New player REALLY wants to play a monk...

[atemu1234]

In my group I tend to help my players make their characters (give them advice, help them pick classes, etc.) and we have a reasonably optimized group (no crazy builds, but no straight-class fighters either) and we just got a new player. This new player (as in, this is his experience with D20, period) wants to play a monk. I've told him it's a bad class, and I told him it'll wind up dead. He either doesn't understand or doesn't care, so what should I do? The rest of the party is optimized enough to handle what I'm throwing at them, but that monk is basically doomed.

[IAmTehDave]

Have him play an Unarmed variant Swordsage from Tome of Battle. It's like a monk, but it doesn't suck.

[(Un)Inspired]

Is your new players easy-going and mature enough to handle character death?

[Red Fel]

In my group I tend to help my players make their characters (give them advice, help them pick classes, etc.) and we have a reasonably optimized group (no crazy builds, but no straight-class fighters either) and we just got a new player. This new player (as in, this is his experience with D20, period) wants to play a monk. I've told him it's a bad class, and I told him it'll wind up dead. He either doesn't understand or doesn't care, so what should I do? The rest of the party is optimized enough to handle what I'm throwing at them, but that monk is basically doomed.

Let him play a Monk.

Yeah, I said it. Unless you plan to ban the class, let him play a Monk. Offer him advice in how to build it, races, templates, PrCs and feats, maybe show him a link to some guides. But as a rule, if a player wants to play an unoptimized class or character, and you've warned him, it's on his head.

Now, once his character has died horribly, without any told-you-so's, offer to let him roll up a new character in a more optimal class.

Some things, the player's just got to learn himself.

[illyahr]

Let him play a monk. Don't start this new player's D&D experience by telling him he can't do something because it's not what experienced players do. That's a quick way for them to hear "your idea is bad, mine is better" which will kill their gaming experience.

It's your job as DM to make sure everyone has a good time. If he honestly wants to play a monk, help him build it and then just run your campaign. It's as much about the social aspect as it is the mechanics of it all. As long as everyone has fun, there aren't any bad classes.

Edit: Ninja'd

[Seppo87]

-What are his stats?
-What sourcebooks are allowed?
-Is multiclassing allowed? What about PrCs?
-Alignment?
-Does he have a rough concept already about his fighting style? ("I want to be quick and deadly" "I want to be smart and cool" "I want to hit like a truck" etc)

Based on the answers, something might be done.

[TheIronGolem]

Let him play a Monk.

Yeah, I said it. Unless you plan to ban the class, let him play a Monk. Offer him advice in how to build it, races, templates, PrCs and feats, maybe show him a link to some guides. But as a rule, if a player wants to play an unoptimized class or character, and you've warned him, it's on his head.

Now, once his character has died horribly, without any told-you-so's, offer to let him roll up a new character in a more optimal class.

Some things, the player's just got to learn himself.

I agree with this advice, but for a very different reason.

Playing a monk is a mechanically poor choice, but it's not an inevitable death sentence for your character, and certainly not one that you deserve for taking up a lousy class. Instead, you should see this as an imperative to fix the Monk before letting a newbie use it. As you're a Playgrounder I'm going to assume you already have half a dozen fixes in mind already, but if you don't there are plenty to be found over in Homebrew. Pick the ones that seem right to you and throw 'em in; you can hardly make the Monk any worse, after all.

Do make sure the player understands that he's playing with a houseruled character, though; you wouldn't want to set him up for disappointment at some other table in the future.

[Kesnit]

One other thing to keep in mind... His problems (and hence your problems) are going to start before he gets killed. He's likely going to be frustrated.

You didn't say what the rest of the party is playing, but I'm guessing chances are they are all built in a way to be able to handle multiple types of encounters (social as well as combat). Since your new player is so new, his introduction to D&D is going to be what he sees from you. If it starts off with him sitting around for hours because the group is doing social things, you risk driving him away because there won't be anything he can contribute. If you do a combat, he either does nothing because he can't, or tries to do something and dies. Either social or combat, it can look like you are out to get him/don't want him there/etc.

Put another way, it's well known around here that Monk is a crappy class. (Great flavor - I love them. Poorly designed.) However, your player doesn't know that. So what he's going to see is that he joined an established game, and the DM clearly didn't want him there, since you either ignored him or targeted him unfairly. ("No one else was stuck in the cloud, unable to move or attack. Everyone else got to do things.")

I hate bringing up problems without being able to recommend solutions, but in this case, I'm going to have to because I can't think of an answer.

Edit: All of this is assuming you don't give him a houseruled Monk fix.

[kellbyb]

Have him play an Unarmed variant Swordsage from Tome of Battle. It's like a monk, but it doesn't suck.

Seconded. Swordsage allows you to pull off all sorts of cool monk stuff while remaining effective. It's a really fun class.

[(Un)Inspired]

Honestly the monk, if played the right way is probably the strongest class in the game.

Just show him that he can take cross-class ranks in UMD and sell him a bunch of partially charged wands.

[Gavinfoxx]

Ask him, without looking at classes, what he wants to do?

Does he want to fight with his fists?
Does he want to fight with okinawan peasant weapons?
Does he want to be a brawler?
Does he want to be a mystic eastern unarmed martial artist?
What does he want to be good at?
What sorts of abilities does he see himself using?
How does he want his character to contribute when a monster goes raaar?
What sorts of things does he want to be good at outside of combat?
Does he see the character wearing armor?
Is there a particular fantasy or fictional character he wants to model?

[OldTrees1]

If a player wants to play an X, it is never a good idea to say "No, you will play Y which is identical to me but significantly different to you".

So if the player wants to play a Monk, it is not a good idea to force them to play an unarmed Swordsage. If and only if the player merely wanted to play an unarmed fighter and was not phased by unreadied maneuvers, then it would be appropriate to give them unarmed Swordsage instead.


What you probably want at this point is optimization advice that will help the Monk build end up with reasonable versatility and power without gaining an OP level of power. This forum can help with this. I can't help much personally since my specialty is Tier "3" Fighters. However I do have some insight.


Evasive Reflexes[Feat, Tome of Battle]

You can 5ft step instead of using an Attack of Opportunity
Karmic Strike[Feat, Complete Warrior]

-4 AC, You get an Attack of Opportunity if hit with a melee attack

Cobra Straps[1,400gp Magic Item Compendium pg201]

As a free action, gain a 5ft step after an unarmed attack at the end of a charge
Spirit Lion Totem Ex-Barbarian 1[Complete Champion]

You may full attack at the end of a charge

Sparring Dummy of the Master[30,000gp Arms and Equipment Guide pg 137]

Your 5ft steps can be 10ft steps. Sell Sparring Dummy for 30,000gp

Martial Monk[Dragon Magazine]

Your Bonus Feats can be selected from the Fighter Bonus Feat list, you still ignore prerequisites.
Robilar's Gambit[Player's Handbook II]

Replacement for Karmic Strike that can be gained via Martial Monk. Removes the AC penalty and does not require them to hit you.

End result: This is a very mobile monk that is hard to pin down and yet has the basics of being able to hit well.

[Rebel7284]

What level is this?

There are several alternate class features with monk that when combined right can make a monk better.
Invisible Fist from exemplars of evil is amazing.
The Shar worshipping monk from Champions of Virtue web enhancement gets total concealment whenever not in direct sunlight(!?!?!)
Martial Monk from dragon magazine has been mentioned already and RAW don't need to meet prerequisites for the fighter feats selected.
Decisive Strike works wonders in some AOO builds.

I think when build and played right, and assuming
- A generous starting array to mitigate MAD
- Magic mart access
A Monk may even reach tier 3!

[atemu1234]

The average level of the group is level ten.

[bekeleven]

I strongly recommend you, him, or both of you try out my Monkday Guide to Monks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?338524). It explains how and why they're underpowered, how houserules can help fix them, and what to replace them with otherwise.

[animewatcha]

Do you allow dragon magazine?

[atemu1234]

Do you allow dragon magazine?

Case by case basis. Odds are I'd allow anything to make a decent monk.

[animewatcha]

What does he think of a monk? If it is the kung fu movie stuff, show him tome of battle and how that can do movie stuff. If it is tripping and disarming, I can do that with dragon magazine, half-minotaur, and 6 levels of martial monk ( I am used to no LA buyoff, but I am sure rest of group won't mind ). I will need find the build I drove a DM crazy with somewhere on my PC.

Since party is level 10 and everyone else is heavily optimized, see if you can get his permission to build atleast part of the thing 'yourself.' Also, is the party more toward lawful or chaotic? If either or, would you rather have sidewinder monk ( dragon mag ), regular monk, or chaotic monk for those 6 levels? I ask cause the build needs those bonus feats from the 6 levels of monk.

[SethoMarkus]

If you are starting a new campaign, just ask everyone to roll lower OP characters. Otherwise, in a mid-OP group that is martial heavy, Monk isn't really that terrible. I mean, Tier list and all only ranks one class against another, it doesn't rate how much fun someone can have with a certain class, how that class works within the dynamics of every group, or anything else like that. Heck, in one of the best campaigns I've played in the two top characters were a Monk and a Warmage. The Monk was the heavy hitter of the group who (with the aid of a custom artifact central to the plot) two-punched a dragon to death. The Warmage used a lot of spells in a utility/out-of-combat fashion, like melting the iron bars to a prison cell with Orb of Acid, or blowing up a barrel of dwarven ale with a Scorching Ray.

The point is, if your group is willing to accommodate this new player, humor them and let them play a Monk. Don't put them against challenges specifically tailored to kill a monk, but don't hold their hand through everything either. Bring back the optimization to a level that everyone can enjoy the classes they want to play.

If all of this isn't something your players are willing to do, then sit down and ask the player why they want to play a monk. Is it the flavor of an unarmed warrior? If so, introduce them to the Unarmed Swordsage like others have mentioned. Is it specifically the Monk class they want to play, flavor aside? Maybe help them find a build that will give the monk more out-of-combat utility, making their character useful in some way other than straight combat.

Telling a player "No" simply because it isn't optimal is a terrible way to introduce someone to the game. Letting that player do anything they want and then suffer the consequences when it backfires is also a terrible way to introduce them to the game. Find a middle ground.

[Brookshw]

Let him play a Monk.

Yeah, I said it. Unless you plan to ban the class, let him play a Monk. Offer him advice in how to build it, races, templates, PrCs and feats, maybe show him a link to some guides. But as a rule, if a player wants to play an unoptimized class or character, and you've warned him, it's on his head.

Now, once his character has died horribly, without any told-you-so's, offer to let him roll up a new character in a more optimal class.

Some things, the player's just got to learn himself.

Show him tippy's monk builds and tell haters to take a hike.

Seriously, work with him, not against him.

[Trinoya]

This isn't complicated. Let your player play the monk.

[Nousos]

Let him play a monk, just show him how to do it well.

The monk is my favorite class, despite its many failings, due to the fact that if it is optimized and used well, it can be VERY powerful. You don't even need houserules to fix it, just pick a few powerful options from different sourcebooks.

Just get permanencied greater magic fang cast on your body. (since You, as a monk, qualify as a natural weapon) Get pounce through one way or another (spirit lion totem barbarian dip is the commonly preferred method) so you can flurry on a charge. Have someone cast mighty wallop (or greater mighty wallop) on your fists, and take the feat leaping charge, (or one of many other charge damage multipliers) and you have one hell of an ubercharger.

There are many ACFs that can swap out sub-par abilities for good ones. Invisible fist was already mentioned which gives invisibility every few rounds if i remember right, decisive strike is well liked, and there's a full list of all ACF's somewhere on the wotc boards.

If you really want to see what monks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?285801-Tippy-s-Terrifically-Terrible-Trial) can do this link has some of the most powerful optimization i've seen on monks, just lift a lesson or two from each build as I like to do and your monk will be pounding dragons into a fine powder in no time.

Edit-Necklace of natural attacks is almost essential, as it allows your unarmed attacks to be enchanted with any affect a normal weapon could.

Edit-Edit-Now that my mind is back on monks, my favorite dip for most monk builds is Shiba Protector from Oriental Adventures. For just 1 level you can gain your wisdom modifier to ALL your attack and damage rolls. It has annoying feat requirements but its worth it, especially if you play with flaws and and you use the otyugh hole for iron will. It does have a regional human requirement, but either it can make for a fun backstory or you can ignore it. I've yet to see a dm who won't just waive regional requirements.

[nedz]

Let him play a Monk — straight out of the PH even.

You have told him that the class is poor, you can do no more.

Do tell him that he can retire his character and create a new one any time he wants to — subject to plots/verisimilitude/etc. governing the timing.

[Threadnaught]

Let him play Monk. Monks are awesome. :smallbiggrin:

And if he dies, suggest he try Unarmed Swordsage and show him how it compares to Monk.

[gr8artist]

The problem with the tier system is that it assumes a high level of optimization and system knowledge. A wizard picking touch-range evocation spells is probably not tier 1.
There are things the monk does well, such as waylay a room full of minions or hammer down on a boss. If you're not using the (admittedly common) monk/barbarian stopping strategies, then he'll be able to compete without much trouble. He might need help against flying enemies or snipers, but every character has their niche.
The problem is that the rest of the group is more optimized. If you're worried they're going to make everything too easy, then give some better monk gear or come up with some monk houserules, like 1/2 fast movement during a flurry of blows, or all attacks after the first few are at -5 (like natural attacks) rather than dropping to -10 and -15.

[Sir Chuckles]

The problem with the tier system is that it assumes a high level of optimization and system knowledge. A wizard picking touch-range evocation spells is probably not tier 1.

The tier system assumes equal knowledge across all players. If the evocation Wizard swapped to Fighter, the Wizard will still outperform the Fighter. Though you're right about that Wizard not performing as a tier 1, but it's entirely subjective. For example, in my current campaign, I have a Warblade, Crusader, Druid, Favored Soul, and Wilderness Feat Rogue. One could immediately state that, by the tier system, the Rogue is going to be totally outclassed. However, the Favored Soul has mostly healing spells, 10 Strength and 12 Constitution. The Druid has gone with Uber-Companion. The Crusader is using all mundane equipment, as has a track record of "I play a Cleric and never cast spells". In actuality, the Rogue is contributing the most out of combat, and the second most in combat (behind the Summoner/Fleshraker Druid).

Here, in this thread, it's a problem of a brand new player picking a class that can be hard to play effectively for even experienced players. I still say he should be allowed to play it, but remind him that he had fair warning.
If you really want to try to persuade him away from it, try asking him why, specifically, he wants to play a Monk.

[Nousos]

Kung Fu Genius from Dragon Magazine makes all monk abilities use intelligence instead of wisdom, and gives him the skill points to contribute outside of combat. It also is amazingly fun for roleplaying, as instead of the zen style wise and soft spoken monk, you are a true genius at fighting who knows the best way to take an enemy down. Knowledge devotion spamming ensues...

Intuitive attack from BoED gives wisdom to attack if you want to go wis based, and is super fun with that shiba protector dip. It IS an exalted feat, but this can lead to some fun "mighty smiting fists of divine fury".

Scorpion Kama allows dealing monk unarmed damage with the weapon, and the "scorpion" property that does it can be applied to any weapon. If you are creative this can be fun as hell.

I better stop before I start posting my endless monk based builds....

[StreamOfTheSky]

I really don't think the problem will be him dying. It will be him feeling useless and sucky, and being annoyed about (but understanding why) all the remotely intelligent NPCs just ignore him as a threat entirely and go after the actual dangerous people.

So yeah, I'd just point him to the monk fix you like the most and say he can play that, or take as many of the additions (I'm assuming any decent monk fix isn't *taking away* stuff) as he wants and discard the ones he doesn't like. If he still insists on the PHB monk, let him learn the hard way, don't bother asking about it again, wait till he decides he made a mistake and asks about "those fixes you mentioned back when I joined?" Then just let him retcon into having them and avoid I-told-you-so or gloating or the like, that would piss anyone off.

[deuxhero]

Tell him you "don't recommend it" and explain why. Let him if he insists, but it's good to let him know why.

[Giddonihah]

Make him play a Pathfinder Monk (3.5 monk skills of course, and using 3.5 feats where needed), preferably with an Archetype, still won't be good, but eh he wants to be a monk.

[Gavinfoxx]

Show him this:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?150122-3-5-The-Monk-Remixed

Have him compare THAT to the default monk, side by side. Offer to let him play that homebrew version.

[Curmudgeon]

Let him play a Monk. Don't try to push him into a Swordsage and all the bookkeeping of stances and maneuvers. However, do point out that there are some Monk variants worth considering, like the Chaos Monk (Dragon # 335, page 89) and Sidewinder Monk (Dragon # 331, page 89).

I recommend point buy (DMG page 169) tailored to the power of the class, using the Tier System for Classes:

15 point buy (This is where the Wizard is.)
22 point buy
28 point buy
32 point buy
40 point buy (This is where the Monk is.)
You might try 50 here, but realistically: just forget it.
That helps get the character off to a good start.

[Rubik]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15474863#post15474863

There are lots of options for boosting one's unarmed strikes, many of which I've used in the build linked above. You should consider giving him some gauntlets with Throwing, Seeking, and Distance on them, followed by a tooth of Leraje and some weapon crystals. The +5 to his enhancement bonus alone (if applied directly to his body) should give him a boost to his hardness and hp. If he's a warforged, he should get all of the construct traits not overridden by the Living Construct subtype (including bonus hp for being a Medium construct).

Fun fun.

[Gavinfoxx]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15474863#post15474863

There are lots of options for boosting one's unarmed strikes, many of which I've used in the build linked above. You should consider giving him some gauntlets with Throwing, Seeking, and Distance on them, followed by a tooth of Leraje and some weapon crystals. The +5 to his enhancement bonus alone (if applied directly to his body) should give him a boost to his hardness and hp. If he's a warforged, he should get all of the construct traits not overridden by the Living Construct subtype (including bonus hp for being a Medium construct).

Fun fun.

That's a bit much for a newbie... it'd probably scare most newbies off, I think...

[Rubik]

That's a bit much for a newbie... it'd probably scare most newbies off, I think...He can use that as a list of options to pull from, to help the monk player excel. He doesn't have to use all of that, but some stacked effects will make enhancing his unarmed strikes MUCH cheaper, and he'll be considerably more effective with bonus hp, hardness, lots of bonus damage, and some fun effects like Throwing and Distance.

[holywhippet]

For the first pen and paper D&D campaign I ever joined I tried a monk. At the time I was unfamiliar with the rules having only played PC games based on D&D so I didn't realize all of the mistakes I was making. As time passed though I became more familiar with the rules and the game and was able to see the errors of playing with a monk. Low AC and HP were the main problems resulting in my character being out cold after most battles.

As other people have said before, the point is I was learning both the class and the system. I could see what I should have done and by the end knew how to make a better monk if I'd decided to try one again. It might be a "mistake" to play one, but mistakes are an excellent teacher provided the player can see what they should have done instead.

Personally if I was going to take the monk route I'd take two levels of monk then levels of cleric or maybe druid until I qualified for the sacred fist PrC. In many ways it is better than either class.

[MeeposFire]

I would not tell him to do swordsage because that is not a class for new player (way too much stuff to learn).

I say let him play the monk and ask yourself "do I want it to be a lesson or will I try to find ways to make this workable". Chances are your table isn't doing high end stuff so if you allow certain liberties with your monks you can at least make them useable and fun which I think should be the goal. Some simple things to do that don't add much book keeping for you but can help make it fun for the player...

1. Allow flurry to work off of attack actions along with full attacks. This will allow him to be mobile (something monks are made to be but usually can't use) and make trap options like spring attack into not such a trap option (still not great but at least he can get multiple attacks with it).

2. Allow the monk to use gauntlets with his flurry or allow some other simple to find and use item to boost unarmed attacks. Gauntlets boost unarmed attacks but normally cannot be used in a flurry fix this and it helps the accuracy and damage issues a little.

3. Give out items that give enhancement bonuses to AC that can stack with bracers or armor and the like that he should find. This can bridge the AC gap in the early game.

4. Consider giving him full BAB.

I feel these are very simple things that can really help a monk player without gonig into very elaborate and extensive changes. The first allows you to have an effective attack schtick unique to the monk (more effective than you think) and the other 3 are essentially math fixes to make life less frustrating.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Make him play a Pathfinder Monk (3.5 monk skills of course, and using 3.5 feats where needed), preferably with an Archetype, still won't be good, but eh he wants to be a monk.

PF Monk is a nerf to 3E monk. Fast Move only applies to land speed; can't take Improved Natural Attack (unarmed); can't add 2ndary natural attacks to the end of a flurry; needs Int 13 to get the equivalent of 3E Improved Trip (I guess your "use 3E feats" addresses that); etc...

[Rubik]

2. Allow the monk to use gauntlets with his flurry or allow some other simple to find and use item to boost unarmed attacks. Gauntlets boost unarmed attacks but normally cannot be used in a flurry fix this and it helps the accuracy and damage issues a little.Gauntlets (not spiked gauntlets) are classified as unarmed strikes, so the monk's unarmed strike damage and flurry can be used with it. You can also enhance it like you would with a standard weapon.

I'd also suggest giving him proficiency with his unarmed strike, as well.

[Fax Celestis]

Let him play a monk. And then gently point him in the direction of Talashtora.

Or you can use my monk. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?98238-Class-3-5e-The-How-It-Should-Be-Monk

3.5 conversion notes: remove prowess, use 1/2 character level instead of hero value, give it the monk skill list with 6+int skill points.

[MeeposFire]

Gauntlets (not spiked gauntlets) are classified as unarmed strikes, so the monk's unarmed strike damage and flurry can be used with it. You can also enhance it like you would with a standard weapon.

I'd also suggest giving him proficiency with his unarmed strike, as well.

Lol I was wondering if anybody was going to mention the proficiency argument (granted due to unarmed strike sort of but not totally a natural weapon I think you can claim it be proficient regardless since you are proficient with your own natural weapons).

I like ruling that gauntlets can be used with a flurry since it does augment unarmed attacks but since it has its own entry under simple weapons you could certainly claim that they are not proficient and that since it is also a different entry you cannot flurry with it since it is not directly listed in useable weapons with a flurry.

I say regardless of what the RAW says allow it to work anyway because it is simple and makes the monk work so much better.

[Rubik]

I like ruling that gauntlets can be used with a flurry since it does augment unarmed attacks but since it has its own entry under simple weapons you could certainly claim that they are not proficient and that since it is also a different entry you cannot flurry with it since it is not directly listed in useable weapons with a flurry.

I say regardless of what the RAW says allow it to work anyway because it is simple and makes the monk work so much better.The gauntlet is listed under "unarmed strike" in the weapons list. Monk overrides the unarmed strike damage, and flurries work with unarmed strikes, and since gauntlets are defined as unarmed strikes, it does work. Someone might interpret it to be something else, but that's not RAW.

[Harrow]

If you really want good advice, you're going to have to ask your player why he wants to be a monk.

To be an unarmed fighter? Barbarian does it better. May need some refluffing, such as changing rage to a sort of martial trance

To not be dependent on magical items? Most magic items aren't used to hit things harder, but to replicate spell effects. Psion does it better (for low-op players)

Heck, I once had a new player that insisted on playing Paladin, convinced his character would be a wrecking ball because Paladin's were OP in Diablo. Once his character turned out to be lackluster, he lost interest. He eventually left the group after i veto'd his homebrew fix for Paladin, which was basically a Paladin//Barbarian//Cleric Gestalt. If your player wants to be a Monk in D&D because he liked Monks in some other game, try to figure out why he liked Monks in that game and give him an idea of how to do that thing effectively in D&D, and if it can't/shouldn't be done (for example, because curbstomping every monster you meet without any effort quickly becomes boring) try to explain to him why.

But these are just examples I'm pulling out of thin air. If you want real advice, we're going to have to know why exactly this player wants to be a Monk.

Regardless of his reason, I wouldn't let him play PHB Monk. As GM it is your duty to make sure everyone at the table is having fun, and I genuinely think that a new player with a PHB monk has a very slim chance of having fun in a group of more experienced players with moderately optimized characters.

[Sith_Happens]

Show him this:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?150122-3-5-The-Monk-Remixed

Have him compare THAT to the default monk, side by side. Offer to let him play that homebrew version.

This. Jiriku's Monk fix isn't just good, it's freaking awesome. Dance with the Elements is literally one of my favorite class features ever.

[MeeposFire]

Show him this:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?150122-3-5-The-Monk-Remixed

Have him compare THAT to the default monk, side by side. Offer to let him play that homebrew version.

I like that monk a lot and it even uses a bunch of the stuff I was talking about such as flurry on non-full attacks and ways to boost your attack/damage values (though it does it in class whereas I was advocating allowing equipment to do it just like everybody else).

That Dance with the elements is one of the coolest abilities out there I must admit. That is one thing I had not yet considered in any monk fix I have made.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Yeah, I really like his Monk fix, especially with the Sense the Void variant instead of useless slow fall (which he left in for legacy-sake). The one for skirmish is interesting, too.

[DMVerdandi]

Not one suggestion to play battle dancer? I know it's obscure, but it's literally just a better monk typed off of charisma.

If not that, I would suggest codzilla. Take superior unarmed attack, and pick up a monks belt. Voila. That is more monk-like than the monk class itself.

If not that, Monk 1/ Psion 19 with tashalitora and carmindine monk feats.


But straight monk is just bad. Explain to him how the class abilities work. That alone is enough to really shock and awe.

[HunterOfJello]

Let him play the monk and learn about the game through the experience. You can learn a lot about a game through failing and failing is what monks do best.

D&D is not a game that imports a player's non-D&D ideas about what a class or race should be and lets them have fun at it. D&D sets up its own original versions of classes and lets players sink or swim in their pursuits. Want to play a pure monk half-elf? Go for it and fail like you should because in a world full of magic attacking people while unarmored and only using your fists is idiotic.

[Raezeman]

There is also the enlightened fist.
put in 1 level of monk and 4 levels of battle sorcerer and voila, arcane casting fist fighter.
Throw in some abjurant champion and you can get some nice results!

[nedz]

There is also the enlightened fist.
put in 1 level of monk and 4 levels of battle sorcerer and voila, arcane casting fist fighter.
Throw in some abjurant champion and you can get some nice results!

Which also adds Cha to the MAD mix.

Why not Monk 2 / Beguiler 3 / Enlightened Fist X ?
Add in Kung Fu Genius/Carmendine to reduce MAD and build a Skill Monkey Monk
Wizard is better, but that's harder for a newbie.

[Raezeman]

Which also adds Cha to the MAD mix.

Why not Monk 2 / Beguiler 3 / Enlightened Fist X ?
Add in Kung Fu Genius/Carmendine to reduce MAD and build a Skill Monkey Monk
Wizard is better, but that's harder for a newbie.

Actually, not with the lovely feat of ascetic mage. This feats gives you CHA to AC instead of WIS to AC. It also gives other nice thingies such as:
-you can as a swift action sacrifice a spell slot for a bonus to unarmed strike attack and damage rolls equal to the spell slot
-sorcerer and monk levels stack for the purpose of AC bonus
-allowed for multiclassing between monk and sorcerer

Of course check if this works with the battle sorcerer variant instead of normal sorcerer, but i don't see why it wouldn't.

[Darkweave31]

Let them play the monk. Steer them towards the more optimal choices if you feel the need. Adjust challenges so that they participate and feel like they are playing the role they want to play. This is a chance to showcase some great DMing by being able to create challenges for players of all skill level.

So for example, a city that requires weapons to be peace-bound or checked at the gate (not unreasonable). A dungeon that has parts where a dead magic zone persists naturally, giving them a chance to solve problems by jumping and climbing rather than the wizard just casting fly or feather fall.

It's their first experience with tabletop role playing games, make it about fun, not the numbers.

[lytokk]

Let him play the monk. More specifically, a warforged monk. The +2 to ac and the warforged general immunities will help. The -2 to wisdom will hurt the monk, but not horribly. Slap a battlefist on him to up his unarmed damage to a large creature and he should be good. He won't out-perform the party, but if he's creative enough he could have a lot of fun.

An idea I toyed with as a simple monk fix was to give wisdom bonus to attacks and damage, in an attempt to make the monk a little less MAD. I was thinking also wisdom bonus to all saves as well, but the double wisdom will saves have me hesitant.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Honestly the monk, if played the right way is probably the strongest class in the game.

Just show him that he can take cross-class ranks in UMD and sell him a bunch of partially charged wands.

Well played. Also remember that Monks have floating feats, class features, skills, attributes and wealth allocation that can be changed as an immediate action.

[Rubik]

Well played. Also remember that Monks have floating feats, class features, skills, attributes and wealth allocation that can be changed as an immediate action.RaiNbow... STOP GETTING POSSESSED BY GIACOMO! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=tc6huzw4PhA#t=31)

[Curmudgeon]

The gauntlet is listed under "unarmed strike" in the weapons list.
No, that's actually not right; they're under Unarmed Attacks in the weapons list. Gauntlets and unarmed strikes are both ways of making unarmed attacks, but they're separate items in this category. In addition to not having proficiencies with unarmed strikes, Monks also have no weapon proficiencies with gauntlets. It's a near-universal house rule to fix the unarmed strike proficiency, but considerably less common for DMs to grant Monks proficiency with gauntlets. When I'm DMing, I never do. That makes life simpler by also bypassing the whole argument about gauntlets being parts of suits of armor, and Monks not being proficient with any armor.

[Rubik]

No, that's actually not right; they're under Unarmed Attacks in the weapons list. Gauntlets and unarmed strikes are both ways of making unarmed attacks, but they're separate items in this category. In addition to not having proficiencies with unarmed strikes, Monks also have no weapon proficiencies with gauntlets. It's a near-universal house rule to fix the unarmed strike proficiency, but considerably less common for DMs to grant Monks proficiency with gauntlets. When I'm DMing, I never do. That makes life simpler by also bypassing the whole argument about gauntlets being parts of suits of armor, and Monks not being proficient with any armor.Crud. You're right.

Still, there are lots of other ways of cheaply boosting unarmed strikes, many (but not all) of which are in that monk build of mine I linked to.

[Nousos]

An idea I toyed with as a simple monk fix was to give wisdom bonus to attacks and damage, in an attempt to make the monk a little less MAD.

You can already get that, as I previously mentioned. Intuitive attack plus Shiba Protector 1 gives you you Wisdom bonus to attack twice, and wisdom plus strength to damage.

[Curmudgeon]

Still, there are lots of other ways of cheaply boosting unarmed strikes
I've found you really don't have to sweat this; you only need one boost for the Monk's unarmed damage to be adequate: a casting of Greater Mighty Wallop (Races of the Dragon). While other options can improve on this, that single spell from your party Sorcerer/Wizard is enough to put the Monk's damage output in the same ballpark as the charging Barbarian or Fighter with Leap Attack.

The problem then is everything else in the class. :smallsigh:

[Rubik]

I've found you really don't have to sweat this; you only need one boost for the Monk's unarmed damage to be adequate: a casting of Greater Mighty Wallop (Races of the Dragon). While other options can improve on this, that single spell from your party Sorcerer/Wizard is enough to put the Monk's damage output in the same ballpark as the charging Barbarian or Fighter with Leap Attack.

The problem then is everything else in the class. :smallsigh:Damage isn't the only boost you can get. Throwing, Distance, Seeking, Ghost Touch, Metaline, etc etc etc.

You'd be surprised at how much those five alone can boost the monk, when applied to their entire body.

[Jowgen]

Damage isn't the only boost you can get. Throwing, Distance, Seeking, Ghost Touch, Metaline, etc etc etc.

Some information on this:
A monk's unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons (Player's Handbook p. 41)

A monk's hands and feet (and the rest of her body, when necessary) are effective weapons when she begins play, and they just keep getting better as she progresses (http://web.archive.org/web/20130531074637/http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20050310a)

If a DM accepts that the above two make it so that the Monk's body is -for all intents and purposes- a weapon, it opens up ways to make the monk not suck as much. Most are dependent on the Necklace of Natural Attacks.

My personal favorite: Weapon Crystals from the MIC, particularly, the Crystal of Adamant Weaponry; which increases the Hardness of a Weapon. Is giving Hardness to anything that isn't an animated objected cheesy? Maybe. Does the Monk need whatever he can get his bloody hands on to not be a waste of space? Obviously.

[Vogonjeltz]

In my group I tend to help my players make their characters (give them advice, help them pick classes, etc.) and we have a reasonably optimized group (no crazy builds, but no straight-class fighters either) and we just got a new player. This new player (as in, this is his experience with D20, period) wants to play a monk. I've told him it's a bad class, and I told him it'll wind up dead. He either doesn't understand or doesn't care, so what should I do? The rest of the party is optimized enough to handle what I'm throwing at them, but that monk is basically doomed.

Advice is usually appreciated, trying to make decisions for someone else is usually not.

In that vein: Offer to give your opinion on the class and/or advice on options.
If the player accepts this offer, feel free to say whatever you're thinking, if not, say nothing for there is nothing else to be said.

[Rubik]

Some information on this:
A monk's unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons (Player's Handbook p. 41)

A monk's hands and feet (and the rest of her body, when necessary) are effective weapons when she begins play, and they just keep getting better as she progresses (http://web.archive.org/web/20130531074637/http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20050310a)

If a DM accepts that the above two make it so that the Monk's body is -for all intents and purposes- a weapon, it opens up ways to make the monk not suck as much. Most are dependent on the Necklace of Natural Attacks.

My personal favorite: Weapon Crystals from the MIC, particularly, the Crystal of Adamant Weaponry; which increases the Hardness of a Weapon. Is giving Hardness to anything that isn't an animated objected cheesy? Maybe. Does the Monk need whatever he can get his bloody hands on to not be a waste of space? Obviously.Don't forget that enhancement bonuses grant extra hardness and hp, and that warforged can stack the bonuses from doing the same to their body plating.

[Jowgen]

Don't forget that enhancement bonuses grant extra hardness and hp, and that warforged can stack the bonuses from doing the same to their body plating.

Ah, yes, I recall that a monk's hardness scales quite nicely with wbl, with Hardness 20 being reachable by mid-late levels. It makes the monk a lot less squishy for a MAD character. There is extra fun to be had by brining warforged in on this, but I didn't want to suggest anything that limited the New Player's character concept.

Allowing the new player to up-grade his monk's body via the necklace of natrual weapons brings much versitality to the class and allows the player to get creative while accentuating the flavour of the class. I recommend this approach to make his monk last.

[Rubik]

With some optimization, it's not hard to get hardness much higher than that. The build I linked to had hardness in the triple digits, easily.

[Jowgen]

With some optimization, it's not hard to get hardness much higher than that.

I figured as much, but again I was referring purely to what could be accomplished with just the Necklace of Natural Attacks and the Crystal of Adamant weaponry, as to avoid suggesting things that could limit the New Player's character concept, which -wanting to play a monk- he evidently values more than optimization. :smalltongue:

Checked your build you linked to btw, it looks ravishing :smallwink:

[Threadnaught]

Why are there so many comments implying that the player is wrong for wanting to play as the Monk, either by saying they only want to play it because they're new, or stupid?

Why so many suggestions to force encourage the player to play something else by forcing their personal taste on educating the player about the Monk's flaws?


Let the player play Monk and if Monk dies, advise them to play mechanically better Monk and develop their own personal taste on whether they prefer Monk or mechanically better version. If they prefer Monk, it is because Monk is awesome, despite it's many failings.

It's like a Fighter, but with real Class Features. :smallamused:

[jedipilot24]

In my group I tend to help my players make their characters (give them advice, help them pick classes, etc.) and we have a reasonably optimized group (no crazy builds, but no straight-class fighters either) and we just got a new player. This new player (as in, this is his experience with D20, period) wants to play a monk. I've told him it's a bad class, and I told him it'll wind up dead. He either doesn't understand or doesn't care, so what should I do? The rest of the party is optimized enough to handle what I'm throwing at them, but that monk is basically doomed.

He wants to play a Monk, let him play a Monk and point him toward a Monk handbook or two. Let him learn for himself why Monks are terrible.

[Diachronos]

The problem I'm seeing with the situation is that people are trying to come up with ways to "let him play the class he wants" while still steering him away from a class that he outright stated he wants to play.

Maybe I don't have any room to talk considering that my experience with optimization would make people think I've got an Int of 4 at best, but being a relatively new player myself I can see one glaring problem with these suggestions to "help" the new player be an optimized monk: you're essentially telling him that he's just going to be a burden to the party if he's not optimized. If everyone else is complaining or remarking about how his character "could be better by choosing X instead of Y", he may end up thinking that he doesn't have any business playing the game just because he's choosing to have fun instead of optimizing (I realize that lots of people probably enjoy optimizing, but it may not come across that way to an inexperienced player).

Is that really the impression you want to give to a brand-new player?

[bekeleven]

you're essentially telling him that he's just going to be a burden to the party if he's not optimized.

[...]

Is that really the impression you want to give to a brand-new player?

Depends on the game.

I'm currently running a 5-man game where 4 players are playing decent tier 3s (all my homebrew, and I couldn't be happier). The 5th player is playing a tier 1 and having a laugh of it. Spell list is benign transposition, mount, feather fall, cheat, portal well, regal procession...

Basically, this 5th player is spending the time as class clown, occasionally contributing to battle with a bewildering substitution or firestride exhalation, but on the whole just doing his own thing. We've declared that he's party leader. It leads to many amusing situations.

When I run the game, I basically balance the party as 4 ECL7s and one ECL ~4.5.

So, to respond to your statement:


If the game is mostly based on mechanical interaction, he will do less, and if he's perceptive, he will notice he's doing less. As I say in my guide: "I hope that if you want to play a ascetic or martial artist, in a game that relies heavily on rolls and mechanical interaction, you find it within yourself to look beyond the class of Monk."
If the game is largely roleplay and social, have fun! Do your thing.
If the GM is balancing the game based on all party members pulling their weight in combat, he will be a burden if not optimized. So would, for instance, the Regdar or Tordek fighter builds from Enemies+Allies. So would a soulborn.
If the GM is balancing him as having reduced role, then that's a lesser situation. However...
...If they're fighting enemies at proper ECL, a character weaker than the rest of the party will be in greater danger* and feel less useful. This feeling sucks. I've felt it; I started D&D playing a fighter, and my party had druids and wizards.
...If the GM tailors fights to him, nobody else will be challenged, the party will carve through challenges like tissue paper, and it will be transparent.


*Maybe not. It's actually not hard to build a monk with decent defenses; it's doing things to others where they have issue.

[MeeposFire]

He wants to play a Monk, let him play a Monk and point him toward a Monk handbook or two. Let him learn for himself why Monks are terrible.

I do not recommend sending new players to look at handbooks especially 3e ones. These is a tendency to throw a LOT of stuff at you in those handbooks and they are incredibly overwhelming, even more so if it is one of the many that decides it needs to list EVERYTHING including the bad options.

It is far better to have a new player get help from you directly and if you need it you can look at the handbook because there is too much info there that the new player will not understand plus all the negativity you find on the internet will just be a huge turn off.

[sideswipe]

houserule all monks have 18 in all stats. and only monks... could be fun.

[Nightraiderx]

Let the man play a monk, but you as the DM should help him optimize it and lead him towards ways of doing so.
Does he want to go pure monk? what level are you guys playing at? He will have to grab good feats from other books to keep himself
somewhat relevant and monks DO make great scouts, so with his wisdom synergy and class skills he can at least do that much.

Lets look some basic monk flaw issues:
1. Lack of flurry of blows chances: Travel Devotion feat for movement.
2. Can't hit due to Avg attack and MAD? Weapon Finesse or Intuitive Attack.
3. Damage is low? Improved Natural Attack + Superior Unarmed Strike + Monk's Belt

Monk won't need str as much as he will want MIC magic items that compliment his play style (fairly cheap)

[defiantdan]

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=11530.msg195532#msg195532

Soro's Enlightenment series has some awesome stuff on how to make a monk rock socks.

[Cloud]

If he really wants to play a Monk, let him. When I was new to the hobby it was nice to try out what I wanted and see what did and didn't work. I wouldn't tell someone no you can't be that/you're wrong, do this instead.

That being said, I'd ask why he wants to play a Monk specifically, and see if you can't address those points. If he still wants to play a monk, maybe see how he feels about home brew then.