RAW Sillyness

[Hazrond]

I just noticed something, the Energy Substitution feat from complete arcane specifies it uses a spell slot "of the spells normal level" so assuming super strict RAW applying Energy Sub at the end of a long chain of metamagic feats makes them all free :smalltongue:

[Snowbluff]

I've always read "normal" as something akin to "before you applied this effect."

[Hazrond]

I've always read "normal" as something akin to "before you applied this effect."

Yeah i know, any sane person would say no to it, but it still stands as a thing when the next Ubah Strict RAW™ debate comes up :smallamused:

[Snowbluff]

Sane? Nonono, I am sure I benefit from this reading by RAW with certain options.

[NeoPhoenix0]

an empowered fireballs normal level is 5. therefore even if you have metamagic reducers on empower applying energy substitution to it would make it a level 5 spell.

turnabout is fairplay

edit: to clarify you are not using energy substitution on a fireball you are using it on an empowered fireball.

now i wait for people to yell at me.

[ArqArturo]

an empowered fireballs normal level is 5. therefore even if you have metamagic reducers on empower applying energy substitution to it would make it a level 5 spell.

turnabout is fairplay

edit: to clarify you are not using energy substitution on a fireball you are using it on an empowered fireball.

now i wait for people to yell at me.

Loud Noises (http://youtu.be/7pdWAcK6Eh8)! :smalltongue:

But, seriously, that makes sense, to be fair.

[Snowbluff]

That's pretty much what I just said. :smalltongue: (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFlOZFSIsMQ)

[NeoPhoenix0]

That's pretty much what I just said. :smalltongue: (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFlOZFSIsMQ)

to be fair it is 12:30 in the mourning where i am. i need caffeine.

on the other hand there is some argument that an empowered fireball isn't actually a spell and that you must use the fireball's level instead. but that just doesn't seem right to me based off of certain phrases given in the books.

[ddude987]

I've always interpreted metamagics as being applied in an order, else how would reach spell persist work? Reach spell HAS to apply first. Taking the same logic, energysub a fireball makes it level 3, then empower it (+2), now its level 5. If we apply in the opposite order, empower fireball for level 5, then energysub it, same level, still 5.

[Hazrond]

I've always interpreted metamagics as being applied in an order, else how would reach spell persist work? Reach spell HAS to apply first. Taking the same logic, energysub a fireball makes it level 3, then empower it (+2), now its level 5. If we apply in the opposite order, empower fireball for level 5, then energysub it, same level, still 5.

According to the text the empowered energy sub fireball would be level 3 due to that being fireball's spell level :smallamused:

[Segev]

According to the text the empowered energy sub fireball would be level 3 due to that being fireball's spell level :smallamused:

Nah. The energy subbed fireball would be level 3, because that's fireball's normal level. The empowered energy subbed fireball would add 2 to that, making it level 5.

[ddude987]

I suppose it depends how you read it, no shock there, we're discussing RAW. If you consider an empowered fireball a "spell" then applying this feat makes it 5, else you would be very correct. I still stand by the fact that the level 5 empowered fireball is in itself the spell.

[Hazrond]

I still stand by the fact that the level 5 empowered fireball is in itself the spell.

But the rules for counterspelling clearly state otherwise

[Segev]

I suppose it depends how you read it, no shock there, we're discussing RAW. If you consider an empowered fireball a "spell" then applying this feat makes it 5, else you would be very correct. I still stand by the fact that the level 5 empowered fireball is in itself the spell.


But the rules for counterspelling clearly state otherwise

Technically, all you need is to identify "level 5" as the "normal level" for an empowered fireball. A substituted fireball is still level 3. A substituted empowered fireball is level 5. "But fireball is the spell," you might say.

...and as I type this, I realize that you could be right. However, the correct RAW interpretation if we want to look at it this way is NOT friendly to the poor spellcaster.

Empower says that it takes a spell slot 2 higher than normal.
Substitution says that it takes a spell slot of the normal level.

These are not in contradiction, and if you treat "normal" as being based strictly on the level of the base spell, having multiple feats which cost different adjustments to the level cost multiple spell slots.

i.e., because Empower takes a slot two levels higher, while Substitute takes one of the normal level, you pay a 3rd and a 5th to cast a substituted, empowered fireball.

The exploitable part comes in that you can technically stack as many +N level metamagics as you like, as long as they're all the same N, and only take the one spell slot.



This is, of course, not at all how I would read nor enforce it, but if we want to try to claim that "normal" in this context means "the base spell," all of them refer to "normal" as the baseline from which they operate, and specify they take "a" spell slot. Not exclusively one spell slot per spell.