Largest possible number of cohorts

[Raunchel]

Hello everyone,

I was thinking about leadership and cohorts earlier today and came to wonder what the maximum number of cohorts or cohort-like characters that a character can get is. Using any combination of feats/classes or whatever else might help.

[Segev]

2 from Thrallherd
mutually exclusive with Leadership
1 from Undead Leadership
neither mutually exclusive with Leadership nor Thrallherd
1 animal companion from Druid
1 animal companion from Ranger or mount from Paladin
not stated to stack with druid levels, so it's separate
can't get enough levels of both Ranger and Paladin and have both while still having 10 levels of Thrallherd for the second one there
1 from Wild Cohort
1 from Dragon Cohort

That's all I can think of. ...and, actually, you COULD barely squeeze 8 levels of ranger+paladin in if you went druid 1, psion 1 (practiced manifester), Thrallherd 10, paladin 4, ranger 4. So 1 more then.

That's at least 7-8 cohorts/companions by level 20, though several of them will be pathetic and your build overall will be rather weak.

[Darrin]

1) At ECL 12, take Dragon Cohort (Draconomicon).
2) Pick a Young White Dragon (9HD).
3) As the White Dragon's 9th HD feat, have it take Dragon Cohort to pick up another Young White Dragon.
4) Rinse & Repeat until your dragon army blots out the sky.

[sleepyphoenixx]

It's not all that hard to get a sufficient leadership score on a level 6 character for him to get level 6 followers. So by RAW, you can have pretty much unlimited level 6 minions and a whole lot of lower level ones.

If you restrict yourself to direct subordinates of one character Segev has mentioned everything except familiars. You can get one any number of ways and additional ones for a dragonmag feat.

Another option is the creation of intelligent constructs which is only limited by time and WBL. The way to do so is the Rudimentary Intelligence trait (Dr327) which adds an int score to a construct equal to half the CL of the creator, for 8000gp. Additional HD cost 5000gp so with enough money and time you can build your own personal army of superintelligent epic constructs of your choice (and they'll still be absolutely loyal to you).

[Segev]

Segev has mentioned everything except familiars. You can get one any number of ways and additional ones for a dragonmag feat.

Right! Familiars! There's not room in the build I suggested for one, but you do get a psicrystal for a feat, since you're already going Thrallherd.

A familiar...you'd need to slip an arcane level in there somewhere.

[Darrin]

It's not all that hard to get a sufficient leadership score on a level 6 character for him to get level 6 followers. So by RAW, you can have pretty much unlimited level 6 minions and a whole lot of lower level ones.


Doesn't work with Leadership due to diminishing returns. DMG p. 106:

"Regardless of a character’s Leadership score, he can only recruit a cohort who is two or more levels lower than himself."

A 6th level character can only get a 4th level cohort, and 4th isn't high enough to take the Leadership feat. You can repeat the Recursive Sidekick trick with higher levels, but you lose -2 ECL each time. However, Dragon Cohort can be repeated indefinitely, because an ECL 12 cohort dropped down to ECL 9 can still take the Dragon Cohort feat (so long as it has at least 9 HD).

[Segev]

A 6th level character can only get a 4th level cohort, and 4th isn't high enough to take the Leadership feat.

He specified 6th-level followers. You need a Leadership score of 21+ to have at least 1 6th level follower. Oddly, there is nothing preventing a 6th level character who can manage a leadership score that high from having a 6th level follower. And if said 6th level follower uses the same techniques to achieve a leadership score of 21+, he can also have one (or more) 6th level followers...

[sleepyphoenixx]

You can get a 6th level paladin special mount from the first level of the Ranger Knight PrC (Dr317). Add in the various Theurgic whatever feats from Dr325 to make them useful, throw in a level of wizard for a familiar and spend any leftover feats on extra familiar.
Or use Arcane Hierophant and Devoted Tracker to add Special Mount, Animal Companion and Familiar benefits to the same creature, which is probably more useful.

The biggest drain is Thrallherd since it's 10 levels that don't contribute to anything but the psicrystal. Is there a psionic equivalent to Theurgic Bond somewhere?

[Segev]

You can get a 6th level paladin special mount from the first level of the Ranger Knight PrC (Dr317).Does that provide a mount in addition to the Ranger's animal companion? If not, this reduces the number of "cohorts" you've got by 1.

It would free up 3 levels, if it let you keep both companion and mount, though!


Or use Arcane Hierophant to add Special Mount, Animal Companion and Familiar benefits to the same creature, which is probably more useful.More useful, but not in keeping with the challenge, which is to get as many (not the best) cohorts as you can. Making them useful is great, of course, but the challenge is quantity before quality.


The biggest drain is Thrallherd since it's 10 levels that don't contribute to anything but the psicrystal. Is there a psionic equivalent to Theurgic Bond somewhere?Actually it's giving you a 2nd cohort at level 10 of Thrallherd; I'd only splash one level (or take the Leadership feat) if not for that. You have to have Psion or another class that gives you Mindlink and a manifester level to qualify for Thrallherd, so you get the psicrystal prereqs off of that.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Does that provide a mount in addition to the Ranger's animal companion? If not, this reduces the number of "cohorts" you've got by 1.

It would free up 3 levels, if it let you keep both companion and mount, though!
Ranger Knight doesn't provide an animal companion at all. It doesn't require LG alignment though so you can combine it with druid levels for an animal companion and better spells.


More useful, but not in keeping with the challenge, which is to get as many (not the best) cohorts as you can. Making them useful is great, of course, but the challenge is quantity before quality.
If quantity is all you want rebuking/commanding should be mentioned, too. Even without further enhancements every turning pool adds a seperate HD equal to yours of minions.
It depends on your DM if items that affect Turn/Rebuke Undead also affect other turning pools. If yes, the available resources easily let you command 10+ additional 20 HD creatures.
Even if not a level 20 character gets a number of 10 HD cohorts (2 per non-undead turning pool) and several stronger undead ones who can easily exceed your own HD.

A sufficiently optimized rebuker can command two epic creatures per turning pool at level 20 with the right feats and equipment.


Actually it's giving you a 2nd cohort at level 10 of Thrallherd; I'd only splash one level (or take the Leadership feat) if not for that. You have to have Psion or another class that gives you Mindlink and a manifester level to qualify for Thrallherd, so you get the psicrystal prereqs off of that.

What i meant is that it adds nothing to the strength of your other companions and familiars. Psicrystals and familiars don't really need much to be useful but for animal companions and special mounts every non-contributing HD hurts. Having 10 of them makes those features pretty much useless.

[Jeff the Green]

I'd personally exclude the infinite level 6 followers trick because they don't act like cohorts; they don't improve as you gain levels. However, you can technically get infinite cohorts as the DMG has rules for just giving them to your players. Ignoring that, though:

Druid animal companion and Paladin mount are mutually exclusive unless you go into Dragon Magazine.

Warforged Wizard 1/Artificer 5/Ardent 1/Thrallherd 10/Beastmaster 4 gets a familiar, a weapon familiar, a psicrystal, two thralls, and two animal companions in addition to all the ones available by feats.

[Forrestfire]

Technically, you have have a limitless number of cohorts:


Cohorts are loyal servants who follow a particular character or sometimes a group of characters. They are hired by or seek out a PC or PCs, and they work out a deal agreeable to both parties so that the NPC works for the characters ... There are no limitations on the class, race, or gender of a character's cohorts, nor limits to the number of cohorts who can be employed by a character.

[A.A.King]

If we count Animal Companions or creatures like that as Cohorts, then shouldn't we replace 9 levels Trallherd with 9 levels of Beast Heart adept. That way you trade away 1 Thrall for 3 Monstrous Companions.

[Segev]

Where do you get the idea that paladin mounts and druid companions are mutually exclusive? (Not saying you're necessarily wrong, but I cannot think of any such rule.)

[A.A.King]

Where do you get the idea that paladin mounts and druid companions are mutually exclusive? (Not saying you're necessarily wrong, but I cannot think of any such rule.)

Druid has to be Neutral X or X Neutral and Paladin has to be Lawful Good and you lose your features if you change alignment.

[Segev]

Druid has to be Neutral X or X Neutral and Paladin has to be Lawful Good and you lose your features if you change alignment.

::facepalm:: You are absolutely right! You would need to slip into Grey Guard to be able to go LN to pull that off.

[dextercorvia]

If you convert your apprentice feat to mentor, and get your apprentice to 5th level they become a cohort.

So, a LG Wizard1/Ardent1/Paladin5/Thrallherd10/X3

with Apprentice Spellcaster, Animal Companion Wizard Variant, Practiced Spellcaster, Practiced Manifester (for prereqs), Obtain Familiar, Wild Cohort, and Psicrystal Affinity gets:

Animal Companion, Familiar, Psicrystal, Paladin Mount, Wild Cohort, Apprentice Cohort, and two Thralls. I would rule that Undead Leadership and Dragon Cohort don't mix with Thrallherd since they both say something like "as leadership". But, if those apply, go LE and do Paladin of Tyranny instead.

If Dragon Magazine is on the table, you can just take Extra Familiar a bunch of times, and then take your favorite Familiar feat, Improved, Draconic, etc.

[Jeff the Green]

If we count Animal Companions or creatures like that as Cohorts, then shouldn't we replace 9 levels Trallherd with 9 levels of Beast Heart adept. That way you trade away 1 Thrall for 3 Monstrous Companions.

Okay, so Wizard 1/Artificer 5/Psion 1/Druid 1/Beast Heart Adept 9/Beastmaster 4. Mentor, Undead Leadership, Leadership, Dragon Cohort, Animal Cohort, and Psicrystal Affinity. One familiar, one psicrystal, three cohorts, one weapon familiar, one dragon cohort, one wild cohort, three beast companions, one urban companion, and two animal companions. Of these, familiar, weapon familiar, beast companion, urban companion, psicrystal, and animal companions are at least partly based on class level, though familiar, psicrystal, and urban companion get most of their benefits from character level, and the beast companions are nearly as powerful as they could be.

It's also not as useless in combat as it could be.

[Vaz]

Human Psion 2 can get the most.
ECL1; Psicrystal Affinity
H; Improved Psicrystal
P; Improved Psicrystal
F1; Improved Psicrystal
F2; Improved Psicrystal

= Psicrystal with an effective Psicrystal level of 6. It picks up Leadership as its 6th level feat, gaining a 4th level Psion cohort, with exactly the same feats, +1 Improved Psicrystal (Effective Manifester level of 9, meaning it has access to Leadership for a 9th level Psion cohort, with exactly the same feats, +1 Improved Psicrystal, etc, etc, all the way up to whatever level you like, ad infinitum.

[The Insaniac]

Instead of going Thrallherd, you can go with Dreadmaster from Faiths and Pantheons. You get two cohorts and it stacks with leadership.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Human Psion 2 can get the most.
ECL1; Psicrystal Affinity
H; Improved Psicrystal
P; Improved Psicrystal
F1; Improved Psicrystal
F2; Improved Psicrystal

= Psicrystal with an effective Psicrystal level of 6. It picks up Leadership as its 6th level feat, gaining a 4th level Psion cohort, with exactly the same feats, +1 Improved Psicrystal (Effective Manifester level of 9, meaning it has access to Leadership for a 9th level Psion cohort, with exactly the same feats, +1 Improved Psicrystal, etc, etc, all the way up to whatever level you like, ad infinitum.

Improved Psicrystal doesn't increase HD. It just makes the Psion coun't as a level higher to determine special abilities. It always has the same HD as the master, so a 4th level Psion always has a 4HD Psicrystal.

[Jeff the Green]

Instead of going Thrallherd, you can go with Dreadmaster from Faiths and Pantheons. You get two cohorts and it stacks with leadership.

It's a pain to get into, though, needing 3rd-level divine spells. You also have to go 9 levels to get just one cohort, and 10 for the second. Plus you want psion anyway, so you can get a psicrystal.


Human Psion 2 can get the most.
ECL1; Psicrystal Affinity
H; Improved Psicrystal
P; Improved Psicrystal
F1; Improved Psicrystal
F2; Improved Psicrystal

= Psicrystal with an effective Psicrystal level of 6. It picks up Leadership as its 6th level feat, gaining a 4th level Psion cohort, with exactly the same feats, +1 Improved Psicrystal (Effective Manifester level of 9, meaning it has access to Leadership for a 9th level Psion cohort, with exactly the same feats, +1 Improved Psicrystal, etc, etc, all the way up to whatever level you like, ad infinitum.

Even if this worked, cohort chaining is available to any of these builds. In mine, the psicrystal, undead cohort, leadership cohort, apprentice, dragon cohort, and three beast companions can pick up the feats, and the undead and regular cohorts can take class levels to (mostly) duplicate your build.