Pathfinder Conversion Theatre - Crawling Claw (MC:MoF) Edition

[unseenmage]

Would someone be willing to convert the Create Crawling Claw spell from Monstrous Compendium: Monsters of Faerun and the creature it creates from 3.0 to Pathfinder for me? (Be aware that there is errata somewhere that makes the spell instead create a Swarm. I suspect that the Swarm version is the more balanced of the two.)

Need them for a Hoardificer and am a Pathfinder newbie. On top of all that I'm swamped with other projects at the moment.
The Minor Servitor spell from Savage Species would be a boon as well.

Folk should feel free to use this thread to convert any other Constructs and Construct related spells too. Would be nice to have a repository of such to draw from. :smallsmile:

My apologies if this is a bogus request.
I'm not sure yet if converting to PF involves mostly formatting changes to statblocks or if there are some hard rules that would need attention.

[Psyren]

Unfortunately I'm AFB so I won't be able to help with this until later tonight. But the steps would be to first update it to 3.5 and then update it to PF. There are conversion guides to both approaches but the Playground has done it enough times that it should be easy.

Also, there is a Crawling Claw in Lost Empires of Faerun, which is 3.5 - are they the same? That might simplify step 1 for you.

[unseenmage]

I believe the Lost Empires of Faerun version is some gigantic monstrosity compared to the animated hands in Monsters of Faerun.
IIRC the errata I mention above could even be the 3.5 conversion. Not sure though...

[caimbuel]

Crawling Claw
Crawling Claw

Species Traits

Construct: Crawling claws have the traits and immunities common to constructs.

Gaze Immunity (Ex): Because it lacks eyes, a crawling claw is immune to gaze attacks.

Smite Fallen (Ex): A crawling claw’s attacks deal double damage against prone combatants.

Crawling Claw: CR 1/3; Diminutive construct; HD 1d10; hp 5; Mas —; Init +0; Spd 20 ft.; Defense 15, touch 14, flat-footed 15 (+4 size, +1 natural); BAB +0; CMB 0, CMD 10; Atk +4 melee (1, claw); Full Atk +4 melee (1, claw); Reach 0 ft.; SQ construct, gaze immunity, smite fallen, SR 10; AL any; SV Fort +0, Ref +0, Will –3; Str 10, Dex 10, Con —, Int —, Wis 5, Cha 5.

Skills: None.

Feats: None.

Advancement: None.

Create Crawling Claw

Transmutation [Evil]

Level: Sorcerer, Wizard, Witch 3; Components: V, S, M; Casting Time: 1 hour; Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels); Targets: Severed human left hands within a 5-foot-radius circle; Duration: Instantaneous; Saving Throw: None; Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)

You create a number of crawling claws up to twice your caster level. The hands to be transformed must all be within a 5-foot-radius circle. Once created, the group of crawling claws obeys your telepathic commands as long as the instructions are simple and you are within 100 feet. If you give the crawling claws simple standing orders before moving out of range, they obey these orders to the best of their ability until you return and issue new orders. Otherwise, they mill about aimlessly, attacking anything that moves into their space.

Material Component: Clippings from a ghoul’s fingernails, and a ring that someone else lost.


This is my take on it

[Psyren]

Ok, I checked both Monsters of Faerun (3.0) and Lost Empires of Faerun (3.5). Based on the fluff and stats, I'm 90% sure that the LEoF version is intended to be an update of the MoF version.

Both are constructs - the MoF version is a Diminutive while the LEoF version is Tiny. (More on this later.) The fluff of the MoF version is that it "attacks in swarms" - however, swarms didn't really exist mechanically in 3.0, and so the stats given in that book are for a single hand, with the DM expected to attack with enough of them to be a credible threat. With each hand doing 1 point of damage with its lone attack and having stats worse than a housecat, and bonus damage to prone enemies with no way to make them prone, it's all in all clunky at best.

The LEoF version, however, was converted into a swarm - a much more deadly and sensible combatant that actually reflects the fluff and makes them a credible threat. Ergo, that is the one I'll convert.
The likely reason it was bumped up to Tiny is so you can still attack the individual hands like you could in 3.0. (Diminutive and Fine swarms are immune to all weapon damage.)


Crawling Claw CR 2
XP 600
N Tiny Construct (Swarm)
Init +0 Senses Blindisght 60ft.

DEFENSE
AC 14, touch 12, flat-footed 14; (+2 natural, +2 size)
hp 27 (5d10)
Fort +1, Ref +1, Will -2
Defensive Abilities swarm traits (half weapon damage from slashing and piercing attacks); Immune construct traits
Weakness swarm traits

OFFENSE
Speed 20 ft.
Melee swarm (1d6)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 0 ft.
Special Attacks distraction (DC 12)

STATISTICS
Str 10, Dex 10, Con —, Int —, Wis 5, Cha 1
Base Atk +5; CMB —; CMD —
Feats —
Skills —

ECOLOGY
Environment Underground
Organization solitary, pair, or applause (3–4 swarms)
Treasure none

SPECIAL ABILITIES
Sightless (Ex): Crawling Claws are blind and not affected by any effect that relies on sight, such as gaze attacks or blindness.
Smite Fallen (Ex): Crawling Claws deal double damage against prone combatants.

[unseenmage]

Very cool, thank you both.
Two questions though...

Is the Lost Empires of Faerun version still creatable via a spell?
Did you see the errata for Monsters of Faerun that also turns it into a swarm?

[Psyren]

Is the Lost Empires of Faerun version still creatable via a spell?

Yes - you need 3 humanoid hands, Craft Construct, three spells (animate dead, lesser geas and cat's grace) plus some other stuff. The full details can be found on LEoF 164.



Did you see the errata for Monsters of Faerun that also turns it into a swarm?

No, but that would be superseded by LEoF anyway as it came out later.

[unseenmage]

Yes - you need 3 humanoid hands, Craft Construct, three spells (animate dead, lesser geas and cat's grace) plus some other stuff. The full details can be found on LEoF 164.



No, but that would be superseded by LEoF anyway as it came out later.

Thanks again. I was completely unaware of the Lost Empires of Faerun update. I appreciate the help. Will the spell's statblock require any fixing to be usable in PF? Sorry, saw that you gave me the page number. I meant via a single spell like the 3.0 version. I'll assume not though as you responded with the Item Creation stuff.

[Segev]

Is anybody else bothered by the fact that these are constructs, and not undead? They really seem like they should be undead, to me.

[unseenmage]

Is anybody else bothered by the fact that these are constructs, and not undead? They really seem like they should be undead, to me.

They get that a lot it seems. Every time I bring them up in fact. So yeah, a lot of people are.
I like it though. With the original 3.0 version you literally anmated any pile of severed left hands. By RAW they could even be the severed hands of statues or golems.

[Psyren]

Thanks again. I was completely unaware of the Lost Empires of Faerun update. I appreciate the help. Will the spell's statblock require any fixing to be usable in PF?

Er... what do you mean? All those spells exist in PF, so you would just use those versions. Even if the spells changed, that won't matter if you're using them to craft.

In fact, it's actually easier to make them in PF because there are no XP costs.


Is anybody else bothered by the fact that these are constructs, and not undead? They really seem like they should be undead, to me.

Yeah, particularly since you need animate dead to make them. But there are disembodied undead hands in other sources (LM?) if you want those. Faerun is weird.


By RAW they could even be the severed hands of statues or golems.

Not in LEoF, you specifically need Humanoid hands (Medium or Small.)

[unseenmage]

In Monsters of Faerun it takes only a single spell, Create Crawling Claw to make a pile of animated severed hands into Constructs.

It is this 'make Construct(s) with a spell' utility that I was aiming for. The Create Crawling Claw spell is low enough level to be put into Spellsong Nightingales (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cw/20070115a) or Spellstitched (MM2) undead.

I was considering trying to find a way to put said spell into a Homunculus as a SLA via the Pathfinder rules for Improved Homunculi (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/constructs/homunculus). Which is another reason why I wanted an objective conversion of the spell and creature too. I didn't want my bias to make it into something it's not supposed to be.

[Segev]

It's partially that they're just created with a spell (no construction elements required, unlike even the simple Bogun) that bugs me, I think. "created by casting a spell" is more an undead pattern than a construct one.

That IS interesting that somebody noted any "severed left hand" would do, even from a statue.


Why do you want constructs-from-spells (as opposed to undead-from-spells, or outsiders-from-spells, or elementals-from-spells, etc.) specifically?

[unseenmage]

It's partially that they're just created with a spell (no construction elements required, unlike even the simple Bogun) that bugs me, I think. "created by casting a spell" is more an undead pattern than a construct one.

That IS interesting that somebody noted any "severed left hand" would do, even from a statue.


Why do you want constructs-from-spells (as opposed to undead-from-spells, or outsiders-from-spells, or elementals-from-spells, etc.) specifically?

Because the other spells that make Constructs such as Animate Objects, Minor Servitor (SS), and Awaken Sand (Sa) are cool. (The psionic powers that do the same are really cool too. :smallsmile: Don'ty feel bad psionics, I didn't forget you.)

Because Constructs made with spells can accrue over time into a sizable army. Because this is for a Kingdom Building game.
And honestly because it was the easy-button solution to making a Hoardificer in a system I'm just becoming familiar with.

Though in the time it's taken to hash this one detail out I have also gotten halfway through putting every other PF Construct into a spreadsheet to compare their costs and stats. (That's not a criticism by the way, would have taken me many times longer to muddle through the conversions you guys have produced.)

[Psyren]

The spell doesn't seem to have been updated anywhere so you should be good to port it in from 3.0.

[unseenmage]

The spell doesn't seem to have been updated anywhere so you should be good to port it in from 3.0.

Some other time perhaps. Today's docket is full up. I've been posting in between digging out MtG cards to take to GenCon and doing laundry. And I'm supposed to introduce an IRL friend to D&D 3.x this evening too. And MtG Game Day is tomorrow.

IIRC PF doesn't do xp costs. Is that the only change that will need to be made?

Additionally, in your opinion is the Create Crawling Claw spell too powerful as it stands?

Would a right and proper conversion incorporate the spells involved in a Crawling Claw's creation in LEoF into the spell like the Beget Bogun spell has various other spells in it's listing?

[Psyren]

My thought is that they purposefully did not update that spell themselves because it's a bit silly. Every casting gives you 2*CL Claws and there is neither an XP or expensive material component to stop you. If you tie up a few trolls or something they can even keep regrowing hands for you to grey goo the planet.

If I were to bring this in from 3.0, this would be a prime candidate for some of the "minor adjustments" mentioned in the PHB.

[unseenmage]

My thought is that they purposefully did not update that spell themselves because it's a bit silly. Every casting gives you 2*CL Claws and there is neither an XP or expensive material component to stop you. If you tie up a few trolls or something they can even keep regrowing hands for you to grey goo the planet.

If I were to bring this in from 3.0, this would be a prime candidate for some of the "minor adjustments" mentioned in the PHB.

Such as giving it the Beget Bogun treatment in addition to having it require enough hands to make the swarm it's supposed to make I'd guess.

[Segev]

Yeah, mechanically, I suppose "a ring lost by somebody else" is not an expensive component and so you have as many of them as you want, costlessly, though I could see a DM requiring you to actually explain where you get enough of those to mass-produce. An RP challenge, mostly, I think.

Of course, Eschew Materials makes this trivial; now your limit is getting the hands. Craft:woodworking might be sufficient to achieve that. If not the troll idea somebody else mentioned (if you're willing to be evil like that).

[unseenmage]

Yeah, mechanically, I suppose "a ring lost by somebody else" is not an expensive component and so you have as many of them as you want, costlessly, though I could see a DM requiring you to actually explain where you get enough of those to mass-produce. An RP challenge, mostly, I think.

Of course, Eschew Materials makes this trivial; now your limit is getting the hands. Craft:woodworking might be sufficient to achieve that. If not the troll idea somebody else mentioned (if you're willing to be evil like that).

Evil, or just play a troll. :smallcool: