Mind Flayer Question

[Nebulious]

Ever since I got Lords of Madness two Januarys ago, I've been in love with Illithids. I've finally had an oppertunity to introduce them into my campaign, but I suddenly realized a senario may occur that has no easy answer.

The party of six's raptoran bard enjoys using dominate spells and the like, particularly a suppliment spell called puppeteer. I don't have the book it's from at the moment, but if the senario is possible is irrelvaent, since there's more than one way to skin a cat.

My question is that if a mind flayer is either dominated or tricked (or both!) into eating another illithid's brain, what on earth would the effect be? A brain is a brain, so I imangine it's phsiologically possible. According to LoM, the most important thing to happen to a mind flayer is for its mind to be "melded" with an elder brain after death.

Does this mean that the canabolism of brains is the ultimate taboo for illithids? What would the phycological effects of realizing they comitted such an act? Could there even be a physical effect? What do you think would happen?

[The_Snark]

Well, it wouldn't provide any sustenance for them, since the whole reason illithids need brains is because theirs don't produce essential hormones and the like. Aside from that, it seems physiologically possible.

Psychologically? It depends, but I'm inclined to say that the illithid in question knows perfectly well that its actions weren't the product of its own decisions, so it wouldn't feel terribly guilty. Illithids are very familiar with mind control, after all. The community and elder brain might end up exiling them for it, but they might not; it seems like it's up to the elder brain in question. This probably hasn't happened very much, since illithids tend to dominate others rather than the other way around, so I don't think there's a single standard answer.

[cupkeyk]

Actually, it should be pretty much the norm. If you eat another illithid's brain, particularly an ally's, that has died in battle you are incorporating it into your own so that you may eventually and safely bring it to the elder brain with your own incorporation.

[martyboy74]

Actually. they have a Brain Jar(item) for that explicit purpose.

[Nebulious]

Thanks for the input so far.

Like Martyboy pointed out, they really take considerable pains to bring the brain fully intact to the elder brain. My take on it is that the illithid would end up repulsed enough to fall prone and vomit the brain. If it still survived after a couple of rouds, it'd planeshift away. I think a 'Flayer with that kind of phycological scar could make a great returning villian.

[cupkeyk]

What? Why? Why is cannibalism psychologically traumatic to a Darwinian society of geniuses?

[EvilElitest]

Considering that mind flayers are like, one of the smartest creatures in most worlds, i don't think you need to worry. In theu unlikely situation where the bard does cast that spell, the flayer fails, and it is given that order, the victom flayer could just try to domonate the bard. If worst comes to worst, i think the living flayer, if he lives would view such an act as the surprime insult to their race and have massive numbers of flayers try to kill the party.
from,
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[martyboy74]

What? Why? Why is cannibalism psychologically traumatic to a Darwinian society of geniuses?
Mind Flayers believe that each personality becomes part of the Elder Brain (not actually true). Eating another flayer's brain is essentially denying that brain the immortality that it expects, and weakening your own Elder Brain. Therefore, eating another flayer's brain is like shooting yourself in the foot, which is definately not darwinian.

[The_Snark]

Just a note—if you're going to count it as that traumatic to an illithid, it qualifies for an act the illithid wouldn't normally do, giving it a second save against a Dominate and invalidating some lesser compulsions like charms.

Given the mind flayer's high Will save and impressive SR, it's unlikely that this will come up unless your PCs are pretty high level.

And I agree with you on the recurring villain point; an illithid forced by compulsion (by lesser races!) to perform an unthinkable act would want revenge. Lots of revenge. If it were exiled, its sanity could start to degenerate also, and it could grow obsessed. So if this does come up, make sure the illithid gets away if it can—it'd be a great returning antagonist.

[TheOOB]

Hmm, what would a mindflayer do to a wizard they dominated who formerly dominated them?

[Tor the Fallen]

There's a pretty good wikipedia entry on various torture methods. Now just add magic to it.

[Quietus]

I'd definately say that eating another illithid's brain counts as "going against their nature", given the illithid's preoccupation with ensuring every illithid brain possible goes into the Elder Brain. I imagine, however, in the rare circumstance that an illithid DID fail all those saves, and SR checks, etc, that it would later (assuming it survived) come back and attempt to make that person one of their thralls, then break the person's sanity by forcing them into cannibalism. Once their sanity is broken, it'd either make them into a new illithid (to replace the one they destroyed), or, if that isn't possible, throw'em into slave pits, make them fight it out ... possibly in a situation that gives an ironic twist. Let them loose of the domination, after they've been broken by being forced into cannibalism, then bring in someone related to one of the people that this particular bard ate, who wants revenge. Then sell tickets.

[UglyPanda]

I'd say it's no different from forcing someone to kill their buddies. Maybe a little less bad since mind flayers are unkind individuals. The Elder Brain only wants the brains of deceased as sustenance. It is only among other mind flayers that the incorporation legend persists. The truth is the elder brain fully absorbs the memories and knowledge of said mind flayer and not the personality or consciousness. So, I personally think they wouldn't care about the brain being intact and with their experience with thralls would just get mad at the bard and not anyone else. The easiest way to circumvent this problem is have a few of the stronger illithids use mind blank on the younger ones(Spell or power, it doesn't matter).

[henebry]

You're getting a hard time from the old pros here, but if you like the scenario you've outlined (MF is exiled and deeply scarred, becoming a recurring villain) then go with that for your campaign. It sounds like a great storyline, and it's certainly within your realm of discretion to decide that this is a violation of the worst MF taboo. So what if it doesn't fit some other DMs conception of cold and calculating MF society?

[Mewtarthio]

I'd say it's no different from forcing someone to kill their buddies. Maybe a little less bad since mind flayers are unkind individuals. The Elder Brain only wants the brains of deceased as sustenance. It is only among other mind flayers that the incorporation legend persists. The truth is the elder brain fully absorbs the memories and knowledge of said mind flayer and not the personality or consciousness. So, I personally think they wouldn't care about the brain being intact and with their experience with thralls would just get mad at the bard and not anyone else. The easiest way to circumvent this problem is have a few of the stronger illithids use mind blank on the younger ones(Spell or power, it doesn't matter).

The important thing is that the Dominated illithid, along with every other Ilithid in existance, believes that being incorporated into the Elder Brain is a form of immortality. The fact that they have all been decieved is irrelevant. It'd be like faking your own death and assuming that nobody will really mourn for you since you're not really dead.

[UglyPanda]

Not my point. My point is the elder brain wouldn't get pissed. The situation is no different from being killing your friend and eating him. Humans are edible, it's just not a good idea.

[squishycube]

It's not about the Elder Brain getting angry, but about the mind flayer you forced to eat another mind flayer's brain. And the Elder Brain could still get pissed, about a lesser creature dominating one of his minions, about one of his minions being weak, about getting an eaten brain, about the colour of his tank. There's lots of things to get angry about as an evil brain in a vat you know.

[martyboy74]

The Elder Brain wouldn't, but the flayer's friends sure would. Beside, they can't let any uppity humans think that they can do that!

[Woot Spitum]

May I direct you to page 62, of Lords of Madness, specifically the section on mind flayer internal anatomy? It states that the mind flayers whole body is basically an extended brain. Thus, a mind flayer could theoretically survive having its "main brain" extracted, although there is no official rule on it.

As far as the mind flayer being scarred by the experience of devouring a fellow illithid's brain, I would strongly reccomend against it. Part of the mind flayer's feel is that they are completely alien to human (or even humanoid) motivations and thought processes. They should not react to situations in even a remotely human manner.

[The_Snark]

Yeah... As I think I've said earlier, if I were going to go for this storyline, I wouldn't have the illithid be psychologically traumatized; I'd have the illithid in question be exiled for this act. The elder brain doesn't care all that much, but this is denying it sustenance, and it's got to keep up the pretense to its loyal community, after all.

Then the illithid blames the party for its exile... which is actually perfectly logical... and concocts several revenge plots to enthrall, consume, or torture to death the PCs. There is a wonderful item in Lords of Madness called a thought extruder, which is pretty much what I always imagined when I thought of illithid torture.