TPK: Whose fault was it?

[Angelalex242]

So, my story...

I'm playing a Paladin.

The Drow Rogue falls down a teleport trap trying to get loot. The rest of us spend some time debating what to do next. We agree to look for another method down after her...

When suddenly, the Halfling Rogue pulls a Leeroy Jenkins and jumps down the pit!

Then the Elf Bard shrugs and does likewise.

Then the Drow Mage jumps in the teleporter we know strips us naked as we enter.

My paladin, who rolled worst on init, is the last one. Two shadows that were essentially clones of party members were behind us. My Paladin, as he jumped in after the rest of the party, said, "So dies common sense."

It turned out to be the last thing he ever said, as a skeleton below dropped him with a critical hit. The Drow Rogue tried to save him, but the skeletons displayed unusual intelligence and ganked her next. The Bard died 3rd. The Halfling Rogue and the Drow Wizard ran for it. The Drow eventually pledged his soul to the Archlich and offered the Halfling as a dark sacrifice. The Lich accepted, and the Drow mage, now undead, became a general in the army of evil.

So, who was to blame for this being a TPK?

[hymer]

Why play the blame game? Speak with the group, evaluate, learn.

[BoutsofInsanity]

Well, it sounds like its the Paladin. Your character who is supposed to set the example didn't convince the Drow that the path of rightousness is worth dying for. Hence he has now fallen to evil.

As the DM, should totally have your Paladin raised from the dead as a monstrous character, a mockery of your former self. Cursed to exist in this powerful, but ugly form till you can bring the Drow mage to justice.

That's just my thought process. However, honestly, it just sounds like you guys had a good time playing a crazy session. Jumping in the pit after the Rogue seems like that's where it fell apart.

[Tholomyes]

"Who's to blame?" is the bad way to go about it. "How can we fix it?" is a much better attitude to take. First I'd say that the DM should not have put the party in a position where splitting the party without player or PC knowledge was a potential (unless I'm reading it wrong), especially when the decision to unsplit the party resulted in a TPK. In my DMing experience, even when the party is outmatched and outclassed, there should be some way for the party to get out alive (unless someone chooses to make the 'doomed heroism' move, which I'd consider to be better, but it should be player choice to do so, rather than as a result of TPK or DM choice)

However, on the players' side, I also tend to prefer when the players choose to display a bit of meta gaming, in the case of running for it, when a party member is down. Granted, I don't know your DM, but as a DM, I will never prevent a fallen PC from being dragged out of the combat, if the party decides to flee, so if the fleeing PCs just abandoned their allies, I'd have a group talk about how much Metagaming for the sake of party cohesiveness is desired; usually I find that most players are willing to agree to ground rules which allow for such (limited) metagaming.

But yeah, rather than throwing blame, talk with your group. If the rest of them were expecting a dungeon crawl, with repeated TPKs, and you are more interested in keeping a character for the long haul, and developing that character, then maybe the group isn't right for you. If the DM is the only one who wants a lethal game, then maybe someone should step up to DM a game that is closer than what everyone else wants. If no one wanted the TPK, but it just happened because of the dice, then maybe you should do a post-mortem of the session to see if there was any point where the DM should have held back, or the party should have decided to hold off and rest, but didn't, and take that knowledge into future games.

[Angelalex242]

What was I supposed to do?

I was a Tormite Paladin (this GM decided Forgotten Realms gods were in use) and Loyalty is kind of his thing. Once the rest of the party abandons common sense and goes down the hole...well, abandoning them isn't within my abilities.

[hawklost]

I guess I have a few questions that need to as are:

What version of the game are you playing since it is not 5e?
Could your party have taken on the Shadows if they hadn't jumped into the trap?
Did your party have leadership issues?
Was this a Module or a DM made area?
Should the DM change the game just because your party feels like being idiots? (which they were being in this case even if you all were enjoying it)
Knowing that the portal/hole was a trap, could your casters have teleported your to your ally without going through it?

It sounds mostly like you guys made bad decisions and the DM didn't hold back. (I prefer my DMs this way as long as they are not jerks about it.)

[hawklost]

What was I supposed to do?

I was a Tormite Paladin (this GM decided Forgotten Realms gods were in use) and Loyalty is kind of his thing. Once the rest of the party abandons common sense and goes down the hole...well, abandoning them isn't within my abilities.

It is always, you could have used your common sense to find a way to get to them. Being a Paladin (especially in 5e) does not make you stupid, it only says to do your best in following your strictures. You choose to jump in after your allies instead of finding a different way to actually save them. Its kinda like saying "well, he fell down a pit trap and died on the spikes, I couldn't leave his body there so I jumped down after him and died on them as well."

[Angelalex242]

No, it was ALL 4 OTHER PARTY MEMBERS jumped into the teleport trap first, leaving me alone up top.

[Tholomyes]

It sounds mostly like you guys made bad decisions and the DM didn't hold back. (I prefer my DMs this way as long as they are not jerks about it.)The issue I have with this is, did the first character know (or have reasonable cause to suspect, which could easily come in the form of the age old "Are you sure?" from the DM) that there was a trap, especially one which would be lethal/separate her from the party? Because, if not, it's very much a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" scenario. If the party didn't follow, the rogue would have no hope of surviving, which is just no fun, and if the party did follow, it'd have the potential to save the rogue, but also the potential to TPK (which ended up being the case), which also is no fun.

It's the reason I don't like these traps (which I call "F**k you traps" so called, because the player has no way of knowing or reasonably suspecting there being a trap, or at least there being a trap of such severity). With F**k you traps, the best possible solution is the party gets lucky (which is extremely unlikely, given that there was an archlich at the end of the trap) and everyone gets out alive. Otherwise, at least one, if not several or all of the party gets killed, which is rarely fun, especially if the individuals getting killed weren't attempting something that would obviously cause (or risk) their deaths.

[hawklost]

The issue I have with this is, did the first character know (or have reasonable cause to suspect, which could easily come in the form of the age old "Are you sure?" from the DM) that there was a trap, especially one which would be lethal/separate her from the party? Because, if not, it's very much a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" scenario. If the party didn't follow, the rogue would have no hope of surviving, which is just no fun, and if the party did follow, it'd have the potential to save the rogue, but also the potential to TPK (which ended up being the case), which also is no fun.

It's the reason I don't like these traps (which I call "F**k you traps" so called, because the player has no way of knowing or reasonably suspecting there being a trap, or at least there being a trap of such severity). With F**k you traps, the best possible solution is the party gets lucky (which is extremely unlikely, given that there was an archlich at the end of the trap) and everyone gets out alive. Otherwise, at least one, if not several or all of the party gets killed, which is rarely fun, especially if the individuals getting killed weren't attempting something that would obviously cause (or risk) their deaths.

Sorry, one player dying in a dungeon, especially if the party is high enough to be able to bring them back, does not require a DM to coddle the party. you disagree (I know you do) but the chance of death during an adventure is what (to me) makes the adventure exciting. If there really isn't a chance for failure, it isn't very fun (and death in Dnd are a failure, not an end a lot of times).

[akaddk]

When you're at a stage where you're looking to blame someone for a TPK rather than just getting on with the game and rerolling, then the problem isn't who is to blame for the TPK, but the entire group dynamic.

[Angelalex242]

This was a level 1 party, I'd like to add. I got dropped by one crit because I was level 1 and had 12 HP total to my name (and I was actually already down 3. The crit did 11 damage.)

The Drow Rogue saw a big gem over the pit (Which had a suction feature) and I'd thrown her a rope to try to save her. She insisted on grabbing the gem anyway, but to our surprise, the trap itself disintegrated the end of my rope and sucked her down (leaving her naked and alone with 6 skeletons trying to kill her.) The rest of the party did not know this.

So she hid on top of a statue while the party, above, decided what to do. The mage and the paladin had just argued out that they'd look for another method down...when, I think the Halfling rogue metagamed a little and realized the rogue was in lethal danger down there, and jumped down the pit. The elf bard, now following 'don't split the party' also went down the pit. The mage followed, and by the time it was my turn, I was alone up top...with two shadow clones of myself and the bard coming up from the side. That, I think, was the GM's way of encouraging me down with the rest of the party.

So, 5 level 1 naked party members vs. 6 skeletons. I was one shotted by crit (Even if I'd had my armor, it would do me no good against a crit, as crits don't need to be comfirmed anymore), as mentioned above. The drow rogue got killed trying to save my life. The Bard died before she got another turn. The Halfling and mage tried to run for it, when the mage, realizing he had no way out by himself, sacrificed the Halfling to the lich who ran the place and became an undead general.

Also of note:The game was played on Fantasy Grounds 2, an online system. One interesting thing about online systems is that GMs cannot fudge rolls. The dice are completely honest, always.

[Secret Bard]

The issue I have with this is, did the first character know (or have reasonable cause to suspect, which could easily come in the form of the age old "Are you sure?" from the DM) that there was a trap, especially one which would be lethal/separate her from the party? Because, if not, it's very much a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" scenario. If the party didn't follow, the rogue would have no hope of surviving, which is just no fun, and if the party did follow, it'd have the potential to save the rogue, but also the potential to TPK (which ended up being the case), which also is no fun.

It's the reason I don't like these traps (which I call "F**k you traps" so called, because the player has no way of knowing or reasonably suspecting there being a trap, or at least there being a trap of such severity). With F**k you traps, the best possible solution is the party gets lucky (which is extremely unlikely, given that there was an archlich at the end of the trap) and everyone gets out alive. Otherwise, at least one, if not several or all of the party gets killed, which is rarely fun, especially if the individuals getting killed weren't attempting something that would obviously cause (or risk) their deaths.

Do DMs still ask people "Are you sure?"? Whenever one of my players says their character does something, that's what happens, they do what they say. There is no voice from another dimension telling them its a bad idea.

As for noticing the trap, shouldn't the rouge of had searched the area before going after the treasure? That is generally where one would expect a trap.

[pwykersotz]

Do DMs still ask people "Are you sure?"? Whenever one of my players says their character does something, that's what happens, they do what they say. There is no voice from another dimension telling them its a bad idea.

As for noticing the trap, shouldn't the rouge of had searched the area before going after the treasure? That is generally where one would expect a trap.

I do it as a voice of common sense to ward off obviously bad ideas. Sometimes players get lost in their own imaginations and forget obvious problems. On the other hand, if I think the choice was born of anything other than ignorance, they don't get the warning.

[Secret Bard]

This was a level 1 party, I'd like to add. I got dropped by one crit because I was level 1 and had 12 HP total to my name (and I was actually already down 3. The crit did 11 damage.)

The Drow Rogue saw a big gem over the pit (Which had a suction feature) and I'd thrown her a rope to try to save her. She insisted on grabbing the gem anyway, but to our surprise, the trap itself disintegrated the end of my rope and sucked her down (leaving her naked and alone with 6 skeletons trying to kill her.) The rest of the party did not know this.

So she hid on top of a statue while the party, above, decided what to do. The mage and the paladin had just argued out that they'd look for another method down...when, I think the Halfling rogue metagamed a little and realized the rogue was in lethal danger down there, and jumped down the pit. The elf bard, now following 'don't split the party' also went down the pit. The mage followed, and by the time it was my turn, I was alone up top...with two shadow clones of myself and the bard coming up from the side. That, I think, was the GM's way of encouraging me down with the rest of the party.

So, 5 level 1 naked party members vs. 6 skeletons. I was one shotted by crit (Even if I'd had my armor, it would do me no good against a crit, as crits don't need to be comfirmed anymore), as mentioned above. The drow rogue got killed trying to save my life. The Bard died before she got another turn. The Halfling and mage tried to run for it, when the mage, realizing he had no way out by himself, sacrificed the Halfling to the lich who ran the place and became an undead general.

Also of note:The game was played on Fantasy Grounds 2, an online system. One interesting thing about online systems is that GMs cannot fudge rolls. The dice are completely honest, always.


Ok that sounds like it was beyond your party's capabilities to handle. Maybe talk to your DM about lowering the number of monsters or something.

[Tholomyes]

This was a level 1 party, I'd like to add. I got dropped by one crit because I was level 1 and had 12 HP total to my name (and I was actually already down 3. The crit did 11 damage.)

The Drow Rogue saw a big gem over the pit (Which had a suction feature) and I'd thrown her a rope to try to save her. She insisted on grabbing the gem anyway, but to our surprise, the trap itself disintegrated the end of my rope and sucked her down (leaving her naked and alone with 6 skeletons trying to kill her.) The rest of the party did not know this.

So she hid on top of a statue while the party, above, decided what to do. The mage and the paladin had just argued out that they'd look for another method down...when, I think the Halfling rogue metagamed a little and realized the rogue was in lethal danger down there, and jumped down the pit. The elf bard, now following 'don't split the party' also went down the pit. The mage followed, and by the time it was my turn, I was alone up top...with two shadow clones of myself and the bard coming up from the side. That, I think, was the GM's way of encouraging me down with the rest of the party.

So, 5 level 1 naked party members vs. 6 skeletons. I was one shotted by crit (Even if I'd had my armor, it would do me no good against a crit, as crits don't need to be comfirmed anymore), as mentioned above. The drow rogue got killed trying to save my life. The Bard died before she got another turn. The Halfling and mage tried to run for it, when the mage, realizing he had no way out by himself, sacrificed the Halfling to the lich who ran the place and became an undead general.

Also of note:The game was played on Fantasy Grounds 2, an online system. One interesting thing about online systems is that GMs cannot fudge rolls. The dice are completely honest, always.Seems to me that you should have a talk with the group and the DM. A lot of people will try to tell you that this is just the system working as intended, but if you, and the rest of the group were not having fun, then it clearly wasn't working as intended. 6 Skeletons vs 5 party members isn't a terrible fight, balance wise, assuming you had your armor, so it's quite possible that the DM didn't realize how much depriving you of your armor would hurt the party.

It seems to me that the DM's unfamiliarity with the system might have contributed to it, as well as just unlucky (for the party) rolling. I'd still argue that the F**k you trap was probably ill-planned, but it's quite possible that there was another way around it that the party didn't find. Going forward, I'd have a talk with the DM and the rest of the party about the level of lethality you expect out of the game, and you should also think, based on this conversation, whether this is the right group for you. If no one else had a problem with this, then maybe you should find a group that doesn't have a DM that uses those sorts of traps or is more willing to fudge things when it comes to player death or what have you.

[Sartharina]

Rather than just jumping in, there should have been a better plan to take the party out. It was kind of nobody's fault, kind of everybody's fault. Possibly the bard, who went in after the halfling rogue, who, from what I gathered, jumped in to take some of the heat off the first. It's not 'splitting the party' if the guys on top remained engaged with the ones below. And part of the TPK is from bad luck, as well.

Another problem might have been a lack of hammers for smashing those skeletons to pieces. 5 guys against 6 isn't an impossible-to-beat encounter.

[Theodoxus]

Here's what you want to hear: It was your fault. You did it. Grats. Learn from it, roll another pally and don't go last on the initiative. Nuff said.

[Dark Tira]

No, it was ALL 4 OTHER PARTY MEMBERS jumped into the teleport trap first, leaving me alone up top.
Well technically in that case it's your fault there was a TPK. Can't be a TPK unless everyone dies, so had you abandoned the party and lived a TPK would have been avoided. That being said, if all the characters are dead there's nobody left to blame and finding fault IRL is a good way to mess up a gaming group. Chalk it up to a DM learning experience and roll new characters.

[Sartharina]

Well technically in that case it's your fault there was a TPK. Can't be a TPK unless everyone dies, so had you abandoned the party and lived a TPK would have been avoided. That being said, if all the characters are dead there's nobody left to blame and finding fault IRL is a good way to mess up a gaming group. Chalk it up to a DM learning experience and roll new characters.

Or chalk it up to a player learning experience. While "No Soldier Left Behind!" looks good for morale, one of its natural results is minor losses being turned into TPKs.

[Angelalex242]

I don't think the Paladin Code of Ethics allows for 'abandoning the party' as a viable option.

Just sayin'.

That's the sort of stuff Falls are made of.

[Sartharina]

I don't think the Paladin Code of Ethics allows for 'abandoning the party' as a viable option.

Just sayin'.

That's the sort of stuff Falls are made of.

They were lost already. Nothing forces a Paladin to throw their life away for a lost cause.

[da_chicken]

So, let me get this right.

You're all level 1.

The DM puts in a trap that opens a pit to a teleporter that a) you can't see the results of, b) strips you of all your equipment, c) puts you into a room with 6 intelligent skeletons, and d) creates a shadow clone of the party member in the room with the teleportation trap that in all likelihood is meant to attack the remaining party members. At level 1.

Yeah, your DM is a ****.

[hawklost]

Yea, I will retract my statements above about it being anyone elses fault. If you truely were level 1 and facing that kind of crap then your DM needs to learn more balance.

(Note, Giving details like your level in this scenario is kinda important. If you had been something like 15 or higher it would have been more your faults I think)

[With a box]

I think you put this thread wrong category.
because 5e doesn't have paldin yet.

[Tholomyes]

I think you put this thread wrong category.
because 5e doesn't have paldin yet.

Could have been using playtest materials. That's what a lot of groups around me seem to be doing, for classes or rules which aren't in the basic rules. Personally I'm not really chomping at the bit nearly that much to play 5e, but hey.

[1eGuy]

So, who was to blame for this being a TPK?Possibly the drow thief for not checking for the original trap; possibly any character able to detect traps and/or magic. But mostly everyone for being dumb enough to jump into what they then knew was a trap.

The skeletons killed them; so what? That's what traps do. Skeletons or a 100' drop makes no difference, the players chose to jump.

But at least the drow got to reveal its true nature in the end :smallamused:

[Angelalex242]

The group does, in fact, use playtest materials until they finally get off their butts and publish the rest of the classes.

It is understood that if and when they put out a 'final draft' of such classes, we automatically switch over to the new rules, for good or ill.

[unwise]

Definitely the guys that could detect traps. Anybody had to be wondering why the gem was left in such an accessible area with no guards around. If they failed to detect a trap, then that just meant they failed to detect the trap, not that it was all clear. It is unlikely that the place was ever going to not be trapped. Either they didn't attempt to detect it, or failed and thought "yep, this is a room with a gem in it ready for the taking, I didn't miss anything".

Of course, if there was a cult in the room using it that they butchered their way through, there would be good reason for it to be out and available.

[Angelalex242]

No, it was a blatantly obvious trap we didn't even need to detect, because the pit the drow rogue fell down had a suction effect, and that's why I threw her a rope to save her. She thought she could get the gem anyway with a rope attached to her.

She was wrong. The mage deciphered the rooms and decided it was a teleport trap, and also knew it stripped people naked who entered it. The party had just finished agreeing to look for another way when the Halfling rogue jumped into the pit, throwing caution to the wind. And then the bard and mage ran in after the Halfling.

Which is how I came to be left alone up top with two shadow clones of myself and the bard for 'encouragement' to follow the rest of the party.

[hawklost]

No, it was a blatantly obvious trap we didn't even need to detect, because the pit the drow rogue fell down had a suction effect, and that's why I threw her a rope to save her. She thought she could get the gem anyway with a rope attached to her.

She was wrong. The mage deciphered the rooms and decided it was a teleport trap, and also knew it stripped people naked who entered it. The party had just finished agreeing to look for another way when the Halfling rogue jumped into the pit, throwing caution to the wind. And then the bard and mage ran in after the Halfling.

Which is how I came to be left alone up top with two shadow clones of myself and the bard for 'encouragement' to follow the rest of the party.

Can't help it but it again seems like most of the party was being really stupid. That said, it probably wasn't the greatest thing to have for 1st level adventurers.

[Lokiare]

I would blame this one squarely on the rule set. It doesn't provide enough idea of what a challenge should be at any given level.

It does not say that a nothing more than a 10' drop is appropriate for a level 1 party.

It does not say that 6 skeletons and no equipment should be considered an extremely difficult challenge.

It does not say that 6 skeletons and shadow party members are well within playability.

It doesn't explain any of this and just leaves it up to the DM.

This is one of those editions where for the first 10 sessions or so the DM is going to be TPKing or boring the party while they gain enough system mastery to inuit what should have been built into the rules.

[Sartharina]

The trap should have only taken one life. The party did the stupidest thing possible. Traps are allowed to be lethal if you play right into them.

[da_chicken]

I would blame this one squarely on the rule set.

What a ****ing surprise.

[Friv]

I'd say that there's blame to go around.

The DM created a trap which was super-lethal, but was also super-lethal in a way that encouraged other party members to put themselves in the line of fire. If the drow had just fallen in the pit and died, everyone would have said, "Oh, man, that sucks", but with the drow still alive, that seemed too callous, so they moved in. The DM also tried to create an out (from the description, the drow rogue was able to evade the skeletons, hide, and start working on a plan), so I'm pretty sure designing the trap that way was an accident.

The halfling's player tried to leap in so that the drow wouldn't die, which is noble. It was also, ironically, counter-productive, because the drow had things under control before the halfling blundered in. This was thus also a mistake, so some blame goes there.

Once two party members were down the trap, having the other three join them probably seemed like a reasonable choice. Especially with a couple of shadow clones on the surface area causing trouble (I'm not clear if they were created by the trap, or already present; the fact that one of them was of the paladin suggests that they were a seperate problem that was aggravated by players falling into the trap.) And heck, it's possible that the party would have survived anyway; a bard, a wizard and a paladin probably look like a solid crew for using magic to stop skeletons. But it was still a mistake. Some blame to the bard, less blame to the wizard, and frankly by the time the paladin's alone he's pretty much got no choice but to charge in after the others.

And then the skeletons rolled a crit early in the fight, and removed the guy who kills skeletons best while making it easier to kill everyone else, so the rules deserve a bit of blame too.

Finally, the wizard sacrificed the guy who could have gotten out to save his own life, so that's pretty blameworthy, but the game was effectively over by then so you can judge for yourself whether it's as bad.