Build Advice for a New to Pathfinder Player

[ArcanistSupreme]

I'm currently DMing Rise of the Runelords for some of my friends in real life, and we managed to talk one of our buddies (who has never played Pathfinder/D&D/tabletop RPGs) into joining us. He decided to go Rogue while the other, more experienced players went with higher-tier classes like Wizard and Psychic Warrior. Now the campaign has gone on for several months, and while everyone is enjoying the *Role* Playing aspect, the new guy has expressed some disappointment in how his character is performing in the *Roll* Playing department.

I like to think of myself as a permissive DM, and I've told him that I would be willing to throw him a few extra wands to UMD, give him a template or two, adjust encounters as best I could (RotRL is already geared toward less optimized players), or let him rebuild entirely if he really wanted to, and he's opted to rebuild. He picks up on new rules fast (he plays lots of video game RPGs), but he just isn't familiar with the sheer volume of available material and how it all interacts. I've offered him a few suggestions, and I also told him that I'd pop over here to see if we could get him any more sage advice.

Content Available:
All official Paizo material and anything published by Dreamscarred Press.

The Character:
A half-elf loner type. He's had to struggle to care for his family by himself, and he's just starting to trust others. Fluff-wise, he sees the character as an opportunistic fighter that relies on skill rather than brute force.

Set in Stone:
Must be Half Elf
Must use Elven Curve Blade (using Weapon Finesse and Dervish Dance [handwaved to work with the curve blade] for Dex to attack and damage)
Must have the ability to disable magical traps

Things that he Would Like if Possible:
Stealth
Self-buffs/abilities (rather than team-oriented)
General Skill-monkeyishness

I've suggested a Dawflower Dervish Bard using Martial Study I-VI (from Path of War) to pick up Veiled Moon maneuvers, as well as just going straight Stalker (also from PoW). Ninja has also been bandied about, and I bet that a Cleric with the Trickery Domain could do well (although I don't think he would like the divine flavor even if we refluffed it).

tl;dr
What classes, feats, templates, spells, and builds lend themselves to the concept of an opportunistic fighter that relies on skill rather than brute force?

[jaydubs]

Dervish of Dawn sounds like a good way to go. There are a few good bard guides already out there he should take a look at if he goes that route.

For magical traps, let him pick up Trap Finder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/campaign-traits/mummy-s-mask/trap-finder). It's technically a campaign trait, but I've never particularly liked the whole "must have trapfinding" niche protection.

He probably still wants 13 strength to get power attack, unless you want to be even more generous and let him use piranha strike with the elven curve blade. (It normally requires light weapons.) Arcane strike is always handy, and there are ways to pick it up with spell-like abilities if he doesn't end up an arcane caster.

[Secret Wizard]

There's a Trait that allows you to disable magical traps too. An interesting idea would be going Ranger with the Trapmaker and Wild Shadow archetypes. You can get Power Attack and Furious Swings (I think that's what that feat was called) without having to qualify for them.

Plus, between traps and the Wild Shadow's abilities to harry enemies, that could be pretty fun.

[Beowulf DW]

Dawnflower Dervish with Path of War feats sounds like a good way to go, but for a selfish buffer that can sneak attack, I'd recommend Vivisectionist Alchemist. I've also seen Arcane Trickster and Eldritch Knight do some incredible things in that adventure path. I was the Eldritch Knight, incidentally, using the ECB as well. I once ended an encounter on my own (even though I did get blinded briefly), and the Arcane Trickster actually killed a dragon by himself.

For the Eldritch Knight path, I'd recommend either Lore Warden Fighter/Wizard or Sage Sorceror or the unorthodox combination of Sohei Monk/ Empyreal Sorceror.

Stalker from DSP could also work.

[Cowardly Griffo]

I'd suggest Cryptic (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/cryptic). All the rogue flavor and abilities, only you get psionics and an eldritch blast kind of a thing instead of sneak attack. A lot of the psionic powers are nicely self-focused, and the trap-laying aspect lends itself very well to a more-smart-than-strong style of combat.

[avr]

If you're using Path of War anyway, why not go with Stalker? It describes the character perfectly from what I can see, and it means less new systems to interact with. This can be an issue even for experienced players.

[ArcanistSupreme]

Dervish of Dawn sounds like a good way to go. There are a few good bard guides already out there he should take a look at if he goes that route.

For magical traps, let him pick up Trap Finder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/campaign-traits/mummy-s-mask/trap-finder). It's technically a campaign trait, but I've never particularly liked the whole "must have trapfinding" niche protection.

He probably still wants 13 strength to get power attack, unless you want to be even more generous and let him use piranha strike with the elven curve blade. (It normally requires light weapons.) Arcane strike is always handy, and there are ways to pick it up with spell-like abilities if he doesn't end up an arcane caster.

Would you be able to point me to these bard guides? The only one I've come across is the TreantMonk one. It's good, but it seems a bit dated.

I've already shown him the Trap Finder trait, but all of my players really, *really* like the +2 Initiative traits (and their other trait had to be a Campaign Trait to encourage some RP), so I was exploring options.


There's a Trait that allows you to disable magical traps too. An interesting idea would be going Ranger with the Trapmaker and Wild Shadow archetypes. You can get Power Attack and Furious Swings (I think that's what that feat was called) without having to qualify for them.

Plus, between traps and the Wild Shadow's abilities to harry enemies, that could be pretty fun.

I'll show him the Wild Shadow, but I think that his character may be too much of a city slicker for that route. It's a pretty neat class, though.


Dawnflower Dervish with Path of War feats sounds like a good way to go, but for a selfish buffer that can sneak attack, I'd recommend Vivisectionist Alchemist. I've also seen Arcane Trickster and Eldritch Knight do some incredible things in that adventure path. I was the Eldritch Knight, incidentally, using the ECB as well. I once ended an encounter on my own (even though I did get blinded briefly), and the Arcane Trickster actually killed a dragon by himself.

For the Eldritch Knight path, I'd recommend either Lore Warden Fighter/Wizard or Sage Sorceror or the unorthodox combination of Sohei Monk/ Empyreal Sorceror.

The Alchemist is a good call, but the others may be a little too castery for how I think he wants to play it. I'll show him anyway and let him decide.


I'd suggest Cryptic (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/cryptic). All the rogue flavor and abilities, only you get psionics and an eldritch blast kind of a thing instead of sneak attack. A lot of the psionic powers are nicely self-focused, and the trap-laying aspect lends itself very well to a more-smart-than-strong style of combat.

Is there a good handbook out there for that class? I've only found one, and it's incomplete.


If you're using Path of War anyway, why not go with Stalker? It describes the character perfectly from what I can see, and it means less new systems to interact with. This can be an issue even for experienced players.

I've shown him the Stalker already, and he likes it a lot. The only issue that may come up is that the class wants high Wis as a secondary stat, and his character is more of the insensitive, selfish, and brash type that seems to clash with high Wis in my mind. I would allow it, but it seems weird.

[Kudaku]

Bard seems like a good option, but if he wants something a little less magical he should give the Slayer a read-over. Based on how the character is described, I think the class could serve him well.

[jaydubs]

Would you be able to point me to these bard guides? The only one I've come across is the TreantMonk one. It's good, but it seems a bit dated.

I've already shown him the Trap Finder trait, but all of my players really, *really* like the +2 Initiative traits (and their other trait had to be a Campaign Trait to encourage some RP), so I was exploring options.

Here (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ogz8HL6GeguT-tN3-6HxXiF_G7mg_tyAQ59V9kPg6g4/edit?pli=1) is the other guide. It doesn't detail the dawnflower dervish specifically, but has some more up to date advice on spells, feats, and such.

You might also point him toward the archaeologist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard/archetypes/paizo---bard-archetypes/archaeologist) bard archetype, which naturally gets the ability to disable magical traps. A noticeable disadvantage is that it doesn't get extra rounds of performance when leveling up, but the half elf favored class bonus adds +1 per level. Or allow a drawback (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/drawbacks) to pick up another trait. Failing that, there is always the feat (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/additional-traits) that lets a character pick up two extra traits.

[caimbuel]

Seeker Sorcerer going Dragon disciple or Eldritch Knight could also be fun, seeker gives the sorc full trap abilities. You could also work the ability to use int as casting for more skill uses.

But unless traps are a major thing in the campaign the player may get a bad taste in his mouth as most traps are meh at best.

[avr]

I've shown him the Stalker already, and he likes it a lot. The only issue that may come up is that the class wants high Wis as a secondary stat, and his character is more of the insensitive, selfish, and brash type that seems to clash with high Wis in my mind. I would allow it, but it seems weird.
Wisdom can mean strong willed and perceptive in D&D/PF rather than terribly sensible. For a loner it'd fit better than high Charisma in my mind, unless the character had been played as really foolish already. Brave and confident doesn't have to mean low Wis.

[Jigawatts]

Slayer from the Advanced Class Guide, Stalker from Path of War, or Cryptic from Ultimate Psionics. All 3 are vastly better than the core Rogue.

If he decides that he doesn't want to deal with spells/powers/maneuvers then Slayer is the way to go, awesome class.

[ArcanistSupreme]

Bard seems like a good option, but if he wants something a little less magical he should give the Slayer a read-over. Based on how the character is described, I think the class could serve him well.

It looks like a solid Tier 4 class. Not a huge bump in power, but it looks better than the rogue.


Here (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ogz8HL6GeguT-tN3-6HxXiF_G7mg_tyAQ59V9kPg6g4/edit?pli=1) is the other guide. It doesn't detail the dawnflower dervish specifically, but has some more up to date advice on spells, feats, and such.

You might also point him toward the archaeologist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard/archetypes/paizo---bard-archetypes/archaeologist) bard archetype, which naturally gets the ability to disable magical traps. A noticeable disadvantage is that it doesn't get extra rounds of performance when leveling up, but the half elf favored class bonus adds +1 per level. Or allow a drawback (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/drawbacks) to pick up another trait. Failing that, there is always the feat (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/additional-traits) that lets a character pick up two extra traits.

Nice! I'll point him toward those. It's a shame that the guide doesn't do well on phones.


Seeker Sorcerer going Dragon disciple or Eldritch Knight could also be fun, seeker gives the sorc full trap abilities. You could also work the ability to use int as casting for more skill uses.

But unless traps are a major thing in the campaign the player may get a bad taste in his mouth as most traps are meh at best.

I think he wants at least medium BAB, but I'll make sure that he sees all of his options.


Wisdom can mean strong willed and perceptive in D&D/PF rather than terribly sensible. For a loner it'd fit better than high Charisma in my mind, unless the character had been played as really foolish already. Brave and confident doesn't have to mean low Wis.

I'm not saying high Charisma (he'll probably have around 12 starting out and focus on buff and utility spells). The character as I've seen it so far seems charming and likable, but lacking empathy and trust (okay Cha, low Wis in my mind). But again, more of a minor hiccup than a real issue.


Slayer from the Advanced Class Guide, Stalker from Path of War, or Cryptic from Ultimate Psionics. All 3 are vastly better than the core Rogue.

If he decides that he doesn't want to deal with spells/powers/maneuvers then Slayer is the way to go, awesome class.

All of these are solid contenders. Does anyone know of a good Cryptic guide or have any general advice for the class?