Critique my build!

[AttilaTheGeek]

I'm going to be joining a 20th-level campaign soon, and though I'm not sure exactly what the character generation details are going to be, I wanted to get some feedback on my build beforehand. My character is a servant of Bahamut, the LG deity of dragons, and my class levels are Sorcerer 4 / Paladin 2 / Dragon Disciple 4 / Eldritch Knight 10. The character gets 8th-level spells, CHA to saves, and BAB 17 with +4 untyped to strength from Dragon Disciple. I am of course taking the Draconic bloodline, but otherwise no Sorcerer or Paladin archetypes seem necessary.

I also have a tentative list of feats planned out, which I'd also like feedback on.
I have 14 feats: 10 from levels, 3 combat feats from Eldritch Knight, and one Draconic bloodline feat from Dragon Disciple.

Good feats: Improved Initiative
Metamagic feats: Quicken Spell, Persistent Spell (note that this is the Pathfinder persist, not the 3.5 persist), maybe Extend Spell or Empower Spell
Casting feats: Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration, Spell Focus: Conjuration, Superior Summoning, Augment Summoning
Combat feats: Power Attack, Arcane Armor Training, Arcane Armor Mastery
WBL feats: Craft Wondrous Item, maybe Craft Magic Arms and Armor



So, Playground, what do you think?

[bjoern]

Last I knew, sorcerers couldn't use quicken. I like paladin 2. Divine grace is awesome.

[Snowbluff]

Did you know you could skill 3 levels of Sorc by having a second level SLA?

Bjeorn, Quicken works with Sorcerers in PF, IIRC.

[AttilaTheGeek]

Last I knew, sorcerers couldn't use quicken. I like paladin 2. Divine grace is awesome.

I find that a majority of my builds start or end with Paladin 2 for exactly that reason :smallbiggrin:


Did you know you could skill 3 levels of Sorc by having a second level SLA?

I did not! I only need 1st-level arcane spells to qualify for DD, so I considered something like Sorcerer 1 / Paladin 2 / Heavens Oracle 1 (for Awesome Display and/or Coat of Many Stars revelations) / Fighter 1, but I decided I wanted the Sorcerer levels anyway so that I could get 8th-level spells by the end.

[Snowbluff]

Either way, it will get your into the build proper earlier.

[the clumsy bard]

Ok I have a couple of suggestions and questions.

1) Have you played pathfinder before? I ask this because most base classes have a capstone ability at level 20 that in most cases you would not get because in most case PCs never get there and if they do it is rare. You would have an opportunity to do this in this case.

2) You are going with a GISH concept, are you aware of the Magus (https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/classes/base-classes/magus) base class? it goes up to 6th level only, but they get neat abilities that allow you to channel spells through your weapon, magus arcanas which give you new abilities and spell combat, effectively 2 weapon fighting with sword and magic, aka fun. Also building off the level 20 capstone point a magus gets true magus.

3) If you are staying with your build. It will sound weird, but maybe take the arcane bloodline (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/bloodlines/bloodlines-from-paizo/arcane-bloodline) instead. It will net you the metamagic adept ability at 3rd level which will help you out with quickening spells and any other metamagic you might want.

Hopefully helpful, but I am aware of the fact the OP has an idea for the character.

[Snowbluff]

Quicken works with sorcerers in PF.

You need Sacred Geometry instead of Quicken Spell. With enough ranks, it becomes very easy to fall off the RNG.

[AttilaTheGeek]

Ok I have a couple of suggestions and questions.

1) Have you played pathfinder before? I ask this because most base classes have a capstone ability at level 20 that in most cases you would not get because in most case PCs never get there and if they do it is rare. You would have an opportunity to do this in this case.

2) You are going with a GISH concept, are you aware of the Magus (https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/classes/base-classes/magus) base class? it goes up to 6th level only, but they get neat abilities that allow you to channel spells through your weapon, magus arcanas which give you new abilities and spell combat, effectively 2 weapon fighting with sword and magic, aka fun. Also building off the level 20 capstone point a magus gets true magus.

Yes, I've played Pathfinder! This gish misses out on Spell Combat/Spellstrike, but instead gets higher-level casting, higher BAB, more hit points, and CHA to saves. I know that PrCing is usually bad, but I think in this point it definitely wins out over the base class. Besides, True Magus isn't all that fun anyway- it just means you don't have to waste time rolling Concentration checks that you were probably going to take anyway.


3) If you are staying with your build. It will sound weird, but maybe take the arcane bloodline (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/bloodlines/bloodlines-from-paizo/arcane-bloodline) instead. It will net you the metamagic adept ability at 3rd level which will help you out with quickening spells and any other metamagic you might want.

Arcane bloodline is indeed stronger than Draconic, but Dragon Disciple specifically requires the Draconic bloodline. I don't think Crossblooded is worth it in this case.


You need Sacred Geometry instead of Quicken Spell. With enough ranks, it becomes very easy to fall off the RNG.

That's probably a good idea. The consensus is that the follow-up feat to Sacred Geometry (the one that lets you use d8s) isn't worth it, right?

[Yanisa]

Quicken works with sorcerers in PF.
Yeah, errata right? Nowadays it's plainly in sight.

Quicken Spell (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/feats.html#_quicken-spell)

Special: You can apply the effects of this feat to a spell cast spontaneously, so long as it has a casting time that is not more than 1 full-round action, without increasing the spell's casting time.


You need Sacred Geometry instead of Quicken Spell. With enough ranks, it becomes very easy to fall off the RNG.
Yeah, just replace any metamagic with Sacred Geometry and you not only double your metamagic feats, you also prevent it takes up higher slots. Mathematical!

[grarrrg]

Did you know you could skill 3 levels of Sorc by having a second level SLA?I did not! I only need 1st-level arcane spells to qualify for DD, so I considered something like Sorcerer 1 / Paladin 2 / Heavens Oracle 1 (for Awesome Display and/or Coat of Many Stars revelations) / Fighter 1, but I decided I wanted the Sorcerer levels anyway so that I could get 8th-level spells by the end.

I think what Snowbluff tried to say is that with a _3rd_ level SLA (Aasimar>Daylight) you can get into Eldritch Knight as early as level 3.
Although in your case it would be level 4 after Paladin 2/Sorc 1.
Then you could freely mix Eldritch and DD.

Once you get to Paladin 2/Sorc 1/Eldritch 10/DD 4 you'd have to decide what to do with your last 3 levels.
+3 Sorc is pure casting and gets you a couple more Bloodline spells, but only +2 Bab and d6HD.
+3 DD is Bloodline spells, +2 CON, +2 Bab and d12HD, but you lose another Casting.

As far as other PrC's go, the other 2 that have 3/4 Bab AND Full Casting are Hellknight Signifier and Spherewalker.
Spherewalker is...clunky...requiring multiple "eh" feats to get into and not giving much in return.
Hellknight Signifier (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/e-h/hellknight-signifer) mainly just needs Arcane Armor Training Feat and being Lawful. This pays off at 2nd and 3rd when you get Arcane Armor Mastery and a straight up 5% reduction in Arcane Failure from armor.


The consensus is that the follow-up feat to Sacred Geometry (the one that lets you use d8s) isn't worth it, right?

Yes.
At low levels being able to roll a d8 _might_ help, but it also might hurt. And eventually it becomes a waste of a feat once you can auto-succeed with d6's anyway.

[AnonymousPepper]

Oh please for the love of God don't do Sacred Geometry. Unless you've got a program handy to do it yourself, it is the single worst gameplay-slowing mechanism I've ever seen. And if you do have such a thing handy, it becomes possibly the most broken first-party feat I've ever seen to boot, perhaps behind Dragonwrought.

Put it this way: it's so blatantly OP, my 3.PF Mailman Sorcerer - yes, I'm actually playing a Mailman, and he's a Dragonwrought Loredrake to boot - will not be taking it out of respect for the GM. That's how bad it is.

[Hamste]

Oh please for the love of God don't do Sacred Geometry. Unless you've got a program handy to do it yourself, it is the single worst gameplay-slowing mechanism I've ever seen. And if you do have such a thing handy, it becomes possibly the most broken first-party feat I've ever seen to boot, perhaps behind Dragonwrought.

Put it this way: it's so blatantly OP, my 3.PF Mailman Sorcerer - yes, I'm actually playing a Mailman, and he's a Dragonwrought Loredrake to boot - will not be taking it out of respect for the GM. That's how bad it is.

Don't worry people have done the math to show to show when you will always succeed, so now it is just op with or with out the dice program.

[grarrrg]

Oh please for the love of God don't do Sacred Geometry. Unless you've got a program handy to do it yourself, it is the single worst gameplay-slowing mechanism I've ever seen.

Actually, with how many Caster Levels he is likely to lose, he'll be able to auto-succeed at almost every level (except some of the early ones, but those are easy to figure out).
So as long as the DM accepts the Proven Auto Succeed Numbers (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?363930-Sacred-Geometry-and-Arithmancy&p=17879295&viewfull=1#post17879295) he need never _actually_ roll for the feat.


And if you do have such a thing handy, it becomes possibly the most broken first-party feat I've ever seen to boot, perhaps behind Dragonwrought.

Put it this way: it's so blatantly OP

Agree with you 100% here though.
Whoever designed it either
A: did NOT work out the actual numbers
B: LOVES him some Wizard

[Snowbluff]

Why not both? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgk-lA12FBk)