PDA

View Full Version : Detecting Charisma Drain



Thrawn183
2007-03-04, 08:11 PM
I'm writing because a recent situation in my game has me confused.
My bard failed a will save (unbeknownst to him I assume) and had 4 charisma drained, by a grey jester if it matters.

I decided to play my character as not knowing that he'd had his charisma drained, but my DM had apparently thought that I would have "figured it out IC". When we talked about it afterwards neither of us was really sure. I mean, I couldn't cast as many spells per day, shouldn't that be a dead give away? Is it only enchantment spells that you don't realize it when you fail the save?

My DM was nice and pretty much healed it for me, but what are you're thoughts on what should normally happen?

headwarpage
2007-03-04, 08:17 PM
I'd say your character would at least know that something was wrong. He should be able to sort of sense that he 'wasn't himself' or something, similar to when you're tired/hungry/drunk/whatever and you're pretty sure your mind isn't operating at full capacity. A high Int or experience with similar occurences might lead him to pretty much guess what happened.

At the same time, you weren't wrong to play it that way. I don't know that there are any real rules for that sort of thing, so it's pretty much whatever you feel like.

Grey Watcher
2007-03-04, 08:17 PM
Well, since there aren't specific rules stating the character is unaware of the effect, I'd guess that maybe it's a feeling of some kind. Something seems off, and you'd notice it not just with spellcasting, but whenever you use Charisma-based skills and abilities. You have trouble performing those tasks as effectively. Now, you might not know why, but I'd say you realize something's wrong as soon as you try to do anything that uses the relevant ability.

TheOOB
2007-03-04, 08:21 PM
A person who's charisma is drained will be less unique and more subdued. They will fade into the backround where they once took the lime-light. They won't become paticuarly nasty or unpleseant, they'll just be less noticed. Mental stat drains will always be difficult to detect on your self, but can be easier for others to detect. When person A who used to always be the leader and always have something to say starts hanging in the back of the group and letting others make the decisions you know something is up.

Tor the Fallen
2007-03-04, 08:52 PM
I imagine getting an ability score drained hurts a lot. Probably feels like a part of yourself is getting sucked out.

He could always spend those Bardic Knowledge checks on what happened to him.

Aximili
2007-03-04, 08:57 PM
The problem is when your CHA was already high to begin with. A 20 CHA bard who's drained down to 16 will still be more noticed than anyone in the party (unless there's a sorcerer or a paladin). And he will still be far from hanging in the background. But it should still be a change that can be noticed, just don't ask me how easily.


He could always spend those Bardic Knowledge checks on what happened to him.
BK is for unique people/places/items/etc.
It's not for strange feelings, no matter how strong they may be. Unless this feeling is directly related to a unique monster/spell/item/etc.

Tor the Fallen
2007-03-04, 09:26 PM
If monster X does weird thing Y, after which he feels queasy, a little faded, has fewer spells/day, you wouldn't let the Bard make a check to see if he's heard of anything related to his malady?

Aximili
2007-03-04, 09:43 PM
Nope, unless that's some sort of unique or tell-tale monster (like a tarrasque).

Bardic knowledge is a good ability (I like it a lot), but it's not a "all knlowledge skills in one" deal. As the description says:

"...relevant information about local notable people, legendary items, or noteworthy places."


That doesn't even include monsters nor their attacks. (although I'd make the exception to allow noteworthy monsters)

TheOOB
2007-03-04, 10:02 PM
I don't think you'd notice your own mental stat drain the same way an insane person doesn't usually relize they are insane. They don't feel different, theres just something subconsious that makes them less intellegant/wise/charismatic. They might notice dimished magical ability, but they will probally attribute that to their own personal flaws rather then a magical effect.

Tor the Fallen
2007-03-04, 10:13 PM
I think you'd notice being more faded than usual. Charisma is the force with which you interact with the world, and a bard or sorceror would be most in tune with that. With the damage to charisma, you'd feel less connected to stuff, more withdrawn. -4 would be a big drain. With 20 points in charisma, say, -4 is losing a fifth of that stat's ability. That would be like being able to regularly bench 100 pounds, then suddenly fall to 80 lbs.

In this case, all your songs would be off, etc.

Cobra
2007-03-04, 10:19 PM
Insane people frequently know that there is something wrong with them, they just can't do anything about it.

I'd say if you've been drained a lot, you'd clearly notice it. If its just a 1 or 2 point drain, you might just ignore it as being tired or out of sorts. I'd probably give the PC a wisdom check 10 or so to realize something was abnormally wrong.

TheOOB
2007-03-04, 10:40 PM
Hmm, maybe insane would be a stretch, unless we're talking sevear drain here, it would probally manifest more as a complex.

Imagine the bard takes 4 points of charisma damage, all of a sudden he's filled with doubt and uncertainty. He's questioning how he plays his music and faltering on spells that he used to cast with expert proficiency. He still knows the words he used to charm the ladies, but his new lack of confidence makes them seem more hollow and less attractive. He's still usually the center of the crowd, but he just doesn't hold their attention like he used to.

The above situation is a great example of an complex that could be brought along by cha damage, and It would be fun to roleplay.

Mewtarthio
2007-03-04, 11:13 PM
I don't think you'd notice your own mental stat drain the same way an insane person doesn't usually relize they are insane. They don't feel different, theres just something subconsious that makes them less intellegant/wise/charismatic. They might notice dimished magical ability, but they will probally attribute that to their own personal flaws rather then a magical effect.

Int drain:

"Ever since we rain into Lord Smagelnoth, The Mind Stealer, I've been having trouble learning things. I can't really explain it, but I used to be able to call up a piece of trivia out of a book I read in sixth grade, but now I have to study something for hours to get the gist of it. I think there's something wrong with me."

Wis drain:

"Sorry. I can't believe I didn't notice that. I don't know what's wrong with me: I used to be so much more perceptive."

Cha drain:

"I don't know. Something's changed. I feel... dead inside. Like something inside me's been... stolen, or cancelled, or... I know you might not notice it, since I'm still out there partying with the best of them and charming my way out of trouble, but I'm just not as into it as I used to be. I feel like there's this... fog or something between me and everything else."

TheOOB
2007-03-04, 11:40 PM
People tend not to notice things like that about themselves though, especially if the change is slight. If all of a sudden you have trouble learning and remember things, and you just can't perform those arcane rituals as well, your not likely to attribute it to some magical int draining attack (unless you say succeeded a spellcraft check identifying a spell that hit you), your likely to blame yourself and probally get very depressed.

Thomas
2007-03-04, 11:45 PM
With a grey jester, specifically, you'd probably feel depressed, unhappy, less able to enjoy things, etc. Sounds like Cha drain to me. "I shall sing you a song- ... why bother?"

TheOOB
2007-03-04, 11:51 PM
It stands to note that a person with a low cha isn't nasty or outlandish, but rather introverted, submissive, and socially akward. Generally speaking, the higher the Cha, the more likely you are to be noticed and respected. For example dwarves have a penalty to cha because they naturally fit into their tight society in which team effort is more important then individual action.

Hmm, I should play a char with 3 Cha and give him an uber inferority complex a'la Shinji from Evangelion :P

TheOOB
2007-03-05, 12:04 AM
It's fairly well established that charisma has no ramifications on your physical appears other then the fact that charismatic people tend to take more care in making themselves look good.

One of the best ways to tell exactally what a stat does is to make a list of famous movie/anime/game characters who have a paticuarly high amount in that stat, and ones that have a paticuarly low amount and see what they have in common and how they differ.

Aximili
2007-03-05, 05:38 PM
I tend to associate charisma with self-confidance and being energetic/self-motivated (or 'driven by a purpose,' for the 20+ types) more than anything else.
I agree, it's very associated with self-confidence. But not necessarily with being energetic.

The quiet but imposing assassin has a nice cha score (and many ranks in intimidate).

And CHA does have a bit to do with physical appearance. I'm not saying the greater the CHA the hotter you look. CHA doesn't change your physical appearance in any way, but it changes the way people perceive your physical appearance.
It's the difference between being vulgar (not to say worse), and being gorgeous.
It defines if the scar on your face will inspire disgust, or if it'll inspire fear/respect.
It's the difference between looking like prince charming, or just being a handsome guy who seems to think too much of himself.

Thrawn183
2007-03-05, 10:31 PM
Part of the reason I asked this is that it's pretty easy to figure out if you've had a physical attribute damaged or drained. You literally can't lift as much (str) after a few days, you go and ask your cleric what the heck is wrong with you.

But drain doesn't ever go away, if you had a character who never figured it out... ouch.

I've always thought you should explain things with fluff: you have a level drained, its like something is sucking out your life force. I definitely think you would feel it and know something BAD just happened to you. I was wondering what kind of fluff you would ascribe to charisma drain. (My bard had a charisma of 23 by the way :P ) So it wasn't actually hard to roleplay him having 4 less: he still had more charisma than I probably ever will.

SpiderBrigade
2007-03-06, 02:56 AM
It just gets stupid (IMO) when you have spells in the equation, because they give you a concrete measure of a stat. If you're used to being able to cast exactly 5 magic missiles, you're going to notice if you suddenly can only cast 4, today. This is one of the reasons a spell-point system or other non-vancian model can have more verisimilitude.

Other than the spells, though, I'd say it takes a few days to notice, if he's using lots of Cha-based skills. The first few times he fails a check, or doesn't Perform well (the skill), the IC thought would be "wow, I'm just really not on today," in other words "wow, bad luck/rolls." After a few days of this, though, the character would suspect that something was going on - like in the real world, you can have a bad day...but when you have 5 in a row, you might start to think about why.

I also don't think you'd have too much chance to know "wow my Cha was drained, just now." You might feel a generic "energy/ability drain" sensation of tiredness or emptiness, but you wouldn't know it was specifically your Cha that got hit.

The only reason you can usually tell immediately when you take physical ability damage is that such damage is largely Str or Dex (from poisons) and your'e using those abilities all the time to move or attack.

Rolaran
2007-03-06, 04:45 AM
Well, if the effects were severe, I'd probably roleplay it as being similar to apathy.

I'd have my character go from "Alright guys, here's what we do!" to "Yeah, we could do that... whatever... I guess..."

To me, this makes the character less "in command" (because he's just not interested enough in what's going on to take action), less inspiring (because he'd not doing anything dynamic), less capable of using charismatic spellcasting (he just doesn't have as much "spark" as usual), and less attractive and interesting to other people (Well, would you like to hang out with Captain Apathy?).

But for going from 23 to 19? I don't know, I'd say just make him more subdued. And as for the spellcasting, I'm not sure if the bard would notice a difference in capabilities. What are his other mind-based scores like? Maybe he'd be intelligent enough to trace his reduced power back to when it began, or wise enough to recognize that something "unusual" was going on.

My 2 cp.

paigeoliver
2007-03-06, 07:07 AM
I as far as ultra things like that I always sort of went under the idea that the character was always straining for that last bit (although magic missiles would be from level drain, right??). The character can toss of some magic missiles, but that 5th one has always been hard, he only recently learned how to throw the 5th one, and is still getting it down.

The same for tossing off a spell at maximum range, trying to haste as many people as you can, etc, etc.

With the speed that 3.5 characters gain levels they seldom really get a chance to get used to the exact effects of spells that vary in effect by level. Even the character's favorite spell might only see a half dozen castings between one level and the next.

I am also of the opinion that charisma casters are often not completely aware (in character) of how many spells they can actually cast per day. Once they get some levels underneath them they will rarely ever run out of spells, and their capacity is continually changing as they gain levels.

Anyway, the absolute best way to easily show Charisma drain is always have it come with a speech impediment that matches the severity of the drain. A 4 point drain might mean the character gains a lisp, while a 6 point drain could involve a horrible stutter.


It just gets stupid (IMO) when you have spells in the equation, because they give you a concrete measure of a stat. If you're used to being able to cast exactly 5 magic missiles, you're going to notice if you suddenly can only cast 4, today. This is one of the reasons a spell-point system or other non-vancian model can have more verisimilitude.

Other than the spells, though, I'd say it takes a few days to notice, if he's using lots of Cha-based skills. The first few times he fails a check, or doesn't Perform well (the skill), the IC thought would be "wow, I'm just really not on today," in other words "wow, bad luck/rolls." After a few days of this, though, the character would suspect that something was going on - like in the real world, you can have a bad day...but when you have 5 in a row, you might start to think about why.

I also don't think you'd have too much chance to know "wow my Cha was drained, just now." You might feel a generic "energy/ability drain" sensation of tiredness or emptiness, but you wouldn't know it was specifically your Cha that got hit.

The only reason you can usually tell immediately when you take physical ability damage is that such damage is largely Str or Dex (from poisons) and your'e using those abilities all the time to move or attack.

Aximili
2007-03-06, 01:59 PM
Anyway, the absolute best way to easily show Charisma drain is always have it come with a speech impediment that matches the severity of the drain. A 4 point drain might mean the character gains a lisp, while a 6 point drain could involve a horrible stutter.
You can't state a specific effect. You have to consider the Character's final CHA score.

A guy who goes from 23 to 15 CHA would not get a horrible stutter.

SpiderBrigade
2007-03-06, 02:45 PM
See, this is why D&D needs stats for how fast you talk, the largest words you can use, and how often you say "um."

Mewtarthio
2007-03-06, 03:01 PM
See, this is why D&D needs stats for how fast you talk, the largest words you can use, and how often you say "um."

And the diameter of your... uh, pupil.

---

Well, if this guy's dropping from 23 to 19, I doubt many other people will notice. He's still way above normal levels. However, I still think that he would notice that he's no longer quite the person he used to be. As someone else pointed out, he'd have certain amount of apathy. Not enough to make much of an impact on other people, but enough that he'd be unable to put his heart into his spellcasting or influencing or performing as he used to.

Fhaolan
2007-03-06, 03:36 PM
I've sort of always played mental stat drains as something more noticable by the other party members than the affected individual. If it's severe, the affected individual will notice, but in many cases reducing a mental stat might reduce the chance of the individual notcing him/herself. An INT drain, you just can't make the logical leap. A WIS drain, you lack the will to deal with it. A CHA drain, you retreat into yourself.

"Are you okay? You seem a bit out of it."

"I... I'm feeling a bit under the weather, I guess."

SpiderBrigade
2007-03-06, 05:33 PM
I have to say I don't understand why many posters are interpreting a Cha-drained character as being apathetic or depressed-seeming. Charisma doesn't have to mean Mr-outgoing-social-butterfly-all-the-time. In fact I have known quite a few people who were very energetic, talkative, and eminently uncharismatic. Whereas the silent type can still be quite forceful.

Charisma also doesn't mean you care a lot about things, does it? Sure, some high-Cha characters will be very gun-ho about what they're doing, but others could be laid-back, without being any less charismatic.

ExHunterEmerald
2007-03-06, 05:38 PM
I always saw Charisma drain as making you more short-tempered, harder to put your words together, less eloquent on the whole, and just difficult to get your thoughts together.
None of which are exactly correlational to Charisma, but it seemed to work.

Fhaolan
2007-03-06, 05:50 PM
I have to say I don't understand why many posters are interpreting a Cha-drained character as being apathetic or depressed-seeming. Charisma doesn't have to mean Mr-outgoing-social-butterfly-all-the-time. In fact I have known quite a few people who were very energetic, talkative, and eminently uncharismatic. Whereas the silent type can still be quite forceful.

Charisma also doesn't mean you care a lot about things, does it? Sure, some high-Cha characters will be very gun-ho about what they're doing, but others could be laid-back, without being any less charismatic.

In this specific case a gray jester was mentioned as the source of the drain, and apparantly the fluff around that involves depression.

In general though, I interpret Charisma as being the outward-directed force of personality. When someone with truely impressive Cha walks into the room, everyone turns to see because this person's Charisma simply radiates from them. When someone with very low Charisma walks into the room, nobody notices.

It's not what they say, or how fast they say it, but how you react to their presence. A charismatic person can make you back down by just glowering at you. An uncharismatic person could babble all day at you, and you probably wouldn't remember a word the person said, or even that they had been talking talking to you.

So, when someone is drained of Charisma, I would say it would be like someone drawing into themselves. Their presence would diminish. This is something that they might never realize themselves, because it's so much an external effect.

Mewtarthio
2007-03-06, 05:51 PM
I have to say I don't understand why many posters are interpreting a Cha-drained character as being apathetic or depressed-seeming. Charisma doesn't have to mean Mr-outgoing-social-butterfly-all-the-time. In fact I have known quite a few people who were very energetic, talkative, and eminently uncharismatic. Whereas the silent type can still be quite forceful.

Charisma also doesn't mean you care a lot about things, does it? Sure, some high-Cha characters will be very gun-ho about what they're doing, but others could be laid-back, without being any less charismatic.

The example given was a bard, and bards tend to use Charisma in social situations. Additionally, Charisma generally represents force of personality, so someone suffering from Charisma drain would be at the very least more subdued and docile.

Indon
2007-03-06, 05:58 PM
Personally, I have difficulty thinking they wouldn't notice almost immediately.

The rules imply that you can sense the intent of hostile magic, even if it never affects you (you make a save against something you were unaware of). This implies that if something supernatural or spell-like hits you and you fail, then you _definitely_ know something's up.

The question is only, does the character realize that what is happening is actively supernatural in nature? From what I can tell from the thread, it seems rather subtle; personally, if I wanted to RP being ignorant of the effect, I'd RP being ignorant of the source, not the affliction. I'd have my character pretend he's just a bit 'under the weather', and that it'll no doubt go away soon, essentially denying the magical nature of the effect.

But I don't think I could deny the effect itself, regardless of how subtle it is; it is an attack on who you are, and you know yourself.

Thrawn183
2007-03-07, 08:28 AM
But for going from 23 to 19? I don't know, I'd say just make him more subdued. And as for the spellcasting, I'm not sure if the bard would notice a difference in capabilities. What are his other mind-based scores like? Maybe he'd be intelligent enough to trace his reduced power back to when it began, or wise enough to recognize that something "unusual" was going on.


His int is 16 and his wisdom is 8. I was thinking the best way to roleplay the stats would be that he is smart enough to figure out something happened to him, but not wise enough to realize it was the "woman" trying to seduce him.

Oh, and I leveled up to 8 at the end of the session. Hello charisma of 24!

Golthur
2007-03-07, 11:05 AM
See, this is why D&D needs stats for how fast you talk, the largest words you can use, and how often you say "um."

And F.A.T.A.L. comes up again :amused: