Is Tarquin the most rational OOTS antagonist?

[...]

I was reading the Giant's book commentaries the other day, and I found a passage talking about how Xykon has more achievable goals than Nale does. I started to think that Tarquin has the most achievable goal of all, as shown in #763, and is carrying it out quite well, as shown in #758. Xykon, on the other hand, shows no interest in figuring out the plot of the story, and his obvious to-be downfall at the hands of Roy, which doesn't seem rational at all, given that strips as early as #23. I started wondering what the rest of the playground thought after I saw post stating a contrary opinion, and I was wondering what evidence for that there was.

[Kish]

My advice is to pay less attention to what Tarquin says his goals are and more to what his actions show his goals are.

His actual goal seems to be "to exert control over everything in his field of perception, forcing everyone to do exactly what he wants exactly how he wants." And that goal is even less achievable than Nale's goals ever were. Offered, "The person you think is the hero of the story leaves to deal with another villain, planning to come back and stop you afterward," which is what he said he wanted, he worked himself into a frenzy because he didn't also have "And that hero is beaten and bloody after his confrontation with the villain, like Luke at the end of The Empire Strikes Back."

[MReav]

Which commentary book are you referring to?

As for rational, no. He considers himself the most important villain of the story and that the story is primarily about Elan, and when reality challenges his perception, he tries to bend it to his whims, sacrificing a small army, cashing in Miron's favour and ask Laurin for one just to make himself look big in the eyes of the narrative.

In essence, he rejects his own philosophy of narrative because he refuses to believe he's a side quest instead of the end boss.

[Keltest]

don't confuse the achievability of their goals for rationality. Tarquin's goal was the simplest of them (relatively) but he had absolutely no idea what his capabilities really were, when he was beaten, and had an overall poor grasp of reality. Xykon on the other hand knows exactly where he stands with everyone and is generally good at recognizing when his current methods don't work.

[Terrador]

The IFCC is absolutely the most rational OOTS antagonistic faction. They have every stake in their own schemes, so they're not misguided; their only execution so far has been flawless, so that's a plus; their goals may be unrealistic, but they may well not be.

Barring that cop-out, though... I'd give this to Kubota. He had almost nothing but his wits, his influence, Qarr, and a few ninja, but dang did he get mileage out of it. Opportunistic, realistic, slippery, and dangerous, even without much personal power... but Vaarsuvius cutting the Gordian Knot isn't something he could've ever been prepared for.

A close second, once we've disqualified the IFCC, would be Bozzok. He has power and leverages it effectively, though I question the decision to throw low-level characters at Haley and Belkar before they were around to act as Bozzok's flank-bait.

As for Tarquin... sure, he's pulling off his scheme well enough at the moment, but it's patently obvious after this arc that his anger and need for control will be his downfall long before he truly lives out his dream. In the words of the shadow monarch himself: "You of all people should be able to see the shape of this." Definitely not our most logical villain. Even Redcloak beats him out, honestly!

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Tarquin's actions at the end of the last book should quite clearly show that he is not the most rational. He may have had lots of success, but I wouldn't consider him rational, given what he believes about his position in the story.

[KillianHawkeye]

I would even go so far as to say that Tarquin has been the LEAST rational antagonist of the comic thus far.

Don't confuse his ability to rationalize his insane ideology with him actually having rational thought. You're just falling into Tarquin's trap if you do that.

Protip: The more you have to rationalize your actions, the less rational they actually are. :smallwink:

[Leviting]

I would even go so far as to say that Tarquin has been the LEAST rational antagonist of the comic thus far.

Don't confuse his ability to rationalize his insane ideology with him actually having rational thought. You're just falling into Tarquin's trap if you do that.

Protip: The more you have to rationalize your actions, the less rational they actually are. :smallwink:

Come on, you can't say that he was any less rational than Tsukiko, who tried to rationalize undead as wonderful "people", claimed level draining and blood sucking was self defense, and focused on necromancy, got both arcane and cleric, and took Mystic Theurge instead of True Necromancer!:smallsmile:

[Emanick]

Come on, you can't say that he was any less rational than Tsukiko, who tried to rationalize undead as wonderful "people", claimed level draining and blood sucking was self defense, and focused on necromancy, got both arcane and cleric, and took Mystic Theurge instead of True Necromancer!:smallsmile:

Yeah, when you put it that way... I think we can all agree that Tsukiko was the least rational OOTS antagonist of all time. :smalltongue: (...Of ALL TIME! I'm just sayin'.)

[Jasdoif]

Yeah, when you put it that way... I think we can all agree that Tsukiko was the least rational OOTS antagonist of all time. :smalltongue: (...Of ALL TIME! I'm just sayin'.)Personally, I'd give "least rational OOTS anatagonist" to Miko. Tarquin (as well as Nale, Xykon, Redcloak, Samantha, Kubota, Tsukiko, the ABD, etc.) understood the need to take action to attain his ideal world view. Miko seemed to assume the world inherently conformed to her view of it at any given moment, regardless of how contradictory that might be from one moment to the next.

[ti'esar]

Personally, I'd give "least rational OOTS anatagonist" to Miko. Tarquin (as well as Nale, Xykon, Redcloak, Samantha, Kubota, Tsukiko, the ABD, etc.) understood the need to take action to attain his ideal world view. Miko seemed to assume the world inherently conformed to her view of it at any given moment, regardless of how contradictory that might be from one moment to the next.

I'll second this - the only consistent element to Miko's world view was that she was always correct. But Tarquin is pretty high up on the list as irrational antagonists go.

[oppyu]

Yeah, when I read the end of Tarkie's arc one of the first things I thought was "There is an antagonist the Giant is portraying as rational with sane motives, achievable goals and a reasonable world view."

[Murk]

Actually, I did think Tarquin was pretty rational - even at the end of the book. It was not so much that he let emotion or honor overrule his ratio as that he tried to achieve emotional goals through rational means. Scheming, plotting or not-giving-up can, if well thought out, be rational. As far as I understand D&D mechanics (which I don't understand very well, but I hope enough), Miron, Laurin and Tarquin should be able to crush the Order. I guess even Laurin and Tarquin should have been able to crush the Order, and Tarquin on its own should at least have been able to kill/damage some before retreating.
All his other plans: well, they worked before the OoTS arrived, and they still work after they left, so in achievability they're not bad.

As to the people saying he is a petty, overcontrolling ruler, well, that is simply not true: he is perfectly happy sharing his rule at least a little bit with his team, ruling through a puppet emperor, letting bounty hunters roam the country, etc. He is only overcontrolling about things that matter very very much to him, and I think that wanting to control those things is essential to caring very very much.

[Aedilred]

I think he's doing pretty well right up until about the point Nale announces he's killed Malack. His initial reaction to the Gate's destruction is to offer the Order help with taking the next Gate, which Elan and Haley turn down for reasons he immediately identifies as pretty silly. On a quest Roy has already identified as "every possible advantage needed", turning down Tarquin's help is in itself rather irrational.

But then Nale drops his bombshell and he loses control of the situation for pretty much the first time. His attempts to regain control then make everything worse. Even so, he maintains a reasonable assessment of his capabilities. Had Julio not shown up out of nowhere, he'd have killed Roy on the ground. If Laurin hadn't got distracted by Vaarsuvius he'd probably have been able to do some serious damage to the Mechane. He does become increasingly more fraught and angry, and burn more and more resources because he's not prepared to let it go.

I think the main flaw is just that he's identified the wrong character as the principal hero. Thinking that's Elan, he invests a lot of resources in trying to get Elan to recognise that (and thinks that since Elan is the hero, he must be the main villain). He also seems not quite to grasp the stubbornness inherent in, well, either of his children, or indeed that Elan is actually Good, and therefore unwilling to use Evil means to achieve his ends. If anything, he's guilty of underestimating Elan's rationality: Elan several times turns down really good offers of assistance just because it's Tarquin offering them.

If he'd twigged that Roy was the main character, he'd have been able to form a much better appreciation of what Elan's - and his - roles in the story were. Whether he's too much of an egotist ever to do that, though, well, that's a slightly different question.

[Hecuba]

In the purest meaning of "rational," yes: Tarquin seems to have a solid idea of what he wants and seems to take the actions he believes represents the least costly path to achieving those goals.

That does not mean he is sane or this his reasoning is logically sound: a person can be both delusional and rational. Rationality is about whether a person's actions indicate conformance to prior reasoning. Their actions can be stupid, self-destructive, self defeating, and even delusional: if they reason out those actions in advance with the intent of reaching a goal, they are still rational.

They are merely also either insane and/or wrong.

Edit: Your answer using this definition may vary, depending on whether you think that his attachment to plot-based decisions represents a questionable strategic choice he thinks will bring about his goals or a compulsive behavior.

[...]

-snip-
I think the main flaw is just that he's identified the wrong character as the principal hero. Thinking that's Elan, he invests a lot of resources in trying to get Elan to recognise that (and thinks that since Elan is the hero, he must be the main villain). He also seems not quite to grasp the stubbornness inherent in, well, either of his children, or indeed that Elan is actually Good, and therefore unwilling to use Evil means to achieve his ends. If anything, he's guilty of underestimating Elan's rationality: Elan several times turns down really good offers of assistance just because it's Tarquin offering them.

If he'd twigged that Roy was the main character, he'd have been able to form a much better appreciation of what Elan's - and his - roles in the story were. Whether he's too much of an egotist ever to do that, though, well, that's a slightly different question.

This was what I thought his biggest flaw was too (even though Elan, albeit not connected to the main plot much, might as well be the main character given the last three story arcs), but you could make a decent argument for him not knowing this due to the rule of Elan's comment in the second-to-last panel of #793.

EDIT: I'm pretty sure it was the Nale chapter in NCftPB that I saw that.

[Reddish Mage]

The IFCC is absolutely the most rational OOTS antagonistic faction. They have every stake in their own schemes, so they're not misguided; their only execution so far has been flawless, so that's a plus; their goals may be unrealistic, but they may well not be.

I don't know about the IFCC's goals being unrealistic, they have not exactly been honest about what their goals are when the spoke to V. They appear to be the most dangerous of the antagonists, in terms of both raw power and they appear to be the cleverest antagonistswith their allusions to having a plan that is moving right on schedule despite having a great deal of moving parts in play.


Barring that cop-out, though... I'd give this to Kubota. He had almost nothing but his wits, his influence, Qarr, and a few ninja, but dang did he get mileage out of it. Opportunistic, realistic, slippery, and dangerous, even without much personal power... but Vaarsuvius cutting the Gordian Knot isn't something he could've ever been prepared for.

That is ultimately why Kubota isn't at the top of my list for rational villains. The IFCC's plans are a mystery but they are on a huge scale, their execution is similarly a mystery (didn't they just lose their pawns back there, they seem non-plussed), and doing things like simply pulling V out of the action for a few minutes seems to underscore their commanding position. Kubota plans were rather simple, obvious, and he played on a small scale, and were all undone by something as simple as a disintegrate spell. It was clear he was small-minded, small-time evil, despite being full of himself and his plots.


A close second, once we've disqualified the IFCC, would be Bozzok. He has power and leverages it effectively, though I question the decision to throw low-level characters at Haley and Belkar before they were around to act as Bozzok's flank-bait.

I agree Bozzok one of the more rational ones. I would defend his decision to use flank-bait as I think those were supposed to be the elite of the guild, and it would be questionable if Bozzok wasn't willing to commit major resources in this effort to get Haley. Bozzok's turf is much smaller than the playground Kubota played on but the number of high level characters in Greysky city is frightening (the whole city must have leveled up in Haley absence)! Bozzok comes across as an effective leader, unlike Kubota, but while he has no reason to go after Haley as he is doing, Bozzok promises to go about the job in a competent manner.

Tarquin is towards the bottom, given that his main power is to work the plot and he had the plot all wrong from the beginning. Xykon is similarly not incredibly rational as he is being played by Redcloak, though his one-dimensional power-through strategy works fine for him. Redcloak is one of the more rational villains, to paraphrase you, his motive may be insane but he is not.

[ORione]

(and thinks that since Elan is the hero, he must be the main villain).

I think it's the other way around. He thinks he's the main villain (because of his ego), so Elan must be the hero.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I don't know about the IFCC's goals being unrealistic, they have not exactly been honest about what their goals are when the spoke to V. They appear to be the most dangerous of the antagonists, in terms of both raw power and they appear to be the cleverest antagonistswith their allusions to having a plan that is moving right on schedule despite having a great deal of moving parts in play.

I definitely agree with this. As far as raw power goes, they are probably the most powerful force actually antagonistic to the Order. Although the directors cannot interfere with the Order directly, they presumably have many in their employ and they have control of Vaarsuvius. So far, their plans seemed to have all worked out for them, although this is hard to judge without actually knowing what their current scheme.

[Math_Mage]

As to the people saying he is a petty, overcontrolling ruler, well, that is simply not true: he is perfectly happy sharing his rule at least a little bit with his team, ruling through a puppet emperor, letting bounty hunters roam the country, etc. He is only overcontrolling about things that matter very very much to him, and I think that wanting to control those things is essential to caring very very much.
The rest notwithstanding, this does not follow. (http://zenpencils.com/comic/156-if-you-love-someone-set-them-free/) One may want to exert control over the things one cares about, and yet find that actually doing so would be petty and over-controlling--that releasing control is a far greater expression of caring. It is this kind of caring that is foreign to Tarquin, the helicopter parent from hell.

[...]

I think it's the other way around. He thinks he's the main villain (because of his ego), so Elan must be the hero.

That's a very good point. I honestly don't understand why people think Tarquin wasn't rational, he had an easily achievable evil scheme, had no doubt in his mind (unlike literally every other OOTS antagonist) that said scheme was going to be foiled, and is basically your average James Bond villain if he new he was a James Bond villain. Some people may say that his huge ego and his even larger bullheadedness is a flaw of his, but I actually think that's a strength in his chosen field.

[FallenFallcrest]

I wouldn't say rational. He is quite delusional. But he is very good at manipulating people so that he can gain something out of any situation, making it look like he is always on top. It is a good fear mechanism, but it is partially an act. As is shown when things don't go according to plan and Elan leaves. He snaps and goes crazy.

[Emanick]

Personally, I'd give "least rational OOTS anatagonist" to Miko. Tarquin (as well as Nale, Xykon, Redcloak, Samantha, Kubota, Tsukiko, the ABD, etc.) understood the need to take action to attain his ideal world view. Miko seemed to assume the world inherently conformed to her view of it at any given moment, regardless of how contradictory that might be from one moment to the next.

Yeah, that's a good point. I think I rather overstated my case (or someone else's, really) there. I'd still consider Miko more rational than Tsukiko, if only because Miko was basically driven off the deep end by a legitimate concern, and before that seemed reasonable in touch with reality; Tsukiko, on the other hand, never displayed much awareness of how OOTSverse really works. But I can see why someone would disagree with that take; comparing various varieties of crazy can be a bit subjective.


I honestly don't understand why people think Tarquin wasn't rational, he had an easily achievable evil scheme, had no doubt in his mind (unlike literally every other OOTS antagonist) that said scheme was going to be foiled, and is basically your average James Bond villain if he new he was a James Bond villain.

To be fair, Redcloak also has some doubts that his plan will end up succeeding. He's repeatedly expressed openness to the possibility that, for example, the Snarl could escape and destroy the world, and that everything he has done will be for naught. He also seems to take the idea that the Order could defeat Team Evil seriously, and accordingly has been shown taking steps to avoid that possibility.

I was actually considering nominating Redcloak for Most Rational OOTS Antagonist for a minute, before I realized that he's basically the living embodiment of the Sunk Cost Fallacy, and regularly displays a number of other hypocrisies to boot. Still, he's quite rational on a number of levels, and if his life had gone differently, he might well have earned that title after all.

[Dalek Kommander]

Yeah, that's a good point. I think I rather overstated my case (or someone else's, really) there. I'd still consider Miko more rational than Tsukiko, if only because Miko was basically driven off the deep end by a legitimate concern, and before that seemed reasonable in touch with reality; Tsukiko, on the other hand, never displayed much awareness of how OOTSverse really works. But I can see why someone would disagree with that take; comparing various varieties of crazy can be a bit subjective.

Tsukiko was lulled into thinking that Redcloak was a spineless, disgraced whipping-boy who would not dare lift a finger against her for fear of Xykon's punishment because that's exactly how he acted in countless previous confrontations, to the point that the vast majority of the forum was just as shocked as she was when he brutally curb-stomped her and fed her to her own wights.

The forum twigged to the fact that Miko was being unreasonable LONG before her loss of paladin status made it completely official.

[Miriel]

Yeah, Tarquin is somewhere around Nale's level.

From SOD, Xykon is less rational/irrational than indifferent.
He went on with Redcloak's plan because he had no evil scheme going on. He never had much interest in the details of the Plan or in verifying if what Redcloak said was true, apart from handing his part of the ritual to an underlying for her to study. Sure, he wants to get it done, and ruling the world or whatever seems fun to him, but that's it. The only thing that matters for Xykon is that he's doing evil things.

Tsukiko's "plan", if that is to get the love of Xykon, may have been bizarre and based on ridiculous premises, but when you think about it, what she does in reality is little more than "super loyal underling wants to impress boss because love" + undead. However weird the reasonning, she's going about it the right way, and nothing she does is as over the top as what Nale or Tarquin do. And that plan isn't even really evil. I mean, real people could have the same plan, if you take out the "I <3 undead" part of it.

[Jasdoif]

Tsukiko's "plan", if that is to get the love of Xykon, may have been bizarre and based on ridiculous premises, but when you think about it, what she does in reality is little more than "super loyal underling wants to impress boss because love" + undead. However weird the reasonning, she's going about it the right way, and nothing she does is as over the top as what Nale or Tarquin do.Yeah. To win Xykon's love, she aimed to prove her usefulness to Xykon, and become his most important minion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0700.html). Deciphering the ritual would support the former and proving Redcloak's disloyalty would support the later (since Redcloak, as the current most important minion, would need to be dislodged from the role); which is why she raided Redcloak's study (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0830.html). While she clearly missed a number of details that were vital (in more than one sense of the word), the plan itself was internally sound.

Most of the antagonists (and protagonists, for that matter) are similar, forming plans to accomplish their goals that make internal sense with what information they have (and are willing to accept). The big exceptions I can think of are Tarquin, who will act against his goals if his obsession on methodology doesn't approve of how they're being accomplished; and Miko, who would accept "information" she didn't have as long as it fit her current state of mind.

[Morty]

Xykon is definitely the most 'rational' of the antagonists, given what we know. He wants to rule the world, and as far as he knows, the Gates will let him do that. So he goes about getting access to them in an exceptionally straightforward manner. Redcloak is suffering from a sunk cost fallacy, and his original plan is honestly more than a little far-fetched. Tarquin is completely delusional, although Miron and Laurin seem to keep their feat on the ground. We don't really know what IFCC want and why yet.

[...]

-snip
Tarquin, who will act against his goals if his obsession on methodology doesn't approve of how they're being accomplished

Well, honestly, it kind of makes sense if you look at it his way, in his knowing that his obsession on methodology has achieved his goals every other time he used it.

[Jasdoif]

Well, honestly, it kind of makes sense if you look at it his way, in his knowing that his obsession on methodology has achieved his goals every other time he used it.I find "I know you'll do what I want you to, but I still have to fight you to make you do it exactly how I want you to do it" to be a little low on sense, in that he chose to risk the goal he'd already attained.

[Emanick]

Tsukiko was lulled into thinking that Redcloak was a spineless, disgraced whipping-boy who would not dare lift a finger against her for fear of Xykon's punishment because that's exactly how he acted in countless previous confrontations, to the point that the vast majority of the forum was just as shocked as she was when he brutally curb-stomped her and fed her to her own wights.

The forum twigged to the fact that Miko was being unreasonable LONG before her loss of paladin status made it completely official.

Oh, that's not what strikes me as irrational about Tsukiko. It's the fact that her entire philosophy of life is predicated on a completely ridiculous, self-deceptive belief. Miko at least shared the same broad, and basically rational, life outlook as did the other paladins of the Sapphire Guard, even if her particular interpretation of it was increasingly twisted by confirmation bias, poor logic and irrational assumptions.

I guess people who begin with a rational goal and get more irrational from there strike me as more "with it" than people who do the opposite. That's an entirely subjective way to see things, though, so your mileage may vary.

[FLHerne]

Tarquin certainly isn't - his fundamental goal (of forcing the world to conform to his version of narrative structure) is both insane and unachievable, although his approach to some of his intermediate plans is much more rational.

Malack, though? :smallcool:
- He has a well-defined goal - to sacrifice as many souls as possible to Nergal.

- His goal is something he can work towards, not an all-or-nothing deal like Redcloak's. The very nature of The Plan forces RC to make poor compromises and take risks, and in the end he either succeeds or fails. Malack can just stab one level-1 Commoner each morning, and still be making gradual progress.

- He has a specific plan that makes reasonable sense. In the short term, he can use Tarquin's empires to produce a substantial sacrifice rate. He has plans to improve this further after Tarquin's eventual death, but those don't involve prematurely destroying his current position.

- He knows the limits of his tools. He's not fooled by Tarquin's evil genius act - Tarquin and the EoB are useful and he tries to keep them intact, but by staying out of the limelight personally he can find some other loony dictator if the buffoon screws up.

His scheme is more rational than Redcloak's and Tsukiko's because he's manipulating people less powerful than himself, without trying to decieve them regarding his intentions, and isn't forced to tie his hands permanently to a single puppet.
It's more rational than Xykon's, or Nale's proposal to seize the Gates, because he's not relying on unverifiable knowledge from a third party.
It's more rational than Tarquin's or Nale's, because it doesn't depend on an unrealistic degree of control.
It's more rational than Tarquin's, Miko's or Tsukiko's, because it doesn't depend on people thinking or acting in a contrived and unrealistic way.

[Angelalex242]

Miko was lost to madness. Her actions are the same as the people in white rooms in the local asylum. Also, she's not actually a villain. Verdict:Not guilty by reason of insanity.

As for the rest:
Tsukiko is actually Vile. Lichloved is a Vile Feat, after all, and that takes a LOT of evil. But her basic premise of 'undead are awesome!' is based on having so much raw evil she considers the superior to living people.

Xykon, being a Lich, is perfectly rational in his conquering schemes. Being an epic lich, certainly nobody has a better, more reasonable chance of conquering the world.

Redcloak, if his goal was to create a city of Goblins, achieved his goal. Achieving the Dark One's goals, however, is beyond his reach.

Tarquin believes himself to be the main villain. Sadly, he is not. The TV Trope for him is actually 'wrong genre savvy.'

[...]

Tarquin certainly isn't - his fundamental goal (of forcing the world to conform to his version of narrative structure) is both insane and unachievable,
-snip-


The first four books prove otherwise. Almost everything in those books confirm to literary structure, whether the OOTS likes it or not.

[ti'esar]

The first four books prove otherwise. Almost everything in those books confirm to literary structure, whether the OOTS likes it or not.

You missed the part where it said his version. And that's not just nitpicking, because that's what I feel makes Tarquin one of the most fundamentally irrational OOTS antagonists - for him, everything has to go exactly his way, even when a different way would still have gotten him the outcome he wants. The Stickverse is certainly a world governed by narrative causality, but that's never going to be good enough for Tarquin because for him the narrative structure has to exactly match his expectations of it.

[...]

You missed the part where it said his version. And that's not just nitpicking, because that's what I feel makes Tarquin one of the most fundamentally irrational OOTS antagonists - for him, everything has to go exactly his way, even when a different way would still have gotten him the outcome he wants. The Stickverse is certainly a world governed by narrative causality, but that's never going to be good enough for Tarquin because for him the narrative structure has to exactly match his expectations of it.

Huh. I think I might need an example for this.

[ti'esar]

Huh. I think I might need an example for this.

As people have mentioned more than once in this thread, the situation after the Gate blew up met most of Tarquin's requirements. Elan and the Order were going to go off and defeat Xykon, then come back and stop him. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0916.html) But because Tarquin was insistent that the story had to go exactly his way, he threw away a bunch of resources for nothing and possibly permanently thwarted his own objective in the process.

[Yendor]

Here's some thoughts from the Giant on Tarquin. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?318550-The-rapid-change-in-Tarquin/page4&p=16575446#post16575446) I'm pretty sure "rational" doesn't fit into them.

Tarquin wants to believe he's always in control, and will do whatever it takes to hold on to that. He puts the death of Penelope down to "mysterious circumstances" because it sounds so much better than admitting he just doesn't know. When he finds the Gate has been destroyed, he claims he would have done it himself. If that wasn't just sour grapes, it illustrates that he can't stand to have something he can't control. When he finds out Malack is dead, it takes a minute to go from, "I had a brilliant plan to manipulate my best friend so I can get Nale back on the team, which I can still do because I can easily sucker Laurin into it" to, "Nale's dead, and what a useless sack of crap he was".

Basically, if he can't control it, and can't ignore it, he'll try to destroy it. He can't manipulate Elan's friends (except Haley, and even that was done out of sheer pettiness), so they have to die. Because Elan has to be forced into the role Tarquin wants. And then Julio and the Mechane show up, and Tarquin completely loses it. Finally, he's reduced to begging Elan to give him a chance to hold onto his illusion of control.

[...]

As people have mentioned more than once in this thread, the situation after the Gate blew up met most of Tarquin's requirements. Elan and the Order were going to go off and defeat Xykon, then come back and stop him. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0916.html) But because Tarquin was insistent that the story had to go exactly his way, he threw away a bunch of resources for nothing and possibly permanently thwarted his own objective in the process.

Isn't that what he was supposed to do in his deranged little half-fantasy? I don't see how he isn't contributing to his overall goal of "being a legend." He might be a control freak, but the strange thing is that being a control freak is getting him his Infamy that he wanted in the first place.

[Keltest]

Isn't that what he was supposed to do in his deranged little half-fantasy? I don't see how he isn't contributing to his overall goal of "being a legend." He might be a control freak, but the strange thing is that being a control freak is getting him his Infamy that he wanted in the first place.

He doesn't want to be remembered as the poor sap general who was so incompetent that he couldn't stop 6 people from leaving the site of an explosion when he had an army on the scene. That's "Infamous funny" not "infamous fearsome."

[Kish]

Isn't that what he was supposed to do in his deranged little half-fantasy? I don't see how he isn't contributing to his overall goal of "being a legend." He might be a control freak, but the strange thing is that being a control freak is getting him his Infamy that he wanted in the first place.
If Tarquin had simply watched the Order leave, smiling "benevolently" after them, he'd still have a much larger fan club on the forum and Elan would still be going, "He's terrible...but so helpful! I can't fight him...but I must!"

As it is, he revealed himself as a lunatic, ended the scene yelling impotently after Elan, lost most of his fan club in a collection of "WTF giant y you have tarquin lose it" threads, and now Elan is going, "He's terrible...poor Nale. I have to stop Dad and I will." Oh, and he lost his good chinabest friend.

[mouser9169]

It all depends on what you mean by "rational".

Rational is not the same as "realistic", "achievable", "successful", or many other adjectives. Logical and consistent would probably be reasonably good synonyms for most people's working definition. Riot mobs are not rational - if you're pissed off at "the man", rational people would get on the bus, go the man's neighborhood, and then proceed to torch everything. Instead, riot mobs torch their own neighborhoods then wonder where they're going to sleep that night.

On the Law/Chaos axis, rational fits squarely on the "Law" side. Doesn't mean that Chaotic people are random or ineffective, just that they are more guided by intuition and impulse. We've seen examples in the strips of both extremes being pushed too far, and both sides having very effective players.

Tarquin has a lifetime of success behind him. He knows his plans are going to ultimately end with him being killed by someone (this is before Elan ever shows up). He's cool with that as the price for decades of opulence and power. He's myopic when it comes to his son, Elan. He actually had a much better gauge of Nale. Even killing Nale was a completely rational act - I was surprised he even _considered_ not killing him: "What did you think the price was going to be...?" Thinking about it I'm not sure it's as much myopia as just not understanding the Chaos (and Good/Neutral) that Elan embraces.

Rational is thinking "lich + ritual + we don't have the ritual = no chance in hell of success." It's the thought process that's always going through Tarquin's mind: the wheels never stop turning, always planning, always looking ahead, always re-evaluating and adjusting. That's why he's been such an effective power for so long (in constrast, we have the example of Shojo, who was a very effective leader for at least as long by flying by the seat of his pants and changing as the winds required).

Tarquin's goal was never for the _Order of the Stick_ to go away then come back and fight him. He knows there's plenty of adventuring parties out there - one of them will kill him eventually. He also knows that there are other people out there, just waiting in a tavern, to step in to save the world if the OoftS fails [cue the white mages].

Tarquin's goal is for ELAN to be a _leader_ who saves the world and defeats him. That's why he was willing to "waste" resources and even call in a favor to achieve it. The fact that he failed miserably doesn't make the goal or his actions any less rational. In fact his perseverance is sort of a testament to it: this isn't some whim he doesn't really care about.

Note that all his other goals and plans are still in place - Haley's "test" to be proved worthy of Elan is still in play. He's still firmly in his position of power. Yeah, some mooks died - he's got plenty. For all the falling damage he took the only thing really hurt was his pride. Laurin popped him back and he's busy watching the next installment of gladiatorial games hoping for more "bonus action" from disgruntled halflings. Plus he gave up a gate he has no use for anyway, and considering what may have happened with Laurin and Miron that might be for the best anyway.

[ti'esar]

I think the vast majority of evidence suggests Tarquin's primary goal isn't for Elan to be a leader, it's for Tarquin to be remembered as a legendary villain. His entire concern for Elan is driven only by how it relates to him, Tarquin - being defeated by his son makes for a better story in his mind then some random adventurer doing it, and Elan's successes again make him look good because he's Tarquin's son. He's the stage dad from the Nine Hells.

[mouser9169]

I think the vast majority of evidence suggests Tarquin's primary goal isn't for Elan to be a leader, it's for Tarquin to be remembered as a legendary villain. His entire concern for Elan is driven only by how it relates to him, Tarquin - being defeated by his son makes for a better story in his mind then some random adventurer doing it, and Elan's successes again make him look good because he's Tarquin's son. He's the stage dad from the Nine Hells.

His primary goals don't have anything to do with Elan. But his goals _for Elan_ involve Elan being a leader - yes, because Tarquin is a leader and that's how he wants his son to be. Remember, this is important because it's part of his legacy.

If Elan wasn't a member of the Order of the Stick, Tarquin wouldn't give two hoots about the Order at all beyond what they did that involved his Empire (or Nale, while he was alive). So his goals weren't being achieved by the Order of the Stick going off to fight Xykon and then returning to fight him later, because that's not something he ever cared about at all.

[Jasdoif]

His primary goals don't have anything to do with Elan. But his goals _for Elan_ involve Elan being a leader - yes, because Tarquin is a leader and that's how he wants his son to be. Remember, this is important because it's part of his legacy.I agree. Still, undercutting his primary goal in favor of a secondary goal, and then undercutting that secondary goal over its exact implementation, strikes me as highly irrational.

[Math_Mage]

Isn't that what he was supposed to do in his deranged little half-fantasy? I don't see how he isn't contributing to his overall goal of "being a legend." He might be a control freak, but the strange thing is that being a control freak is getting him his Infamy that he wanted in the first place.
"Being irrational is still accomplishing his goals" doesn't make him rational, even if we buy that being irrational has done anything to accomplish Tarquin's goals, which I don't.

[mouser9169]

I agree. Still, undercutting his primary goal in favor of a secondary goal, and then undercutting that secondary goal over its exact implementation, strikes me as highly irrational.

That's because you don't place the same value on his different goals that he does. What you call "the implementation", is actually his goal - as he says, "protocol matters".

First, he wasn't undercutting his primary goal. A hundred mooks and a few dino mounts isn't going to make one lick of difference to the Empire. Second, he values Elan as leader as very important. As such, it is perfectly rational to spend a lot of effort to achieve it.

Does he wig out at the very end? Yes, but rational people still have irrational moments, and that situation was carefully contrived to push all of Tarq's buttons - from Elan's comments to Roy, to the sudden appearance of Julio, to Miron vanishing and Laurin caring more and her own personal safety, thus facing V and then vanishing, etc...


And to whoever was asking for an example of the Stickverse following narrative protocols: here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0556.html).

[Jasdoif]

That's because you don't place the same value on his different goals that he does. What you call "the implementation", is actually his goal - as he says, "protocol matters".

First, he wasn't undercutting his primary goal. A hundred mooks and a few dino mounts isn't going to make one lick of difference to the Empire. Second, he values Elan as leader as very important. As such, it is perfectly rational to spend a lot of effort to achieve it.

Does he wig out at the very end? Yes, but rational people still have irrational moments, and that situation was carefully contrived to push all of Tarq's buttons - from Elan's comments to Roy, to the sudden appearance of Julio, to Miron vanishing and Laurin caring more and her own personal safety, thus facing V and then vanishing, etc...I think we're referring to different things. I'm talking primarily about his decision to appear on the airship (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0934.html) at all. Tarquin wanted them to escape, and they were escaping, but he decided to interfere with their escape anyway because they weren't escaping the way he wanted them to escape. And since his primary goal currently involves Elan coming back after finishing his plot (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0763.html), the same plot they were escaping to get back to...interfering with that escape is undercutting his own goal. After all, Tarquin's stated intent to "burn this ship and everyone on it to ash" is hardly conducive to helping Elan escape.

Saying the implementation is his actual goal might make more sense...except as mentioned above, he has a specific state of affairs he's pushing towards, with him as the main villain of the narrative. The use of narrative structure is a tool for that, and risking a tool's purpose for the sake of a tool is hardly rational.

[Smolder]

Rational? T? No. Not by a long shot.

But can he rationalize? Oh, hell yeah! He's capable of rationalizing pretty much anything into proof that he's awesome. Failure? No, he meant for that to happen because it somehow furthers his nebulous goals. This is his strength. He has a tremendous ability to smartly assess any situation, and then bend the facts to fit his demented world-view. Not the actions of a rational person.

If T was rational, he would have done everything to keep the Order thinking he's a good guy (sorry, no flaming letters) until after they secured the gates for him. From the moment he put on the Nope! hood, everything he's done has been self-defeating.

[Super Evil User]

For all the falling damage he took the only thing really hurt was his pride.

That's the thing, though. Pride is everything to Tarquin.

Tarquin's primary driving force is his ego. He's even willing to sacrifice his family just so he can have it sated. I'm sure he was much more affected by it than we would be, if we were in his position.

[mouser9169]

That's the thing, though. Pride is everything to Tarquin.

Tarquin's primary driving force is his ego. He's even willing to sacrifice his family just so he can have it sated. I'm sure he was much more affected by it than we would be, if we were in his position.

Oh, absolutely. He was _personally_ devastated by that defeat. My point was in regard to everything in his life, "that thing" they do so Hannah can be a plumber and all that. His position in the EoB is fine, the Empire is fine, so all of that still goes on for him. He didn't lose anything relating to all the other goals in his life that we know about.

Is he the MOST rational? You could make a case for Miko. She was crazy as a loon, but she acted entirely according to her beliefs of the moment. In a way, that's very rational. Redcloak is a very rational person (almost too rational if he's really Chaotic). His talks to Jirix explaining that Xykon is an ally, but not a goblin. His final "words of wisdom" to Tsukiko (my favoritest character *sniff*).

Personally, I'd go with the IFCC as the MOST rational of all the antagonists we've seen, although we really don't know much about their plan. Redcloak said it best, "How many sides are there?"

[Jaxzan Proditor]

(almost too rational if he's really Chaotic)

He's definitely not. He has Law as a Domain.

[Reddish Mage]

Miko was lost to madness. Her actions are the same as the people in white rooms in the local asylum. Also, she's not actually a villain. Verdict:Not guilty by reason of insanity.

As for the rest:
Tsukiko is actually Vile. Lichloved is a Vile Feat, after all, and that takes a LOT of evil. But her basic premise of 'undead are awesome!' is based on having so much raw evil she considers the superior to living people.

Xykon, being a Lich, is perfectly rational in his conquering schemes. Being an epic lich, certainly nobody has a better, more reasonable chance of conquering the world.

Redcloak, if his goal was to create a city of Goblins, achieved his goal. Achieving the Dark One's goals, however, is beyond his reach.

Tarquin believes himself to be the main villain. Sadly, he is not. The TV Trope for him is actually 'wrong genre savvy.'

Miko is certainly not placed off the hook for her "madness" which is simply the arrogance that she's the only one who sees the truth and knows what needs to be done because nobody else is doing their duty or following the rules (she also thinks she's the "chosen one" of some variety). Delusional, yes, insane, no.

Tsukiko...you can't bring obscure 3rd party sourcebook feats to represent OOTS-verse in-story characterizations. Her love and/or fetishization of undead (particularly a certain lich) is stalkerish, weird, and based off a comically off-based notion about what undead beings are deep down, but it still very human. Tsukiko's love of undead is not full of the horrible twisted depravity of a warped mind that is no longer recognizably human. Ultimately, Tsukiko is just an extremely immature girl who hasn't got over playing with dolls and projecting her desires on them.

Redcloak...he is far more dangerous than you give him credit for. He is willing to destroy the entire universe and have his soul unmade to give the Dark One a chance to form a new universe with a more equal goblin-kind.

Tarquin, you have him dead-to-rights.

[Jasdoif]

Is he the MOST rational? You could make a case for Miko. She was crazy as a loon, but she acted entirely according to her beliefs of the moment. In a way, that's very rational.Yes, she did act entirely according to her belief of the moment. Throughout the comic.

I have to seriously question the usefulness of any standard of rationality that can't measure the impact of a psychotic break.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

...obscure 3rd party sourcebook feats...

While I agree with most of what you said here (and highly doubt that Tsukiko has that feat) BoVD is not 3rd party, and it isn't all that obscure.

[Darth Paul]

I think the answer must be "No."

I ask you: What rational man would own a magic dagger with red pleather wrapped around the hilt? :smallcool:

[evileeyore]

The most rational by far has been the Crazy Old Man with the Cat.

Second to him would be Redcloak.

[tomandtish]

I don't know about the IFCC's goals being unrealistic, they have not exactly been honest about what their goals are when the spoke to V. They appear to be the most dangerous of the antagonists, in terms of both raw power and they appear to be the cleverest antagonistswith their allusions to having a plan that is moving right on schedule despite having a great deal of moving parts in play.



That is ultimately why Kubota isn't at the top of my list for rational villains. The IFCC's plans are a mystery but they are on a huge scale, their execution is similarly a mystery (didn't they just lose their pawns back there, they seem non-plussed), and doing things like simply pulling V out of the action for a few minutes seems to underscore their commanding position. Kubota plans were rather simple, obvious, and he played on a small scale, and were all undone by something as simple as a disintegrate spell. It was clear he was small-minded, small-time evil, despite being full of himself and his plots.



I agree Bozzok one of the more rational ones. I would defend his decision to use flank-bait as I think those were supposed to be the elite of the guild, and it would be questionable if Bozzok wasn't willing to commit major resources in this effort to get Haley. Bozzok's turf is much smaller than the playground Kubota played on but the number of high level characters in Greysky city is frightening (the whole city must have leveled up in Haley absence)! Bozzok comes across as an effective leader, unlike Kubota, but while he has no reason to go after Haley as he is doing, Bozzok promises to go about the job in a competent manner.

Tarquin is towards the bottom, given that his main power is to work the plot and he had the plot all wrong from the beginning. Xykon is similarly not incredibly rational as he is being played by Redcloak, though his one-dimensional power-through strategy works fine for him. Redcloak is one of the more rational villains, to paraphrase you, his motive may be insane but he is not.

In Kuboto's case, lets not confuse power and rationality. Kuboto is relatively low on the power scale compared to most of the villains the Order has faced. But he had well-thought out plans and (within the context of his culture) handled them well. He may be small time, but is very rational. His plans fall apart for two reasons, both of which are beyond his control. One of his minions falls in love (not in his control and not really foreseeable), and one of his opponents (V) is willing to break all of the rules he is used to dealing with. In his world, when the good guys catch you they take you prisoner. And this is the norm. He's not expecting someone to execute him without trial because that's not the way good guys do things. When Elan captures him, he expects to be taken to a trial that he fully expects to win. This is all very rational. What he didn't know (and really couldn't know since he didn't even seem to see V) is that V is not playing by those rules. And I would point that at even at that time, only V and Belkar (if he was there) seem to be the only ones who would be willing to kill him in cold blood like that.

So his whole plan was rational. Just had one faulty assumption at the end: That all the good guys will actually play by good guy rules. Unfortunately, by that time V is rapidly slipping into "not good guy" territory. But Kuboto has no way of knowing that.

The IFCC plans ARE a mystery in the long run. We therefore can't say if they are rational are not. So far they seem fairly rational in their execution, but their end goals may not be rational at all.

As others have commented, Tarquin is good at rationalizing, but not all that rational.

[eilandesq]

Offhand, I'd say the most rational OOTS antagonists were the displacer beasts from #210 who saw the party (which at the time included Miko), realized that they were adventurers--making *them* a random encounter for the OOTS. Which caused the displacer beasts to decide *not* to attack the OOTS and hide until they had passed. Hard to beat that for rationality, and they certainly *intended* to be antagonistic to the OOTS until they realized that it would get them killed. :smallcool:

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Offhand, I'd say the most rational OOTS antagonists were the displacer beasts from #210 who saw the party (which at the time included Miko), realized that they were adventurers--making *them* a random encounter for the OOTS. Which caused the displacer beasts to decide *not* to attack the OOTS and hide until they had passed. Hard to beat that for rationality, and they certainly *intended* to be antagonistic to the OOTS until they realized that it would get them killed. :smallcool:

I find it hard to call then antagonists when they didn't really have much contact with the Order. Most rational monster, perhaps?

[evileeyore]

I find it hard to call then antagonists when they didn't really have much contact with the Order. Most rational monster, perhaps?
Most Rational One-Off Joke. :smallwink:

[Keltest]

While I agree with most of what you said here (and highly doubt that Tsukiko has that feat) BoVD is not 3rd party, and it isn't all that obscure.

Obscure may not be the right word, but I don't believe the exalted/vile deeds sourcebooks are especially popular specifically because they attempt to address many things that are better off being left vague. It kinda defeats the purpose of free will and the alignment system if being good/evil has a handbook.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Obscure may not be the right word, but I don't believe the exalted/vile deeds sourcebooks are especially popular specifically because they attempt to address many things that are better off being left vague. It kinda defeats the purpose of free will and the alignment system if being good/evil has a handbook.

Definitely agreed. I just don't like the use of the term obscure because it implies that the source isn't that heard-off. It may not be used as much, but it is still fairly well-known.

[Kish]

I find it hard to call then antagonists when they didn't really have much contact with the Order. Most rational monster, perhaps?
I detect a Catch-22. Not avoiding a battle with the protagonists is fatally* irrational.

*It just hasn't caught up with Xykon yet, but it will.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I detect a Catch-22. Not avoiding a battle with the protagonists is fatally* irrational.

*It just hasn't caught up with Xykon yet, but it will.

Perhaps one can't have a truly rational antagonist, then.

[MagicalMeat]

With regards to Tsukiko's rationality, keep in mind she is, like 16. I don't think anyone is rational at that age.

[Obscure Blade]

Tarquin is rational so long as everything conforms to his worldview; it's just that when reality and his worldview start to diverge he either ignores it and keeps making decisions as if his view of how the world works was still true, or he tries to force everyone to go along with how he thinks everything is supposed to work. It's not a coincidence that he seemed a lot more rational when he was in the middle of his empire, in a position to mostly successfully force everyone to go along with his idea of how things work. As long as he was in that situation where he called the shots he seemed to be the rational, hyper-competent guy that he originally came across as.

It's when he was out in the desert away from most of his support and with it becoming more and more obvious that he was wrong about what was happening that everything fell apart for him. He started alternating between denying the obvious, and trying to brute force everyone into going along with the story he thought he was in. For example, his mistake in assuming that Elan had to be the hero of the story went from being an amusing error like it was originally, and became something that Tarquin tried to kill Roy and the rest over in order to force Elan to be the main hero Like He Was Supposed To Be.

[Koo Rehtorb]

I don't think Tarquin ever really lost his grip on reality. Sure his priorities may seem screwed up to people, but look at it from his perspective. His primary purpose in life is indulging himself in any way he wants. So he threw away a bunch of low level soldiers, some magical items, and took a blow to his pride. So what? It's not like he can't easily replace any of those things. If you're a selfish hedonist like Tarquin why not spend a bunch of resources trying to get exactly the story you want; what else are you going to do with your time? The only irreplaceable thing he lost was Malack, and I don't think knowingly taking a gamble on trying to save your son's life is particularly irrational either.

Repeatedly going after the Order wasn't even a particularly risky move. Valiant struggle nonwithstanding, he had them beaten. They were only saved by a guy on an airship that's literally called the Mechane. Following them onto the Mechane was the only iffy move, but Tarquin didn't really seem to be in that much danger. Over the course of the arc he's been shown to be fairly near invincible (passing all his saves, shrugging off melee combat, healing at a ridiculously fast pace) and I doubt that he was particularly concerned about dying at any point. Sure he was driven off, but I don't think he was in much danger at any point.

He'll sulk for a few weeks then get over it and get right back to indulging himself however he wants. And it's not like Elan and Co. aren't going to come back for him later anyway, so he still gets his consolation prize.

[goodpeople25]

He'll sulk for a few weeks then get over it and get right back to indulging himself however he wants. And it's not like Elan and Co. aren't going to come back for him later anyway, so he still gets his consolation prize.

If the order comes back, cause there is a anti Tarquin league in the making and being defeated by side characters would be the ultimate slap in the face for him.

Well as long as they don't fight too much with the peoples front against Tarquin.

[skim172]

Tarquin and Elan both believe that life, the universe, and everything all obey a set of arbitrary laws - narrative trope, storytelling cliche, and literary motif rule everything, and have a direct, obvious, and undeniable effect on all events in the universe.

While they're often proved right, my point is that Tarquin bases his life style, aspirations, and actions on the belief that all things must fit the narrative schema in his mind. Which isn't exactly what we'd consider rational. Elan accepts the storytelling contrivance and cliche in his life, but doesn't plan his entire existence on it. Tarquin has methodically plotted out the entire course of the universe based on it. And he does so in defiance of events that disprove his confidence - when things don't go to plan, when Elan defies Tarquin and the chapter ends exactly unlike what Tarquin imagined, Tarquin continues to insist that his narrative is still true.

He reminds me of Red Mage from 8-Bit Theater. Red Mage also insisted that his universe ran on arbitrary laws - in his case, D&D rules - despite continually and painfully being proved wrong.

[Snails]

My advice is to pay less attention to what Tarquin says his goals are and more to what his actions show his goals are.

His actual goal seems to be "to exert control over everything in his field of perception, forcing everyone to do exactly what he wants exactly how he wants." And that goal is even less achievable than Nale's goals ever were. Offered, "The person you think is the hero of the story leaves to deal with another villain, planning to come back and stop you afterward," which is what he said he wanted, he worked himself into a frenzy because he didn't also have "And that hero is beaten and bloody after his confrontation with the villain, like Luke at the end of The Empire Strikes Back."

Well stated.

Tarquin says a lot of things he wants to be true, but are not quite. That seems to confuse some readers, who are swayed by his amiable exterior to ignore lots of overt facts.

He likes to believe his has risen above being a mustache twirling cliche, but when we first meet him he chucks his son's girlfriend out the window for a variant of the "damsel tied to the train tracks" gambit.

[Vinyadan]

I was reading the Giant's book commentaries the other day, and I found a passage talking about how Xykon has more achievable goals than Nale does. I started to think that Tarquin has the most achievable goal of all, as shown in #763, and is carrying it out quite well, as shown in #758. Xykon, on the other hand, shows no interest in figuring out the plot of the story, and his obvious to-be downfall at the hands of Roy, which doesn't seem rational at all, given that strips as early as #23. I started wondering what the rest of the playground thought after I saw post stating a contrary opinion, and I was wondering what evidence for that there was.

Tarquin is quite delusional, as a good control freak.
Redcloak is rational, if you accept that risking destruction of body and soul for a cause to be rational.
Xykon is rather rational: he just does what he can, which is a lot, unless someone drags him into situations he can't handle. What he lacks is the ability to understand that, sometimes, you really need to be prepared, and cannot take unnecessary risks (like in the throne room).
Tsukiko had a lot of delusions.
The Archfiends work on a long shot and seem well orchestrated; they are very rational in that they don't really risk to lose anything.
The ABD failed to completely rationalize, which led her to vengeance.
Nale was a deluded fool.
Malak was rational enough to look for people who could support his plans, but that was an evil fanatic kind of rationality, so that's a whole special class, akin to Redcloak (who may be very sympathetic to his fellow goblins, but also has no problem in risking destroying the whole universe and literally killing every innocent being in the world).
Samantha failed to make good profit calculations. :smalltongue:

I suppose there's a lot more and it could all be analyzed in depth, but I'll leave the honour in more capable hands. :smallbiggrin:

[Aedilred]

He reminds me of Red Mage from 8-Bit Theater. Red Mage also insisted that his universe ran on arbitrary laws - in his case, D&D rules - despite continually and painfully being proved wrong.

I dunno, it worked well enough (http://www.nuklearpower.com/2003/04/29/episode-278-getting-off-on-a-technicality/) when he got it right.

[Math_Mage]

I don't think Tarquin ever really lost his grip on reality. Sure his priorities may seem screwed up to people, but look at it from his perspective. His primary purpose in life is indulging himself in any way he wants.
That might be similar to something Tarquin said. I don't think it's how he actually behaves.

[KillianHawkeye]

He reminds me of Red Mage from 8-Bit Theater. Red Mage also insisted that his universe ran on arbitrary laws - in his case, D&D rules - despite continually and painfully being proved wrong.

Which is interesting when you consider that Red Mage was probably the second most rational member of the Light Warriors.

[Mike Havran]

The most rational antagonist would be the one who acts as outlined by Tarquin in #763. Tarquin himself, for whatever in- and out-universe reasons, has not fulfilled that ideal, but it is there.

That leaves us with Kubota, even though he was only a partial antagonist.

We have no idea whether the plans of IFCC are actually rational.

[Kish]

Which is interesting when you consider that Red Mage was probably the second most rational member of the Light Warriors.
Isn't that rather like, "Second-poorest of the Fortune 500"?

[Aedilred]

Which is interesting when you consider that Red Mage was probably the second most rational member of the Light Warriors.

I think Red Mage might have been the archetypal high-Int, low-Wis character. He was extraordinarily knowledgeable (within certain parameters) and intelligent, but had no common sense whatsoever, over-thought everything, and appeared ignorant of flaws in his plans that even Fighter could point out. His ideas were frequently ingenious, and often worked despite its being obvious to anyone that they were doomed to failure.

Black Mage was rather more in touch with reality, but also cared much less about coming up with any sort of a rational plan because he'd rather just blast his way through the problem in the first place. I don't think there's much argument to be made that Thief wasn't by some distance the most rational of the group, though, apart from a surprising genre-blindness on occasion (not recognising the Dark Warriors, letting RM modify his chocobo, etc.)

[Necris Omega]

I would say Tarquin has a bi-polar rationality.

He's calm, collected, and reasonable... so long as he gets what he wants. And, because he's a talented and successful villain, this makes up the vast majority of him as a character. His goal driven nature results in an extremely practical set of conduct on his part.

However, once a crisis unfolds that deviates from his plans and vision, his rationality takes a back seat to his primal need for control. This compulsion overrides his usual, unflappable sense of practicality in subservience to his slated goals. This ultimately damages his effectiveness resulting in a perpetual loop that sees him stranded in a desert screaming impotently.

At face value, Tarquin's goals aren't actually irrational. He wants power, lasting fame, or both. The problem comes in when he refuses to work around the details, and his incapacity to adapt and deal with deviations in his own plans.