Tips for a lvl 20 druid (specifically, race)

[Fenlove]

Hey!
I'm gonna be playing a Druid in a 20th level adventure, and I have no experience whatsoever playing characters higher than level 10.

So far, I've made some reaserch mainly about animal companions, equipment and feats for said level, but I'd love to know which race I should play.
LA is not an issue, since the DM said that it wouldn't matter, and that we would be level 20 despite level adjustment.
So I wanted to know which races I should consider, and if there is any template worth noting.

I'd also love to know must have spells, since the druid spell list is oh so long, and I'd hate to miss some of the important ones.

As a side note, how should I exploit Venomfire? Is it worthwhile? It sounds really broken.

Thanks!

[Vhaidara]

One moment
Summon Eggynack IX

He'll be along eventually.

In the meantime, Dragonborn Anthropomorphic Bat is, IIRC, the best race for druids without LA. With LA, I don't recall.

Venomfire is broken beyond belief. Grab a Fleshraker Animal Companion, pop Venomfire, let it tear things with twice its hit dice to bits in a single pouncing leap.

[Threadnaught]

I dunno, I like Dragonwought Kobolds who can turn into Dragons and are really old. There's a lot you can do with a Kobold when it comes to Druids and Dragons.

eggynack is probably going to suggest something like Orcy, if no specified concept is given. Orcy is designed to (ab)use as much of Druid as possible.

[eggynack]

I am a fan of dragonborn desert half-orc running the half-orc sub levels from races of destiny, cause it's awesome, but at level 20, it seems probable that the shifter path is the best way to go. You lose the animal companion, along with about four levels of wild shape progression, but neither of those things matters at all at level 20, and you get rapid summoning+spell power+cool bonuses from shifter substitution levels, and other useful abilities related to summoning from moonspeaker.

The general build looks something like druid 8/moonspeaker 4/druid 8, but you can fit a contemplative (CD, 30) level in there without losing much, and maybe even a holt warden (CC, 84) level as well if you pick up something to boost wild shape level (trappings of the beast (CC, 135) or a wild shape amulet (MoF, 167)). As for spells, it really depends on what you want to do with your time. You're at the point where shapechange is just better than anything else you'd do, so you'll probably want to use a lot of that supported by defensive spells like friendly fire (EoE, 27) and the heart of X line from complete mage. For more general advice along those lines, I could PM over my in progress handbook, which has more general spell information than I could conceivably fit into a quick post.

[Fenlove]

Well, for lets say first glance issues, I was looking at races that give Wis modifier, but I actually don't even know if they exist.
I thought Shifter was a template and not a race!
From which book is it, so that I can read about it?

And yeah, I'd love it if you could PM me stuff from your WIP handook, since I'm completely lost regarding spells.

Thanks a bunch!

I'm not that sure about the dragonborn stuff since I'd get timeless body and not have penalties for Venerable age.

[eggynack]

Well, for lets say first glance issues, I was looking at races that give Wis modifier, but I actually don't even know if they exist.
As was mentioned, anthropomorphic bat is from savage species and provides a +6 to wisdom. Pretty crazy stuff.

I thought Shifter was a template and not a race! From which book is it, so that I can read about it?
Pretty much everything you need for shifter purposes, from the race itself to the sub levels to moonspeaker to dreamsight (the trait you should take) are to be found in races of eberron.


I'm not that sure about the dragonborn stuff since I'd get timeless body and not have penalties for Venerable age.
I think you're thinking of dragonwrought kobold. Dragonborn is a template from races of the dragon that swaps out most racial traits, but not ability mods or movement modes (along with a few other things) for a +2 constitution, -2 dexterity, and some cool abilities. Pretty great on something like anthro bat or desert half-orc, as the racial abilities aren't particularly important.

[Red Fel]

As I recall, Shifters are from Eberron Campaign Setting.

Several things about Shifter Druids: Obligatory Shifter Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?225294-3-5-The-Shifter-Handbook-%28WIP%29). Traits: Your best choice of Shifter trait is probably either Dreamsight (+2 Wis and Speak with Animals while Shifting, bonus to Wild Empathy and Handle Animals at all times) or Wildhunt (+2 Con and Scent while Shifting, bonus to Survival at all times). Racial substitution levels: Shifter Druids get them at 1, 4 and 5. Shifter Druid 1 is awesome, Beast Spirit scales with your Druid level (making Druid 20 even more awesome than before). Shifter Druid 4 is excellent, the bonus on Reflex saves is valuable and replaces a mostly-useless ability, while the penalty is offset by your naturally high Will save, duh. Shifter Druid 5 is crap, Wild Shape is way more useful than Shifting. Moonspeaker: The definition of awesome. Full Druid casting progression, Wild Shape progression too, the abilities of your Shifter trait even when not Shifting, and some really powerful summons.
Short version? Awesome. Long version? Full of awesome.

[Vhaidara]

Obligatory Monster Manual 3 mention for Shifters not being Eberron specific

[eggynack]

Obligatory Monster Manual 3 mention for Shifters not being Eberron specific
Sure, though them being good for druids is pretty much races of eberron specific. Shifters without sub levels or moonspeaker don't make for especially powerful druids.

[Fenlove]

Well, I actually found the Volodni (UE), which gives me the Plant type and +2 Constitution, +2 Wisdom, –2 Intelligence, –2 Charisma plus some other things for LA+2, but since my DM says we are going to play without LA...
And I'm gonna run the Saint template for some more wisdom.

Run it by my DM he said it was ok.

Thank you guys for all the help, and specially to eggynack for his WIP handbook, so cool!

[Threadnaught]

Answering a phonecall.

Yo eggy, thanks for picking up the phone, because I called it.


Desert Half-Orc with Racial Substitution levels, ha!



Which flavour of Dragonborn is your favourite btw?

[eggynack]

Which flavour of Dragonborn is your favourite btw?
On a druid, definitely mind. Neither of the other two particularly works with wild shape.

[Threadnaught]

On a druid, definitely mind. Neither of the other two particularly works with wild shape.

Well it sorta depends what you're looking for, doesn't it?

Sure, the Breath Weapon/Wings of the Base Creature won't be of any use whatsoever in Wildshape, but they will allow them to qualify for Feats that are still useful in Wildshape.

You remember Jib Pun the Dragonborn Dragonwrought Kobold with the Kobold Bloodline, right? That thing just optimized (some parts of) Dragon Wildshape.


Of course Heart and Wings are very Feat intensive if you're using either of them on a Druid.



I feel insanely jealous that you get to play as Orcy and I've never had Jib any higher than level 3. Jib is a freaking Dragon, he deserves to be played. :smallfrown:
Besides awesome, how is Orcy anyway?

[paperarmor]

the Jermlaine from MM II is a tiny sized creature who gets a +6 to wis so they pretty cool for druids

[eggynack]

Well it sorta depends what you're looking for, doesn't it?

Sure, the Breath Weapon/Wings of the Base Creature won't be of any use whatsoever in Wildshape, but they will allow them to qualify for Feats that are still useful in Wildshape.

You remember Jib Pun the Dragonborn Dragonwrought Kobold with the Kobold Bloodline, right? That thing just optimized (some parts of) Dragon Wildshape.


Of course Heart and Wings are very Feat intensive if you're using either of them on a Druid.
It's been awhile, though overall, I've gotta figure that a character could be doing better stuff with their feat slots. Druids get one of the best feat lists out there, after all. Also, I'm a fan of the stuff that mind grants, beyond its nature as just the only relevant thing. The scouting shtick fits pretty well, and immunities are immunities.


I feel insanely jealous that you get to play as Orcy and I've never had Jib any higher than level 3. Jib is a freaking Dragon, he deserves to be played. :smallfrown:
Besides awesome, how is Orcy anyway?

He only really saw play in the defense of the fighter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?335445-In-defense-of-the-fighter-12-step-challenge) thread, though he was pretty awesome there. Managed to out-HP a pair of fighters, and a single summons was generally superior to them. It's just a generally hardy and well rounded druid, which seemed fitting for such a test. Too bad I never got to complete that plan I was putting together at the end, using linked perception to just hear everything going on in a nearby town. Nowadays, I think the druid I would throw together in an arbitrary situation would be the aberration themed druid with a vague necromancy subtheme.


the Jermlaine from MM II is a tiny sized creature who gets a +6 to wis so they pretty cool for druids
They are neat, though anthro bats are better in most conceivable ways, which is problematic for their existence.

[Darrin]

You could do Human + Dragonborn... and keep your bonus feat. Read the text carefully on page 10 of Races of the Dragon:

"If your original race granted you a nonspecific bonus feat (such as the one gained by a human at 1st level), any feat can be lost, so long as it is not a prerequisite for another feat you have." (emphasis added)

At Druid 4, take the Iron Constitution ACF from the Cityscape Web Enhancement (archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) to swap Resist Nature's Lure for the Strong Stomach feat. Lose that feat instead of your human bonus feat.

You can also swap an existing feat for Dragon Tail or Dragon Wings... and I think those do remain while in wild shape?

[Red Fel]

You can also swap an existing feat for Dragon Tail or Dragon Wings... and I think those do remain while on wils shape?

I don't believe that they do. A Wild Shape form is typical of a creature of that sort, generally speaking; for example, a Dire Bear doesn't have wings, nor does a Fire Elemental have a tail.

That's why Mind is ideal for a Druid - your Wild Shape may not be able to have wings, or retain your (Su) breath weapon, but it may well keep your (Ex) Blindsense.

[bekeleven]

I don't believe that they do. A Wild Shape form is typical of a creature of that sort, generally speaking; for example, a Dire Bear doesn't have wings, nor does a Fire Elemental have a tail.

Not quite. You keep all feats you have, which is why warforged druids (the best!) can retain their armor by taking a feat that gives it, such as Mithril Plating.

However, you specifically lose movement modes and breath attacks.

[Threadnaught]

You can also swap an existing feat for Dragon Tail or Dragon Wings... and I think those do remain while in wild shape?

You don't retain your physical features when you Wildshape, this includes Natural Attacks and Wings. However, if you have Feats that you qualify for by having the specified physical features, then they should also work in any Wildshape form that also has those features.


Feat intensive, but awesome if you can get good synergy between Feats and forms.


I've gotta figure that a character could be doing better stuff with their feat slots.

Well yeah, but Jib is a 0LA Dragon with Druid Casting at 1st level. It may not be the most optimal thing ever and for full power is heavily reliant on use of Bloodlines, but it'd be pretty fun to play. And isn't that all that's important?


I dunno, there's just something funny about getting a DM to agree to allow a Dragonborn Dragonwrought Kobold with my Kobold Bloodline and then, said DM being surprised when Flight +10 Jump Bonus and Breath Weapon are used.