Should the tier system be updated?

[Kafana]

I've seen it suggest that, for example, the melee warlock is a low tier 3 instead of a tier 4, and I notice the tier listing fails to account for MoI classes, the spirit shaman and a few others. So now that six years have passed from the original forming of the tier list, what would you guys change and where would you place the missing classes?

I saw (and got the idea to post this) another thread, suggesting that Incarnate and Totemist are tier 3, while Soulburn is tier 5.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

I've seen it suggest that, for example, the melee warlock is a low tier 3 instead of a tier 4

I highly doubt that, further more that's a build rather than a class. Builds aren't rated in the tier system. Some variants have been considered as seperate classes, but that's as far as it goes.

As to the main point, JaronK hasn't choosen to do so and nobody wants to try to usurp his work. Also, the old threads have been linked so many times that I doubt an updated thread would come up as the first result if it was made. Or not, I'll be honest I don't really know how web searches "work".

[NeoPhoenix0]

the tier system is very abstract, it doesn't tell you what tier classed can be it tells you about what tier a person who is comfortable with the system but not overly knowledgeable about optimization might be able to play a vanilla version of them at. it really doesn't mean as much as some people think it does.

[MeeposFire]

Also the melee warlock is more limited than you think (eldritch glaive has a lot of weird things that limits its effectiveness and claws are heavily discounted in these dealings by virtue of being dragon mag content) and is not different enough mechanically to be separated from the general warlock description to be considered separately I would think.


I think if you look around you will see that the incarnum classes are noticeably missing but you can find tier lists with them on it. Using the guidelines you can expect the totemist and incarnate to be in the tier 3-4 range while the soulborn is probably tier 5 (probably lowish tier 5).

[Psyren]

Every class that isn't in the original posting has been added and debated and re-added a hundred times over by now across various threads. A number are still hotly debated to this day (like Warblade and Healer) so codifying them in an "update" would just reopen all those wounds.

And if you add Pathfinder it just gets wackier as Advanced Class Guide is all set to dump 6 more classes and several dozen archetypes in our laps for classification too.

[thedmring]

I've seen it suggest that, for example, the melee warlock is a low tier 3 instead of a tier 4, and I notice the tier listing fails to account for MoI classes, the spirit shaman and a few others. So now that six years have passed from the original forming of the tier list, what would you guys change and where would you place the missing classes?


1.nothing.
2. as others have stated builds do not define tier so no the lock doesn't belong in tier 3, even though claw locks are vicious when optimized they can be shut down easily so no tier change.

3. tier system is not a definitive placement on classes. It's a simple guideline and tool to be used with a grain of sand. In other words it's not the end all be all.

I personally don't agree with everything on there so I really don't even use it tbh.

[Shinken]

The question usually goes along the lines of 'if martial adepts are tier 3, warlocks must be tier 3 as well'. If you believe martial adepts are tier 4, you should also believe warlock is tier 4 and vice-versa.

[adriana]

The question usually goes along the lines of 'if martial adepts are tier 3, warlocks must be tier 3 as well'. If you believe martial adepts are tier 4, you should also believe warlock is tier 4 and vice-versa.

Honestly I don't think I would ever put martial adepts in tier 4. With things like white raven tactics, time stands still...etc.. I think they're put right where they belong. I'm not as familiar with locks as I am sword sages and crusaders, however; from what I've seen they're just not as versatile without some real work. I will admit claw locks can pump out the damage though when built right, especially if allowed to work with the hellfire warlock prc.

edit:

I kinda compare locks to dragonfire adept. To me they're tier 4 unless you either take power surge from one of the dragon magazines(i forget which one) or the dm allows the dragonborn's breath to qualify him for meta breath feats. then you see the class start to hit bottom tier 3 imo. Locks who go melee start to hit bottom tier 3 when some oomph has been put behind them. Any rate I've derailed the thread enough.

[Lans]

I kinda compare locks to dragonfire adept. To me they're tier 4 unless you either take power surge from one of the dragon magazines(i forget which one) or the dm allows the dragonborn's breath to qualify him for meta breath feats. then you see the class start to hit bottom tier 3 imo. Locks who go melee start to hit bottom tier 3 when some oomph has been put behind them. Any rate I've derailed the thread enough.

I put DFA at the low end of tier 3, and warlocks towards the high end of 4. Give the warlock a few more invocations and skills to bump them up a tier.

I'd like a bit of details into what is a game breaking ability and what makes a factotum a tier 3 instead of 1. I figure some details on how somethings are game breaking at level 1 but not level 2 or 3. Like launch bolt or item

[Aegis013]

There is this one (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11714.0) which may be more what you're looking for.

[Shinken]

Honestly I don't think I would ever put martial adepts in tier 4. With things like white raven tactics, time stands still...etc.. I think they're put right where they belong. I'm not as familiar with locks as I am sword sages and crusaders, however; from what I've seen they're just not as versatile without some real work. I will admit claw locks can pump out the damage though when built right, especially if allowed to work with the hellfire warlock prc.

Martial adepts do one thing really well - damage. They can do a bunch of other things, depending on the specific class or build, but what they do is a lot of damage.
Melee warlock does a lot of damage, can debuff, can craft magical items, can dispel, can scout, can be a face, can get his own minions and can do crowd control.
Warblade does a lot of damage, can buff, has above average mobility, good resilience and little to no utility.
Swordsage does a lot of damage, has great mobility, is a good scout and gets some utility.
Crusader does a lot of damage, is very resilient, can buff, can tank as well as 3.5 allows and has some minor utility.

If one of those classes belong in tier 3, they all belong in tier 3 - that's one of the definitions of tier 3 ('does one thing really well but can contribute in other areas').
I can't blame JaronK for putting Warlock in tier 4 because people barely understood Eldritch Glaive when he made the list (JanusJones guide is all wrong, sadly), but insisting it should be in a different tier than the martial adepts after such knowledge has been spread throughout the optimization community doesn't seem right, IMHO.

[eggynack]

Martial adepts do one thing really well - damage. They can do a bunch of other things, depending on the specific class or build, but what they do is a lot of damage.
Melee warlock does a lot of damage, can debuff, can craft magical items, can dispel, can scout, can be a face, can get his own minions and can do crowd control.
Warblade does a lot of damage, can buff, has above average mobility, good resilience and little to no utility.
Swordsage does a lot of damage, has great mobility, is a good scout and gets some utility.
Crusader does a lot of damage, is very resilient, can buff, can tank as well as 3.5 allows and has some minor utility.

If one of those classes belong in tier 3, they all belong in tier 3 - that's one of the definitions of tier 3 ('does one thing really well but can contribute in other areas').
I can't blame JaronK for putting Warlock in tier 4 because people barely understood Eldritch Glaive when he made the list (JanusJones guide is all wrong, sadly), but insisting it should be in a different tier than the martial adepts after such knowledge has been spread throughout the optimization community doesn't seem right, IMHO.
I think a big part of it is that ToB optimization is pretty much entirely in ToB, while things like eldritch glaive or hellfire warlock require different books to work. The tier system prioritizes book closeness to a pretty high degree. It's the same reason that healers are in tier five, despite the fact that access to the sanctified spells in the book of exalted deeds and champions of valor make them more like a tier three or four (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?361558-Healers-as-tier-five-the-greatest-travesty-ever-committed-by-mankind).

[Shinken]

I think a big part of it is that ToB optimization is pretty much entirely in ToB, while things like eldritch glaive or hellfire warlock require different books to work. The tier system prioritizes book closeness to a pretty high degree. It's the same reason that healers are in tier five, despite the fact that access to the sanctified spells in the book of exalted deeds and champions of valor make them more like a tier three or four (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?361558-Healers-as-tier-five-the-greatest-travesty-ever-committed-by-mankind).

I don't think that makes much sense. Dungeoncrasher Fighter requires Dungeonscape (a very off the wall book) to work. Wildshape Ranger only becomes really good if you go book diving (aside from using one extra book for wildshape itself). Spell to Power Erudite requires Complete Psionics (a very bad book overall). Binder is only at tier 2 because of a web article. Every description JaronK makes of a Factotum in the original thread has to go over Iaijutsu Focus and gnomequickrazors (two extra books, one of them 3.0). All classes in the tier list make use of their full spell lists.

You know what, martial adepts aren't even the worst offenders. Tell me one thing a Duskblade can do that a Warlock can't.

[eggynack]

I don't think that makes much sense. Dungeoncrasher Fighter requires Dungeonscape (a very off the wall book) to work. Wildshape Ranger only becomes really good if you go book diving (aside from using one extra book for wildshape itself). Spell to Power Erudite requires Complete Psionics (a very bad book overall). Binder is only at tier 2 because of a web article. Every description JaronK makes of a Factotum in the original thread has to go over Iaijutsu Focus and gnomequickrazors (two extra books, one of them 3.0). All classes in the tier list make use of their full spell lists.

Those are separately listed, however, rather than fighter just being tier four, or ranger being tier three. As for factotum, those things are indeed somewhat important, and not separately listed, but I think that the factotum's tier is justified without them, mostly because of solid spellcasting (which does particularly well when not pressed for time), and partially because of good class features and non-IF skill use. I don't see much evidence that casters are dependent on books outside of their own+core for their tier either.

[NeoPhoenix0]

You know what, martial adepts aren't even the worst offenders. Tell me one thing a Duskblade can do that a Warlock can't.

Cast spells. Of course this only matters when you open up the full range of options like you suggest.

[Lans]

Martial adepts do one thing really well - damage. They can do a bunch of other things, depending on the specific class or build, but what they do is a lot of damage.
Melee warlock does a lot of damage, can debuff, can craft magical items, can dispel, can scout, can be a face, can get his own minions and can do crowd control.
Warblade does a lot of damage, can buff, has above average mobility, good resilience and little to no utility.
Swordsage does a lot of damage, has great mobility, is a good scout and gets some utility.
Crusader does a lot of damage, is very resilient, can buff, can tank as well as 3.5 allows and has some minor utility.
.

You might want to compare the damage for starters.

I would up Divine Mind to tier 5 flat out. It compares well with fighters and soulborns, and is on the same level in damage as a non acf barbarian.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

I don't think that makes much sense. Dungeoncrasher Fighter requires Dungeonscape (a very off the wall book) to work.

As Eggynack said Dungeoncrasher is listed seperatly, so it doesn't matter how "off the wall" the book is. If you're building a Dungeoncrasher, you are by necessity using the Dungeonscape book.


Wildshape Ranger only becomes really good if you go book diving (aside from using one extra book for wildshape itself).

Someone may step in and correct me and say that wildshape ranger's tier is based on taking wildshape based Prestige classes or Aberrant or Dragon Wildshape and Asume Supernatural Ability, but I think their tier is based largely on the utility of wildshape.


Every description JaronK makes of a Factotum in the original thread has to go over Iaijutsu Focus and gnomequickrazors (two extra books, one of them 3.0). All classes in the tier list make use of their full spell lists.

I remember him mentioning spellcasting and maybe a few other things, but I might remember a different thread where JaronK talked about Factotums being tier 3 before making it thread official. I think he made exceptions for classes that were obvious purmutations of existing classe, like Samuri, but him having played it or seen it played at his table was a prerequisite fr it going on the list. This is why Factotum took a good while to get on the list after release and presumably explained the absense of MoI classes, at least for awhile.

[troqdor1316]

Cast spells. Of course this only matters when you open up the full range of options like you suggest.

Aren't invocations technically SLAs, which count as spells for meeting any prerequisites? So they're basically spellcasters too

[NeoPhoenix0]

Aren't invocations technically SLAs, which count as spells for meeting any prerequisites? So they're basically spellcasters too

right in complete arcane it says they can't qualify for prestige classes that require a spellcasting level.

Edit: however, they can qualify for stuff requiring a caster level and certain specific spells.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Aren't invocations technically SLAs, which count as spells for meeting any prerequisites? So they're basically spellcasters too

There are other benefits to spellcasting.

Spell completion and Spell Trigger items cout your whole list, not just ones you know. Granted warlock has UMD and their taking it is generally taken as a given. There is still fail on a 1 though.

There are of course ways to add spells to your list.

[Kafana]

There is still fail on a 1 though.

Actually, UMD for a wand does not automatically fail on a natural 1. If you look at the text:


Try Again: Yes, but if you ever roll a natural 1 while attempting to
activate an item and you fail, then you can’t try to activate that item
again for 24 hours.

Meaning, this lock down happens only if you fail the check with that 1.

[Cranthis]

Tell me one thing a Duskblade can do that a Warlock can't.

Wear medium armor, cast actual spells (although a glaive lock and a duskblade are doing more or less the same thing with said spells), and have full base attack bonus.

[Kafana]

Wear medium armor, cast actual spells (although a glaive lock and a duskblade are doing more or less the same thing with said spells), and have full base attack bonus.

Full BAB isn't a big deal since the warlock targets touch armor.

[Chronos]

You also don't fail on a 1 if you never roll the die. Even with just the Elite Array, a 4th-level warlock will use wands successfully the first time, every time.

Personally, I think that even without Eldritch Glaive, warlocks are good enough to hit Tier 3. It's just that what makes them Tier 3 changes through the levels. At low levels, Summon Swarm absolutely dominates. About the time that starts lagging behind, you get Deceive Item for perfect wand use, and start picking up a few more invocations (and trade in Summon Swarm). And about the time that your invocations start lagging behind, you get Imbue Item, and become an artificer. Things are maybe a bit slow around levels 8-11, but looking at the full level range as a whole, they're pretty strong.

On other updates to the Tier System, I think there are actually two different Tier 2s. As it is now, the tier contains both those classes with access to Tier 1 abilities, but who can only choose a few of them, and those classes who can change out their abilities every day like Tier 1 can, but who don't have as good options to choose from. I would call sorcerers, psions, wilders, and favored souls Tier 2a, and wu jen, spirit shamans, and Web-enhanced binders Tier 2b. Shugenjas and shadowcasters, meanwhile, I'd call Tier 3 (I'm not sure how much agreement there is on that point).

[Psyren]

You also don't fail on a 1 if you never roll the die. Even with just the Elite Array, a 4th-level warlock will use wands successfully the first time, every time.

How do you get away with not rolling? You can't take 10 on UMD.

EDIT: Duh, warlock :smallredface:

[Shinken]

If 'casting spells' is what gets the Duskblade on tier 3, there are several other classes that should be there, such as as Healer, Paladin and Ranger.

Duskblade spell list is terrible and you can't expand it unless you fish for resources outside of PHB2. It's nor only terrible as a spell list, it's terrible for the Duskblade's shtick - they get no touch attack spells after level 3. Duskblades also don't know all the spells in their list so even some of the ways to expand a spell list (such as Divine Disciple) don't work well for them.

Please, show me something in the Duskblade spell list that a Warlock can't do better. I'm going to save you some time - you won't find it.

[NeoPhoenix0]

no, the reason they are tier 3 is because they have an ability to dish out a disproportionate amount of damage in one turn compared to their level and have the versatility that comes with being able to cast spells.

[Shinken]

no, the reason they are tier 3 is because they have an ability to dish out a disproportionate amount of damage in one turn compared to their level and have the versatility that comes with being able to cast spells.

Which versatility? What is there to cast in the Duskblade list that makes them so versatile? See invisibility? Flight? Teleportation? Warlock gets all of this as well. They also deal a lot of damage per round and their damage dealing goes online before Duksblade (which is only noteworthy after level 13).
Before level 13, Arcane Channeling is pretty much the same thing as Hideous Blow... and Hideous Blow blows hideously.

[NeoPhoenix0]

duskblade can do a lot of damage at level 3, by level 5 they can be expected to do in the area of 80+ damage in a round. traditional duskblade builds do not rely on just arcane channeling to do damage, they rely on their spell list, feats, and items to maximize this and a lot of the stuff they usually use requires actual spellcasting to pump in as much damage as possible, and being able to cast spells allows them to potentially expand their spell list and get into some pretty awesome feats and prestige classes.

for example through shenanigans a duskblade can go duskblade 13/ initiate of the sevenfold veil 7.

[Cranthis]

Which versatility? What is there to cast in the Duskblade list that makes them so versatile? See invisibility? Flight? Teleportation? Warlock gets all of this as well. They also deal a lot of damage per round and their damage dealing goes online before Duksblade (which is only noteworthy after level 13).
Before level 13, Arcane Channeling is pretty much the same thing as Hideous Blow... and Hideous Blow blows hideously.

I'm gonna focus on the damage thing for a second, as the utility is situational. At level 5, a Warlock does 3d6+ weapon damage, with hideous blow. A Duskblade can do 5d6+ weapon damage with a channel. Where in that is the warlock doing better?

[Shinken]

duskblade can do a lot of damage at level 3, by level 5 they can be expected to do in the area of 80+ damage in a round. traditional duskblade builds do not rely on just arcane channeling to do damage, they rely on their spell list, feats, and items to maximize this and a lot of the stuff they usually use requires actual spellcasting to pump in as much damage as possible, and being able to cast spells allows them to potentially expand their spell list and get into some pretty awesome feats and prestige classes.

for example through shenanigans a duskblade can go duskblade 13/ initiate of the sevenfold veil 7.

Prestige classes are not considered by the tier system. Arcane Strike is not in PHB2. No Duskblade boosting item is in the PHB2 or in the DMG.
A melee warlock deals more damage than a Duskblade without even optimizing just because it has better accuracy.

[Cranthis]

Prestige classes are not considered by the tier system. Arcane Strike is not in PHB2. No Duskblade boosting item is in the PHB2 or in the DMG.
A melee warlock deals more damage than a Duskblade without even optimizing just because it has better accuracy.

How? Warlocks can do touch attacks, Duskblades can do touch attacks.

[NeoPhoenix0]

Prestige classes are not considered by the tier system. Arcane Strike is not in PHB2. No Duskblade boosting item is in the PHB2 or in the DMG.
A melee warlock deals more damage than a Duskblade without even optimizing just because it has better accuracy.

1. true strike
2. you're the one who said the tier system uses all the available resources

[Amidus Drexel]

I'm gonna focus on the damage thing for a second, as the utility is situational. At level 5, a Warlock does 3d6+ weapon damage, with hideous blow. A Duskblade can do 5d6+ weapon damage with a channel. Where in that is the warlock doing better?

Strictly speaking - save against fear for adding frightful blast to it, and repeatability (warlocks can use hideous blow all day - although duskblades do get a lot of spell slots). Not a lot of points in the warlock's favor, but they're there.

If we ignore all of the nonsense about hideous blow - range and touch armor class. If we're using eldritch glaive, swap range for attacks of opportunity.

I do agree with you that the duskblade's channeling is better than hideous blow, though - but I'd say it's roughly on par with the rest of the warlock's attacking abilities at level 5.

[Shinken]

How? Warlocks can do touch attacks, Duskblades can do touch attacks.
If a Duskblade uses a touch spell, it can't use all of the ways it can boost damage (Arcane Strike, Power Attack, etc)


1. true strike
So you only attack every other round? How very optimized of you.


2. you're the one who said the tier system uses all the available resources
I'm not saying it does that, I'm saying the restriction for one book is pointless, because it is not applied uniformly.
Damage from a Duskblade and a melee Warlock is pretty much the same (the Duskblade has a small advantage between levels 3 and 7, Warlock does more damage from 8-12, Duskblade can go nova at level 13, but so can a Warlock with Quicken SLA). Let's see a fairly non-optimized example:
Let's say you have a Duskblade at level 8. Shocking Grasp is your best bet for damage at 5d6. You Arcane Channel it through a greatsword. That's 7d6 damage. Let's say you have Str 20. That's 7d6+7 damage. Hell, let's give you a +1 weapon with a lesser crystal. 8d6+8 at +14 to hit. Average monster AC at CR 8 is 24. You hit 50% of the time for an average of 36 damage. Damage per round: 18 (you could also just attack every other round with True Strike - you hit 95% of the time, but since you only attack half the time, your accuracy is 42.5% for 15.3 damage per round)
A level 8 Warlock with eldritch glaive, a lesser chasuble of fell power and Str 14 attacks twice at +8 for 5d6 damage (17.5 average). Average touch AC at level 8 is 12. He hits 80% of the time with each hit and 64% of the time with both. Damage per round: 22.4
Warlock's Scepter is available for the Warlock at the same time as Arcane Strike is available for the Duskblade - both provide more or less the same damage bonus.


Strictly speaking - save against fear for adding frightful blast to it, and repeatability (warlocks can use hideous blow all day - although duskblades do get a lot of spell slots). Not a lot of points in the warlock's favor, but they're there.

If we ignore all of the nonsense about hideous blow - range and touch armor class. If we're using eldritch glaive, swap range for attacks of opportunity.

I do agree with you that the duskblade's channeling is better than hideous blow, though - but I'd say it's roughly on par with the rest of the warlock's attacking abilities at level 5.
No melee warlock uses Hideous Blow. Hidebous Blow blows hideously. And the one thing Arcane Channeling has over Hideous Blow is that it does not provoke.

[Anlashok]

2. you're the one who said the tier system uses all the available resources

Naw. It ignores PrCing and Multiclassing because that entirely changes the dimension of the classes involved.

It also tends to ignore high op and high level stuff.

[Gavinfoxx]

It already has been?

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=8740

[Story]

Shugenjas and shadowcasters, meanwhile, I'd call Tier 3 (I'm not sure how much agreement there is on that point).

From what I've read, Shadowcasters are tier 5. Not even close to 3. The big issue is their cripplingly low number of mysteries per day, and being MAD doesn't help.

[The Insaniac]

Shadowcasters really depend on both level and if you use the (quasi-official) fix. Past level seven or so, they're actually not that badly off, it's just that the first few levels are incredibly painful. The author's fix also gives them a huge boost.

[Lans]

If a Duskblade uses a touch spell, it can't use all of the ways it can boost damage (Arcane Strike, Power Attack, etc)


So you only attack every other round? How very optimized of you.


I'm not saying it does that, I'm saying the restriction for one book is pointless, because it is not applied uniformly.
Damage from a Duskblade and a melee Warlock is pretty much the same (the Duskblade has a small advantage between levels 3 and 7, Warlock does more damage from 8-12, Duskblade can go nova at level 13, but so can a Warlock with Quicken SLA). Let's see a fairly non-optimized example:
Let's say you have a Duskblade at level 8. Shocking Grasp is your best bet for damage at 5d6. You Arcane Channel it through a greatsword. That's 7d6 damage. Let's say you have Str 20. That's 7d6+7 damage. Hell, let's give you a +1 weapon with a lesser crystal. 8d6+8 at +14 to hit. Average monster AC at CR 8 is 24. You hit 50% of the time for an average of 36 damage. Damage per round: 18 (you could also just attack every other round with True Strike - you hit 95% of the time, but since you only attack half the time, your accuracy is 42.5% for 15.3 damage per round)
A level 8 Warlock with eldritch glaive, a lesser chasuble of fell power and Str 14 attacks twice at +8 for 5d6 damage (17.5 average). Average touch AC at level 8 is 12. He hits 80% of the time with each hit and 64% of the time with both. Damage per round: 22.4
Warlock's Scepter is available for the Warlock at the same time as Arcane Strike is available for the Duskblade - both provide more or less the same damage bonus.
.
1 The Duskblade can pile on swift action spells like sure strike, swift invisibility or blades of blood. Blades of Blood adds 5.25 to the average damage per round.
2 The warlocks attack routine should be +8/3 not 2 attacks at +8, so the warlock hits 80% and 55% for an average damage of
3 Doesn't Eldritch Glaive require a full round action to use? What happens when the enemy doesn't sit still for you?
4 I think the warlocks chausable costs more than the Duskblades weapon and crystal, but i'm not sure


Shugenjas and shadowcasters, meanwhile, I'd call Tier 3 (I'm not sure how much agreement there is on that point).

From what I've read, Shadowcasters are tier 5. Not even close to 3. The big issue is their cripplingly low number of mysteries per day, and being MAD doesn't help.
I;m on the oppinion that they start at 5 and hit tier 4 at level 7, and tier 3 sometime after level 13

[Chronos]

OK, I don't have any experience with shadowcasters, and didn't realize that they were quite that crippled. They're kind of hard to wrap your mind around. Was I right about shugenjas, though? My thinking is that "limited spells known off of a relatively small list" looks a lot like Bard or Beguiler.

[Psyren]

Yes, Shugenjas are T3. Their list is functional but they are missing most of T2's key tricks. (No Miracle, no Wish, no Gate, no Polymorph, no Simulacrum, no Planar Binding/Ally etc.) The need to pick an order and element limits you, though it does not cripple you,

[Shinken]

1 The Duskblade can pile on swift action spells like sure strike, swift invisibility or blades of blood. Blades of Blood adds 5.25 to the average damage per round.
It also kills the Duskblade really fast.


2 The warlocks attack routine should be +8/3 not 2 attacks at +8, so the warlock hits 80% and 55% for an average damage of
Oh, that could mess up the calcs. How about we don't give the Duskblade an edge on ability scores, then? With both beginning at +5, the Warlock attaks at +11/+6. First attack hits 95% of the time, second attack hits 70% of the time. Accuracy goes up to 66.5%, actually increasing warlock damage per round. Thanks for pointing this out.


3 Doesn't Eldritch Glaive require a full round action to use? What happens when the enemy doesn't sit still for you?
You close on it using Quicksliver Boots, Chronocharm of the Horizon Walker or Anklets of Translocation. Or you took Sudden Leap with Martial Study. Or you use knight's move, hustle or dimension hop from a wand/dorje. (none of those items cost more than 5k) Or you have a mount, which works surprisingly well with eldritch glaive, since it is not a full-attack. Or you can spend your action debuffing them from range.


4 I think the warlocks chausable costs more than the Duskblades weapon and crystal, but i'm not sure
It is more expensive, but still well within the wealth of an 8th level character. If you upgrade the duskblade's weapon to +2, he spends more money and is still behind in terms of damage.

[Story]

Shadowcasters really depend on both level and if you use the (quasi-official) fix. Past level seven or so, they're actually not that badly off, it's just that the first few levels are incredibly painful. The author's fix also gives them a huge boost.

Shadowcasters with the fix should be tiered seperately. But first you'd have to specify precisely which rules you're using, since the author posted several variations on the suggested fixes.

[Lans]

It also kills the Duskblade really fast.
Maybe, but it does put him ahead in damage. I mostly hope the swift invisibility could of put him a head


Oh, that could mess up the calcs. How about we don't give the Duskblade an edge on ability scores, then? With both beginning at +5, the Warlock attaks at +11/+6. First attack hits 95% of the time, second attack hits 70% of the time. Accuracy goes up to 66.5%, actually increasing warlock damage per round. Thanks for pointing this out.


To 23.25 right? I think the Duskblade pushes past that with the blades of blood. Did you factor in spell resistance at all?


You close on it using Quicksliver Boots, Chronocharm of the Horizon Walker or Anklets of Translocation. Or you took Sudden Leap with Martial Study. Or you use knight's move, hustle or dimension hop from a wand/dorje. (none of those items cost more than 5k) Or you have a mount, which works surprisingly well with eldritch glaive, since it is not a full-attack. Or you can spend your action debuffing them from range. How do the cost of those compare to an eternal wand of wraith strike? If the warlock spends a feat on sudden leap, the duskblade can grab power attack to up his damage by about 8.



It is more expensive, but still well within the wealth of an 8th level character. If you upgrade the duskblade's weapon to +2, he spends more money and is still behind in terms of damage.

Maybe, but there are other options, and looking at this in a vacume probably does't do much good.

[nedz]

The tier system is not about how much damage you can do, it's about how versatile the class is at solving different types of challenges.

[Lans]

Damage is a way to solve challenges

[Giddonihah]

It already has been?

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=8740

Just want to say that it annoys me that that list puts Truenamer at Tier6. Its a broken class, I get that, but even at absolute worst most broken its a 3/4 Bab class with a good will save, free knowledge focus, d6HD oh and UMD as a class skill. The Map and Tool lexicons are usable even at low OP too, and they are frankly where half of the best Truename abilities lie.

At worst not even using Truenaming its obviously in the 5th tier alongside Expert. With higher optimization it rises to a clear tier 4, as the strengths of truenaming start to shine through its brokenness (damage that pierces through most defense, infinite consumables, saveless debuffs, and makes an alright Gish)

[Psyren]

Damage is a way to solve challenges

Damage solves a very small number of challenges (Vaarsuvius' Theorem (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0696.html) not withstanding.) More to the point, it solves them in a very small number of ways. Versatility is what gets you to higher tiers, not numbers - differences in kind, not differences in degree/scale.

[NeoPhoenix0]

k just want to point some stuff out,

duskblade
-full bab
-two good saves
-d8 hd
-2+int skills
-int based casting (getting more bonus spells and increasing save dc gets more skills)
-21 first level+ spells
-decent selection of cantrips both in cantrip form and in a class ability
-narrower spell selection

Warlock
-3/4 bab
-one good save
-d6 hd
-2+int skills
-cha based "casting" (dump stat, that they don't actually need to be very effective, so eh?)
-12 invocations
-detect magic at will
-versatile invocation selection
-umd

as a whole the duskblade has a better or equal base everywhere, then you have the more of your spell list vs a more versatile list thing, though the duskblade has almost twice as many "spells" as a warlock.
finally you can't ignore the warlock's umd.

on skill lists they both have fairly similar and limited lists, note worthy differences includes warlock's umd, and duskblade's all knowledge skills.

[Gnaeus]

To original question, no it shouldn't and here's why.

The tier system does well enough at what it is supposed to do. It roughly grades classes into groups, so that a DM without a lot of system mastery will understand that a cleric is more powerful than a fighter.

But in most cases, the difference between a high tier 4 and a low tier 3 is miniscule. They can probably play in the same party and no one is likely to notice the difference. Remember that class tier is actually less important to character success than is player ability and the specific build.

Moreover, everyone has their favorite classes, and their own opinions on how the tier system should rank them. Personally, I think the Beguiler and Dread Necro belong in tier 2, because at low op they are stronger than a favored soul, and by mid op they have huge options to expand their spell lists in game breaking ways. And I could and have argue this point for hours. But ultimately, whether the Beguiler is top of tier 3 or bottom of tier 2 makes absolutely no difference. And don't forget the endless debates about what is equivalent optimization to what, because no one agrees on that! So why spend endless hours re-inventing the wheel, when you won't get any better concensus than JaronK did, and your final product will still be nothing but a lose guideline.

I guess if you wanted to change some of the basic tier list assumptions, like "what would class tiers be in a game with a magic mart where they could be guaranteed to have class critical gear" or "what would class tiers be in a game where all books are clearly available to all players" might get different results. But still, it sounds like we will argue for hours and wind up with something pretty similar to what we have.

[Flickerdart]

From what I've read, Shadowcasters are tier 5. Not even close to 3. The big issue is their cripplingly low number of mysteries per day, and being MAD doesn't help.
Shadowcasters are a very solid T4 - they don't have many mysteries known or uses of them per-day, but they can be built without much effort to either shine at a specialty or do decent at a whole bunch of things. They're only MAD when compared to T1 casters.

[Shinken]

Maybe, but it does put him ahead in damage. I mostly hope the swift invisibility could of put him a head
Invisibility is a small buff to hit... and something the Warlock does as well. You can do it with an invocation or as a swift action using a wand.


To 23.25 right? I think the Duskblade pushes past that with the blades of blood. Did you factor in spell resistance at all?
Considering spell resistance applies equally to both, I don't see how that would matter.


How do the cost of those compare to an eternal wand of wraith strike? If the warlock spends a feat on sudden leap, the duskblade can grab power attack to up his damage by about 8.
An eternal wand of wraithstrike is useless. Wraithstrike is a spell that needs to be spammed to be useful and an eternal wand can only be used twice a day.
Also, Duskblade does not have Use Magic Device to use an actual wand of Wraithstrike. Spending almost 5k for an accuracy buff twice a day is awful, specially considering it takes up your wandchamber slot.


Maybe, but there are other options, and looking at this in a vacume probably does't do much good.
That's pretty much irrelevant. What has already been established is that a melee warlock's damage output is on par with a Duskblade's and that Warlock invocations are more versatile than the extremely bad Duskblade spell list. If Duskblade is tier 3, Warlock must be tier 3.

[MeeposFire]

Just want to say that it annoys me that that list puts Truenamer at Tier6. Its a broken class, I get that, but even at absolute worst most broken its a 3/4 Bab class with a good will save, free knowledge focus, d6HD oh and UMD as a class skill. The Map and Tool lexicons are usable even at low OP too, and they are frankly where half of the best Truename abilities lie.

At worst not even using Truenaming its obviously in the 5th tier alongside Expert. With higher optimization it rises to a clear tier 4, as the strengths of truenaming start to shine through its brokenness (damage that pierces through most defense, infinite consumables, saveless debuffs, and makes an alright Gish)

Honestly the Truenamer is one of the few classes that should not be listed on the tier list. The reason being is that unlike most classes a Truenamer needs to be optimized to even work at all whereas most classes only determine their effectiveness through optimization.

An example would be the fighter. A fighter with poor optimization works it just works about as poorly as you make it. A truenamer on the other hand that is made even at a "moderate" (as in not using any special tricks) level becomes unable to affect others or himself which means he will no longer work after a time. In order to make a working Truenamer you need to optimize and that really messes with the tier rankings because those rankings are supposed to be optimization neutral (as in when you compare the classes the idea is to use the same relative amount of optimization on each).

I really like the truenamer idea and if you make it like a warlock (at will use of its non-item/map powers) it becomes a very useful class (even better if you remove the stupid law of sequence though you can get around that by just spamming a lot of different powers and/or having several different levels of the same kind of power).

[Story]

At worst not even using Truenaming its obviously in the 5th tier alongside Expert.

Expert does get a choice of more useful class skills. So they have that going for them. But they both have UMD, and that is the most important skill.

[Lans]

Invisibility is a small buff to hit... and something the Warlock does as well. You can do it with an invocation or as a swift action using a wand. point on the warlock invocation


Considering spell resistance applies equally to both, I don't see how that would matter.
Duskblade is getting a +2 bonus, and even if it fails the enemy is getting hit by a greatsword.


An eternal wand of wraithstrike is useless. Wraithstrike is a spell that needs to be spammed to be useful and an eternal wand can only be used twice a day.
Also, Duskblade does not have Use Magic Device to use an actual wand of Wraithstrike. Spending almost 5k for an accuracy buff twice a day is awful, specially considering it takes up your wandchamber slot.

Considering the warlock is needing to spend money or feats on a way to poorly get to the enemy to use his eldritch glaive i think a twice a day buff is fine in comparison, considering how close in price it is to the best option item wise, the quicksilver boots


That's pretty much irrelevant. What has already been established is that a melee warlock's damage output is on par with a Duskblade's and that Warlock invocations are more versatile than the extremely bad Duskblade spell list. If Duskblade is tier 3, Warlock must be tier 3.

The warlocks damage is only on par starting at level 8 and needs the enemies to sit still, or items, and not if the duskblade uses his swift action to cast blades of blood, and not if the duskblade novas.

[Kafana]

I thought of a related question which suits this thread and that is: Does the current tier system use average optimizations and accessibility to all items (as if there was a magic item store that sells everything when you need it, not counting perhaps the artifacts)?

[Dunsparce]

Duskblade can swift cast a few times per day, so it can use True Strike as a swift action, Although only 4 times a day at level 20. It can also use the ability with any other standard action spells they have

[Psyren]

More than that - they just need lesser quicken rods.

[Gnaeus]

I thought of a related question which suits this thread and that is: Does the current tier system use average optimizations and accessibility to all items (as if there was a magic item store that sells everything when you need it, not counting perhaps the artifacts)?

No. Classes that are actually item independent are ranked higher on the tier system. If you look at the tests that are used to rank classes, some of them are easily passed with gear (like flight items). Heck, if you assume that any character can get any gear they need as if there were a magic item mart, pretty much every class with UMD winds up at or above tier 3, because Expert with UMD + enough scrolls and partially charged wands is actually pretty darn close to a wizard, or at least a sorcerer.

[Kafana]

No. Classes that are actually item independent are ranked higher on the tier system. If you look at the tests that are used to rank classes, some of them are easily passed with gear (like flight items). Heck, if you assume that any character can get any gear they need as if there were a magic item mart, pretty much every class with UMD winds up at or above tier 3, because Expert with UMD + enough scrolls and partially charged wands is actually pretty darn close to a wizard, or at least a sorcerer.

But during character creation you are allowed in general access to all items when creating starting gear, right?

[Story]

Yes but you'll quickly run out and there's no way to get more, since the Monks will have snapped up everything first.

[MeeposFire]

I thought of a related question which suits this thread and that is: Does the current tier system use average optimizations and accessibility to all items (as if there was a magic item store that sells everything when you need it, not counting perhaps the artifacts)?

No the tier system assumes that you are using the same level of optimization, item use, and everything else across all the classes.

Now it can break down at the very extremes but those extremes are exceedingly rare and is so different from the standard game that you would need to rethink everything (think a no magic item world the artificer would suck assuming it also meant he could not make magic items too, or in a world where you could get any and all items for free even the commoner would be as powerful as a wizard).

For any reasonable or realistic use of magic items in a campaign the tiers hold pretty well.

[Gnaeus]

No the tier system assumes that you are using the same level of optimization, item use, and everything else across all the classes.

For any reasonable or realistic use of magic items in a campaign the tiers hold pretty well.

Above statement is untrue. Take a look at any "why low tier class X is in its tier" and you will see lots of statements like "How does a fighter deal with flying or incorporeal opponents?" or the Rogue's supposed inability to sneak attack undead or constructs, or the Beguiler's alleged weakness against things that are immune to mind affecting. All of these things will be quickly solved in any game with a magic mart. And if you say "But the rogue or beguiler could have a wand, or the fighter could have boots of flying" the answer is "This is class X fallacy. Any class could solve that challenge with cherrypicked gear. Only the Tier whatever could do it solely by virtue of their class features." This is the actual unspoken reason why warblade is in tier 3 not tier 4 with the barbarian. Both have little to offer the team besides combat prowess, but the warblade can battle opponents with strikes and stances that would take specific gear for the barbarian to go after.

Every single class in tier 1 and 2 has the following 2 characteristics. 1. They are mostly gear independent. They can cover gear they lack with their powers. AND 2. If they need gear, they can make it themselves.
Almost every class in tier 4 and 5 are the opposite of those 2 statements (Warlock and to a lesser extent warmage being the exceptions). Tier 3s split the difference, being able to generally operate without gear, but having weaknesses that they will want specific gear to fix.

The tier system assumes that characters will have some gear. Everyone gets weapons and armor, their spellbooks and holy symbols and lockpicks. But does the tier system assume that a 12th level fighter will have the gear you would put on a 12th level fighter? No. And maybe it shouldn't. That is DM dependent of course. He can't make it.


For any reasonable or realistic use of magic items in a campaign the tiers hold pretty well.

In ANY thread that starts out with "I plan to run a game with low or no magic and no magic marts", the first and most common response is that such a game widens the pre-existing gap between the haves (casters) and the have-nots (melee).

[Optimator]

Yes but you'll quickly run out and there's no way to get more, since the Monks will have snapped up everything first.

Haha! Zing!

[Lans]

There's also level feats to account for. They give every character access to flight and junk.

[MeeposFire]

Above statement is untrue. Take a look at any "why low tier class X is in its tier" and you will see lots of statements like "How does a fighter deal with flying or incorporeal opponents?" or the Rogue's supposed inability to sneak attack undead or constructs, or the Beguiler's alleged weakness against things that are immune to mind affecting. All of these things will be quickly solved in any game with a magic mart. And if you say "But the rogue or beguiler could have a wand, or the fighter could have boots of flying" the answer is "This is class X fallacy. Any class could solve that challenge with cherrypicked gear. Only the Tier whatever could do it solely by virtue of their class features." This is the actual unspoken reason why warblade is in tier 3 not tier 4 with the barbarian. Both have little to offer the team besides combat prowess, but the warblade can battle opponents with strikes and stances that would take specific gear for the barbarian to go after.

Every single class in tier 1 and 2 has the following 2 characteristics. 1. They are mostly gear independent. They can cover gear they lack with their powers. AND 2. If they need gear, they can make it themselves.
Almost every class in tier 4 and 5 are the opposite of those 2 statements (Warlock and to a lesser extent warmage being the exceptions). Tier 3s split the difference, being able to generally operate without gear, but having weaknesses that they will want specific gear to fix.

The tier system assumes that characters will have some gear. Everyone gets weapons and armor, their spellbooks and holy symbols and lockpicks. But does the tier system assume that a 12th level fighter will have the gear you would put on a 12th level fighter? No. And maybe it shouldn't. That is DM dependent of course. He can't make it.



In ANY thread that starts out with "I plan to run a game with low or no magic and no magic marts", the first and most common response is that such a game widens the pre-existing gap between the haves (casters) and the have-nots (melee).

No you are misunderstanding on what I am trying to say.

1. The list does assume that everybody has access to the same level of equipment, optimization, and player skill. To do otherwise adds another factor influencing the results which you don't want in that listing.

Yes in fact higher tier characters need items less and lower tiers need them more. Yes a lower tier character can try to cover his weaknesses with items (such as a fighter with an item to let him fly) but remember that at the same time (since we assume that the relative wealth and item access) the higher tier character can get the same item and use his class abilities for other powerful things or forgo buying that item and get a different potentially better item instead. Even with greater wealth higher tier characters still come out ahead due to their class though it may not be as obvious.

Indeed the list avoids using specific items, builds, and the like and that makes sense that is too specific for what it is trying to do. My statement never said anything that items were being used directly in the tiers discussion. In fact my statement is a rebuke of that as the tiers avoids using specific items and so one must work with the idea that all classes have access to similar wealth and item access (which of course levels out in that area of the classes and thus leaves only class features as being relevant top the discussion). Considering that the tier list avoids things that are very specific to a particular campaign money has to be removed as a factor so you have to assume that everybody has similar access to stuff.

The only way items really mess with things is if you really change the rules on them. For instance you come up with a way to ensure that higher tier characters get less stuff than lower tier characters for real (in older D&D this would be similar to giving the fighter the ultimate awesome sword and the wizard gets a wand of fire woo) or if you go to the ultimate extremes.

In those extremes if you go with no items what so ever then mundane classes get screwed harder than even these tiers suggest and the upper tiers shine even brighter. If you go with close to unlimited money and free access to all magical items (don't really see that but let us assume for a moment that you did) then everybody starts looking a lot like tier 1s since you can do anything and in this case do it cheaply (which is normally a factor when considering tiers). However even in that situation tiers 1 are still better than the rest, they are just not quite as obvious since everybody else can do so much more. However if you notice that in this conversation nothing is really referencing class so even at this extreme all it does is make what class you are less relevant to the discussion hence another reason why item use is kind of discounted.

[Shinken]

More than that - they just need lesser quicken rods.
That woud restrict them to light shields, but it's not a bad option.
Of course, Warlocks can do the same.

[HaikenEdge]

Tier system is fine. It's just a guideline for newer DMs and players so they can better understand the power balance of their party.

Why has half this thread devolved into a Warlock vs Duskblade damage output argument? As far as I can tell, the tier system has nothing to do with specific builds, and more about how each class is in general, and how versatile they are.

[Shinken]

Why has half this thread devolved into a Warlock vs Duskblade damage output argument? As far as I can tell, the tier system has nothing to do with specific builds, and more about how each class is in general, and how versatile they are.
Then please point out what a duskblade can do that a warlock can't.

[Tar Palantir]

That woud restrict them to light shields, but it's not a bad option.
Of course, Warlocks can do the same.

Technically they can't. MM rods apply MM feats to spells, not SLAs.

[HaikenEdge]

Then please point out what a duskblade can do that a warlock can't.

Know more than 12 spells (effectively what invocations are). Cast in heavier armor investing feat investment. Buff allies' physical ability scores. Engage in ranged or melee combat with no significant investment beyond treasure. Use Metamagic-related stuff (Warlocks use SLAs, so they need meta-SLA stuff, of the Sudden line of feats, which are specifically listed in CArc).

While Warlocks theoretically have a wider array of invocations to choose from that can do more, in practice, warlocks are usually more niche characters, due to their restrictive number of invocations known and the likely need to synergize their abilities.

[Chronos]

A duskblade can learn more spells, true, but most of their spells are just blast, blast, and more blast. They're not all that different from warmages, which are generally accepted to be Tier 4.

[Squirrel_Dude]

Every class that isn't in the original posting has been added and debated and re-added a hundred times over by now across various threads. A number are still hotly debated to this day (like Warblade and Healer) so codifying them in an "update" would just reopen all those wounds.

And if you add Pathfinder it just gets wackier as Advanced Class Guide is all set to dump 6 more classes and several dozen archetypes in our laps for classification too.Hell, the APG was released 4 years ago, and we're still not entirely sure what should be done with archetypes and subclasses.

[HaikenEdge]

A duskblade can learn more spells, true, but most of their spells are just blast, blast, and more blast. They're not all that different from warmages, which are generally accepted to be Tier 4.

Even if you remove all the spells that directly (and only) deal damage, here's a list of all the spells Duskblades have at their disposal (spoilered for length)

Detect Magic: Detects spells and magic items within 60 ft.
Dancing Lights: Creates torches or other lights.
Flare: Dazzles one creature (-1 on attack rolls).
Ghost Sound: Figment sounds.
Touch of Fatigue: Touch attack fatigues target.
Lesser Deflect: Gain a deflection bonus of +1/3 levels (max +5) against one attack.
Resist Energy: Ignores 10 (or more) points of damage/attack from specified energy type.
Obscuring Mist: Fog surrounds you.
Stand: Subject stands up from prone.
True Strike: +20 on your next attack roll.
Rouse: Awakens creatures in area.
Bigby's Tripping Hand: Hand trips subject.
Color Spray: Knocks unconscious, blinds, and/or stuns 1d6 weak creatures.
Cause Fear: One creature of 5 HD or less flees for 1d4 rounds.
Ray of Enfeeblement: Ray deals 1d6 +1 per two levels Str penalty.
Expeditious Retreat: Your speed* increases by 30 ft.
Jump: Subject gets bonus on Jump checks.
Magic Weapon: Weapon gains +1 bonus.
Swift Expeditious Retreat: Your speed increases by 30 ft. for 1 round (swift).
Deflect: Gain bonus to AC for one attack.
Dimension Hop: Teleport subject short distance.
See Invisibility: Reveals invisible creatures or objects.
Sure Strike: Gain +1 bonus/3 levels on next attack.
Touch of Idiocy: Subject takes 1d6 points of Int, Wis, and Cha damage.
Invisibility: Subject is invisible for 1 min./level or until it attacks.
Swift Invisibility: Invisibility lasts 1 round (swift).
Ghoul Touch: Paralyzes one subject, which exudes stench.
Animalistic Power: Subject gains +2 bonus to Str, Dex, and Con.
Bear's Endurance: Subject gains +4 to Con for 1 min./level.
Bull's Strength: Subject gains +4 to Str for 1 min./level.
Cat's Grace: Subject gains +4 to Dex for 1 min./level.
Darkvision: See 60 ft. in total darkness.
Fly: Subject gains a fly speed of 60 ft.
Spider Climb: Grants ability to walk on walls and ceilings.
Swift Fly: This spell functions like fly except for 1 round (swift).
Dispelling Touch: Dispel one magical effect on touched subject.
Energy Aegis: Subject gains resistance 20 against one energy type for one attack.
Protection from Energy: Absorb 12 points/level of damage from one kind of energy.
Regroup: Teleports nearby allies to your side.
Ray of Exhaustion: Ray makes subject exhausted.
Crown Of Might: Gain +2 Strength, discharge to gain +8 bonus for 1 round.
Crown of Protection: +1 deflection bonus to AC, +1 resistance bonus on saves; discharge to gain +4 for 1 round.
Halt: Subject's feet become stuck to the ground.
Dispel Magic: Cancels magical spells and effects.
Dimension Door: Teleports you short distance.
Toxic Weapon: Coats weapon with poison.
Fire Shield: Creatures attacking you take fire damage; you're protected from heat or cold.
Interposing Hand: Hand provides cover against one opponent.
Shout: Deafens all within cone and deals 5d6 sonic damage.
Enervation: Subject gains 1d4 negative levels.
Slashing Dispel: As dispel magic, but creatures take damage for spells dispelled.
Hold Monster: As hold person, but any creature.
Clenched Fist: Large hand provides cover, pushes, or attacks your foes.
Sonic Shield: +4 deflection bonus to AC; 1d8 sonic damage and push back creatures that hit you in melee.
Waves of Fatigue: Several targets become fatigued.
Disintegrate: Makes one creature or object vanish.

As you can see from the list, the Duskblade still has a lot of abilities at their disposal.

[nedz]

k just want to point some stuff out,

duskblade
-full bab
-two good saves
-d8 hd
-2+int skills
-int based casting (getting more bonus spells and increasing save dc gets more skills)
-21 first level+ spells
-decent selection of cantrips both in cantrip form and in a class ability
-narrower spell selection

Warlock
-3/4 bab
-one good save
-d6 hd
-2+int skills
-cha based "casting" (dump stat, that they don't actually need to be very effective, so eh?)
-12 invocations
-detect magic at will
-versatile invocation selection
-umd

as a whole the duskblade has a better or equal base everywhere, then you have the more of your spell list vs a more versatile list thing, though the duskblade has almost twice as many "spells" as a warlock.
finally you can't ignore the warlock's umd.

on skill lists they both have fairly similar and limited lists, note worthy differences includes warlock's umd, and duskblade's all knowledge skills.

But many Warlock Invocations do two jobs.

Anyway they are very different classes. Warlocks are best at infiltration/counter infiltration whilst Duskblades are best at combat type stuff.

Apples v Oranges.

[NeoPhoenix0]

But many Warlock Invocations do two jobs.

Anyway they are very different classes. Warlocks are best at infiltration/counter infiltration whilst Duskblades are best at combat type stuff.

Apples v Oranges.

agreed, a lot people use the duskblade's skill points to make him a walking library anyway

edit: now i want to see if i can make a literal walking library to turn into a duskblade... might have to settle for bookshelf