Alternative Magic Systems

[AMFV]

I'm curious if anybody here has ever tried a campaign where they replaced the standard Vancian casting with any of the alternative casting systems. For example Incarnum, Psionics, or any of the Tome of Magic subsystems. I'd be really interested to hear how that went, and if nobody has tried it, any speculation on the effects would be really interesting. The only serious issue I could see would involve magic items. Certainly some of the thematically intense subsystems would produce a very different feel, a world where Incarnum is the standard magical system would be profoundly different for example. I could see all magic-users being somewhat feared in a world where Binding is the accepted system of magic, and magical understanding is less prevalent.

[JusticeZero]

I did, with Psionics in E6. It works fine. Magic items are a pain, you have to custom make a lot. Out of combat healing was a bit annoying, since the cost per hp of a Natural Healing dorje is almost twice as much, plus not working as conveniently. I had to describe how the classes tied into the setting. Then it just played like a good fantasy game with no problems or strangeness. The feel wasn't substantially different.

[Naanomi]

We played in a 'time travel' scenario in the campaign world to a time before magic was invented. Incarnum and a bit of True-Naming and Shadow-Casters were all that were available (and the latter two distrusted and hated). Oh, and through time-travel paradox a party member 'invented' the Dragon Shaman class that revolutionized healing of the era.

[AMFV]

I did, with Psionics in E6. It works fine. Magic items are a pain, you have to custom make a lot. Out of combat healing was a bit annoying, since the cost per hp of a Natural Healing dorje is almost twice as much, plus not working as conveniently. I had to describe how the classes tied into the setting. Then it just played like a good fantasy game with no problems or strangeness. The feel wasn't substantially different.

That's interesting to me, although not completely illogical, since Psionics is probably the closest sub-system to standard Magic. So when you say, not substantially different, do you mean that there was in essence no difference in feel? Since at least fluff-wise, Psions and Wizards are pretty distinct.


We played in a 'time travel' scenario in the campaign world to a time before magic was invented. Incarnum and a bit of True-Naming and Shadow-Casters were all that were available (and the latter two distrusted and hated). Oh, and through time-travel paradox a party member 'invented' the Dragon Shaman class that revolutionized healing of the era.

That's interesting, how'd the actual game go? Where there any unforeseen consequences?

[Naanomi]

That's interesting, how'd the actual game go? Where there any unforeseen consequences?
Healing was difficult, we had to mostly rely on the Dragon Shaman in the party for out of combat healing, and had to go into encounters weakened. Things like traps and whatnot were more of a threat when they took HP we couldn't recover instead of just sucking down healing items. Resurrection was essentially off the table completely so when we got near death it became a big deal.

Lets see... obviously the melee classes could really shine without spells; and the classes with minor 'magic' abilities really became impressive both mechanically and fluff-wise. Things like Poison and Special Materials became more important as well.

Oh, and some monsters were just brutal; the few with 'spell-like' abilities (they were rare in the game as well; after all in a world with no PC-controlled healing magic that Unicorn in the forest becomes down-right legendary) were awful, and it was fun watching everyone pick up a bow-and-arrow to try and handle even minor flying monsters. Having everyone track down a variety of weapons to handle DR (instead of letting magic handle those monsters) was also fun; and made tactics like Sundering more relevant (no magic loot to worry about being lost).

It was fun for a few months worth of diversion from the normal campaign setting.

[Red Fel]

That's interesting to me, although not completely illogical, since Psionics is probably the closest sub-system to standard Magic. So when you say, not substantially different, do you mean that there was in essence no difference in feel? Since at least fluff-wise, Psions and Wizards are pretty distinct.

Psions differ a fair amount from Wizards, but they're actually surprisingly familiar (no pun intended) for anyone who has played a Sorcerer. (In fact, the Erudite is more of the Psionic analogue to the Wizard than the Psion is.) Same BAB and save progression. Psions lose the familiar but get bonus feats. But the real similarity is the core mechanic - you still have your finite list of spells/powers known (60 at level 20 for Sorcs, 36 at level 20 for Psions), and instead of using "spell slots" you use "power points," which function the same way but are slightly more flexible.

In my experience, it's pretty straightforward for a Sorc player to switch tactics to Psion, at least in terms of gameplay and fluff. (At least until you get into augmenting...)

[SiuiS]

I attempted to rewrite the incarnum stuff once. Specifically to trick a player into using it (he hates incarnum for petty reasons. Like the word "chakra".) The feel I was going for was Wizardry, where every morning wizards (incarnates) would prepare spells as diagrammatic constructs that only showed under arcane sight; instead of pauldrons of defense or whatever, the wizard would have woven a mystic diagram into his aura that would flare brightly when activated. This would work smashing for most things, like the acid torc, since instead of spitting it's any commanded attack gesture and a sickly green-yellow magic circle appears, launching energy etcetera etcetera.

But I had to try and figure out what things were missing that were game-vital, those level specific things everyone always insists exist like flight or AoE or whatever, and add them in. Couldn't get the list though.

[Vaz]

There is a list knocking about, which includes a list of expected abilities, like immunity to [Death], Flying, Blindsense, Mind Blank, etc.

And it wasn't so much about as alternate system, but I played a low level gestalt game where the coming of "magic" to the world was unleashed after completing the primary quest. Everyone up until that point was a single class character, who lost access to all Supernatural and Spell-like abilities, spellcasting too - only (Ex) abilities were allowed, if they couldn't ACF the ability, there'd be some leeway, but if it was Supernatural in nature, it was a no-go. It was a 5 person party, a Barbarian Grappler, a spell-less Ranger archer, a Rogue, a Fighter, and Knight. As a consequence, there were only really none supernatural threats they were up against, until they learned of this Meteor which had struck the world from some other plane (in reality, a fallen god who had fled from an invasion of the outer planes from the far planes). He traded his divinity for access to this previously untouched plane to keep himself safe, but as it bled out of him into the land, it began to infect the world. Magical creatures begun to spawn from the magical power, the dead rose from tombs, treasure hunters became suffused with magical power.

After completing their main quest, they could gestalt with full casters (at a reduced level - they were level 6 by this stage, so their first full casting level was 5 behind their ECL - delayed casters had their classes changed so to be at the same progression. Meanwhile supernatural abilities began to flow into the world, so things which relied on magic, like a Paladin being able to summon her mount, or a Barbarians' spirit lion totem for pounce became accepted, tome of battle was now available as an option, as was magic. The main evil power was Necrocarnum and Psionics homebrewed, where the BBEG's used it to reap a merry tally across the land.

It was fun, but everyone kept forgetting their abilities. Going from I power attack full/I full defence/I run away to "I cast quickened chain lightning and summon a mystical flying pony who farts rainbows and talks in limericks" soon became a headache for the party, but I guess that fit the setting.

[AMFV]

Psions differ a fair amount from Wizards, but they're actually surprisingly familiar (no pun intended) for anyone who has played a Sorcerer. (In fact, the Erudite is more of the Psionic analogue to the Wizard than the Psion is.) Same BAB and save progression. Psions lose the familiar but get bonus feats. But the real similarity is the core mechanic - you still have your finite list of spells/powers known (60 at level 20 for Sorcs, 36 at level 20 for Psions), and instead of using "spell slots" you use "power points," which function the same way but are slightly more flexible.

In my experience, it's pretty straightforward for a Sorc player to switch tactics to Psion, at least in terms of gameplay and fluff. (At least until you get into augmenting...)

I was mostly speaking in terms of fluff, Psions are pretty mechanically similar to Sorcerers, although their ability to augment gets them a LOT more milage out of lower level powers, enough I think to make them pull ahead in versatility although I wouldn't wager on that, that's just my feeling.

Also I do agree that Psionics are pretty close fluff-wise to Arcane or Divine Spellcasters. There is a much greater focus on mental control and self-discipline, but since the Arcane is supposed to be by definition a little mysterious it works. Also it restricts magic to those with magical talent, meaning that you can't just become a Psion no matter how hard you study, which is actually something that fixes a significant fluff issue with magic in my opinion.

I'd be really interested to see how Binders, or Truenaming, or Shadow Magic, or Incarnum would work, I imagine that could be very different. Although I'm not sure if you'd get all the abilities you'd need. I think that having a class designed to craft magical items could fix a lot of the problems. (I'm not terribly familiar with the magewright), but something like that where they get the power to craft items of magical nature but not their own magical powers. Which fixes almost all of the available power stuff, I believe.


I attempted to rewrite the incarnum stuff once. Specifically to trick a player into using it (he hates incarnum for petty reasons. Like the word "chakra".) The feel I was going for was Wizardry, where every morning wizards (incarnates) would prepare spells as diagrammatic constructs that only showed under arcane sight; instead of pauldrons of defense or whatever, the wizard would have woven a mystic diagram into his aura that would flare brightly when activated. This would work smashing for most things, like the acid torc, since instead of spitting it's any commanded attack gesture and a sickly green-yellow magic circle appears, launching energy etcetera etcetera.

But I had to try and figure out what things were missing that were game-vital, those level specific things everyone always insists exist like flight or AoE or whatever, and add them in. Couldn't get the list though.

I'll have to try and find that at some point. I imagine that if you could somehow grandfather in item creation it would fix almost all of those problems though. You'd only have to be careful about allowing items that created things that weren't a part of the setting, which would be specific spells, but for example in Incarnum you'd have flight, so an item granting that wouldn't be too terrible, and so forth and so on.


There is a list knocking about, which includes a list of expected abilities, like immunity to [Death], Flying, Blindsense, Mind Blank, etc.

I've seen reference to this although I'm not sure if it's about. Probably lost into the mists of time. I've got the list of necessary magic items, I believe that would probably suffice, and then you'd just have to figure out any abilities that aren't included.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?187851-3-5-Lists-of-Necessary-Magic-Items

I'm not sure, and I'll have to do the work, but most of those things could likely be replicated, in almost all systems, and then it's just a matter of figuring what needs to be added from that point.




And it wasn't so much about as alternate system, but I played a low level gestalt game where the coming of "magic" to the world was unleashed after completing the primary quest. Everyone up until that point was a single class character, who lost access to all Supernatural and Spell-like abilities, spellcasting too - only (Ex) abilities were allowed, if they couldn't ACF the ability, there'd be some leeway, but if it was Supernatural in nature, it was a no-go. It was a 5 person party, a Barbarian Grappler, a spell-less Ranger archer, a Rogue, a Fighter, and Knight. As a consequence, there were only really none supernatural threats they were up against, until they learned of this Meteor which had struck the world from some other plane (in reality, a fallen god who had fled from an invasion of the outer planes from the far planes). He traded his divinity for access to this previously untouched plane to keep himself safe, but as it bled out of him into the land, it began to infect the world. Magical creatures begun to spawn from the magical power, the dead rose from tombs, treasure hunters became suffused with magical power.

After completing their main quest, they could gestalt with full casters (at a reduced level - they were level 6 by this stage, so their first full casting level was 5 behind their ECL - delayed casters had their classes changed so to be at the same progression. Meanwhile supernatural abilities began to flow into the world, so things which relied on magic, like a Paladin being able to summon her mount, or a Barbarians' spirit lion totem for pounce became accepted, tome of battle was now available as an option, as was magic. The main evil power was Necrocarnum and Psionics homebrewed, where the BBEG's used it to reap a merry tally across the land.

It was fun, but everyone kept forgetting their abilities. Going from I power attack full/I full defence/I run away to "I cast quickened chain lightning and summon a mystical flying pony who farts rainbows and talks in limericks" soon became a headache for the party, but I guess that fit the setting.

That is really interesting. I'd probably have tried for a smaller short list caster, because that fits well, but I'm not sure how the setting was or what the goals were there.

[Red Fel]

I'd be really interested to see how Binders, or Truenaming, or Shadow Magic, or Incarnum would work, I imagine that could be very different. Although I'm not sure if you'd get all the abilities you'd need. I think that having a class designed to craft magical items could fix a lot of the problems. (I'm not terribly familiar with the magewright), but something like that where they get the power to craft items of magical nature but not their own magical powers. Which fixes almost all of the available power stuff, I believe.

Binding and Incarnum are, in some ways, very similar systems, or at least close in nature to, say, Invocations. Basically, you do your little song-and-dance in the morning and get an all-day power.

That said, Binding and Incarnum are also more stand-alone systems than Psionics or traditional casting. By stand-alone, I don't mean they do better single-classed. Quite the contrary - I find them more useful in a mixed build than on their own. Rather, I mean that options to augment them are fairly limited.

For example, with traditional magic, you can take feats that allow you limited spontaneous casting as a prepared caster, and feats that can change the size, shape, duration and damage of a spell. A Wizard can have a feat that gives him special powers simply for having spells prepared; a Druid can take feats that augment his summoning; and so forth. Even with Psionics, there are metapsionic feats, feats that let you do various tricks with your power points and your focus, and so forth.

Binding and Incarnum are very limited. Incarnum feats are less about altering your soulmelds in unusual ways (apart from the usual essentia-investment method), and more about gaining more essentia, or being able to invest it in more things (like in your Power Attack, for example). In some ways, Incarnum feats benefit non-Incarnum-users more than Incarnum-users, since they add the great option of essentia investment to classes that lack it. Similarly, there are no "metabinding" feats; there are feats which give non-Binders limited Binding ability, and feats which make Binders slightly more effective or more efficient at what they do (such as Expel Vestige and Rapid Pact Making). Of note, some of the more useful feats in that book aren't exclusive to Binders at all - Empower or Widen Supernatural Ability can benefit a Binder, but it can also benefit any character that has a (Su) ability.

Where I'm going with this is that these classes would be very difficult to grasp for someone accustomed to mechanics like metamagic, spontaneously converting spells, augmenting via power points, and similar mechanics. There are so many ways to bend magic or Psionics into the shape you want, and by contrast Binding and Incarnum, on their own, are quite inflexible. In my experience, I find it both easier and more effective to play these classes as dips rather than single-classing them; it helps the players gain some knowledge of the system, but doesn't leave them reliant on it. (See e.g. the Warlock with a Binder dip, the Psion with an Incarnate dip, the Dragonborn Warblade with a Totemist dip, etc.)

And on your other point, yes, they'd need a lot of help from magic items. Neither Binders nor Incarnum-users, despite their admittedly mutable abilities, has quite the same versatility as your average primary caster.

[Chronos]

One big thing you'll be lacking is healing. Not just recovering HP; there are a ton of other ways to do that. But there's a laundry list of other miscellaneous status conditions that divine casters can remove (curses, disease, poison, ability score damage/drain, negative levels, blindness, deafness, paralysis, death, etc.), most of which are addressed in few or no ways by anyone else.

[JusticeZero]

That's interesting to me, although not completely illogical, since Psionics is probably the closest sub-system to standard Magic. So when you say, not substantially different, do you mean that there was in essence no difference in feel? Since at least fluff-wise, Psions and Wizards are pretty distinct.
What I mean is that it was a straight up swords and sorcery game without me making any attempt to make it that way. You didn't go to the temple of the healing god to have the power of the gods heal the warrior's faithful sidekick before seeking out the scholarly wizard in robes; instead you stopped at the monastery to have the Vitalists training there heal the warrior's faithful sidekick before seeking out the scholars at the academy who wore robes. You could have gone straight to the academy, I suppose, because there was probably some egoists there. The only niche that went missing was the mysterious nature types, and that isn't a necessary thing for a setting.

[JusticeZero]

One big thing you'll be lacking is healing. Not just recovering HP; there are a ton of other ways to do that. But there's a laundry list of other miscellaneous status conditions that divine casters can remove (curses, disease, poison, ability score damage/drain, negative levels, blindness, deafness, paralysis, death, etc.), most of which are addressed in few or no ways by anyone else.
A PF Vitalist or Egoist can fix them. Reportedly, there's something brewing to cover this in the Akashic stuff, but it hasn't come out yet.
I grumped for exactly that reason. In my opinion, having a status repair support type is the wedge to get a new subsystem into a hesitant group, and yet people who make subsystems seem to always save the "healer" for last, after everyone has already banned their systems from the table because the other early adopters are high op players.

[malonkey1]

One big thing you'll be lacking is healing. Not just recovering HP; there are a ton of other ways to do that. But there's a laundry list of other miscellaneous status conditions that divine casters can remove (curses, disease, poison, ability score damage/drain, negative levels, blindness, deafness, paralysis, death, etc.), most of which are addressed in few or no ways by anyone else.

5 words for you: "All construct party; Psionic Artificer."

[Fax Celestis]

I played in a "psi-fi" game once, which was basically standard D&D IN SPAAAAAAACE (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RecycledINSPACE?from=Main.INSPACE), and took out all the magic and replaced it with psionics. Magic items were refluffed as high-tech: blasters were just dorjes of energy ray in a pistol shape, for instance. It worked fantastically well.

[AMFV]

One big thing you'll be lacking is healing. Not just recovering HP; there are a ton of other ways to do that. But there's a laundry list of other miscellaneous status conditions that divine casters can remove (curses, disease, poison, ability score damage/drain, negative levels, blindness, deafness, paralysis, death, etc.), most of which are addressed in few or no ways by anyone else.

Well of note, most of those conditions are inflicted by divine casters or the undead (not all mind you, but most). Since we're looking at it from a DM perspective is possible to limit those monsters in the game, and recognize that those monsters are serious business.

Although the lack of easy healing also serves to fix on of the significant D&D vs. standard Fantasy parity issues. There is no easy resurrection button for characters, so death would theoretically become more meaningful. Being blinded by a Nymph could be fatal and permanently disfiguring rather than simply inconvenient, it would also probably lower people's viewpoint on Nymphs.

So the fundamental question is how much would this negatively affect a game, I mean if we're removing Divine and Arcane magic, what would we have to remove to make the game still playable as far as status effects go, or should we leave those in?


What I mean is that it was a straight up swords and sorcery game without me making any attempt to make it that way. You didn't go to the temple of the healing god to have the power of the gods heal the warrior's faithful sidekick before seeking out the scholarly wizard in robes; instead you stopped at the monastery to have the Vitalists training there heal the warrior's faithful sidekick before seeking out the scholars at the academy who wore robes. You could have gone straight to the academy, I suppose, because there was probably some egoists there. The only niche that went missing was the mysterious nature types, and that isn't a necessary thing for a setting.

That's interesting, I'm surprised that there wasn't much difference, I mean Vitalists are very different fluff-wise from the divine. At least I would assume that religion would have had a very different role in the game. Which is another advantage of using a system like that; it allows for there to be more diverse religions or philosophies than you might see in standard D&D. There is also room for genuine doubt, since the religious aspects aren't immediately visible. Which could produce some really interesting things.


A PF Vitalist or Egoist can fix them. Reportedly, there's something brewing to cover this in the Akashic stuff, but it hasn't come out yet.
I grumped for exactly that reason. In my opinion, having a status repair support type is the wedge to get a new subsystem into a hesitant group, and yet people who make subsystems seem to always save the "healer" for last, after everyone has already banned their systems from the table because the other early adopters are high op players.

So what you're saying is that Psionics basically runs as is (if you include the Mind's Eye), but that in your opinion the other systems require modification?


5 words for you: "All construct party; Psionic Artificer."

There's one potential solution.


I played in a "psi-fi" game once, which was basically standard D&D IN SPAAAAAAACE (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RecycledINSPACE?from=Main.INSPACE), and took out all the magic and replaced it with psionics. Magic items were refluffed as high-tech: blasters were just dorjes of energy ray in a pistol shape, for instance. It worked fantastically well.

That's pretty interesting, so we have one standard fantasy with Psionics and one D&D in SPAAAAAACE! That's a pretty wide breadth of stuff.

Edit: So I guess the question is what combinations do people think would be most interesting?

I mean I could see something with Truenaming (if it could only be salvaged) and Binding, where you'd have the colleges of studious magic, and then the Witches out in the wilderness, constantly at odds, philosophically and morally.

You could have something where Incarnum was the force of real power in the world, the energy of the soul, and then you could have it run counter to Shadow Magic, in essence the force of the absence of the soul. But those are just one sentence ideas, I'm not sure how it would play out, and at least one of those is pretty refluffed.

Also what do people think would be a good idea for PrC conversion, I mean for Psionics it's pretty easy, but not so much for Soulmelding or Binding.

[JusticeZero]

Vitalists are very different fluff-wise from the divine. At least I would assume that religion would have had a very different role in the game. Which is another advantage of using a system like that; it allows for there to be more diverse religions or philosophies than you might see in standard D&D. There is also room for genuine doubt, since the religious aspects aren't immediately visible. Which could produce some really interesting things.And I did have a lot of changes. But in practical purposes, those differences didn't change as much in practical purposes as I would have expected.
So what you're saying is that Psionics basically runs as is (if you include the Mind's Eye), but that in your opinion the other systems require modification?I use the DSP psionics for PF. I don't know how different the 3.x psionics are in practice.
The other systems do need something; they need people who write new subsystems to recognize that the best way to get people to use a new system is to let the guy who always plays the walking band-aid Cleric get his hands on it first before Tippy's kid sister gets to rampage around on the new classes in front of the guys who think monks are OP.

[AMFV]

I wonder how interesting it would be to have all of the subsystems present in one game. Sans Psionics I think, since that's turning out to be very close to Magic (not that that's a bad thing, but it's less interesting to explore). So we'd have Binders, Manifesters, Truenamers, and Shadowcasters all present in the same setting. And potentially Warlocks and Dragonfire Adepts, as well as Dragon Shamans (although since Arcane magic is profoundly changed I'm not sure how much their namesakes would need to change, dragons that is).

We'd also have to figure out interactions between then a la what was done on The Mind's Eye, since WoTC chose to not have barely any interaction between any of those subsystems.

Edit: You could even keep magic items around as relics, basically if you have magic and psionics have died out in the past, then all the items left kept working and that's the prime motivation behind adventurers. Also you'd have the divine aspect where there was once divine direct influence but now there doesn't appear to be, which is a pretty significant plot hook.

[Fax Celestis]

I wonder how interesting it would be to have all of the subsystems present in one game. Sans Psionics I think, since that's turning out to be very close to Magic (not that that's a bad thing, but it's less interesting to explore). So we'd have Binders, Manifesters, Truenamers, and Shadowcasters all present in the same setting. And potentially Warlocks and Dragonfire Adepts, as well as Dragon Shamans (although since Arcane magic is profoundly changed I'm not sure how much their namesakes would need to change, dragons that is).

We'd also have to figure out interactions between then a la what was done on The Mind's Eye, since WoTC chose to not have barely any interaction between any of those subsystems.

Edit: You could even keep magic items around as relics, basically if you have magic and psionics have died out in the past, then all the items left kept working and that's the prime motivation behind adventurers. Also you'd have the divine aspect where there was once divine direct influence but now there doesn't appear to be, which is a pretty significant plot hook.

You'd want to trawl the homebrew forums for stuff like this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?34260-PrC-The-Penumbracarnate) and these (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?126592-GitP-PrC-Contest-XIV-Hybrid-Theory) three (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?173986-PrC-Contest-XXIII-Hybrid-Theory-II) contests (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?229089-GitP-PrC-Contest-XXXII-Hybrid-Theory-III).

[AMFV]

You'd want to trawl the homebrew forums for stuff like this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?34260-PrC-The-Penumbracarnate) and these (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?126592-GitP-PrC-Contest-XIV-Hybrid-Theory) three (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?173986-PrC-Contest-XXIII-Hybrid-Theory-II) contests (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?229089-GitP-PrC-Contest-XXXII-Hybrid-Theory-III).

Those are outstanding by the way! Thank you!