What Tier are the MoI classes?

[Drrakerr]

Incarnate, Totemist, and Soulborn were not on the tier list I looked at. I was just curious as to what tier they belong in. I've heard that the Incarnum classes are pretty solid, but specifically, are they Tier 1 might as well let them d everything solid, or T3 "good but not to the point of making the game boring for everyone else"

[Fouredged Sword]

Incarnate and Totemist are tier 3. They generally do one thing well and then do a variety of other things alright. Soulborn is tier 5, as it fails to do anything well.

Hope that answered your question.

[Drrakerr]

I believe so, thank you.

[Fax Celestis]

Note that a lot of the Soulborn-unique melds are actually pretty fantastic and might be worth spending a feat on to gain access to (Thunderstep Greaves, I'm looking at you).

[Story]

I've seen some arguments over Totemist placement in the past and whether they should be 3 or 4 (much like Warblade), so they're probably low tier 3.

[Psyren]

Nah, they're much more comfortably in T3 than Warblades I'd say. While a Warblade is fantastic at straightforward melee but very limited otherwise, Totemists are fantastic at straightforward melee and also bring more to the table - great ranged combat, can target various saving throws, good stealth, minor social skills (moderate to animals and magical beasts), and bring utility to the table like swimming, tracking, teleportation and flight.

[Vhaidara]

I've seen some arguments over Totemist placement in the past and whether they should be 3 or 4 (much like Warblade), so they're probably low tier 3.

I don't get that. Totemist has built in versatility that goes beyond combat. In class flight is amazing, Blink Shirt for maneuverability, and a lot of good skill bonuses.

[Chronos]

While Totemist does have some interesting out-of-combat abilities, good stealth isn't one of them. Everyone who's making any effort at all at stealth is going to have either a Cloak and Boots of Elvenkind or Shadow and Silent Moves armor, and Totemist doesn't get anything that stacks with those.

Blink Shirt and Phase Cloak, however, are great, and they can get an excellent Spot check.

[Psyren]

While Totemist does have some interesting out-of-combat abilities, good stealth isn't one of them. Everyone who's making any effort at all at stealth is going to have either a Cloak and Boots of Elvenkind or Shadow and Silent Moves armor, and Totemist doesn't get anything that stacks with those.

Putting aside the obvious - that getting those bonuses in-class means they can allocate their wealth elsewhere - they can also create magical darkness at will to hide in that they can still see through. At mid levels they can turn ethereal while moving (i.e. auto succeed at move silent) and at very high levels they can just flat-out go ethereal for ultimate stealth.

[DeAnno]

I agree with Totemist and Incarnate being T3, but Soulborn might be able to push low T4? They have an awful start but the melds are good and by the end they have a reasonable amount of stuff. I think they are certainly at least high T5, up there with Fighter.

[Vhaidara]

I agree with Totemist and Incarnate being T3, but Soulborn might be able to push low T4? They have an awful start but the melds are good and by the end they have a reasonable amount of stuff. I think they are certainly at least high T5, up there with Fighter.

Not really. They just get so little essentia, so few melds, and it all comes online so late

[Grod_The_Giant]

One might argue that Incarnate is high T4-- it can do a lot of things, but it's not easy to be good at any of them. Especially combat, once you get past level 5 or so.

[Fax Celestis]

One might argue that Incarnate is high T4-- it can do a lot of things, but it's not easy to be good at any of them. Especially combat, once you get past level 5 or so.

Someone needs to reread Incarnate By The Numbers.

[Psyren]

Someone needs to reread Incarnate By The Numbers.

One of my favorite threads from WotC-land, btw.

Did it get reposted anywhere? I am loathe to leave anything optimization-related at their mercy. If no one else will replicate it I will, though I don't have an account over there to ask Todd first.

[Lans]

Someone needs to reread Incarnate By The Numbers.

Even going by that the incarnates numbers aren't really great.

[HunterOfJello]

I would like to read a good write-up of the Incarnate and Totemist class with builds at levels 2, 5, 10, 15, and 20 describing their abilities, playstyle, and how the class works in the game at each level. I feel like I still don't understand how the classes work at higher levels even after reading every detail about them from MoI and thinking about the classes a lot. It's easy to see how a Warblade, Druid, Psion, or Binder would operate at higher levels, but that just isn't true for the MoI classes.

Does anyone know of examples where someone has done this?

[Psyren]

I would like to read a good write-up of the Incarnate and Totemist class with builds at levels 2, 5, 10, 15, and 20 describing their abilities, playstyle, and how the class works in the game at each level. I feel like I still don't understand how the classes work at higher levels even after reading every detail about them from MoI and thinking about the classes a lot. It's easy to see how a Warblade, Druid, Psion, or Binder would operate at higher levels, but that just isn't true for the MoI classes.

Does anyone know of examples where someone has done this?

I've personally played a Totemist to 15 (albeit in Pathfinder but that only led to minor changes.) Level 1 is rough before you get your totem chakra but with light armor, a decent weapon and your Wormtail Belt or Lammasu Mantle for some bonus AC you usually get along fine; that or the route I took, Warforged with Adamantine Body. Rageclaws also effectively doubles your HP by letting you fight in negatives, making low level combat a lot less swingy. Once you get Totem it generally comes down to piling on as many natural weapons as you can and shredding things.

[Talionis]

I would like to read a good write-up of the Incarnate and Totemist class with builds at levels 2, 5, 10, 15, and 20 describing their abilities, playstyle, and how the class works in the game at each level. I feel like I still don't understand how the classes work at higher levels even after reading every detail about them from MoI and thinking about the classes a lot. It's easy to see how a Warblade, Druid, Psion, or Binder would operate at higher levels, but that just isn't true for the MoI classes.

Does anyone know of examples where someone has done this?

I would second this.

There have been many excellent handbooks written, but not too many guides that describe playstyle. The excuse has been that they are so flexible that there is no ONE playstyle, but more examples would help people to see the kinds of things that Incarnum users are capable of.

The lack of many good prestige classes in the book also has led to less optimization and talk about what Incarnum users do at various levels.

While Incarnates do stack up BY THE NUMBERS well. They tend to be feat hungry in doing it since they don't have the bonus feats a Fighter has. Even by the numbers doesn't exactly spell out how an incarnate is supposed to attack on offense and I've seen multiple threads started wondering what Incarnates do on Offense.

As for Tiers, I would say they are both low three. They have so much flexibility that while they might not be the best at things they usually can do a host of things.

Soulborn is Tier 5. It has some good Soulmelds and gets some chakra. Yes it's designed poorly. They value full BAB too much, and needed Soulborn too much, but it's capable of doing some things well and has some bonus feats itself.

[Piggy Knowles]

Incarnates are tough to play, because they are so versatile that it's easy to spread yourself thin and end up being kind of mediocre at everything. Instead, it's important to really focus on doing a couple of things extraordinarily well, looking up stacking soulmelds and ones that provide passive abilities, spending most of your essentia in just a couple of melds. You can still switch what you're really good at from day to day, and with Rapid Meldshaping even from encounter to encounter.

Their other problem is that their best abilities are mostly defensive. I'd argue that they might be the non-casting class with the best defenses in the game (sorry, Crusader) - in addition to getting AC (including touch AC) incredibly high, they can easily boost their saves, become immune to a huge swath of abilities and effects, pick up SR or DR, etc. It's a lot harder to play an effective defensive PC than an offensive one.

That said, the divide between low tier 3 and high tier 4 is a fuzzy one, and I'd say that both classes hover somewhere in that divide.

[Psyren]

To add to the list of defenses above, both Totemists and Incarnates can also get bonkers amount of bonus HP, nearly as much as a Psywar or Psion. This is in addition to rewarding you for greater than average Con, particularly in the Totemist's case.

[Segev]

I've lately found myself contemplating Incarnate/Totemist as an entry path into Chameleon, though the skill prerequisites are dire as neither Bluff nor Diplomacy are Incarnate nor Totemist class skills. Even with Able Learner, you can't exceed your cross-class rank caps.

Still, an Incarnate 4/Totemist 2 has something like 6-7 soulmelds and 4 chakras (including Totem) available, not to mention a decent raw pool of essentia for a level 6 character. Take a level of rogue, perhaps, pushing you to level 7, and you easily make the skill repreqs, leaving you with levels 8-17 to take Chameleon.

The versatility of soulmelds would seem, conceptually, to combine well with the versatility of Chameleon.

[Chronos]

I'd argue that the Binder probably gets better defenses than the Incarnate, though it's tough to say, since they're different sorts of defenses.

And the other tricky part about tiering the Incarnum classes is that the tier system isn't really designed to accommodate dips, and one of the main virtues of incarnum is its dippability. It's almost too dippable, in fact. For instance, an incarnate can, with some effort, become nearly as good a skillmonkey as a rogue... but a multiclassed incarnate/rogue can be a better skillmonkey than either separately, and the optimum mix of the two has only a single level of incarnate (plus perhaps three levels of Umbral Disciple, a MoI prestige class). How do you rate something that works best with only one level? Well, because of the value of that single level, or poorly, because of the other 19?

[Psyren]

I've lately found myself contemplating Incarnate/Totemist as an entry path into Chameleon, though the skill prerequisites are dire as neither Bluff nor Diplomacy are Incarnate nor Totemist class skills. Even with Able Learner, you can't exceed your cross-class rank caps.

Still, an Incarnate 4/Totemist 2 has something like 6-7 soulmelds and 4 chakras (including Totem) available, not to mention a decent raw pool of essentia for a level 6 character. Take a level of rogue, perhaps, pushing you to level 7, and you easily make the skill repreqs, leaving you with levels 8-17 to take Chameleon.

The versatility of soulmelds would seem, conceptually, to combine well with the versatility of Chameleon.

I can see that working though I'd be loathe to give up the chakra binds personally.

Honestly for Incarnate I'd either go Soul Manifester or Sapphire Hierarch if I was PrCing and felt the itch to cast for some reason. Especially the former since psionics gets you all the chakras up to Throat and Waist.

[Segev]

I can see that working though I'd be loathe to give up the chakra binds personally.Rather understandable. There's some ability to get this back via psionic items or feats (especially with the Chameleon's floating feat), but it's definitely an opportunity cost.


Honestly for Incarnate I'd either go Soul Manifester or Sapphire Hierarch if I was PrCing and felt the itch to cast for some reason. Especially the former since psionics gets you all the chakras up to Throat and Waist.
Chameleon isn't something you take "for casting." It will never be the best choice to cast well, even from multiple lists. You take it for extreme versatility.

[PsyBomb]

CN Incarnates that focus make better skillmonkeys than just about anything. They can get VERY high modifiers on all the sneak and disarm skills, plus UMD, and this route doesn't eat their Feats up (other than Bonus Essentia). They can then spend those said feats to be come reasonably capable ranged combatants when combined with their Avatar. This won't ever be their primary focus, but Shared Radiance helps your party out (plus any other support Melds you have space for).

Totemists are VERY capable combatants and reasonably good non-urban skill users (plus easily the highest Wild Empathy modifier you can get your hands on without devoting your entire build to it). They can Melee pounce or go ranged, and get BFC plus alternate movement modes.

[Piggy Knowles]

Totemists also make incredible scouts and guards. With Spot as a class skill and three separate soulmelds that all get stacking bonuses to Spot, they might have the best Spot checks in D&D. And with easy access to alternate senses, such as scent, tremorsense, blindsight, magic detection and telepathy for Mindsight, there is very little that can get past a well-built Totemist.

[DeAnno]

plus perhaps three levels of Umbral Disciple, a MoI prestige class

Umbral Disciple 3 is a VERY good Prestige class, especially because it is so easy to qualify for. The HIPS it provides is much more reliable than many other varieties and comes with its own hard-to-no-sell concealment too. The two Theurge classes are pretty decent as those go too with very easy qualification on the Incarnum side and full double-leveling.

[Chronos]

Quoth PsyBomb:

CN Incarnates that focus make better skillmonkeys than just about anything. They can get VERY high modifiers on all the sneak and disarm skills, plus UMD, and this route doesn't eat their Feats up (other than Bonus Essentia). They can then spend those said feats to be come reasonably capable ranged combatants when combined with their Avatar. This won't ever be their primary focus, but Shared Radiance helps your party out (plus any other support Melds you have space for).
They can get numbers as high or higher than a standard skillmonkey in most skills... but it takes cross-class skill ranks to get them there. Which means that you're going to be limited to a very small number of skills to do that in, and you can't change those skills out. And they have no way at all of boosting Hide or Move Silently beyond things that literally all classes can get.

[Segev]

They can get numbers as high or higher than a standard skillmonkey in most skills... but it takes cross-class skill ranks to get them there. Which means that you're going to be limited to a very small number of skills to do that in, and you can't change those skills out. And they have no way at all of boosting Hide or Move Silently beyond things that literally all classes can get.

Able Learner will let you get more skills, if not higher ranks thereof. Cross class skills will suddenly only cost 1 sp per rank.

[Fouredged Sword]

You are still stuck with 2+int. Now, as a human with decent int and able learner you can still max out 6-10 cross class skills. You are very different than a rogue, but you can make it work as a skill monkey.

[Harrow]

I feel like I still don't understand how the classes work at higher levels even after reading every detail about them from MoI and thinking about the classes a lot. It's easy to see how a Warblade, Druid, Psion, or Binder would operate at higher levels, but that just isn't true for the MoI classes.

A lot of people feel this way. You need to read all the way through MoI like 6 times before you understand it, and some of the abilities just need playtesting to be able to wrap your head around them. I've read all of MoI twice, going for a third, and I still make mistakes. Part of it is the atrocious way it was put together ; things are just not where they should be. The weird scaling of abilities doesn't help. With Wizards, you can clearly see at X level you get Y spell which does Z thing. With Incarnates and Totemists, you get all of X abilities at level 1. These abilities then scale as you put resources into them. You get more resources with class levels, and the cap of how much resource can be put into a single ability goes up with HD (good luck finding the table for that, not just this time, but the next dozen times you want to look at it) some class abilities, a feat, or a magic item. Also, you can gain W, Y, and Z extra abilities tacked on to the old abilities, some of which stop you from having other abilities or magic items, at certain class levels or if you take specific feats with HD requirements. Don't forget, you can only have so many of these higher level abilities at a time, based on class level.

It's a complicated system, and even if you spend many hours mastering it, you don't get some super broken destroyer of worlds, just a character that makes you wince when someone asks "What does he do?"

You can still pull some fun things out of it, but for most people it isn't worth the effort when they could just build a character by throwing darts at the Tome of Battle and get a character just as effective, if not necessarily as interesting.


I've lately found myself contemplating Incarnate/Totemist as an entry path into Chameleon, though the skill prerequisites are dire as neither Bluff nor Diplomacy are Incarnate nor Totemist class skills. Even with Able Learner, you can't exceed your cross-class rank caps.

Still, an Incarnate 4/Totemist 2 has something like 6-7 soulmelds and 4 chakras (including Totem) available, not to mention a decent raw pool of essentia for a level 6 character. Take a level of rogue, perhaps, pushing you to level 7, and you easily make the skill repreqs, leaving you with levels 8-17 to take Chameleon.

The versatility of soulmelds would seem, conceptually, to combine well with the versatility of Chameleon.

I would suggest getting a level of Human Paragon in early. Adaptive Learning gives you a handful of permanent Class Skills, and then once you taken a few levels of Chameleon you can take a second level of Human Paragon to get another bonus feat and maybe even a third for an ability boost. Though, I probably wouldn't dip out of Chameleon until after at least Chameleon 7, maybe not even until I'd finished with Chameleon entirely.

You may even be able to get a permissive DM to houserule Adaptive Learning as a substitute for Able Learner for Chameleon entry requirements.

[Segev]

I would suggest getting a level of Human Paragon in early. Adaptive Learning gives you a handful of permanent Class Skills, and then once you taken a few levels of Chameleon you can take a second level of Human Paragon to get another bonus feat and maybe even a third for an ability boost. Though, I probably wouldn't dip out of Chameleon until after at least Chameleon 7, maybe not even until I'd finished with Chameleon entirely.

You may even be able to get a permissive DM to houserule Adaptive Learning as a substitute for Able Learner for Chameleon entry requirements.

Not a bad suggestion. I was thinking Changeling for the race, but human is perhaps more viable; I hadn't thought about Human Paragon to get the skill reqs.