This is how I feel about Drow

[Dalebert]

They're the super-evilest of the evil humanoids. They're an underground race. Why isn't their skin really pale? So racist.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vlhtL0AEMs

[Phelix-Mu]

They are the opposite of elves (thematically speaking). Elves are already pale. Ergo, the drow are dark-skinned.

If we want to go further back, in Tolkien and in Norse mythology, there are light elves and dark elves. In Tolkien, the original elves are children of the light, and yearn to return to the Undying Lands, where the light of the Lanterns/Trees still calls to them (via the stars).

In Norse mythology, the dark elves aren't necessarily bad, they are just swarthy elves of the earth, as opposed to the fair-skinned elves of the heavens (who shine like the sun), dokkalfar and ljosalfar respectively. Again, this isn't so much about good and evil as about dark and light. The Norse probably didn't know that light-deprivation results in the evolution of albinism.

Of course, some theories extend this to Norse/Eurocentric views on skin color and values, so the OP's point is far from invalid.

[Talya]

In D&D, Drow are black...REALLY black, the way no humans are.

Surface elves run the rest of the spectrum, including the brown hues that we call "black" skin in English vernacular.

[Phelix-Mu]

In D&D, Drow are black...REALLY black, the way no humans are.

Surface elves run the rest of the spectrum, including the brown hues that we call "black" skin in English vernacular.

This is also a good point. I've seen art of both sylvan/wood elves and jungle/wild elves with deep bronze skin, definitely a departure from the older mythological references of European mythology.

Also of note, the past couple centuries saw the general European views on paleness/tanned skin flip-flop. Previously, pale skin was a mark of good social standing, as only those forced to work outside had a tan. Sometime since the Industrial Revolution, it became a mark of status to be able to spend leisure time in the sun, and most workers began to work indoors. Hence the current state of fake tans and tanning salons, where people spend money to darken their skin.

It's always troublesome to pinpoint precise influences in D&D beyond things like "Tolkien" or "European mythology," because usually there are are whole bunch of factors that went into the creative process. Not to mention decades of grandfathering in stuff from previous editions, refluffing, and so forth.

I mean, look at what happened to the drow after 4e came about. Decades worth of lore shredded, with mixed results in popularity. I personally like drow; any society where a good character is the natural underdog and has to find a way to hope and believe in virtue while in the midst of rank depravity is a fertile ground for concepts. And that's just for reformed drow trying to break the mold; there are countless neutral and evil archetypes that I also find appealing. I could care less about their skin color; exotic looks are a plus in my book, and they were definitely aiming for exotic with the original concept.

[Dalebert]

I personally like drow; any society where a good character is the natural underdog and has to find a way to hope and believe in virtue while in the midst of rank depravity is a fertile ground for concepts. And that's just for reformed drow trying to break the mold; there are countless neutral and evil archetypes that I also find appealing. I could care less about their skin color; exotic looks are a plus in my book, and they were definitely aiming for exotic with the original concept.

I do too. One of my recent characters was a drow. I just like the asthetic of extremely dark skin and elven features and I like the idea of someone escaping that evil and choosing to be their own person.

http://i.imgur.com/Rq66YAz.jpg

D&D just follows mythology and culture, of course. I think it reflects that. Some pretty good arguments have been made about Tolkien's works (HUGE inspiration for D&D, obviously) being fairly (probably unintentionally) racist. There's not even one good orc, after all. It was a battle for "the race of men" or whatever that line was that actually made it into the movies.

[Phelix-Mu]

I do too. One of my recent characters was a drow. I just like the asthetic of extremely dark skin and elven features and I like the idea of someone escaping that evil and choosing to be their own person.

D&D just follows mythology and culture, of course. I think it reflects that. Some pretty good arguments have been made about Tolkien's works (HUGE inspiration for D&D, obviously) being fairly racist. There's not even one good orc, after all. It was a battle for "the race of men" or whatever that line was that actually made it into the movies.

Yeah. The "Men of Westernesse" was way too real-world reference for me to like it. The only good part was that Sauron duped them just the same as everyone else, and they fell from grace, so to speak. Tolkien's work was interesting in that it was both human-centric (all other races become footnotes in the age subsequent to the LotR) as well as being rather dystopian. Magic is ending, the children of the light are leaving the world, and all remaining hope is in the hands of men (who have proven to be an extremely mixed-bag).

In a sense, the world moves from the black-white paradigm of the past (Morgoth=bad, others=good) to a more realistic paradigm in which the judgement of men, in all its flawed glory, determines the fate of the world. The hobbits themselves are a nod to the individual, the way in which the world is not so much a land dominated by huge, impersonal, cosmic forces, but a collection of individuals, even the meekest of which can change the world.

The interesting thing about D&D is that it is set in a throwback to Tolkien's earlier eras, where elves and dwarves are something more than the shadows of their past selves that they are in LotR. Yet, despite this, much of elves and dwarves are cast in the same mold as the humans, that of imperfection and individuality (things not necessarily present in the Tolkien archetypes).

The Sundering of the Elves in D&D always struck me as emblematic of the more elemental conflict in Tolkien between elves and orcs (since orcs are, at times, implied to be elves warped by Morgoth's torments). In D&D, the orc/elf thing is inherited from their gods (not that this isn't the case with the drow, but the drow are still elves, whereas D&D orcs aren't), which seems less...less compelling than the dynamic than the elves and the drow. I always liked a good brothers' war.

[AugustNights]

While I don't like races or cultures to be out and out evil (however, long standing grudge wars with a similar group that may have or may not have exiled them to the most dangerous part of the world? That could result in interesting stories...) There are other factors in a creature's skin color than protection from the sun. One might also consider the evolutionary advantage of camouflage.
Still, evilist-evil of races seems to be how they are often depicted, so the choice to make them "dark-elves" was rather poorly thought out and full of unfortunate implications (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/UnfortunateImplications).

[Lodraygazagtar]

Nothing to see here folks; just accusations of racism.

[Psyren]

Pathfinder Drow are closer to dark purple and this is probably the reason why. They did something similar to Jinx and Mr. Popo in Pokemon and DBZ, respectively.

http://paizo.com/image/content/SecondDarkness/PZO9013-Drow.jpg

[Anlashok]

They're a palette swap. A twisted, inverted reflection.

Seriously this stuff is pretty straight forward, people way overthink this crap.

Pathfinder Drow are closer to dark purple and this is probably the reason why. They did something similar to Jinx and Mr. Popo in Pokemon and DBZ, respectively.

http://paizo.com/image/content/SecondDarkness/PZO9013-Drow.jpg

Not really new, D&D drow are sometimes portrayed as purplish black, bluish black or dark grey to varying degrees.

[Lodraygazagtar]

Pathfinder Drow are closer to dark purple and this is probably the reason why. They did something similar to Jinx and Mr. Popo in Pokemon and DBZ, respectively.

http://paizo.com/image/content/SecondDarkness/PZO9013-Drow.jpg

Purple is better on nature-y elves.

[Phelix-Mu]

Drow were always more blue-black or coal-black than anything approaching a real-world shade of skin-color. As I mentioned before, they were going for exotic; earlier editions had them with glowing eyes (in infravision, at least), white beards/mustaches on the males, and armour that dissolved when removed from the Underdark (now I think it just loses some of its coolness).

Sylvan elves are much more bronzed-looking, and they are nothing but bada**, as far as I'm concerned. And much more actual in-game racism is explored in degrees of elven purism, along with the many other races (drow included) that believes themselves innately superior to everyone else.

As I mentioned before, there may be some correlation here, but it's all rather more muddled than "the game ~ real life, therefor they copied it wholesale." Generally, I give people the benefit of the doubt, and if something truly bizarre surfaces (like the spellplague), then I just ignore it/Marvel's Universes it away.

[Lodraygazagtar]

Anyone else here who prefers the main fantasy races to have lifespans close to humans>

[Phelix-Mu]

Anyone else here who prefers the main fantasy races to have lifespans close to humans>

I actually prefer varying lifespans, as it is one of the underpinnings of the variances in racial psychologies. Humans have short lives but big dreams, and so they move forward with a relentless rhythm, always trying to give form to their dreams in dramatic fashion (at least the heroes do). Dwarves live long but have few children, especially compared to their somewhat militaristic settings/territorial conflicts with various other races, leading to their strong family/clan bonds that define their relatively orderly society. Elves are highly individualistic, believing that every person should be allowed to follow their own path; a big part of how this works is that every elf, no matter how different at first, eventually ends up more moderate, after living through many ages of man, having had ample time to pursue any given passion for decades (the average elf has around fifty adult decades to be apportioning to whatever they want). Long-lived races can have periods of passion or travel and danger, but those tempos are hard to maintain in the long run (even as they are hard for humans to maintain into late life).

I think the array of possible interracial reactions is much more interesting with more diversity, and differences in aging processes is a fairly big matter, in my mind. It can introduce problems in a long-running game, however, if all of the cast members aren't aging at the same rate, and this can create a somewhat unrealistic tendency to pursue immortality/life extension, where a more normal reaction to getting old might be to retire (which sounds quite boring as a player, as opposed to living forever=cool beans in the minds of most).

[Shining Wrath]

There's always the question of privilege in things like this, that a bunch of white Midwesterners started D&D and probably didn't even consider RL race one way or another when describing Drow. I don't think they set out to offend RL black people, it just didn't occur to them that it might offend. It probably never occurred to Gygax and Arnesson to think about Drow from an African-American perspective.

Lots of that going around.

But there's reasons to make Drow black other than "Hey, they are opposite-day Elves!". They live (but can still see!) in pitch darkness and rely on stealth and ambush. It's not what we see in nature, but for a fantasy world, "blends into the darkness" works rather than "loses all eyesight and learns to rely on other senses" that we see in our cave crickets.

Anyway, I dislike the idea of more-or-less "normal" creatures having forced alignments. The more a creature is inherently magical, though, the more the question of what sort of magic imbues it arises; e.g., the magic that enables a black dragon to fly *might* be of a different sort than that which enables flight of copper dragons. And then most undead can only be powered by pure negative energy, which makes their alignment at least 99% predictable.

[Lodraygazagtar]

There's always the question of privilege in things like this, that a bunch of white Midwesterners started D&D and probably didn't even consider RL race one way or another when describing Drow. I don't think they set out to offend RL black people, it just didn't occur to them that it might offend. It probably never occurred to Gygax and Arnesson to think about Drow from an African-American perspective.
e.
Because they don't need to. Anyone who is offended by Drows needs to get a life and stop acting like we still live in the dark ages.
Hey, I might be wrong. So tell me, what is so offensive about drows?

[Anlashok]

I don't think they set out to offend RL black people, it just didn't occur to them that it might offend.

Why would they need to? We're discussing a fantastical race that shares nothing in terms of appearance or mannerisms of a caricature or stereotype.

[Lodraygazagtar]

Why would they need to? We're discussing a fantastical race that shares nothing in terms of appearance or mannerisms of a caricature or stereotype.

But...but... DARK SKIN11!!!!!1
/sarcasm

[Shining Wrath]

If people don't realize that there's an awful lot of black = evil in this world, ask a black person sometime if they are tired of that meme.

[Anlashok]

If people don't realize that there's an awful lot of black = evil in this world, ask a black person sometime if they are tired of that meme.

It's not really a meme, it's a color association and again, has very little to do with race (although it has been historically used that way at times its origins have to do with darkness).

You have to stretch really really hard to find Dark Elves offensive. To the point where it's hard to even take the idea seriously.

[Forrestfire]

My headcanon:

Darkvision sees in black and white, not in another spectrum or anything. Cavern walls and other things are going to show up as very dark colors. There's an evolutionary advantage to black and dark grey skin in a world where anything that can see in the dark sees only in black and white. Only devils get colors in the dark, and they don't live on the material plane, so they wouldn't prompt a change (and even then, if the tunnel walls are dark gray, it's easier to blend in in that case).

Whether or not it's offensive I honestly care less about. I can't change it, and while I rarely use drow, they occasionally make good villains. I do feel that it makes sense for things living underground to be very dark-colored in such a world, though.

[Phelix-Mu]

My headcanon:

Darkvision sees in black and white, not in another spectrum or anything. Cavern walls and other things are going to show up as very dark colors. There's an evolutionary advantage to black and dark grey skin in a world where anything that can see in the dark sees only in black and white. Only devils get colors in the dark, and they don't live on the material plane, so they wouldn't prompt a change (and even then, if the tunnel walls are dark gray, it's easier to blend in in that case).

Whether or not it's offensive I honestly care less about. I can't change it, and while I rarely use drow, they occasionally make good villains. I do feel that it makes sense for things living underground to be very dark-colored in such a world, though.

In earlier editions, IIRC, infravision was more like heatsight than it was like the current darkvision, so I'm not sure this logic washes with the earlier editions. Otherwise, makes good sense to me.

Also, I think the skin-color change was the punishment that marked followers of future Lolth at the end of the Sundering. Could be wrong, but I think it was a mark to show that they had followed a goddess that had betrayed the rest of the pantheon.

[Forrestfire]

Yeah, it doesn't work for older editions, sadly. 3.5 drow being dark-skinned makes a decent amount of sense, though! (even if it was a divine punishment. Good job, gods, you helped them blend in better)

[Vhaidara]

You know, these discussions always remind me of a conversation I had with two of my cousins about Lord of the Rings. Let's call them Cousin A and Cousin B.

Cousin B was convinced that LotR was a horrible pile of racist crap because the bad guys were all black and the good guys were all white. Cousin A and I were making the argument to him that it had nothing to do with race, rather it was Black = Darkness = The Unknown = Fear, while White = Light = The Known = Comfort.

Cousin A's dad walks in to tell us it's time for dinner. We all respect his opinion, so we ask him for his opinion. His response
"It's totally racist."
Cousin A and I stare at him for a full fifteen seconds.
"It totally gives orcs a bad name."

[Phelix-Mu]

Yeah, it doesn't work for older editions, sadly. 3.5 drow being dark-skinned makes a decent amount of sense, though! (even if it was a divine punishment. Good job, gods, you helped them blend in better)

Yeah, I think Lolth took a bunch of lemons that Corellon handed her and made some pretty good lemonade, all things considered. Does drow culture make sense? Not really. Could it sustain itself in its classic form without her patronage/oppression? Probably not. But if she was looking to design deadly hunters cowled in utter darkness, from which to select champions with which to smite her former paramour? She did a pretty good job in that case.

One of my favorite D&D character setups involved the classic elven ranger of mine back in 2e. He was a messenger that brought news and such from village to village, and one fair night spotted a drow surface strike force as they approached their quarry, a small village that he knew well. Bravely, he ran ahead and warned the elves, and then assumed the role of rear guard to their hasty flight.

Alone and badly outnumbered, all he had was familiarity with terrain, superior position among the trees, and excellent camouflage. He sniped over a dozen of them before their crossbow poison finally brought him down, and he was carried to the Underdark for ritual torture and sacrifice. Hehe. He managed to escape with the help of several other characters, but it was that initial scene among the trees that really stuck with me.

I like the way drow work, and I think the skin color thing is neither here nor there. Personally, the red eyes from earlier editions, which burned crimson in the sight of infravision, always creeped me out more than the skin color.

[JusticeZero]

Strictly speaking, the dynamic of "races that get sunlight turn dark" is not actually an intuitive leap. In ways, without understanding the medical reasons, it is totally backwards - people who live in hot places turn colors that get hotter faster in the sun? In a fantasy universe, it isn't odd to imagine that the actual dynamic is that things get bleached by the sun, explaining why everything underground is "dark".

[iTreeby]

In the real world, there is no plane of shadow. The cosmetic differences between surface dwellers and underdark denizens would make sense to you if you had enough ranks of knowledge: the planes.

[Zanos]

If people don't realize that there's an awful lot of black = evil in this world, ask a black person sometime if they are tired of that meme.
Seriously? Human fear of night is an extremely primal and instinctual fear.

If you honestly think that dark colors representing "bad" people is a troubling cliche, you need your head examined.

[Agrippa]

Just blame the classic drow coloring on Gygax's self admitted arachnophobia. For the in setting rationale, think of it this way, Lolth is the demon queen of spiders, so she redesigned her elven worshipers to be reminiscent of her favorite breed of spider.

http://ag.arizona.edu/maricopa/garden/graphic/bugs/widow2.jpg

[OracleofWuffing]

Oh, I see what's happening, Drow can be interpreted as symbols of unintentional racism in D&D, but Duergars can't. They're just not as good as Drow, the Drow are just superior, is that it? :smalltongue:

No seriously I'm completely joking with that. I just kind of wanted to point out that there's another evil psuedo-race that's cave-oriented and happens to have skin tones darker than the race from which they spun off. It doesn't particularly help the case, but at least drow aren't the only not-pale humanoids in the caves.

[JusticeZero]

*shrugs* I just fluff any deep dark subrace with black skin and call it a day, and let people sort out which ones are good and which are evil.

[SiuiS]

They're the super-evilest of the evil humanoids. They're an underground race. Why isn't their skin really pale? So racist.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vlhtL0AEMs

Dark elves are pale because during the alignment wars when they betrayed their peolpe and their factions by siding with a demoness over their own kin, they were stricken with an inheritable curse tha marred them forever, turning their skin as black as their foul hearts.

Further, elves don't breed genetically, they breed magically. There is no elf gene. If you have 100% elf blood, you're an elf. You pick one if your parents were different variety of elf, too; its all one or the other. If you have 50%-99% elf blood, you're a half elf. You still pick one, so it's either 100% half-high elf, or 100% half wild elf, or whatever, and it's not communicable. If you had a grandparents who were different kinds of elves, only the elf-type that actively impregnated your human parent gets passed down. No throwbacks or recessive elf-ness. If you are <49% elf, you are human (or whatever other species can magically be infected with Elfness). Being an elf is amystical condition, not a genetic one,. IT is a matter of elven faeire magic, not genetics.

Up until late 3.5, that is, when they started to change this. But for 30 years, that was the truth of it, and that is why you get weird things when people look at the end results, never learn the history behind those end results, and start making things up. :smalltongue:

[DeadMech]

The drow having their skin turned dark as a curse from the gods is almost word for word what is said in actual religious texts about actual people. At least the elder scrolls goes to show that the cursed race is really no more evil than anyone else, and that one groups gods is another groups devils.

If you don't think it matters... well... I guess the kindest thing I can say is that you're lucky. Lucky to not be affected by such things. Lucky to be more rational than most human beings.

If you spend your life growing up in an environment where the only time you see a person of some variety is when they are being portrayed as stupid, evil, or subhuman and don't associate everyone of that variety to that image. Well... congratulations, you're a saint.

Because most human beings are not so rational. We make generalizations about people on first sight. It's a survival mechanism carried over by our primitive monkey brains. If something or someone reminds us of negative reinforcement, we act negatively towards them.

That's just what you see when you look at other people. These types of messages can affect how you see yourself as well.

But... at this point I don't even want to go on with this post. Getting dragged into these kinds of debates is exhausting. I can already hear someone getting ready to call me out as a white knight with white guilt. I don't even in particular dislike the drow. I don't dislike D&D. If something has a problematic element it doesn't mean that' it's bad entirely. It can either be used to make a point or it can be improved in the future.

[SiuiS]

The drow having their skin turned dark as a curse from the gods is almost word for word what is said in actual religious texts about actual people. At least the elder scrolls goes to show that the cursed race is really no more evil than anyone else, and that one groups gods is another groups devils.

I understand that. I also know that actual real world stuff has light skinned people as half-baked and useless, and examples of evils turning white and putrid. It's not universal that dark=bad and I do not feel there are sufficient examples in enough cultures to say it's always a racism thing. If representation on this specific thing is important at your table, fix it. But the idea that it must be racism because that's not how evolution works is a stupid idea – not because black=racism but because you're forcing evolution where it doesn't belong.

Shadow creatures made out of or mates to shadows, breeding with darkness demons and being dark isn't a stretch. I'm surprised no one has pointed out that goblins are primarily yellow and red, myself.

[Anlashok]

If you spend your life growing up in an environment where the only time you see a person of some variety is when they are being portrayed as stupid, evil, or subhuman and don't associate everyone of that variety to that image. Well... congratulations, you're a saint.
My apologies to all the real life drow who might be offended?

My problem with this argument is that the logic of it doesn't seem to follow. The drow don't act, look nor are presented in even the slightest way as a denigrating racial stereotype. The similarities exist at such a bare level that to call it offensive feels rather bizarre and more like grasping at straws (so limited that you'd be better off arguing they're a racist stereotype of Englishmen... given that they tend to be drawn with more anglican physical features and are domineering imperialists ruled by a Queen. All they're missing is a navy and colonies).

[DeadMech]

To Siuis
As possibly the whitest person you will ever see, I understand somewhat where you are coming from. I think. Pale people are associated with sickness. Not a week goes by where someone doesn't make a generalization about me being inactive or ill. I'm not redheaded though so no one says I don't have a soul.

To Anlashok
Being dark skinned may not be the only feature of the drow. They are also ruled by women. I'm sure there's been no shortage of controversy over that as well. Of course they aren't a complete reflection of any particular racial or cultural group. They are only one of many examples in western culture of a trend.

I have no intention of saying drow are black and evil and it was intentional and that their creators are bad people. Racism isn't always intentional. It's often subconscious. Creative people aren't always aware of what influences their works. For example Rich set out to write a comic trying to have a diverse cast. He wasn't even aware of his own biases until people pointed it out to him. He was genuinely surprised how under represented numerous groups of people were. It's not something I blame him for. Especially not after, when he had the problem pointed out, he resolved to fix it.

[SiuiS]

My apologies to all the real life drow who might be offended?

My problem with this argument is that the logic of it doesn't seem to follow. The drow don't act, look nor are presented in even the slightest way as a denigrating racial stereotype. The similarities exist at such a bare level that to call it offensive feels rather bizarre and more like grasping at straws (so limited that you'd be better off arguing they're a racist stereotype of Englishmen... given that they tend to be drawn with more anglican physical features and are domineering imperialists ruled by a Queen. All they're missing is a navy and colonies).

And being the only elves with facial hair, they had moustaches. Bully!


To Siuis
As possibly the whitest person you will ever see, I understand somewhat where you are coming from. I think. Pale people are associated with sickness. Not a week goes by where someone doesn't make a generalization about me being inactive or ill. I'm not redheaded though so no one says I don't have a soul.

To Anlashok
Being dark skinned may not be the only feature of the drow. They are also ruled by women. I'm sure there's been no shortage of controversy over that as well. Of course they aren't a complete reflection of any particular racial or cultural group. They are only one of many examples in western culture of a trend.

I have no intention of saying drow are black and evil and it was intentional and that their creators are bad people. Racism isn't always intentional. It's often subconscious. Creative people aren't always aware of what influences their works. For example Rich set out to write a comic trying to have a diverse cast. He wasn't even aware of his own biases until people pointed it out to him. He was genuinely surprised how under represented numerous groups of people were. It's not something I blame him for. Especially not after, when he had the problem pointed out, he resolved to fix it.

Being able to point to a thing and say it resembles another thing does not imply corellation nor causation, though.

Drow are;
Dark because they are natural ninjas
sexy, always
shallow and angry
ruled by spiders symbolically
constantly at war over gender politics

None of this whatsover has anything to do with racism unless someone is looking for an excuse to cry racism. They are dark because shadows and silence, and always have been. It could indeed be seen as unfortunate, but then we should also be upset that the wild elves have red hair and are wild and unruly, because unlike the drown, the grugach are indeed, directly 100% a derivative of hibernian folk, and they're being called dull, angry and wild.

[Lord Raziere]

I'm not redheaded though so no one says I don't have a soul.


Wat.

Where did people possibly get the idea that red-heads don't have souls? I ask this because I'm red-headed myself. The fiery angry stereotype I can understand, with the association with flame, but this I don't even get.

[DeadMech]

Wat.

Where did people possibly get the idea that red-heads don't have souls? I ask this because I'm red-headed myself. The fiery angry stereotype I can understand, with the association with flame, but this I don't even get.

I'm not even sure myself. Let's just say humanity has in the past found no excuse too small to ostracize and discriminate against one another, and leave it at that.

[Bullet06320]

Ironicly the only people in real life ive seen ask if you think drow are racist are white people, I know several black gamers and they have commented on this in the past, the black gamers I know, didn't see any correlation till it was pointed out to them.

[A.A.King]

Yeah, this simply isn't a problem. The only comparison you can make is the fact that they are described as black. However this black is real black, black-black, proper #000000 black. And if it's not black black then it is blue-black. It's not a real life skin colour and if instead of words we only had the pictures then nobody would have said a thing

[Brookshw]

Pathfinder Drow are closer to dark purple and this is probably the reason why. They did something similar to Jinx and Mr. Popo in Pokemon and DBZ, respectively.
As I recall the TeamFourStar Mr. Popo had something to say about that.

[Waddacku]

I'm not even sure myself. Let's just say humanity has in the past found no excuse too small to ostracize and discriminate against one another, and leave it at that.

It's just a joke from South Park.

[Lord Raziere]

It's just a joke from South Park.

Oh good. One more reason to avoid that.... show. :smallannoyed:

[A.A.King]

Oh good. One more reason to avoid that.... show. :smallannoyed:

What? Southpark is a great show with good social commentary. Definitely not something you should avoid

[HighWater]

As has been mentioned before, this is a case of unfortunate implications (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/UnfortunateImplications), where audience perception matters much more than artist intention. I'd like to state up front that I hold no beliefs that people of different colours have different inherent talents or vices than others. Chinese, Sub-saharan African, European, Arabian, Native American, Indian, Indonesian, etc. etc. it doesn't matter, we're all humans.

Anyhow, Drow are Evil, they have dark skin, ergo it's racism and humans with dark skin are Evil? That's a big jump in a game filled with characters of all sizes and colorations.

Let's explore some "good" (actually very bad) old-fashioned racism:

- Do Drow have big, red, puffy lips resembling a stereotypical racial depiction? (No, they do not.)
- Do Drow have a broad nose and other cranial features that remind less of "Caucasian" features and more of (stereotypical) "African" features? (No, their facial structure looks, if anything, pretty "Caucasian".)
- Are Drow broader, more muscular or in any other way more like "Primitive Elves"? (No, they are described as smaller and thinner than the already lithe elves.)

Do Drow have other traits that remind us strongly of stereotypical (and let me repeat, bad) portrayal of "blacks"?:
- Are they Lazy? (No, they are actually pretty determined and full of action, evil action, but still. Very ambitious lot too.)
- Overly religious? (Not more than their "good" brethren.)
- Superstitious? (Seem pretty level-headed, actually.)
- Buffoonish? (No, their backstabbing is not for slapstick.)

Actually, Drow don't seem to qualify for any of the "black stereotypical attributes", neither physical nor mental. They are just utterly darkskinned (either pure black or blackblue) and utterly evil.


Want to know why? Here's a few reasons:
- They are very hard to spot in the darkness that is their natural habitat. This makes them scary, which is what you want in a game based around adventuring.
- The scariness is compounded when all you can see is their fiery red eyes just before you get knifed in the dark.
- It allows for easy identification. Adventurers that stumble upon a party of Drow know it's killing time. No need for that boring find-out-their-intentions-first crap. This is what a lot of people look for in D&D and what you'll find in many humanoids (compare Orcs, Dwarves, Troglodytes and Elves, they all have very clear "(don't) shoot me!"-signs on the tin).
- They are an obvious inversion of the old fashioned good-hearted, holier-than-thou "fair" elves. Ironically, those elves can get pretty darkskinned these days too, though nothing like the absolute dark that is the Drow.
- It doesn't look silly. Surprisingly important if you don't want the players laughing at the sight of their opposition.
- Fantasy creatures tend to be coloured after their environment (a pretty powerful trope, see below). Drow live in a place that's literally called the Underdark. Trope dictates they should be pitch-black, which is what they are.

The alternatives:
- What about red? That'd suggest they are demons or devils, or live in a place of fire. Besides, you've have the same problems again, but this time with native americans.
- Blue? Are ya mad? Blue is for those living in the Water or the Air! Also, a good chance it looks silly in any non-blue environment.
- Green? Seriously... It's the Underdark... Looks weird and out of place outside woodlands.
- A variety of real world shades. Sure, would've been great! I'm all for a more nuanced game that features less "killing-cause-it-moved", and more "what's really going on?" Except now you can't shoot on sight and adventurers need shoot on sight targets, or they'll never set up an ambush or have a surprise round.


tl;dr:
The skin-colour of Drow has very little to do with real-world racism. If we were instead discussing a human "race" of strictly darkskinned humans who are inherently evil etc., the call for racism would be much stronger. This is because we know that humans come in a wide variety of skin colours. The Drow only have one skin-colour. It happens to be pure black (or black-blue sometimes black-purple, both colours have often been used to represent "absolute black" in depections for artistic reasons). This is due to the Fantasy environment-trope (compare the various kind of Giants, such as Fire Giant and Frost Giant and their coloration), inversion of their mortal enemies, and recognisability.

You are, of course, still free to leave out Drow altogether (plenty of other suitable choices), or subvert the trope by changing their alignment. Personally, I love me some non-evil Orcs.

[Segev]

Let's imagine that drow were, instead, portrayed as turning pale because albinism is "natural" in the underdark, where there's no sun to tan or burn you. Let's keep everything else the same.

Now, we get this thread, but instead of "veiled racism," we're told the drow are a subconscious perpetration of the stereotype that albinos are evil.


Let's try making their female rulers wear stentorian robes with utter modesty, and treat the men as man-sluts. Now, we're treated to discussions of how powerful women are evil for not dressing like tramps, or we're treated further to how even when they're supposedly in charge, male writers make them enslaved to patriarchal ideas of how women must be ashamed of their sexuality.


Let's try making them a male-dominated society, with utterly sexist treatment of their women. Despite not being portrayed as a good thing, we're now once again treated to discussions of how it is a male power fantasy of abusing women, and how the only "good" drow are the girls who are "rescued" by "powerful men" as fantasy objects and standard hero rewards.



Well, what if we make them egalitarian? How sexist! A society that has women equal with men MUST be evil, it says! Clearly, this is unacceptable and is closet sexism. Maybe racism, too, since if they're black-skinned it means we're taking the noble tribal egalitarianism of Africa (whether accurate or not) and making it evil! If they're albinos, we could be going one worse into "they all look alike" territory.





In short, it doesn't matter what you write or how; if somebody wants to declare it "subconscious *ism," they will find a way. The professionally offended and wielders of weaponized victimhood are adept at this.

[Coidzor]

They're the super-evilest of the evil humanoids. They're an underground race. Why isn't their skin really pale? So racist.


Can't have the evil, subterranean elves be super pale, regular old elves are already BLINDINGLY WHITE RACIST UBERMENSCHEN. That are also vaguely homoerotic or at least bisexual. Elves are, like, mad complicated, brosephs.

*watches video*

Well, that was amusing.

[Winthur]

yo id like to give a big SHOUT-OUT to ma homies from MENZOBERRANZAN, UNDERDARK........ baenre4lyfe!!

awww big mama, whippin' yo son ain't cool, chill
ow! ow! relax, bitch! i ain't wanna be a spider!

sup ryderre, time to show do'urden what bangin' is.

[Zombulian]

I just thought of an interesting idea for an alternate Drow skin color. Someone mentioned that having dark skin in an already dark place would help with camouflage, and it reminded me about something I learned in my marine science class. Down in the deepest parts of the abyssal zone, there are some freaky animals. One of the craziest things about those animals is that they often range from a deep blood red, to a bright crimson, because in that deepest place where red wavelength light can't reach, many of the animals that rely at least partially on sight can't detect red, because they'd usually never need to.

I just thought I'd share because I think a race of blood-red skinned Drow would be pretty dope.

[Coidzor]

There's always the question of privilege in things like this, that a bunch of white Midwesterners started D&D and probably didn't even consider RL race one way or another when describing Drow. I don't think they set out to offend RL black people, it just didn't occur to them that it might offend. It probably never occurred to Gygax and Arnesson to think about Drow from an African-American perspective.

Lots of that going around.

But there's reasons to make Drow black other than "Hey, they are opposite-day Elves!". They live (but can still see!) in pitch darkness and rely on stealth and ambush. It's not what we see in nature, but for a fantasy world, "blends into the darkness" works rather than "loses all eyesight and learns to rely on other senses" that we see in our cave crickets.

Anyway, I dislike the idea of more-or-less "normal" creatures having forced alignments. The more a creature is inherently magical, though, the more the question of what sort of magic imbues it arises; e.g., the magic that enables a black dragon to fly *might* be of a different sort than that which enables flight of copper dragons. And then most undead can only be powered by pure negative energy, which makes their alignment at least 99% predictable.

Oh, yeah... I hadn't even really stopped to think about it before, but there were definitely parts of the Midwest that during that time would only have an awareness of non-Whites from television, film, and printed media...

And were fairly magical even before they went underground, so it makes sense that they would avoid blindness like Grimlocks, who are a much better example of that sort of goes blind, goes pale cave adaptation in D&Dland. Though IIRC, Grimlocks have sorta flip-flopped as far as what color they're supposed to be...

Eh, that largely depends upon how you rule negative energy to work,otherwise it depends entirely upon their nature by which particular undead monstrosity it is. But that's a big sack of cats for another argument-filled thread on its own. XD


Why would they need to? We're discussing a fantastical race that shares nothing in terms of appearance or mannerisms of a caricature or stereotype.

Well, it was already mentioned, but there's both the aforementioned white privilege of white people who could go days, weeks, or even years without seeing a non-white person, especially if they spent any effort on doing so and the unfortunate implications of having black-skinned evil degenerates in opposition to THE GLORIOUS WHITE MASTER RACE.

If you can't see how that could be considered problematical, well... That's kind of a problem itself.


My headcanon:

Darkvision sees in black and white, not in another spectrum or anything. Cavern walls and other things are going to show up as very dark colors. There's an evolutionary advantage to black and dark grey skin in a world where anything that can see in the dark sees only in black and white. Only devils get colors in the dark, and they don't live on the material plane, so they wouldn't prompt a change (and even then, if the tunnel walls are dark gray, it's easier to blend in in that case).

Whether or not it's offensive I honestly care less about. I can't change it, and while I rarely use drow, they occasionally make good villains. I do feel that it makes sense for things living underground to be very dark-colored in such a world, though.

Blue and Purple Drow would suggest otherwise, at least to some small extent. That is an interesting headcanon, though. And I had forgotten about Devils getting full-spectrum. I wonder why only Devils, though.


Yeah, it doesn't work for older editions, sadly. 3.5 drow being dark-skinned makes a decent amount of sense, though! (even if it was a divine punishment. Good job, gods, you helped them blend in better)

Corellon Larethian has never exactly had good judgment, after all. The Sundering and what they did to make pre-Lolth into Lolth are pretty much a lovestory to their poor decision making ability.


Yeah, I think Lolth took a bunch of lemons that Corellon handed her and made some pretty good lemonade, all things considered.

Uh... Not really... It pretty much runs n micromanagement.


Does drow culture make sense? Not really.

Understatement of the year.


Could it sustain itself in its classic form without her patronage/oppression? Probably not.

Definitely not, rather. Giving them, and Lolth, a bit too much credit on that one. XD


But if she was looking to design deadly hunters cowled in utter darkness, from which to select champions with which to smite her former paramour? She did a pretty good job in that case.

That's about the only thing accomplished there as I understand it, yeah. XD


I like the way drow work, and I think the skin color thing is neither here nor there. Personally, the red eyes from earlier editions, which burned crimson in the sight of infravision, always creeped me out more than the skin color.

...The skin color isn't supposed to creep you out... :smallconfused:

If you think the skin color is supposed to creep people out, that's even more racist than putting unfortunate implications by having always-black bad guys opposed by nigh-universally-lily-white good guys.


Oh, I see what's happening, Drow can be interpreted as symbols of unintentional racism in D&D, but Duergars can't. They're just not as good as Drow, the Drow are just superior, is that it? :smalltongue:

No seriously I'm completely joking with that. I just kind of wanted to point out that there's another evil psuedo-race that's cave-oriented and happens to have skin tones darker than the race from which they spun off. It doesn't particularly help the case, but at least drow aren't the only not-pale humanoids in the caves.

Of course they're not as good as Drow. They're shorter than Drow are. :smalltongue: Also Elf vs. Dwarf specieism.


Further, elves don't breed genetically, they breed magically. There is no elf gene. If you have 100% elf blood, you're an elf. You pick one if your parents were different variety of elf, too; its all one or the other. If you have 50%-99% elf blood, you're a half elf. You still pick one, so it's either 100% half-high elf, or 100% half wild elf, or whatever, and it's not communicable. If you had a grandparents who were different kinds of elves, only the elf-type that actively impregnated your human parent gets passed down. No throwbacks or recessive elf-ness. If you are <49% elf, you are human (or whatever other species can magically be infected with Elfness). Being an elf is amystical condition, not a genetic one,. IT is a matter of elven faeire magic, not genetics.

The sad thing is that I can't tell if you're ****ting us, embellishing, or if they actually sat down and wrote that out themselves.


Shadow creatures made out of or mates to shadows, breeding with darkness demons and being dark isn't a stretch. I'm surprised no one has pointed out that goblins are primarily yellow and red, myself.

While red has been mentioned as a possible skin tone, I've not seen a source that says that it is one of the dominant skin tones of goblins or even goblinoids. So where'd you come by that tidbit? My recollection is that they were mostly greyish-green-to-yellowish-ochre.


And being the only elves with facial hair, they had moustaches. Bully!

Which is probably the creepiest thing about Drow, I suppose.


None of this whatsover has anything to do with racism unless someone is looking for an excuse to cry racism. They are dark because shadows and silence, and always have been.

Angrily insisting that it can't possibly have any unfortunate implications or be indicative of any problematical social trends does not make it so. Especially when you're joining a chorus of white men who are angry at the very idea of their pastime being considered to have any even potentially problematic elements or roots. :smalltongue:

Also, wild elves don't exclusively have red hair anywhere I've read about them. :smallconfused: So, uh, again, can you cite your source on that?


Where did people possibly get the idea that red-heads don't have souls? I ask this because I'm red-headed myself. The fiery angry stereotype I can understand, with the association with flame, but this I don't even get.

I honestly have no idea where South Park was drawing from with gingers. I recall there being rumors about them being considered to be much more likely to be witches during the middle ages, I suppose.


Oh good. One more reason to avoid that.... show. :smallannoyed:

It... It really isn't. Of all the possible reasons there might be to avoid South Park, it's not even in the top 100. It's certainly not going to contribute to going all hissy and He Who Must Not Be Named about the show's name. :smalltongue:


I just thought of an interesting idea for an alternate Drow skin color. Someone mentioned that having dark skin in an already dark place would help with camouflage, and it reminded me about something I learned in my marine science class. Down in the deepest parts of the abyssal zone, there are some freaky animals. One of the craziest things about those animals is that they often range from a deep blood red, to a bright crimson, because in that deepest place where red wavelength light can't reach, many of the animals that rely at least partially on sight can't detect red, because they'd usually never need to.

I just thought I'd share because I think a race of blood-red skinned Drow would be pretty dope.

Heh. Well, that's pretty neat.


yo id like to give a big SHOUT-OUT to ma homies from MENZOBERRANZAN, UNDERDARK........ baenre4lyfe!!

awww big mama, whippin' yo son ain't cool, chill
ow! ow! relax, bitch! i ain't wanna be a spider!

sup ryderre, time to show do'urden what bangin' is.

As painful as that was, that reminds me of something a friend once did in adapting Drow to their homebrew setting by blending their fluff with elements of both the Antebellum and modern American South. "The Drow Will Rise Again!"

[georgie_leech]

I honestly have no idea where South Park was drawing from with gingers. I recall there being rumors about them being considered to be much more likely to be witches during the middle ages, I suppose.




Wait, that's a thing people actually believe? I always thought they were just lampooning racist tendencies by coming up with a ludicrous example.

[Tvtyrant]

Wait, that's a thing people actually believe? I always thought they were just lampooning racist tendencies by coming up with a ludicrous example.

Before that episode aired I had never been told I had no soul and that must have been an unwanted child because of my red hair. Now it happens almost daily. Thanks South Park!

[BioCharge]

Before that episode aired I had never been told I had no soul and that must have been an unwanted child because of my red hair. Now it happens almost daily. Thanks South Park!

Hell, I even got jumped at school because of "Kick a Ginger Day"!

I play on the trope of being soulless, though. Mostly around friends and stuff because we all know we aren't being serious. We have guys who act out and reinforce stereotypes as jokes and what-not, simply because we know it isn't true and it adds a bit of silliness to our relatively serious days.

Edit: On-topic: I do see how it could be misconstrued as racist, but you have to be specifically looking for it, because as others have said, other ways can be interpreted such as the unknown darkness thing.

[Lord Raziere]

What? Southpark is a great show with good social commentary. Definitely not something you should avoid

You mean the show about offensive vulgar drivel? No thanks. Pass. If they really wanted to comment on social things, they could've done it without acquiring a reputation for being vulgar, offensive and disgusting.

[Anlashok]

Well, it was already mentioned, but there's both the aforementioned white privilege of white people who could go days, weeks, or even years without seeing a non-white person, especially if they spent any effort on doing so and the unfortunate implications of having black-skinned evil degenerates in opposition to THE GLORIOUS WHITE MASTER RACE.

If you can't see how that could be considered problematical, well... That's kind of a problem itself.
I'm sorry, but no. I really can't see why a fantastical creation that bares absolutely no resemblance to a real life group is a racial stereotype of that group. You have something that does not look like the people they're supposedly caricaturing, do not act like any stereotype of the people they're supposedly caricaturing, and generally have no similarities whatsoever.

It comes across as really, really grasping at straws because there's literally no connection between the two entities. Really the closest thing to proper racism here is the bizarre insistence that anything with a vaguely dark skin tone must be associated with certain ethnic groups. Bit of a headscratcher too.

The laughable thing is that in terms of physical features and mannerisms the Drow are much more clearly a caricature of European imperialists (you know, being a bunch of superiorly equipped narcissistic self entitled oligarchs insisting on imposing their will on 'lesser races' (which is everything but themselves).


Angrily insisting that it can't possibly have any unfortunate implications or be indicative of any problematical social trends does not make it so.
But angrily insisting that it does is fine?

[Coidzor]

Wait, that's a thing people actually believe? I always thought they were just lampooning racist tendencies by coming up with a ludicrous example.

Judging by memes floating around facebook, yes, there are people that believe that Medieval Europeans believed redheads to be witches. And also people that believe that the Ancient Greeks believed that redheads came back to life as vampires after they died.


But angrily insisting that it does is fine?

No, no, no. See, only one side has been angry. Those pointing that there is, in fact, some potential for unfortunate implications have been more or less chill. :smalltongue:

[atemu1234]

I've argued this before, there's a historical and cultural premise towards "dark = evil" and even though we IN THE REAL WORLD know that it isn't universally true, a culturally prominent game literally built of tropes kind of gets a pass on it.

[atemu1234]

Oh good. One more reason to avoid that.... show. :smallannoyed:

Agreed, personally. I find it offensive even though I am none of the things it makes fun of :smallsmile:.

[georgie_leech]

Edit: On-topic: I do see how it could be misconstrued as racist, but you have to be specifically looking for it, because as others have said, other ways can be interpreted such as the unknown darkness thing.

For instance, in many cultures white is often associated with death and is a mourning colour. As far back as ancient Egypt, White was the colour of the dead deserts, in contrast to the almost black, life-giving mud of the Nile river.

[Anlashok]

No, no, no. See, only one side has been angry. Those pointing that there is, in fact, some potential for unfortunate implications have been more or less chill. :smalltongue:

Oh ok. So all that stuff about railing against the "Great white master race" and calling people who disagree with you angry white people is being "chill". Ok. Don't see what's chill about relying on insults rather than substance, but ok.

[A.A.King]

Angrily insisting that it can't possibly have any unfortunate implications or be indicative of any problematical social trends does not make it so. Especially when you're joining a chorus of white men who are angry at the very idea of their pastime being considered to have any even potentially problematic elements or roots. :smalltongue:
1) Assuming that everyone who says it's not racist is white is extremely racist, just saying
2) These kinds of debates are always more ore less a sing-of between two equally angry choruses


No, no, no. See, only one side has been angry. Those pointing that there is, in fact, some potential for unfortunate implications have been more or less chill. :smalltongue:
That's not true and you know it


You mean the show about offensive vulgar drivel? No thanks. Pass. If they really wanted to comment on social things, they could've done it without acquiring a reputation for being vulgar, offensive and disgusting.
Sure, because if you want to comment on society you have to do it in the correct way. Here is the list of things you are allowed to say and if you have decided what you want to say please hand in your request in triplet.

Yes, they could have been less vulgar and they could have made points which people don't find offensive. I mean a lot of people found it very offensive when South Park said it is wrong for the Boy Scouts of America to exclude people who are gay. Obviously this is something they should have never said because it is offensive.

[atemu1234]

This is why I'd rather debate good drow existing as opposed to whether or not they're racist. There's evidence for either, but what difference does it make? Drow are evil. They've got black skin. They are in no way brown-skinned, and therein the assumption that it's racist is based on poor definitions of skin coloration.

The high elves are white. Acceptable premise. They are not universally good. Therein, claiming that drow v. elves is evil v. good is a poor idea. More likely is it's evil v. neutral, and even then, it's not racist.

Also, neither side of this argument is "chill".

[Coidzor]

Oh ok. So all that stuff about railing against the "Great white master race" and calling people who disagree with you angry white people is being "chill". Ok. Don't see what's chill about relying on insults rather than substance, but ok.

That was a reference to the GLORIOUS PC GAMING MASTER RACE, actually, sorry.

Eh, I didn't really start calling anyone angry white people until after they already started acting angry. :smalltongue: Considering that there was discussion beforehand, I wouldn't call it relying on it. Was mostly an observation really.

And since I took a bit longer with the rest of that post... here ya go. Sorry for the delay.


I'm sorry, but no. I really can't see why a fantastical creation that bares absolutely no resemblance to a real life group is a racial stereotype of that group. You have something that does not look like the people they're supposedly caricaturing, do not act like any stereotype of the people they're supposedly caricaturing, and generally have no similarities whatsoever.

You don't need to claim that it's a racial stereotype of Blacks, specifically, to see the potential for unfortunate implications in the very premise of taking already idealized white people-that-are-better-than-people and making degenerate black versions of them.

Or that touting whiteness as close to godliness and blackness as being a bad quality in human-shaped things hasn't been interpreted as something that could be applied to how we treat people in meatspace. Hell, IIRC, Malcolm X, of all people, was influenced by and reacted to the trope? motif? ages ago.

Sadly, for all the white people proclaiming that racism is over, it hasn't quite been killed off just yet, and there's still the more subtle elements that persist here and there. Partially because the reaction to them being pointed out is much like the reaction exhibited here, or even worse, regardless of how much of an issue is made or the difficulty in moving towards the less problematical.

Granted, one generally won't run into something that's both overt racism and unfortunate implications, because generally once that's going down, nothing's going to be left in the realm of implications and will be made abundantly clear.


It comes across as really, really grasping at straws because there's literally no connection between the two entities. Really the closest thing to proper racism here is the bizarre insistence that anything with a vaguely dark skin tone must be associated with certain ethnic groups. Bit of a headscratcher too.

For overt racism, maybe. I'm inclined to agree that the Drow are not an example of overt racism, given the context of their genesis. There's a bit of a range, and in some cases a gulf, between overt racism and more subtle elements, though.

Strangely though, skin tone alone is often enough for some people to be reminded of their prejudices against people with dark skin tones or the prejudices of other people against people with dark skin tones. That said, "proper" racism, as I recall, is either about dehumanizing and disenfranchising a vulnerable group/ethnicity or it's about the established societal system that dehumanizes and disenfranchises vulnerable populations and how those living within the system reinforce it in big ways through overt, sometimes horrific, actions, typically on behalf of either society or the racist system, as well as numerous small little ways regardless of whether they're being privileged by said system or not, but that latter variant is more the academic take on racism.

Now, colloquial racism, on the other hand, sure, there's takes on that which would say acknowledging any difference on racial lines would be racist, but it's a little bit of a stretch to apply that particular riff here, and there's potentially problematic or just overtly problematic aspects of such takes on it anyway.


The laughable thing is that in terms of physical features and mannerisms the Drow are much more clearly a caricature of European imperialists (you know, being a bunch of superiorly equipped narcissistic self entitled oligarchs insisting on imposing their will on 'lesser races' (which is everything but themselves).

Really? They seemed more inspired by American sensibilities physically than anything else, and quite unlike any of the American caricatures of European imperialists I've come across, given that the Drow seem to be allergic to being overweight or piggly. I suppose maybe in the hawkishness of certain depictions of Drow there's some parallels?

I suppose the ones that just look like someone took an elf and tarred them would look a bit European, due to the occasional Elf that's a callback to the more clear delineations between Europeans with only one nationality in their immediate family tree rather than just being an idealized White American with the rare barest touch of Native American and/or Asian influences.


For instance, in many cultures white is often associated with death and is a mourning colour. As far back as ancient Egypt, White was the colour of the dead deserts, in contrast to the almost black, life-giving mud of the Nile river.

True, but you're going to have to get a bit closer to Europe than Aegyptus to undermine the whole European > White American angle on the cultural axis.


I've argued this before, there's a historical and cultural premise towards "dark = evil" and even though we IN THE REAL WORLD know that it isn't universally true, a culturally prominent game literally built of tropes kind of gets a pass on it.

And it's been applied to people, at least in American history. *shrug*


1) Assuming that everyone who says it's not racist is white is extremely racist, just saying

2) These kinds of debates are always more ore less a sing-of between two equally angry choruses

Eh, mostly just getting it out of the way early.

Eventually, sure. It just happened sooner on one side than the other this time.


That's not true and you know it

Up to that point in the thread? I hadn't detected any anger aside from possibly in the OP on the one side, but they were posting a comedy video, so I took that with a grain of salt. And, y'know, OPs that don't continue to really participate... :smallwink: On the other hand, the tones of those arguing that people should just shut up and stop thinking about it were starting to get a bit heated.

[Gracht Grabmaw]

Okay, a couple of things:

One: They're not "black" as in they have a high count of a certain kind of melanin in their skin, they are LITERALLY black.

Two: They shouldn't "logically" be pale because they live underground. They're not black because of any biological reason, they're black because of magic. Because guess what, pure coal black is not a natural biological skintone.

Three: All elves are evil, drow are just less subtle about it than the others. If this is not the case in your game you are playing it wrong.

[Coidzor]

Three: All elves are evil, drow are just less subtle about it than the others. If this is not the case in your game you are playing it wrong.

Heh. Fair enough. :smallamused:

[A.A.King]

Three: All elves are evil, drow are just less subtle about it than the others. If this is not the case in your game you are playing it wrong.
This is something I can get behind

[Anlashok]

You don't need to claim that it's a racial stereotype of Blacks, specifically, to see the potential for unfortunate implications in the very premise of taking already idealized white people-that-are-better-than-people and making degenerate black versions of them.

The problem I have with this argument is that regular elves are pretty awful people too.


I suppose maybe in the hawkishness of certain depictions of Drow there's some parallels?
Mostly I was referring to their sensibilities and culture (even the matriarchal nature can be construed just as a caricature of having a queen). My larger point regarding physical characteristics is that in terms of physical build, facial structure, hair, etc. etc. they seem to be drawn in a very Anglican fashion.

[Lord Raziere]

Three: All elves are evil, drow are just less subtle about it than the others. If this is not the case in your game you are playing it wrong.

Y'know technically The Doctor is an elf from a space elf point of view.

so in a way your calling The Doctor evil.

just saying. Which I disagree with, and sure he thought the rest of the Time Lords were jerks, but he still thought Gallifrey was worth saving, and he was clearly mostly focused on the Time Lord aristocracy as the real evil of them, not the common people.

so. just because a lot of people poorly executed the idea of elf, doesn't mean they're evil. me, I instead try to fix things so that they are revised to really be good rather than try to look at them based on what you get to conclude they're evil. its a strange tendency I notice among roleplayers to do the latter thing and I just don't understand it.

[Zombulian]

Keep your doctor who out of my elven lore. Just. Stop.

[Vhaidara]

Keep your doctor who out of my elven lore. Just. Stop.

Seconded. The Doctor is not an elf, he's an Elan.

[Zombulian]

Seconded. The Doctor is not an elf, he's an Elan.

Ah! I almost said "Keep your Doctor Who out of my D&D" but if I had I would've been wrong. That is surprisingly appropriate.

[Lord Raziere]

Seconded. The Doctor is not an elf, he's an Elan.

Doesn't fit unfortunately. Elans are artificially created from humans when Time Lords came long before humans like elves, and a human must petition a certain council to become one, where it seems you can't be transformed from human into Time Lord.

sorry. you just got to accept it. the signs are all there. The Doctor is a Space Elf. naturally psychic, possessing higher moral fibre, kind of odd in the head, long-lived, considered arrogant by humans sometimes, advanced civilization that came long before humanity, their first and foremost example of their race is Chaotic Good....you can't run from it.

Search your feelings, you know it to be true.

[Zombulian]

Doesn't fit unfortunately. Elans are artificially created from humans when Time Lords came long before humans like elves, and a human must petition a certain council to become one, where it seems you can't be transformed from human into Time Lord.

sorry. you just got to accept it. the signs are all there. The Doctor is a Space Elf. naturally psychic, possessing higher moral fibre, kind of odd in the head, long-lived, considered arrogant by humans sometimes, advanced civilization that came long before humanity, their first and foremost example of their race is Chaotic Good....you can't run from it.

Search your feelings, you know it to be true.

Nah. Just an Elan from a planet of Elans that managed to find a way around the psychic reforming of humans to propagate.

[Vhaidara]

Doesn't fit unfortunately. Elans are artificially created from humans when Time Lords came long before humans like elves, and a human must petition a certain council to become one, where it seems you can't be transformed from human into Time Lord.

sorry. you just got to accept it. the signs are all there. The Doctor is a Space Elf. naturally psychic, possessing higher moral fibre, kind of odd in the head, long-lived, considered arrogant by humans sometimes, advanced civilization that came long before humanity, their first and foremost example of their race is Chaotic Good....you can't run from it.

Search your feelings, you know it to be true.

Um...When did elves become naturally psychic? And the difference between the elves arrogance and the Doctor's arrogance is that the Doctor is right.

Also, look at his ears. Do you see pointy there? I don't see pointy there.

Also, slightly different fluff for elans, but mechanically much closer. Longer lived than elves (straight up immortal, IIRC), naturally psionic, and their bodies are more durable.

[Lord Raziere]

Nah. Just an Elan from a planet of Elans that managed to find a way around the psychic reforming of humans to propagate.

which is different from an elf how?

[Zombulian]

Um...When did elves become naturally psychic? And the difference between the elves arrogance and the Doctor's arrogance is that the Doctor is right.

Also, look at his ears. Do you see pointy there? I don't see pointy there.

Also, slightly different fluff for elans, but mechanically much closer. Longer lived than elves (straight up immortal, IIRC), naturally psionic, and their bodies are more durable.

In fact their bodies regenerate. Starting to sound like something?

[Vhaidara]

which is different from an elf how?

1. Elans regenerate
2. Elans look like humans, not elves
3. Elans are natural psychic

[Anlashok]

Ybut he still thought Gallifrey was worth saving

So worth saving the only time he picks up a gun is when he hears they might be coming back.

[Lord Raziere]

1. Elans regenerate
2. Elans look like humans, not elves
3. Elans are natural psychic

1. kay, doesn't excuse all the other similarities to elves
2. ...Elves are basically humans. just with pointy ears and a culture based on longer lives. that is not really convincing me.
3. different from elves being naturally magical how?

basically any humanoid race with longer lives and has connection to some magic or magic-like force is a space elf in sci-fi dude. even the Asari count. Elans are just psychic elves. even share two letters.

Edit: during Tenth Doctor yes, but then again those were the ruling class of Gallifrey, but Eleven, Ten and War Doctors called upon a lot of other Doctors to help them hide Gallifrey itself from being destroyed in the 50th anniversary. so even Ten was willing to save Gallifrey.

[Vhaidara]

1. kay, doesn't excuse all the other similarities to elves
2. ...Elves are basically humans. just with pointy ears and a culture based on longer lives. that is not really convincing me.
3. different from elves being naturally magical how?

basically any humanoid race with longer lives and has connection to some magic or magic-like force is a space elf in sci-fi dude. even the Asari count. Elans are just psychic elves. even share two letters.

It's different from being magically inclined because the Doctor is slightly psychic, not slightly magic. Also, beyond their favored class, show my anything magical about elves.

You know, every time I see you on these forums, you do basically nothing to contribute to any conversation, and frequently just deride the system. Why are you even here?

[Lord Raziere]

It's different from being magically inclined because the Doctor is slightly psychic, not slightly magic. Also, beyond their favored class, show me anything magical about elves.

You know, every time I see you on these forums, you do basically nothing to contribute to any conversation, and frequently just deride the system. Why are you even here?

1. how? psionics is just magic with a different name. elves also trance, are immune to sleeping effects, sixth sense for hidden passages and have low-light vision. seems pretty magical to me.

2. I'm sorry, can you point me to the sign that says "Everyone who comes in here MUST like the system" or am I not allowed to speak my mind? why are you even asking this question? can you not accept criticism?

[Vhaidara]

1. how? psionics is just magic with a different name. elves also trance, are immune to sleeping effects, sixth sense for hidden passages and have low-light vision. seems pretty magical to me.

2. I'm sorry, can you point me to the sign that says "Everyone who comes in here MUST like the system" or am I not allowed to speak my mind? why are you even asking this question? can you not accept criticism?

1. They have different fluff behind them, and that is a bigger factor here than the mechanics. Also, does the doctor have any of those abilities? Among them, trancing isn't magic (biological adaptation), immunity to sleep effects is a racial adaptation (nothing to do with magic), and the sensory abilities are purely biological. Meanwhile, Elans have this ability called Naturally Psionic, which gives them the ability to use psychic powers better than others.

2. I'm just asking why you are here if the only reason you post is to insult things? Why bother, since you clearly don't care about the system?

[Lord Raziere]

1. They have different fluff behind them, and that is a bigger factor here than the mechanics. Also, does the doctor have any of those abilities? Among them, trancing isn't magic (biological adaptation), immunity to sleep effects is a racial adaptation (nothing to do with magic), and the sensory abilities are purely biological. Meanwhile, Elans have this ability called Naturally Psionic, which gives them the ability to use psychic powers better than others.

2. I'm just asking why you are here if the only reason you post is to insult things? Why bother, since you clearly don't care about the system?

1. and the fluff for Elves culture matches Time Lords better than Elans.

2. Why does a critic talk of things they dislike? Why do they bother with films they do not care for?

[Anlashok]

2. Why does a critic talk of things they dislike? Why do they bother with films they do not care for?

Usually because it's their job or in an attempt to disseminate information.

Plus a (good) critic tends to be constructive, while you just seem bitter right now over... something. I'm not quite sure what.

[Segev]

Ah, we now have a suggestion that drow should be red, based on interesting biological and optic science!

Clearly, this has the unfortunate implication that they're representing American Indians, and is therefore racist.



You can find "unfortunate implications" in anything if you want to. It is a favorite tactic of wielders of weaponized victimhood and the professionally offended, because it allows them to always point to something to justify the special privileges they demand as reparations for the supposed injustice they claim to still endure.

Personally, I think they do a disservice to the causes they purport to support on two levels: First, they make it increasingly likely for people to dismiss real problems as just more attention-seeking, self-serving demands for special treatment; second, they perpetuate and foment resentment against the very individuals they purport to seek to empower by striking at people's innate sense for when they're being legitimately treated unfairly. Worse, there's evidence to suggest that the leaders of some of these movements do so deliberately, because they make their living off of their hue and cry over their favored *ism, and if they ever gave a speech suggesting that progress was being made, they'd lose power and influence because they could no longer claim they deserve ever more reparations. Hence the ever more grasping at ever thinner straws to find "unfortunate implications" literally everywhere.

[Gracht Grabmaw]

Y'know technically The Doctor is an elf from a space elf point of view.

so in a way your calling The Doctor evil.

just saying. Which I disagree with, and sure he thought the rest of the Time Lords were jerks, but he still thought Gallifrey was worth saving, and he was clearly mostly focused on the Time Lord aristocracy as the real evil of them, not the common people.

so. just because a lot of people poorly executed the idea of elf, doesn't mean they're evil. me, I instead try to fix things so that they are revised to really be good rather than try to look at them based on what you get to conclude they're evil. its a strange tendency I notice among roleplayers to do the latter thing and I just don't understand it.

Timelords aren't really a good analogue to elves, they're Clarkesean techno-gods. And as gods we can't really project mortal concepts of good and evil onto them because they percieve and interact with the universe and other sapient things differently than we do. But elves aren't really above us in any way, they just like to think that they are, so we still call them unabashadly evil when they do evil things, which is all the time.
Also if Timelords are elves then the Doctor is the drizziest drizzt who ever drizzed.

[Jergmo]

As a nerdy white man, I ask those in this thread, can't we just accept that Drow are hot and that maybe them having ebony skin has something to do with it?

[atemu1234]

As a nerdy white man, I ask those in this thread, can't we just accept that Drow are hot and that maybe them having ebony skin has something to do with it?

...I really don't have an answer to this.

[SimonMoon6]

Doesn't fit unfortunately. Elans are artificially created from humans when Time Lords came long before humans like elves, and a human must petition a certain council to become one, where it seems you can't be transformed from human into Time Lord.

Well, it depends. River Song was born of human parents but became (or was born as) a Time Lord (-ish) gaining (at least) the regeneration powers.

And the Cartmel Master Plan involved Ace becoming a Time Lord, so there were plans for at least one human to become a Time Lord.

And even when in a non-Gallifreyan body, the Master was offered a new cycle of regeneration, suggesting that he could have Time Lord powers in a non-Gallifreyan body (of course, this is complicated by this body being a Trakenite, the physiology of which we don't know much).

And it's also not clear if all Gallifreyans are Time Lords. The Outsiders, for example, seem to be Gallifreyans without Time Lord abilities (though we don't know for sure). It's entirely possible that Time Lords are a class of Gallifreyans who, after passing their exams at the Academy, gain all the Time Lord abilities at graduation.

[Zanos]

As a nerdy white man, I ask those in this thread, can't we just accept that Drow are hot and that maybe them having ebony skin has something to do with it?
Oh, I readily accept that. :smallwink:

[Phelix-Mu]

Well, it depends. River Song was born of human parents but became (or was born as) a Time Lord (-ish) gaining (at least) the regeneration powers.

And the Cartmel Master Plan involved Ace becoming a Time Lord, so there were plans for at least one human to become a Time Lord.

And even when in a non-Gallifreyan body, the Master was offered a new cycle of regeneration, suggesting that he could have Time Lord powers in a non-Gallifreyan body (of course, this is complicated by this body being a Trakenite, the physiology of which we don't know much).

And it's also not clear if all Gallifreyans are Time Lords. The Outsiders, for example, seem to be Gallifreyans without Time Lord abilities (though we don't know for sure). It's entirely possible that Time Lords are a class of Gallifreyans who, after passing their exams at the Academy, gain all the Time Lord abilities at graduation.

Oh, some excellent Dr. Who trivia here. And, ignoring that we are massively off-topic, there are several areas where it is suggested that not all Gallifreyans are Time Lords, but I agree that the issue is vague at best.

On the Time Lords = Elves, I have to say that neither camp seems to ring quite (Time Lords = Elans conflates them far too much with humans...the Doctor is not at all human, even one that has undergone [insert unspecified mystical proces]). Time Lords, if anything, are kind of like hyperbolic humans with a conservative mindset than anything else. Sure, they have some bizarre physical abilities in various episodes, but being able to avoid being old by getting a new body, deciding that they are better than everyone and refusing to help the rest of the galaxy, realizing that the daleks will be dangerous some day and trying to outsource blowing them up to their own resident Black Sheep (all of which backfired terrifically), and otherwise calling themselves and acting the part of "Time Lords"....well, to me, all of that rings human.

Indeed, I think part of the reason that Time Lords are evocative is that the concept explores areas of human psychology that resonate well with us. On the other hand, while elves may have exotic appeal, the original idea of elves (conflated from both the Fair Folk of Celtic lore and the "elves" of Norse lore) was more of an exploration of the alien outsiders that come and subvert normal life with their strange charms, alluring beauty, and tales of timeless lands where life is an endless series of pleasures. While little of this has survived to the current manifestation of D&D elves, I think there are still elements of Tolkien elves that hearken back to their alien nature.

Anyway, I love both elves and Time Lords, though significant numbers of both have proven to rate rather high on my personal Douche-o-Meter. Actually, so do many humans, but I love those too.

Finally, let's all calm down before we get this thread shut down, which would be a shame. Not that any of us have said anything crazy or whatever, but I can see us moving that way (at least before the masterfully arranged DW tangent...bravo, Razierre).

I for one think that, while racism is nothing if not insidious in its ability to persist despite one's best efforts, even thus are paranoia and suspicion. I trust that creators weren't being malicious, and so believe that I can use their materials in a non-offensive way (or at least without inheriting undue offense...the offense I create is entirely my own, and used for dramatic purposes). While I am surely not immune to bias related to skin color, neither am I narrow-minded enough to believe that that is even the worst manifestation of our human tendency to think well of ourselves and poorly of the outsider/the stranger. I endorse the Big Boat mentality of role playing, and wish to have the game appeal to all kinds of people.

Personally, elves/drow are pretty cool to me, because it is stated/implied in several places that they are far more open-minded sexually than most humans, which is something sorely missing from RL.

[Segev]

[It] is stated/implied in several places that [drow] are far more open-minded sexually than most humans, which is something sorely missing from RL.

Ooh! Ooh! Now we have evidence that drow are a clandestine attempt to smear non-prudish sexual mores!

(See how easy it is to find "subconscious" "unfortunate implications?")

(Seriously; I bet if you were to give any aspect of a moderately-humanoid antagonist, I could find a way that it's a sign that the creators were subconsciously racist/sexist/bigoted/whatever. It's irrelevant whether it makes real sense or is even true, since the "unfortunate implications" are such that now you have to feel bad unless you atone by kowtowing somehow to the professionally offended group's claims.)

[Phelix-Mu]

Ooh! Ooh! Now we have evidence that drow are a clandestine attempt to smear non-prudish sexual mores!

(See how easy it is to find "subconscious" "unfortunate implications?")

(Seriously; I bet if you were to give any aspect of a moderately-humanoid antagonist, I could find a way that it's a sign that the creators were subconsciously racist/sexist/bigoted/whatever. It's irrelevant whether it makes real sense or is even true, since the "unfortunate implications" are such that now you have to feel bad unless you atone by kowtowing somehow to the professionally offended group's claims.)

As much as I may/may not agree with the thrust of your position, a big part of the problem is that none of us can really control whether others are offended by x or y. It may not seem sensible to me that they are or aren't offended by x or y, but my sphere of control starts inside my own head and goes only as far as I can shout (and even then, people that disagree usually just stop listening).

So, instead of shouting, I usually just suggest that we all return to a more moderate form of discourse in which we may, or may not, find some value or wisdom, but at least can receive and give validation by allowing everyone to voice their views and arguments openly and without fear of undue outcry.:smallsmile:

Generally I think we've all been quite sensible. While there was some Ubermensch in passing, we've so far thwarted even the mighty Godwin. That's high praise for a thread of this nature.

[AMFV]

I know I'm a late comer to the Timelords argument, but out of the Time Lords we meet: The Master, Rassilion, The Ranni, The Valeyard, Omega, Romana, and The Doctor (almost forgot Susan Foreman). The majority of them are pretty evil. And their culture is typically officious and domineering if nothing else. I mean they trapped the Doctor in a warzone, with no means of escape, and trapped his human compatriots there to try to stop the Daleks, they also tried to destroy all of reality to preserve their own lives. I'd say that qualifies as evil.

Hell, the Valeyard, and the Dream Lord, two incarnations of the Doctor we see are pretty evil, and the War Doctor is at best morally ambiguous. So it seems as though the doctor is definitely breaking the mold or at least breaking tradition.

As far as the similarities to Elves, there are at least a few. Although the Time Lords are closer to Atlantis than the typical Elves. The Elves are usually seen in decline, reminiscing about past glories, whereas for most of Doctor Who, the Time Lords were controlling and interfering in the affairs of others, restricting behavior based on their standards, enforcing said standards with extremely advanced technology, which is generally not what we see from the traditional elves.

[Phelix-Mu]

As far as the similarities to Elves, there are at least a few. Although the Time Lords are closer to Atlantis than the typical Elves. The Elves are usually seen in decline, reminiscing about past glories, whereas for most of Doctor Who, the Time Lords were controlling and interfering in the affairs of others, restricting behavior based on their standards, enforcing said standards with extremely advanced technology, which is generally not what we see from the traditional elves.

Most Time Lords believe they are neutral, as their mantra has long been "do not interfere." That's why the Doctor doesn't get on well with most Time Lords.

Ironically, most of the Time Lords you listed are actually also rebels from Time Lord society, who left Gallifrey for one reason or another to pursue their own dreams of conquest, forbidden experiments, or otherwise. Even Romana eventually found she didn't really want to go back to just watching the universe from a distance, never doing anything.

In a sense, Time Lord society across its billion+ years of history, is in decline when we see it around the time of the Doctor. They probably hit their apex just around the time when Rassilon (or maybe it was Omegar) was first alive, when stellar engineering and time travel were brand new. By the time they sealed the planet up behind their God Shields and other defenses, they had pretty much washed their hands of mortal affairs. Which as I understand it, was during Rassilon's lifetime, during which they engaged in the last few actual wars and extraplanetary affairs before hanging up their hat and staying home for countless millennia (though they did travel and observe, they just had to follow the Prime Directive to a truly stupid degree).

Which is why, when Rassilon et al come up with the "final sanction" in NuWho, it actually gains credibility as a way to "win" the Time War.

Anyway, we are officially waaaay off topic.

[Elderand]

I know I'm a late comer to the Timelords argument, but out of the Time Lords we meet: The Master, Rassilion, The Ranni, The Valeyard, Omega, Romana, and The Doctor (almost forgot Susan Foreman)
You forgot the warchief and the meddling monk as well as several other time lords that are downright heroic if not as recurring during the fourth doctor era.

[Phelix-Mu]

You forgot the warchief and the meddling monk as well as several other time lords that are downright heroic if not as recurring during the fourth doctor era.

Oh, I almost mentioned the warchief. Wasn't there some implication that the meddling monk later became the Master, though? Been a long time since I've seen those classics. And man, where those classics. Especially the War Games episode.

Anyway...DROW. YEAH, DROW. Umm....

:smallamused:

[AMFV]

You forgot the warchief and the meddling monk as well as several other time lords that are downright heroic if not as recurring during the fourth doctor era.

I did. My apologies it's been a few years for me, and I only ever got to see the PBS fundraiser marathons as a kid.

[backwaterj]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned that, despite the "usually evil" tag, the drow are, by and large, presented as a stronger, more powerful race than the elves that spawned them, with above average physical attributes (racial HD and ability adjustments), spell-like abilities to put a gnome to shame, and the ability to resist the spells of others. Their matriarchal society (which, granted, had a hefty dose of evil in its creation) is remarkably enlightened for a genre that has historically tended to marginalize women. If I were of the African persuasion I would be okay with this, even were it equated to my own brownish skin tones.

Core elves, by contrast, are, as has been pointed out, haughty and aloof, and I concur, just a bit more sneaky in their evilness. Even their patron deity made an enemy of the orcs by maiming their god and an enemy of the drow by means of the whole Lolth fiasco. They are nearly unilaterally dismissive of the affairs of "lesser races" except when they directly affect the elves themselves.

Frankly, I'd be more inclined to find racial stereotypes in the, pardon the pun, vanilla elves than the drow variety. Just saying. :smalltongue:

[Elderand]

Oh, I almost mentioned the warchief. Wasn't there some implication that the meddling monk later became the Master, though? Been a long time since I've seen those classics. And man, where those classics. Especially the War Games episode.

Anyway...DROW. YEAH, DROW. Umm....

:smallamused:

No they all were presented as completely separate characters, altough the master was a near carbon copy of the war chief when he first appeared. But again, just counting tv canon and not expanded universe, the war chief was executed, so different characters.

And then there is the corsair, which we only ever hear about from 11. But from little that was said, the corsair was very much like the doctor.

[Phelix-Mu]

No they all were presented as completely separate characters, altough the master was a near carbon copy of the war chief when he first appeared. But again, just counting tv canon and not expanded universe, the war chief was executed, so different characters.

And then there is the corsair, which we only ever hear about from 11. But from little that was said, the corsair was very much like the doctor.

Total thread derailment at this point, but there was a character in, IIRC, the final episode of the Key to Time series that knew the Doctor back on Gallifrey; can't remember the name though. It was vague about if he was actually a Time Lord or not, which I think gets at the issue of "are all Gallifreyans Time Lords?"

Oh, and there was the Doctor's teacher from 6, I think it was. He dies, too. Actually, there is a good bit of Time Lords showing up shortly before they get the big axe in the series.

[backwaterj]

Total thread derailment at this point,.

At this point?? :smallbiggrin:

[Zombulian]

As a nerdy white man, I ask those in this thread, can't we just accept that Drow are hot and that maybe them having ebony skin has something to do with it?

Fair enough.

[Phelix-Mu]

At this point?? :smallbiggrin:

Well, we had already strayed a bit from the drow issue to racism generally, and as that is some heavy stuff, I figured a little well-intentioned tangent probably wouldn't harm anyone.

And, really, Raziere's mention of Time Lords = space elves was something of a master stroke, even if I don't particularly agree with that view.

Speaking of which, Raziere, if you are still listening, are you sure you didn't mean to say that Time Lords = Eldar from WH40K? Cause that is a much more apt likeness, in my mind. And typical eldar douchiness and superiority complex is right in keeping with Time Lord views.