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Vhaidara
2014-08-06, 11:19 PM
So, I just finished watching Buffy the Vampire Slayer again (second time start to finish), and I am kind of curious how the Playground would build Buffy and other Slayers? I feel there is a multi step process for this.

1. Build a Slayer template that can be applied to the character. This represents the innate power of the Slayer. Probably a moderate LA, and some huge Physical stat buffs (I estimate probably around mid 20s to low 30s for physicals), and smaller mental stat buffs (+2 or +4), along with bonuses to perception, and a small bonus to move speed (+5/10)

2. Build Buffy: The variety of stuff she can do to me implies Gestalt, so that's what I'm thinking. She's competent unarmed, so no monk. I've gotten it into my head that it would be something like Unarmed Swordsage//Warblade, with maneuvers primarily from Setting Sun and Iron Heart, with some Tiger Claw boosts, Stone Dragon strikes, and Diamond Mind counters. In the last season, she picks up some White Raven, but not until then. Level dip in Exoticist Fighter for 4 floating EWPs because of Warblade

3. Not entirely necessary, but build the Scythe (http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100424194103/buffy/images/7/7f/Buffy-scythe.jpg). Dwarven Urgosh is a good starting point, but the scythe can also be used like a bladed gauntlet, gripping near the blade. Possibly a new triple weapon type?

So, anyone want to help with this?

Snowbluff
2014-08-06, 11:25 PM
How about some rogue, with that ACF to affect undead with SA?

Also, I love the monk crack. Good work.

Vhaidara
2014-08-06, 11:28 PM
How about some rogue, with that ACF to affect undead with SA?

Maybe, but she really isn't much more effective when she gets the jump than when she doesn't. I'd say a lot of the increased effectiveness can be accounted to the vamp having a high Dex (lost because flat-footed).


Also, I love the monk crack. Good work.

I'll be here all week.

Aliek
2014-08-07, 12:32 AM
(this is from someone who never watched the show, so take that with a grain of salt)
How about a tashalatora monk/psychic warrior/slayer?

Vhaidara
2014-08-07, 12:34 AM
Potential, but too magicy. Buffy is superhuman, but not psychic. Except in that one episode. She's really just an exceptionally physically superior human

Snowbluff
2014-08-07, 12:44 AM
Maybe, but she really isn't much more effective when she gets the jump than when she doesn't. I'd say a lot of the increased effectiveness can be accounted to the vamp having a high Dex (lost because flat-footed).


Well, she has to hit them in a critical point to defeat them.

Alternatively, a Favored Enemy build.

Are the vampires counting as undead or demons for this?

T.G. Oskar
2014-08-07, 01:17 AM
Big question here: does it HAS to be 3.5 exclusively, or can it include other d20 aspects?

Because if you allow other WotC-official content that's not exactly 3.5, the Shadow Slayer (http://www.d20resources.com/modern.d20.srd/classes/advanced/shadow.slayer.php) from the d20 Modern Core Rulebook is right down your alley. You require only a Base Attack Bonus of +3 and proficiency in Archaic Weapons; if you need to translate that, it'd involve proficiency in all Simple and Martial Weapons, as most Archaic Weapons in d20M are about 20% 3.5 Simple weapons and the rest 3.5 Martial Weapons. The benefits are pretty good: you get to have your weapons considered actual magical weapons (in comparison to the Monk's Ki Strike, or using an analogue from the d20 Modern rules, the Archaic Weaponsmaster from the Urban Arcana supplement), you get increasing damage reduction, the ability to detect auras from "creatures of Shadow" (which you can refluff to work in the same regard as Favored Enemy), the equivalent of Favored Enemy, Fast Healing, full BAB, all good saves (d20 Modern uses medium save progression, so you could use the Pathfinder equivalent for prestige class saving throws) and a respectable amount of HP. Sorta like having Monk and Ranger mixed together, but without spells. Being an Advanced Class (which works like a Prestige Class, but has the feel of a D&D base class), you can enter with another class (say, the suggested Swordsage entry) and work around it.

That said: the Slayer works better as a template than as a class, given the mention of "potential Slayers" and how only one awakens every certain time (with some exceptions like Faith, and other spoileriffic stuff), which gives more flexibility than a prestige class alone. The exact traits are to be defined, but generally involve traits that should cancel to some extent the benefits of a Vampire, or the kind of creature to face. This involves at least some boosts to physical stats (Buffy is shown to have superhuman strength to face the inhuman strength of vampires, incredible hand-eye coordination and agility, and the ability to withstand serious wounds) and some sort of damage reduction, at the very least. The bonuses to Perception/Spot & Listen are easy to add and not that powerful, on the other hand. Speed increase...that could be chalked to a class feature like that of a Monk, or if using sudden bursts, maneuvers.

Sith_Happens
2014-08-07, 01:37 AM
Based on Buffy's quarter-episode stint in the construction business, she has at least 32 Strength ("Each of these girders weighs two thousand pounds").

Diovid
2014-08-07, 02:09 AM
Alternatively, a Favored Enemy build.
This. I would give her at least 5 levels of Ranger and 2 levels of Stalker of Karash. Use the following Ranger variants: Favored Enemy (Arcanist), Solitary Hunter, Champion of the Wild and the Strong-Arm combat style. Favored Enemy (Evil Outsider) and Favored Enemy (Undead) should include most of her enemies. Then give her feats which enhance her favored enemy ability even more such as Wise to Your Ways, Favored Power Attack, Nemesis, Improved Favored Enemy, Favored Dodge and Tactical Advantage.


Based on Buffy's quarter-episode stint in the construction business, she has at least 32 Strength ("Each of these girders weighs two thousand pounds").
But then again, she continues to increase in strength throughout the series.

Vhaidara
2014-08-07, 09:19 AM
I would say that her vamps count as evil outsiders for FE

As far as Slayer as a template, I knew I was forgetting something. Regeneration 1 (no limbs clause). Not really enough the wounds are closing mid fight, but enough that she gets back on her feat quickly. I mean, clearly most of her fights are against low level vampire warblades and it's just the two of them exchanging Attack-Recharge and Wall of Blades.

Talya
2014-08-07, 09:28 AM
So, I just finished watching Buffy the Vampire Slayer again (second time start to finish), and I am kind of curious how the Playground would build Buffy and other Slayers? I feel there is a multi step process for this.

Me too! (third time)...currently working on Buffy Season 9 (comic).



1. Build a Slayer template that can be applied to the character. This represents the innate power of the Slayer. Probably a moderate LA, and some huge Physical stat buffs (I estimate probably around mid 20s to low 30s for physicals), and smaller mental stat buffs (+2 or +4), along with bonuses to perception, and a small bonus to move speed (+5/10)

I'll work on one of these today. For the record, I got my hands on the Buffy RPG, and it actually looks really well done. But it's not d20...



2. Build Buffy: The variety of stuff she can do to me implies Gestalt, so that's what I'm thinking. She's competent unarmed, so no monk. I've gotten it into my head that it would be something like Unarmed Swordsage//Warblade, with maneuvers primarily from Setting Sun and Iron Heart, with some Tiger Claw boosts, Stone Dragon strikes, and Diamond Mind counters. In the last season, she picks up some White Raven, but not until then. Level dip in Exoticist Fighter for 4 floating EWPs because of Warblade

I'm thinking using gestalt makes her only valid to a specific campaign. I'd add her unarmed competencies into her template and just go warblade.



3. Not entirely necessary, but build the Scythe (http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100424194103/buffy/images/7/7f/Buffy-scythe.jpg). Dwarven Urgosh is a good starting point, but the scythe can also be used like a bladed gauntlet, gripping near the blade. Possibly a new triple weapon type?

So, anyone want to help with this?

Absolutely. Even if Willow's my girl, Buffy's cool.

Red Fel
2014-08-07, 09:40 AM
I might almost consider Slayer as a class. Not even a PrC, but one with certain prereqs: Race: Human. Gender: Female. Feat: Evil Brand (modified, see below).
Okay, why did I include Evil Brand? Because the Slayer has a demon bound to her soul. And that's the sort of thing Evil beings recognize. The Evil Brand feat (BoVD, FCI, etc.) says that you are in some way marked by Evil, gaining a bonus to Diplomacy and Intimidate against Evil things. Refluff it so that (1) it's not a literal marking, but more like an aura, and (2) it's not a Vile feat. And you've got the basic prereqs of the Slayer class. Doesn't have to be taken at first level (although it's easier, with a Human bonus feat); some people awaken to being the Slayer later in life.

Now, class features: Full BAB. Good Fort and Ref saves. Proficient in all simple and martial weapons, light and medium armor, no shields. Favored Enemy, as a Ranger. First, Undead. Next, Aberration. Last, Outsider (Evil). Special: At a later level, gain the ability to perform critical hits and precision damage against a favored enemy, even if it would be otherwise immune. Fast Movement. Improved Unarmed Strike, maybe Superior Unarmed Strike, too. You know how War Hulk gets +2 Str at every freaking level? Something similar. Get a smaller, less frequent boost to Str, Con, and/or Dex, and maybe one to Wis (representing Slayer senses). Maybe some DR or Fast Healing in there.
It's a simple melee class, really. It won't be high-tier, because Slayers can't fly or cast spells or what have you. (They're not broken like that Witch class. Seriously, OP, am I right?)

Vhaidara
2014-08-07, 09:53 AM
...Red, you are fantastic. I was honestly waiting for you to post.

I still feel a gestalt would be appropriate. Add Swordsage on the other side for Setting Sun Throws and a warblade dip so that she can trade blows via Wall of Blades.

I might argue to put evil outsider before aberration.

Exotic Weapon Proficiency should totally be a thing though. No way that the Slayer Scythe is a martial weapon.


Also, Witch has some pretty nasty prep time, and the whole "risk insanity and soul loss" balancing factor.

Talya
2014-08-07, 10:29 AM
Slayer
Into every generation a slayer is born: one girl in all the world, a chosen one. She alone will wield the strength and skill to fight the vampires, demons, and the forces of darkness; to stop the spread of their evil and the swell of their number. She is the Slayer.

Creating A Slayer
"Slayer" is an acquired template that can be added to any female human (referred to hereafter as the base creature).

The Slayer uses all the base creature's statistics and special abilities except as noted here.

Size and Type
The creature's type does not change. Do not recalculate base attack bonus, saves, or skill points. Size is unchanged.

Hit Dice
Increase all current and future Hit Dice to d12s.

Speed
The slayer gains a +10 bonus to their base land speed which stacks with any other bonuses to speed.

Armor Class
The slayer gains a +5 Natural Armor bonus to Armor Class, which stacks with any other source of natural armor bonus.

Attack
The Slayer retains all the attacks of the base creature and also gains a secondary Slam attack. She can still use weapons. In addition, the Slayer is treated for all purposes as if she had the Improved Unarmed Strike feat. Her damage with Unarmed Strikes follows the same progression as Monk unarmed damage, with her effective monk level equal to her total hit dice.

Full Attack
The Slayer fighting without weapons uses unarmed strikes and her slam attack. If armed with a weapon, she usually uses the weapon as her primary attack along with a slam as a natural secondary attack.


Damage
The Slayer has a slam attack. This attack does the same damage as the slayer's unarmed strike (see the monk table.)


Special Qualities

Stake-out (Ex)
The slayer can improvise a wooden stake as a weapon from any peice of wood large enough to reasonably act as a dagger. The Slayer does not take improvised weapon penalties for wielding this weapon. A wooden stake in the hands of a slayer is a 1d4 (19-20/x3) piercing weapon. (1d6 if large sized).

Hit them where it hurts (Ex)
The Slayer's natural prey tend to be vulnerable to specific types of killing blows. Any manufactured slashing or piercing weapon held by a Slayer is treated as a vorpal weapon, which also specifically works against all undead and outsiders regardless if the target would normally be affected by a vorpal weapon. If the weapon already had the vorpal quality, the vorpal effect will trigger on a 19 or 20. If the weapon is a wooden stake and the target is a vampire, the vorpal effect will trigger on a natural 18, 19 or 20.

Powerful Build (Ex)
The nature of the Slayer lets her function in many ways as if she was one size category larger. Whenever a Slayer is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), as well as for carrying weights, the Slayer is treated as one size larger if doing so is advantageous to her. A Slayer is also considered to be one size larger when determining whether a creature’s special attacks based on size (such as improved grab or swallow whole) can affect her. A Slayer can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty. However, her space and reach remain those of a creature of her actual size. The benefits of this racial trait stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject’s size category.

Fast Healing (Ex)
The Slayer heals unusually quickly. She heals 1 point of hit point damage each minute, as well as 1 point of ability damage every hour.

Damage Reduction (Ex)
The Slayer is somewhat resistant to damage, and has Damage Reduction 5/-. If the slayer gains damage reduction from another source, these do stack.

Vampire Sense (Ex)
A Slayer can detect the presense of the Undead within 60 feet. She cannot pinpoint their location or pick out which creature in a crowd is undead (at least not through the use of this sense), but she can feel that their presence.


Abilities
The Slayer gains a +6 bonus to Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution.

Skills
The Slayer has a +8 bonus to Climb, Jump, Listen, Spot, Swim, and Tumble.

Feats
If the slayer's dexterity is higher than her strength, she is treated as having weapon finesse as a bonus feat. In addition, she can use Weapon Finesse with any weapon.

grarrrg
2014-08-07, 10:39 AM
Race: Human. Gender: Female. Feat: Evil Brand (modified, see below).
Okay, why did I include Evil Brand? Because the Slayer has a demon bound to her soul.

SPOILERS!


As for that Witch class, it isn't so great. All that crazy power can be shut down by a simple Commoner.

Vhaidara
2014-08-07, 10:43 AM
Talya, great work! Now for the hard part: Assigning the LA. I'd say +4 is the highest: It's good, but it still doesn't look better than Pixie with At-Will Greater Invisibility and flight.

Red Fel
2014-08-07, 10:47 AM
...Red, you are fantastic. I was honestly waiting for you to post.

Always a service to be of pleasure. :smallwink:


Slayer
Into every generation a slayer is born: one girl in all the world, a chosen one. She alone will wield the strength and skill to fight the vampires, demons, and the forces of darkness; to stop the spread of their evil and the swell of their number. She is the Slayer.

Totally awesome, only one possibility of abusable language:

Feats
If the slayer's dexterity is higher than her strength, she gains weapon finesse as a bonus feat. In addition, she can use Weapon Finesse with any weapon.
I'd suggest changing "she gains weapon finesse" to "she is treated as having weapon finesse". Otherwise, a player can raise her Slayer's Dex > Str, gain Weapon Finesse for free, then raise Str again, as desired, keeping the feat.

Also, I'd change that DR/-- to DR/Evil, since Big Bads have a pretty straightforward time of fighting a Slayer. And yeah, LA would be a bit of an issue.

Talya
2014-08-07, 10:56 AM
Always a service to be of pleasure. :smallwink:



Totally awesome, only one possibility of abusable language:

I'd suggest changing "she gains weapon finesse" to "she is treated as having weapon finesse". Otherwise, a player can raise her Slayer's Dex > Str, gain Weapon Finesse for free, then raise Str again, as desired, keeping the feat.

True.



Also, I'd change that DR/-- to DR/Evil, since Big Bads have a pretty straightforward time of fighting a Slayer. And yeah, LA would be a bit of an issue.

I wouldn't. While Big Bads have a pretty straightforward time of fighting the slayer, even a god like Glorificus has to hit the slayer a few times before she even bruises. DR 5/- is low enough that it will barely reduce a seriously damaging attack, but high enough that lower power strikes will become minor scratches.

For the record, while nobody commented on Powerful Build, I wondered whether people would ask about it. It came about as a consequence of this line of thought:

"Let's see, she'd need grapple bonuses, trip bonuses, she'd need to be able to fight big demons easily, she needs to be able to lift absurd weights without breaking a sweat... so complicated... Ooooh. She can weild Olaf the Troll's hammer!'

Vhaidara
2014-08-07, 11:06 AM
Yeah, making her DR/Evil defeats the point of it. Maybe DR/Not-Evil.

Honestly, I had been thinking powerful build even before you posted it, but just wasn't sure if it was necessary, since I was thinking the physical stat mods would be about twice as big as what you gave.

Talya
2014-08-07, 11:24 AM
Mʔ -The Slayer-Scythe
Mʔ, also known as "The Slayer-Scythe" is a exotic double-weapon resembling a lochaber-axe with a wooden stake on the other end. You can fight with it as if fighting with two weapons, but if you do, you incur all the normal attack penalties associated with fighting with two weapons, just as if you were using a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. Mʔ's axe head is a slashing weapon that deals 1d10 points of damage. Its stake-head is a piercing weapon that deals 1d6 points of damage. You can use either head as the primary weapon. The other is the off-hand weapon. A creature wielding Mʔ in one hand can’t use it as a double weapon—only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round.

If you use a ready action to set Mʔ against a charge, you deal double damage if you score a hit against a charging character. If you use Mʔ against a charging character, the spear head is the part of the weapon that deals damage.

Slayers treat Mʔ as a martial weapon.

In addition, Mʔ has the following traits only when held by a Slayer:
Mʔ functions as a +5 vorpal weapon that overcomes all types of damage reduction. Mʔ has a threat range of 17-20/x3 with both ends of the weapon. In addition, when fighting vampires or outsiders, the vorpal quality triggers on a natural roll of 18-20 with the axe head, and 17, 18, 19 or 20 with the stake head.

Kyberwulf
2014-08-07, 01:44 PM
What about potential slayers?

I don't think, that the Slayer should be able to be applied to any female human. I think that there should be a feat that marks a Character as a potential first. You must have the Potential to become a slayer first.

Maybe have the potential Be a Paragon Human or something first.

Also, what about the Watchers? Where do they fit in with this Mental Exercise?

I know that the Slayer is a pretty powerful weapon against Evil, but without someone to help them out. Even the most successful Slayer lead sort lives.

I also think that Buffy shouldn't be some badass mofo with all these levels in all these classes. She didn't train hard. She did train, but she often neglected her training to do other things. The thing that set her apart from other slayers wasn't any particular training, it was the fact that she had friends to help her out. Remember what would have happen if Xander wasn't there in Season 1.

Talya
2014-08-07, 01:48 PM
Potential Slayer would not have much mechanical effect.

By Season 7 Buffy is pretty badass, by virtue of having survived so long, and averted so many apocalypses. Certainly, however, in Season 1 she's not all that tough.

Welcome to the concept of levelling. :)

I'd make Buffy pure warblade with the slayer template.

Vhaidara
2014-08-07, 01:52 PM
Potentials are shown to not be particularly exceptional without training.

The marking as a Potential would be an aspect of Red Fel's method (requiring a refluffed Evil Brand)

Watcher's I would view as Experts, mixed with either Warrior (some of them have more combat training) or Adept (more occult training)

Giles is a Factotum//Unarmed Swordsage with a Diamond Mind/Setting Sun Focus

Those happen a lot more early on, which would be when she's low level. By the end, she goes into places solo and kicks all kinds of ass, usually only getting into trouble when she gets cocky. Also, note how Xander's relevance decreases (as observed by Xander). He clearly just grabbed a few Fighter levels from the army guy thing, but all of the feats he got were spent on gear dependent stuff like Weapon Focus.

Vhaidara
2014-08-07, 01:55 PM
I'd make Buffy pure warblade with the slayer template.

I would agree with that, except that I feel she has Setting Sun available to her. The way I see it

Started with Swordsage for Setting Sun maneuvers (early seasons she's mostly unarmed)
Switched to an Iron Heart/Stone Dragon focused Warblade, grabbing an occasional level of Swordsage to update her throws
Final Season she starts grabbing White Raven

Final build would probably look like Human Slayer Swordsage 5 (taken at 1, 2, 7, 14, 19)/Warblade 15

Talya
2014-08-07, 02:03 PM
I could see that. I'd probably take Warblade first and grab a few levels of swordsage after 4 warblade levels, though. No more than 4 swordsage levels but the maneuvers would be higher level.

One other thing I like about Warblade is it lets a slayer, with a single feat (exotic weapon proficiency) pick up and use just about any weapon she chooses on very short notice.

Phelix-Mu
2014-08-07, 02:04 PM
Potential Slayer would not have much mechanical effect.

By Season 7 Buffy is pretty badass, by virtue of having survived so long, and averted so many apocalypses. Certainly, however, in Season 1 she's not all that tough.

Welcome to the concept of levelling. :)

I'd make Buffy pure warblade with the slayer template.

Indeed. I can even count the CR variance of enemies start to spread as the seasons progress.

I think we can probably discount the LA of the template a bit by giving her some kind of "Star-Crossed" trait that both attracts danger all of the time, and prevents anything good from ever happening to her, ever.

I mean, seriously Whedon, I'm about to start a kickstarter so us fans can get together and buy Buffy a break, cause the plot screws her around to no end, depriving her of pretty much anything even approximating happiness. In the end, all she really can lay claim to is temporary victory.

That and some friends, ofc.
At least those that the show doesn't kill off at some point.

DeAnno
2014-08-07, 02:11 PM
The DR is like... DR 10/Slashing or Piercing. She can take an unbelievable pounding unarmed, but if you shoot her or stab her she does really poorly.

Kyberwulf
2014-08-07, 02:24 PM
I think you guys forget, she didn't solo everything that came at her. She depended on a lot of other people for help. She isn't nearly as badass as you are making her out to be.

Talya
2014-08-07, 02:40 PM
The DR is like... DR 10/Slashing or Piercing. She can take an unbelievable pounding unarmed, but if you shoot her or stab her she does really poorly.

Hmm. This is a good point.



I mean, seriously Whedon, I'm about to start a kickstarter so us fans can get together and buy Buffy a break, cause the plot screws her around to no end, depriving her of pretty much anything even approximating happiness. In the end, all she really can lay claim to is temporary victory.

That and some friends, ofc.
At least those that the show doesn't kill off at some point.

This is Whedon's modus operandi for all plot writing, though. Even comedies like Dr. Horrible's Sing-a-Long Blog are incredibly angsty and sad.
I'm just sad her relationship with Satsu in Season 8 was so short, though I can't deny the appeal of her epic sex with Angel.

Kyberwulf
2014-08-07, 03:07 PM
Possible Spoilers.

The whole statement about her "leveling up," rings false too.

Look at her from season 1 to season 7.

Wait let's look at the other characters first.
Willow. Starts off season 1, as maybe an expert. She goes through the series, she goes from being a Mousy nerdy girl. To being a god. She acquires abilities from being a super hacker, to godlike magical powers, both Wizardly, and sorcerer in ways to channel spells. She comes out of her shell. Goes from being the nerdy mousy girl. To being a pretty kickass woman.

Xander, the second one to actually have some growth in the show. Albeit not as awesome as Willows transcendence. He too turns out to become a pretty kickass normal guy. Not nearly the abilities of any of the metas in the show.

Giles, doesn't really change much to be honest. He just goes though a disillusionment of being a useless watcher. He starts off the show as being some multiclass magical/fighter teacher.

You take any other character from the show, and they also grow and change. Maybe not by gaining levels in any specific class. It's there though, they change.

Buffy though. She goes from being a whiny spoiled girl, in season 1. Two being a .. whiney spoiled girl in season 7. Although, at the end of season 7 she does seem to take on the mantle of her responsibilities. Throughout the whole series though. She pretty much just runs from her responsibilities. She pretty much goes goes from being a .. Fighter 1, in season 1. To Maybe a Fighter 5/Barbarian 4 in season 7. That is the Only way she changes. Is she gets a little better at hitting things. She doesn't go out of her way to really train. She doesn't go out of her way to learn anything new. Everything is handed to her.

The only reason why she is able to defeat many of the challenges that are thrown against her. Is everyone around her, picks up her slack. They do her job for her. They research the threat. Come up with the plan to defeat the Big Bad. Her first, and pretty much ONLY form of tactics.. is go in there, and hit the thing until it's dead.

Again, I reiterate. The only reason she survives anything, is because she has help.

Talya
2014-08-07, 03:31 PM
Again, I reiterate. The only reason she survives anything, is because she has help.


The others were useless without buffy. They survived on her, she didn't survive on them. Sure, there were countless cases where Buffy would not have survived without help - no slayer ever would have. That's why they tend to have short lifespans - they work alone and die early. But Buffy is the hero - They make her better, but she's still the one everybody counts on.

Buffy grows incredibly in power and responsibility throughout the series. She has some setbacks (resurrection level loss?) after The Gift, but she's notably stronger and tougher and smarter as the series progresses. She also becomes more damaged emotionally as the series progresses (for reasons already pointed out by Phelix-Mu), so she gains more vulnerabilities, too. Instead of growing up, she gets broken down. This is why she's still cookie dough.

Phelix-Mu
2014-08-07, 03:52 PM
The others were useless without buffy. They survived on her, she didn't survive on them. Sure, there were countless cases where Buffy would not have survived without help - no slayer ever would have. That's why they tend to have short lifespans - they work alone and die early.

Buffy grows incredibly in power and responsibility throughout the series. She has some setbacks (resurrection level loss?) after The Gift, but she's notably stronger and tougher and smarter as the series progresses. She also becomes more damaged emotionally as the series progresses (for reasons already pointed out by Phelix-Mu), so she gains more vulnerabilities, too.

I agree with much of this, and I understand where a cyclical tragedy is certainly Whedon's classic schtick (though I'm not sure it's vital to the appeal of his work).

Personally, and not to get too far from the building the Slayer bit, I feel that a big part of the dramatic tension in the series is not so much about the struggle to be heroic or to overcome the evil. That is kind of backdrop to the real drama; inside, Buffy is torn between an innately tragic destiny that transcends what most people are even aware of (her secret life is secret), and the struggle to remain human in the most important sense--that of relationships, a sense of normality, a place where she can be safe, stable, and experience a modicum of happiness.

Time and again, she finds herself not only apart from others, but repeatedly robbed of any kind of native turf that she tries to claim for herself. In a sense, it's the normal, angsty development of a teenager/young adult set in life-and-death terms; I think this is why, time and again, I look at my enjoyment of the show (and sadly, only the show) as the enjoyment of a soap opera. Is the writing stellar? Not really. Are the events suspenseful or surprising? Usually quite the opposite. Nevertheless, the emotional tension I feel when watching Buffy's relationships evolve is real, and really compelling (at least to me...a guilty pleasure, to be sure, but a pleasure nonetheless). The drama is couched in the fantastic and the unreal, but it revolves around themes that are integral to every narrative in the history of forever; love, loss, pain, connection to others and the broader world, a sense of peace or fulfillment, and growth over time.

The part that I feel sometimes is missing is that last bit; growth over time. Yes, the apocalypse this week is different. And yes, Buffy will have to rise higher (and fall further) than ever before. But there is a smidgeon too much of the feel of ground well-trodden. Maybe the problem is that change in the series is glacially slow (especially for the Scoobies), or maybe it is that the next tragedy just sends Buffy spinning yet again. Or maybe it's that she bears the brunt of the crap in the series until pretty far along, and all the rest of the drama just pales in comparison to...let's say death, peaceful afterlife, and tragic resurrection. Among many other extremely crappy things that happen.

I'm not so much against the crappy. Crappy is good, it's compelling. But too much crappy just leaves me feeling a bit shellshocked, but basically heartbroken that, despite great heroism, Buffy is afforded little in the way of recompense (or even rest).