versed in the DnD class system, but assuming that the situation still is that the one being pissed off is much more powerful than the other. I don’t see how another class or one or two levels up or down comes into play.

I may be misunderstanding you question :smallsmile:

Speaking to the thread topic in general:

1. The kind of stuff you generally go through to reach double-digit levels within a single age category could quite well have a profound warping effect on what you consider "appropriate retribution."

2. The sheer level of durability that goes with being that high level can reduce all sorts of things from "overkill" to "harmless prank."

Speaking to the specific issue of "swap the genders in this scenario and how different does it look:"

3. The difference in public perceptions of female-on-male versus male-on-female abuse is primarily an issue of relative perceived power in the relationship and/or everyday life. For most reasonable people (or at least I'd hope), any perceived effects of gender on power are going to be overshadowed by the far greater and very tangible power that comes with character level.

[Dimers]

She can haunt shift all of his gear. He'll be a level 11 cleric that has to chase his backpack, divine focus, armor and mace around the campsite. That will make for a terrible thing to awaken to in the middle of the night.

Puts me in mind of frisky chest, a 2nd-level spell in the AD&D Tome Of Magic which permanently made the ensorcelled item run/swim/fly away from anyone but you, at very high speeds.

... Aaaaand it's only now occuring to me that frisky chest and weighty chest might have been sly references to mammaries. D'oh. :smallredface:

[Kaeso]

...who just happens to be a level 15 wizard?

What's her alignment? If she's Chaotic Neutral or any of the Evil alignments, her fury could range from a slap in the face to total protonic reversal. Which makes you wonder what kind of man would date a woman who's powerful and clearly insane.

EDIT: Then again, not all Evil characters are insane. She could be pure evil but still have a soft spot for her man. That would make it lean more to the slap in the face and less to total protonic reversal.

[Segev]

The difference in public perceptions of female-on-male versus male-on-female abuse is primarily an issue of relative perceived power in the relationship and/or everyday life. For most reasonable people (or at least I'd hope), any perceived effects of gender on power are going to be overshadowed by the far greater and very tangible power that comes with character level.

That may be the source of the double-standard, but it is not overridden by the truth being inverted. For example, many "magical girlfriend" anime feature a supernaturally powerful female and a mortal male, yet the girl-on-boy comedic violence is still played for laughs.

To find a good example to play this game with, though, is a little tricky. I will choose Inuyasha, because it at least provides the right power discrepancy. In the canon version, Kagome is a girl whose sole power over her magical boyfriend is that he's cursed to wear a seal around his neck (looks like a beaded necklace) that lets her use a magical phrase (in the dub, "SIT, BOY!") to force him to slam face-first into the ground. He is, for the most part, otherwise far stronger and more powerful than she is.

He is also rather violent...but not towards her. This high violence is WHY the seal is on him, admittedly, so she CAN control him and keep him from hurting people he shouldn't. Still, this becomes less important very quickly, and she mostly uses it in the "comedic retribution" style when relationship stuff makes her mad at him. "SIT! SIT! SIT! SIT!" to repeatedly slam him into the ground ends more than one scene or episode.

Now, he can take it; he's tough.

But, if we invert the genders, so Kagome is male (now in a boy's school uniform) and Inuyasha is female (and probably in miko-wear rather than hakama), the power dynamic remains objectively teh same. Inuyasha is a crazy-strong demon-woman who can tear people limb-from-limb as easily as most people tear leaves off of plants. Kagome is a young man who is tasked with keeping her from killing innocents, and can do so by saying, "SIT, GIRL!" and forcibly slamming her into the ground.

She can take it; she's tough. But still, this wouldn't be nearly so "funny" to most modern audiences, when Kagome-the-boy punishes Inuyasha-the-girl for embarassing or upsetting him or for flirting with another man (or even seeming to have done so) by repeatedly slamming her into the ground.


So despite the perceived power imbalance being the source of the double-standard, the double-standard is not BASED in it. A massively powerful female being physically abused by her mortal boyfriend is still going to get people upset at the boy, rather than laughing at the girl; a massively powerful boy being physically abused by his mortal girlfriend is going to largely be played for laughs.




Heck, let's take this thread: a lot of it is "what humorous retribution can this 15th level wizardess do to a mere 11th level cleric boyfriend who's upset her?" That SHOULD trigger, if the "power balance is all that matters" theory holds, the outrage that a powerful partner would pick on a weaker one, but it really didn't. Conversely, if it has been, "what humorous retribution can this 11th level cleric do to a 15th level wizardess girlfriend who's upset him?" it would still have had the more disturbed reaction we get if we invert Love Hina's genders, or Garibaldi's and that grunt's genders.

[Sith_Happens]

[Snip]

Guess it's just me then, but I'd probably still think it was funny.

http://i3.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/010/289/tumblr_m3372wF4Co1qdjrgdo1_400.png

[Dimers]

I don't know any 15th-level wizards or 11th-level clerics in real life, so to get this to a level I can think about in viable terms, I'm imagining Barack Obama as the more powerful male and Hillary Clinton as the less powerful (but still friggin' powerful) female. Like the proposed boyfriend and girlfriend, they're on the same side but they could reasonably have a falling-out. And I gotta tell ya ... I would be so amused I'd laugh my cheeks off if I heard about Obama abusing his Secret Service powers to blow up Hillary's toilet, fill her sock drawer with shaving cream, short-sheet her bed and snipe at her with paintballs filled with paint that looks just like bird poop just before she's supposed to have a big meeting. (In this fantasy world, it doesn't cost anybody taxpayer dollars to have the Secret Service do these things, just like it doesn't cost gameworld peasantry to have the wizard magically pick on the cleric.) I would be totally okay with a male doing that to a less powerful female, yes. I'd consider it immature and counterproductive and -- no name pun intended -- hilarious.