Intelligence, the new Charisma?

[Teapot Salty]

Hey guys. So, I see a lot of handbooks and the like saying that intelligence is pretty much the dump stat for a lot of classes. And I started thinking. Anyone who's played 3.5 for a while will no that charisma is pretty much the universal dump stat outside of charisma casters and the face. So am I correct in saying that the only classes that use intelligence are the ones that have direct class features based on them?

[Kurald Galain]

Yes, because dexterity adds to everything intelligence does and more (except knowledge skills, but it can generally be assumed that one of your teammates will cover for those). Then again, most 4E characters have three dump stats anyway, because they simply don't use those stats for anything.

[Inevitability]

Well, let's take a look at the PHB classes.

Cleric: Should dump either dexterity or intelligence. And since most people like initiative...
Fighter: Intelligence has no use at all. Charisma has a single use in an obscure, but still good, paragon path.
Paladin: Intelligence gives you nothing but a boost to Religion checks. Get the invoker/wizard to do those for you.
Ranger: Dexterity is better. In all cases.
Rogue: Cunning sneaks gain a few power riders, but otherwise it is a purely skill-based contest between being smart and being wise.
Warlock: Hey, a class that actually needs intelligence!
Warlord: Half the warlords need intelligence. The other half probably still wants it, though not as much.
Wizard: Intelligence primary.

So basically, three of the eight classes may use intelligence as a primary or secondary score. May.

Yeah, I'd consider it the new dumb stat.

[GPuzzle]

Dexteritry can swap with Intelligence every once in a while due to things like Battlewise, Imperious Majesty and Battle Intuition.

But yeah, 4e is more specific with everything.

[VeliciaL]

Dexteritry can swap with Intelligence every once in a while due to things like Battlewise, Imperious Majesty and Battle Intuition.

But yeah, 4e is more specific with everything.

Those feats are more generally used to avoid Dex/Int entirely though, by Paladins, Fighters, and the like. You're typically not taking the feat to invest in Intellect.

Dump stats are a bit different in 4E though, because you usually don't really get anything by investing in a stat that your class doesn't actively use. Many characters will have 2-3 clear dump stats. At minimum, they'll take a 13 for feat prereqs.

[GPuzzle]

Invokers and Avengers (except Pursuit) do use it as well as Warlocks and Bards. But yeah, it's corner cases, really.

Ultimately, Reflex is either "you're good at it" or "you suck at it". Will dodges it because that's where the nasty effects come from, and Fortitude is a mixed bag that's going to be somewhat average.

[Echobeats]

In 3.5E, did Int affect your numbers of trained skills and languages known? It does in SW Saga which I think is based on 4E 3.5E. If this rule was in D&D but was removed this would explain why Int is now useless for so many.

[Kimera757]

In 3.5E, did Int affect your numbers of trained skills and languages known? It does in SW Saga which I think is based on 4E. If this rule was in D&D but was removed this would explain why Int is now useless for so many.

Int affects skills known in 3rd Edition but not in 4th.

Unlike in 3rd Edition, all ability scores have inherent value in 4e, but that inherent value is just getting a decent NAD. Dexterity gives the same NAD boost as Int plus other boosts (eg Initiative), so it tends to come across as better.

Having said that, Int is about as valuable as Charisma for classes that don't need it. Knowledge skills are as important as social skills, and Reflex is important just like Will is important.

[Inevitability]

Having said that, Int is about as valuable as Charisma for classes that don't need it. Knowledge skills are as important as social skills, and Reflex is important just like Will is important.

Actually, Will is more important. Reflex attacks are often: 'take damage', which means your own capability to fight isn't hampered unless you drop below 0 HP. Will attacks, especially at higher levels, tend to carry Dazes, Stuns and Dominates with them, which will horribly screw up your turn even if you are at full HP.

[Sartharina]

Having said that, Int is about as valuable as Charisma for classes that don't need it. Knowledge skills are as important as social skills, and Reflex is important just like Will is important.I'm actually torn on this. WIS is better than CHA to get Will up (Much better than Reflex). CHA skills are better than INT skills if nobody else bothers with them, because they actually allow you to affect the world around you, but INT skills are better to be redundant with, because there's a chance the trained guy rolls a 3 and you roll an 18.

[Kurald Galain]

In 3.5E, did Int affect your numbers of trained skills and languages known?
Yes, and in 2E as well. Note that SW Saga is based on 3E, and 4E is based in part on SW Saga.

Unlike in 4th Edition, all ability scores have inherent value in 3e (Str => melee and encumbrance, Dex => AC and reflex and init, Con => HP and fort, Int => skill points, Wis => perception and will, Cha => social ability) although charisma is arguable.


Int is about as valuable as Charisma for classes that don't need it.
Which is to say, not at all. A class that doesn't have any int-based features will prioritize dex over int (since it helps with initiative, and dex skills tend to be better than int skills). Wis or Cha is a toss-up between perception/insight on the one hand, bluff/diplo/streetwise on the other. Aside from that, Superior Will is a feat pretty much every body wants by the time you get to paragon, and Superior Reflex really isn't.

[Inevitability]

Yes, and in 2E as well. Note that SW Saga is based on 3E, and 4E is based in part on SW Saga.

Unlike in 4th Edition, all ability scores have inherent value in 3e (Str => melee and encumbrance, Dex => AC and reflex and init, Con => HP and fort, Int => skill points, Wis => perception and will, Cha => social ability) although charisma is arguable.


Charisma is to be put high because Leadership, which everyone will pick up in some form if it's allowed.

[Echobeats]

Sorry, I meant to say I think SW Saga is based on 3.5E: just noticed my typo. Now fixed.


Note that SW Saga is based on 3E, and 4E is based in part on SW Saga.

I'd never realised 4E took stuff from Saga. But then, I don't know 3E, so I would have just assumed any similarities were drawn from 3E (or previous) and retained in 4E, rather than innovated in Saga and borrowed by 4E. Can you give any examples? Are static defences a Saga invention?