Pious Templar or Paladin?

[ReD_Exorcist]

So I just have a simple question which is better Paladin or Pious Templar, I think Paladin is way worth

[DeltaEmil]

So I just have a simple question which is better Paladin or Pious Templar, I think Paladin is way worthYou can combine both, becoming a spell-less paladin who traded paladin spellcasting for an alternate class features like more bonus feats (Complete Champion), and take Pious Templar levels to regain paladin spellcasting (but at a far faster track than the normal paladin does), and thus gain both divine grace and mettle, and increase smite evil normally.

Pious Templar viewed on its own does have some benefits, like not forcing you to adhere to a strict code of conduct, allows you to be a paladin-like character with other alignments, grants three bonus feats (Weapon Specialization and two other fighter bonus feats) and has a good smite ability that works against everything.

Paladin is superior if you focus on abusing turn undead to fuel divine and domain feats as well as on the special mount, but at the cost of having a code of conduct and anti-multiclassing rules. The other paladin abilities like divine health or remove disease practically never matter.

[Xuldarinar]

Personally, I believe the Pious Templar is better but the paladin has its own use.




One concept for a build I had actually uses the paladin and the pious templar, but paladin is tossed away.


Start out as a Paladin of Wee Jas. Do this for 11 level (Paladin 11)
At 11th level, become Lawful Neutral and take up the Pious Templar class. Choose the Paladin spell list. (Ex-Paladin 11/Pious Templar 1)
At Durring your first level of Pious Templar, fall to evil. Become a blackguard and swap all the paladin levels you can to blackguard levels. (Ex-Paladin 2/Pious Templar 1/Blackguard 10)
For the rest of your advancement pre-epic, advance Pious Templar. (Ex-Paladin 2/Pious Templar 1/Blackguard 10/Pious Templar +7)


If you plan ahead to epic levels:

Start out as a Paladin of Wee Jas. Do this for 11 level (Paladin 11)
At 11th level, become Lawful Neutral and take up the Pious Templar class. Choose the Paladin spell list. Continue on till you complete the class. (Ex-Paladin 11/Pious Templar 10)
Then finish the fall and go to blackguard, take two levels in it and convert all ex-paladin levels into it (Pious Templar 10/Blackguard 13).
Then become a Divine Emissary (Pious Templar 10/Blackguard 13/Divine Emissary 1+).

[T.G. Oskar]

It all really depends.

As a base class, Paladin has lots of options that can strengthen the build. The default build is Mounted Combat, and the choice of spells and special mount work for that, but there's other builds that also help. While most of its power is based on feats, the A-Game Paladin (http://community.wizards.com/content/forum-topic/3407376) uses the Divine Spirit ACF to good measure, and also the Harmonious Knight substitution level to replace stuff like the weekly uses of Remove Disease. The amount of spells the Paladin gets eventually becomes higher than that of the Pious Templar, getting one extra 3rd level spell and two extra 4th level spells at 20th level.

On the other hand, Pious Templar is slightly more focused. Getting extra feats isn't that great since you have to spend some of your feats already. True Believer is only mildly good unless you get access to the deity's relics, and only the deities from the PHB plus a few assorted ones (Bahamut, Lolth, Tiamat) get those, so don't expect a lot of power from that. Weapon Focus is also a bit of a downer, particularly if the deity's favored weapon isn't that great (such as Wee Jas and the dagger), and that reduces the worth of Weapon Specialization as a bonus feat. Thus, you can drop the two bonus feats and lose virtually nothing. The real benefits from Pious Templar involve a more physically focused skill list (you get Climb, Jump and Swim), a Smite ability unburdened by alignment (get anything that boosts Smite and call it a day; say, Sapphire Smite works wonders if you happen to have Incarnum) and Mettle, which is pretty good. The Damage Reduction is a minor treat compared to the spellcasting progression and Mettle, honestly. That, and getting it in 10 levels rather than 20.

Mixing both can be good and bad, since you don't lose Smite progression and you can replace the spells with even more feats, but you lose some of the stuff that also happens to progress. The Cursebreaker and Divine Spirit ACFs are really awesome, but stop progressing if you drop Paladin and go into Pious Templar; alternatively, Charging Smite benefits both, so this is a good catch. There's also the problem of Lay on Hands as well, but YMMV on that.

In direct competition, the Paladin edges out a bit, since Divine Grace > Mettle (though it doesn't beat Divine Grace + Mettle), the spells eventually win (unless you have another spell list running in tandem), and the class features overall are superior to the Templar's ones (Smite > Smite [alignment], but the Paladin's Smite Evil deals roughly twice the damage; Damage Reduction is superior to Remove Disease, but not to Aura of Courage or Divine Health and is only moderately worthy against Lay on Hands). It's somewhat easy to dip Paladin for solid builds (Sorcadin) or even use the whole steak for it (A-Game, Ubercharger), compared to Pious Templar which doesn't get much for it.

As for weird builds? Paladin of Tyranny or Slaughter 5/Pious Templar 8/Nar Demonbinder 7. Choose a deity fitting Narfell and the Forgotten Realms but also having a good favored weapon (Cyric has the longsword) so that you can get the best out of the consumed feats. Use the Otyugh Hole to save a feat (Iron Will) and bite the other three (True Believer, Weapon Focus, Spell Focus). That should leave you with 8th level spells (up to 4th level divine and from 4th to 8th arcane), a good amount of Smites per day, Divine Grace, Mettle, decent enough DR, a better aura than Aura of Courage, uses of Rebuke Undead, and the ability to bind creatures to your service for even more punch.