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henebry
2007-03-04, 07:53 PM
I asked this over in Simple Q&A by the RAW, but was told it wasn't a simple question and couldn't be solved by applying RAW. Lord Silvanos suggested I pose it as a separate thread. So here goes:

Can you bull rush more than one target? In particular, can a Greater Water Elemental (a Huge creature with Improved Bull Rush) use the maneuver to push a whole party off a platform and into the water?

It would seem to me that the elemental would move through the party as a powerful wave. As DM, I would do opposed str checks for each PC vs. the water elemental, which would get a +7 for its Str, +2 because it's charging, +4 for the Imp BR feat, and +8 for being Huge in size (total +21). Dwarven PCs would get +4 in addition to their Str bonus, while halflings and gnomes would get -4 due to size.

On a successful opposed Str check, a given PC would be pushed 5 ft + an additional 5 ft. for every 5 pts by which the elemental won the Str check (since the water elemental will end its move in the water beyond the edge of the platform).

As I say, that's how it makes sense to me, but in the Bull Rush description in the Combat Maneuvers section of the d20 srd (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#bullRush), there's no mention made of targeting more than one opponent in a bull rush maneuver.

Other complications: can characters which make their rolls act to aid characters that get washed past them? And if there's a railing at the edge of the platform, do characters get to make a Ref save to grab on, allowing them to make a second opposed Str Check? Finally, does the elemental take a penalty on his bull rush roll since the party is standing on dry land?

Roderick_BR
2007-03-04, 08:04 PM
I believe there is nothing in RAW for that. I could be wrong, of course.
The DM could houserule that large creatures can bullrush two medium creatures, with a -2 to his strength check for each creature, and a huge one could bullrush up to 4 medium creatures, with a -2 to his strength check for each creature.
Maybe having a Multiple Bullrush feat to allow it.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-03-04, 08:26 PM
I would allow it, but I would not make it too easy.


You can only bull rush an opponent who is one size category larger than you, the same size, or smaller.

I would have two creatures (of the same size) count as one size category larger for the purpose of determining what can be bull rushed.
I.e. two medium creatures count as a large creature.


Second, you and the defender make opposed Strength checks. You each add a +4 bonus for each size category you are larger than Medium or a –4 penalty for each size category you are smaller than Medium. You get a +2 bonus if you are charging. The defender gets a +4 bonus if he has more than two legs or is otherwise exceptionally stable.

I would also give each of the defenders the size bonus based on what I described above and apply the stability bonus to all of them.

henebry
2007-03-04, 08:48 PM
I would have two creatures (of the same size) count as one size category larger for the purpose of determining what can be bull rushed.
I.e. two medium creatures count as a large creature.
But two medium creatures together weigh about half of what a large creature weighs. I would have been inclined to set the ratio at 4 to 1 (or maybe 3 to 1). But, then, if 4 PCs = 1 Huge creature, that works out to a bonus of +8, which is identical to the penalty which Roderick_BR suggested in his post. So that actually sounds quite reasonable.


I would also ... apply the stability bonus to all of them.
The stability bonus goes to multi-legged creatures. If the defenders linked arms and worked together, yes. But if caught off-guard, no.

Ramza00
2007-03-04, 08:48 PM
I don't know about your example but I do know a war hulk can do it.

dorshe1
2007-03-05, 12:22 AM
I would say no. Action doesn't allow for multiple targets. However, if you wanted to do it for some 'quasi realism' factor, I would either make it extremely difficult, or build a new feat to allow it.

Without feat:

Each person making the save would get a +4 bonus for each person ahead or behind them when the bull rush attack occurs. This is because if you are in front, there will multiple people behind you to help brace yourself against the wave (+4 bonus for any effect that makes you more sturdy) and then if you are in the back, you have people in front of you who are taking the brunt of the bull rush, so it will not be as effective on you.

So if you have a party that is three deep, they would all get a plus +8.

Position 1: +8 from two behind
Position 2: +4 from front +4 from behind
Position 3: +8 from in front

Of course, you could just hire a 20th level wizard, that would handle the party nicely.

TheOOB
2007-03-05, 12:49 AM
I don't know about your example but I do know a war hulk can do it.

I refuse to acknowledge that class exists...does someone smell cheese?

Tor the Fallen
2007-03-05, 12:53 AM
If everyone gets a chance to resist, let any ONE successful save stop the whole thing.

brian c
2007-03-05, 02:04 AM
I refuse to acknowledge that class exists...does someone smell cheese?

War hulks can do pretty much anything physical, they just aren't allowed to think. I think war hulk is a perfectly decent, non-broken, non-cheesy class, but just like any PrC it needs to be DM-regulated; a player shouldn't be allowed to just dip a level or two into it for optimization purposes.

Quietus
2007-03-05, 04:38 AM
Well, that whole "You aren't allowed to use mental stats at all" thing happens with level 1 of war hulk isn't it? And the entire point is that you get strength every level?

If you wanna dip, go for it.

henebry
2007-03-05, 07:01 AM
I'm surprised this idea has run up against so much resistance. The Greater W E is a Huge wave, with a front edge about 20 ft. across and probably weighing 10 tons. Having spent my share of days at the seashore, I have an idea of the powerful effect of a wave on a mass of people, whether they're trying to resist its force collectively or not.

On the other hand, I appreciate the point the collective wisdom is making about not introducing major changes without, as some have said, making it difficult. And I realize that, as summonable (and shapechangable) creatures, elementals are dangerous creatures to enhance by DM fiat: what's good for the DM's drama one day may well be game-breakingly great for the players later on.

brian c
2007-03-05, 09:48 AM
Well, that whole "You aren't allowed to use mental stats at all" thing happens with level 1 of war hulk isn't it? And the entire point is that you get strength every level?

If you wanna dip, go for it.

I'm aware of that; I'm just saying that one level dips are pretty much an optimization thing so the DM should be wary about them

Quietus
2007-03-05, 10:52 AM
If ever I find a player is taking one level in this PrC, and one there, I call BS on them privately; You can't be "just a little" of an arcane archer, you either are or you aren't. If you want to take a single level dip then go back to your core classes, that's fine; That class wasn't for you. But people who take, say, 1-2 levels in 5 different classes? No dice.

Person_Man
2007-03-05, 11:14 AM
As others have stated, there is nothing in RAW to allow it. A Bull Rush is a melee attack. A melee attack effects only 1 target unless there is a specific special exception of some sort (like a Warmind's Sweeping Strike).

If you allow this, a cagey PC might start using Expansion and doing the same exact thing in encounters.

So I wouldn't allow it. But if you're fine with it, then I see no reason you couldn't make a house rule. I think Lord_Silvanos makes a very good suggestion - giving multiple targets some sort of size modifier would the best way to balance it out.

brian c
2007-03-05, 01:53 PM
If ever I find a player is taking one level in this PrC, and one there, I call BS on them privately; You can't be "just a little" of an arcane archer, you either are or you aren't. If you want to take a single level dip then go back to your core classes, that's fine; That class wasn't for you. But people who take, say, 1-2 levels in 5 different classes? No dice.

Agreed.

Back on topic though, I read over the description of the War Hulk great/mighty swing ability and it specifically says that if you use a special attack (disarm, trip and sunder and examples given but this should also apply to bull rush) then it only affects one enemy. It does say that the other targets are attacked normally, so even though I don't think this makes any sense, you can bull rush one oppoent and in the same action attack other opponents.

Person_Man
2007-03-05, 03:04 PM
War Hulks (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20030914a) (scroll down on the link, its towards the bottom) are almost globally recognized as a broken PrC. You might use one as a BBEG, but giving your PC's access to one is a really bad idea. War Hulk+Divine Power FTW.

brian c
2007-03-05, 03:35 PM
War Hulks (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20030914a) (scroll down on the link, its towards the bottom) are almost globally recognized as a broken PrC. You might use one as a BBEG, but giving your PC's access to one is a really bad idea. War Hulk+Divine Power FTW.

War Hulk+Divine Power makes absolutely no sense from a character perspective though; you'd need a Large or larger 7th+ level cleric with Cleave, who then decides that the best way to serve their god is to become a semi-mindless (see: No Time to Think) smashing machine. Maybe that's a great tactic for a game if you think of your characters in terms of optimization, but if you're actually role-playing then it would be extremely hard to justify a Cleric/War Hulk multiclass. This is what I've been saying, that War Hulks are strong but they are not broken as long as the DM places reasonable limits on the players. If the DM does not place reasonable limits, then many many things can be abused.

Fax Celestis
2007-03-05, 03:44 PM
War Hulk+Divine Power makes absolutely no sense from a character perspective though; you'd need a Large or larger 7th+ level cleric with Cleave, who then decides that the best way to serve their god is to become a semi-mindless (see: No Time to Think) smashing machine. Maybe that's a great tactic for a game if you think of your characters in terms of optimization, but if you're actually role-playing then it would be extremely hard to justify a Cleric/War Hulk multiclass. This is what I've been saying, that War Hulks are strong but they are not broken as long as the DM places reasonable limits on the players. If the DM does not place reasonable limits, then many many things can be abused.

Not particularly. Exhibit A: Cleric of Gruumsh, Orc God of Smashing Things and Beating Them With Sticks.

Or perhaps Exhibit B: Cleric of Kord, God of Killing Opponents So Handily That You Need a Towel for the Aftermath.

Try also Exhibit C: Idealist Cleric of Chaotic Evil.

Yakk
2007-03-05, 04:02 PM
First: add +5 per additional target -- this reflects the fact that two people with strength 10 can lift as much as one person with strength 20.

Second: add up their sizes.

3 X = a size upgrade
Leftovers: +2

So:
2 halflings, a gnome, a dwarf and 3 humans.

That is 3 S and 4 M.

First the 3 S get converted to 1 M, making it 5 M.

Then 3 of the 5 M get converted to 1 L, making it 1 L and 2 M.

That's +4 from size and +2 from the leftovers, for a total of +6 from size.

The Halfings and Gnomes have 8, 8 and 6 strength (-4 total)
The Humans have 20, 14 and 10 Strength. (+7 total)
The Dwarf has 22 strength. (+6 total)
-----------
+9 total strength mod.

+4 for a dwarf.

6 extra targets, that's +30.

Total modifier: +49 to the bull rush resistance for the party.

The water elemental has +21 -- which means it can't take out the entire party.

Attacking a str 20 Human and two str 8 Halflings would be:
+2 for size (medium with some left over)
+10 for extra targets
+3 total strength mod
---
+15 total BR -- the water elemental could pull that off.

Person_Man
2007-03-05, 04:40 PM
War Hulk+Divine Power makes absolutely no sense from a character perspective though; you'd need a Large or larger 7th+ level cleric with Cleave, who then decides that the best way to serve their god is to become a semi-mindless (see: No Time to Think) smashing machine. Maybe that's a great tactic for a game if you think of your characters in terms of optimization, but if you're actually role-playing then it would be extremely hard to justify a Cleric/War Hulk multiclass. This is what I've been saying, that War Hulks are strong but they are not broken as long as the DM places reasonable limits on the players. If the DM does not place reasonable limits, then many many things can be abused.

Fax gives some great examples. I'd add that lots of Lycanthropes or Entomanothropes or have a Large size. It would make plenty of fluff sense to me for them to be Clerics in their humanoid form and then turn into their animal/vermin form, bringing about the War Hulk aspect. I'm think the god(s) of lycanthropy/transformation/change would be down with that.

There are also plenty of Large, barbaric races/creatures in Savage Species. Any number of them would worship a violent god.

But even without Cleric levels, its a pretty darn powerful class. Imagine the crunch implications of an ECL 16 Entomanothropic Sword Spider 6/Warshaper 3/Barbarian 1/Warhulk 4. 40ish Str, 9 attacks, each attack applies to 3 squares. Or the more simple ECL 9+X Ogre Psychic Warrior 2/Pyrokineticist 1/Warhulk X. Or heck, just a plain Barbarian/Fighter/Warhulk with the right feats will make you more powerful then 99% of the non-polymorph/wildshape builds out there.

squishycube
2007-03-05, 05:04 PM
And back on topic:
I not only think this is a great idea, but also a necessity in some situations. Consider this situation:
http://www.quibuscms.net/img/forum/grid.gif
If the large creature represented by the red circle bullrushes one of the creatures represented by the green circles, what happens to the other creature? Especially if the attacking creature is something massive, like an elemental or an Ooze.
I think a multi-bullrush is a good solution for that situation.

brian c
2007-03-05, 05:15 PM
Fax gives some great examples. I'd add that lots of Lycanthropes or Entomanothropes or have a Large size. It would make plenty of fluff sense to me for them to be Clerics in their humanoid form and then turn into their animal/vermin form, bringing about the War Hulk aspect. I'm think the god(s) of lycanthropy/transformation/change would be down with that.

There are also plenty of Large, barbaric races/creatures in Savage Species. Any number of them would worship a violent god.

But even without Cleric levels, its a pretty darn powerful class. Imagine the crunch implications of an ECL 16 Entomanothropic Sword Spider 6/Warshaper 3/Barbarian 1/Warhulk 4. 40ish Str, 9 attacks, each attack applies to 3 squares. Or the more simple ECL 9+X Ogre Psychic Warrior 2/Pyrokineticist 1/Warhulk X. Or heck, just a plain Barbarian/Fighter/Warhulk with the right feats will make you more powerful then 99% of the non-polymorph/wildshape builds out there.

The first two builds you mention are what I was saying a DM needs to prevent, "dips" in a class for a level or two. The Barbarian/Fighter/Warhulk is certainly more powerful than a pure fighter or any other pure melee class, but is it more powerful than a wildshaping druid? How about a well-built wizard? If it's only strong for a melee character then it isn't broken. Also, War Hulks work best when fighting many enemies; put a war hulk up against one (or a small group) of higher CR enemies and it isn't as fantastic. Also, those Large creatures in Saveage Species tend to have LA; however Savage Species is a little unbalanced as it is, so if a SS monster race with War Hulk levels is "broken" then it might not be all the War Hulk class' fault.


This is really getting off topic though.

About the bull rushing; Yakk, I don't think it's fair to combine the dwarf with the others and give it the stability bonus; the total "creature" that youre bullrushing (Large + 2 medium) should only get a +4 stability bonus if all of the "parts" are stable.

Another thing to take into account that I haven't seen anyone mention yet is reach; are all of the party members standing close enough together that the Water Elemental (Huge, you said) can reach them? Assuming Huge = 20ft reach they'd have to be pretty close together.

henebry
2007-03-05, 08:02 PM
Squishycube, I love the diagram! To answer BrianC, the platform where the party will be standing is 10x20 ft, so 2x4 squares, as shown below:
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q105/henebryc/Picture3.png
The platform is stone, but the stairs down to the platform (on the left) are wrought iron, as also the stairs down from the platform (on the right), which are submerged in water after the fifth step. The PCs will troop down the first staircase, then pause on the platform to look at an altar that's dedicated to elemental water. Then someone will notice a wave rushing toward them from the right: you guessed it, the elemental, which will try to wash the PCs from right to left off the platform and into the water. Let's imagine that there are 5 PCs, arranged as follows:
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q105/henebryc/Picture3-1.png where the black circle is a Dwarf, the green and orange are Halflings and the blue and purple are Humans. The wave comes through from the right, so it will strike the dwarf and orange halfling first, then the green halfling, then the blue human and finally the purple human.

brian c
2007-03-05, 08:41 PM
Squishycube, I love the diagram! To answer BrianC, the platform where the party will be standing is 10x20 ft, so 2x4 squares, as shown below:
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q105/henebryc/Picture3.png
The platform is stone, but the stairs down to the platform (on the left) are wrought iron, as also the stairs down from the platform (on the right), which are submerged in water after the fifth step. The PCs will troop down the first staircase, then pause on the platform to look at an altar that's dedicated to elemental water. Then someone will notice a wave rushing toward them from the right: you guessed it, the elemental, which will try to wash the PCs from right to left off the platform and into the water. Let's imagine that there are 5 PCs, arranged as follows:
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q105/henebryc/Picture3-1.png where the black circle is a Dwarf, the green and orange are Halflings and the blue and purple are Humans. The wave comes through from the right, so it will strike the dwarf and orange halfling first, then the green halfling, then the blue human and finally the purple human.

If it isn't hitting them all at once, then it doesn't make sense to make just one bullrush roll against them. There are rules for bullrushing and pushing your opponent back more than 5 feet, so I'd say do that 3 times. This actually could make it a lot easier than if they were all at once, because I don't think it would be appropriate to give a bonus to the standing members of the party to avoid being pushed back because of their allies who are already knocked off their feet... make sense?