"Nightmares Made Real" DM Interpretations

[Dell_the_Engie]

A while back, when determining the next invocation my Warlock would take, I looked at nightmares made real (nightmare terrain for all you spellcasters). I chatted with my DM about how exactly it would work, since there's many aspects to both the invocation and the spell, and we ultimately made a few key decisions.

First, we determined that all creatures in the terrain take the same damage from one roll of the 1d6, beginning on the turn I cast nightmare made real, and repeating the roll at the beginning of my subsequent turns. Creatures that occupy more than one nightmares made real tile at once take more damage. Any creature can choose to roll a Will save if they are viewing the illusion, but they must roll a save (or else choose to fail their save) if they are in or entering the terrain, and they have to repeat that save every subsequent time they exit and reenter an affected square. The entanglement effect is limited to half-speed, because it does not physically tether creatures to the terrain. And lastly, being within 5 feet from the terrain provides concealment from creatures standing inside the tiles, and standing 10 feet or further away from the terrain provides total concealment, while the creatures inside the terrain are granted no such concealment to those outside. Essentially, the concealment affects only the perception of the creatures within the illusion, but does not physically obstruct or obscure vision for all.

How plausible of an interpretation is this? Do you think my DM is pretty spot-on, or is it a very liberal interpretation? Especially in regard to the rules of concealment, does this make much sense for the invocation? I'd like to hear your feedback.

This thread relates somewhat to this.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?360647-Question-about-Nightmare-Terrain-Nightmares-Made-Real

[Dell_the_Engie]

Bumping and updating this thread, speaking with a friend DMing another campaign, he believes the concealment effects of nightmare terrain are like that of fog cloud. Reading the wording of both, it's a really good point. I do wonder if my DM has it right, but then again, illusory effects don't have to obey the rules of physical effects. Can I get some feedback on this?

[jiriku]

Creatures must interact with an illusion to be entitled to save against it. Merely looking at an illusion from a distance doesn't entitle you to save against it (otherwise everyone would be allowed to save against illusions automatically). Also, interacting with an illusion entitles you to one save, not one save per round. The only way you can gain an additional save is if someone points out the illusion to you, and even then you get just one more. Allowing one save per round is a very punitive house rule, since almost everyone will save within 3-4 rounds under that interpretation.

Entanglements composed of writhing vegetation would anchor you, much as with the 1st level entangle spell. Victims are in fact physically tethered to the ground because the vegetation they are entangled by is attached to... you guessed it... the ground. Remember that these entanglements are quasi-real animated plants made from the substance of the plane of shadow. They have an objective physical existence and are not merely glamers or phantasms.

It follows then, that creatures who believe the illusion and manage to exit the area, then return to it, would be entangled once more with no new chance to save. However, any NPC with an Int of 1 or higher would expect this and would not be eager to return to the obviously dangerous area.

Your DM's interpretation of the concealment makes no sense to me. The spell explicitly grants concealment to creatures within its effect, and says nothing about granting creatures outside the area any concealment when targeted by those within. The concealment results from smoking pits and miasmic vapors. It should work exactly like fog cloud or obscuring mist, where concealment is determined by the number of squares of obscured terrain you must draw your line of sight through. 2+ squares = total concealment, 1 square = concealment, 0 squares (adjacent) = no concealment.

Overall, I'd say your DM is unfairly nerfing this powerful 4th level spell by his interpretations.

[Dell_the_Engie]

Thank you for the response. You brought up some good points, although I might recommend you look up and reexamine the exact wording of the spell. Creatures viewing the area are also entitled to Will saves, this much is not debatable. Now, whether this requires some time to study the illusion (suggested as a move action in Rules of the Game: All About Illusions (Part Three) (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060221a)), or this simply enables an immediate Will save from any onlooker is more questionable.

I do agree, though, once someone has failed their save, they probably shouldn't be entitled to subsequent saves, unless specific circumstances allow them to do so. My DM does not allow one save each round, but she does allow a creature another save each time they reenter the terrain, including if they succeed. I can see how she could come to this conclusion, though, since I think think the spell is pretty poorly-worded. At face value, one might think that all creatures simply viewing the illusion can become entangled if they fail their saves. This is why interpretation is needed.

And as for the entanglement effect, I'm unsure where to stand. You make the point that the source of entanglement is quasi-real, and animated vegetation and limbs could very well fix someone in place. I'm still inclined to say the effect is merely half-speed, though, as a quasi-real effect is still mostly illusory, and perhaps most importantly, the spell description lacks the usual details about entanglement in cases where all movement is restricted. It does not site entanglement as the spell, nor does it state that affected creatures cannot move, only that they are entangled, nor does it specify any conditions in which one may break free from the plants or limbs, implying either one moves at half-speed, as is default for entanglement, or, they simply cannot move from their spot for the entire duration of the spell. I know which one of those effects I'd want, but it seems more likely that the effect does not entirely restrict movement.

Lastly, I agree with you about the concealment effect, that it works like fog cloud, although one-way concealment sure has been handy. I think the confusion comes from poor wording again. The spell description simply states "creatures within 5 feet have concealment", but this doesn't really mean anything without any more context. Is it "creatures within 5 feet (of nightmare terrain) have concealment", or is it "creatures within 5 feet (from nightmare terrain)", or maybe "creatures within 5 feet (of each other)"? A few more words make all the difference, and fog cloud's description benefits from it. I think the line-of-sight approach is right on.

[Elxir_Breauer]

As to the Entanglement movement question, per the DMG, pg 300: The character is ensnared. Being entangled impedes movement, but does not entirely prevent it unless the bonds are anchored to an immobile object or tethered by an opposing force. An entangled creature moves at half speed, cannot run or charge, and takes a -2 penalty on all attack rolls and a -4 penalty to Dexterity. An entangled character who attempts to cast a spell must make a Concentration check (DC 15= the spell's level) or lose the spell.

As far as the concealment issues, I would go with the interpretation that it's within 5' of each affected character is concealment, and 10' or further away all have total concealment, as this seems to be the intended method of dealing with it. This would mean that characters outside it, looking in, would need to make their Will saves in order to ignore the concealment as well as the characters inside needing to do so. This would seem to be the case with the stipulation that anyone even looking at the illusory terrain needs to make a save.

Elxir Breauer, at your service...

[Dell_the_Engie]

Thank you, Elxir, you've brought up some important penalties with entanglement, and I'll make sure my DM has factored those in.

Unfortunately, the concealment effect remains the same "regardless of the outcome of the save". So, it's all a matter of line-of-sight. I'm going to have to think about how I can spin this to an advantage, because granting my party concealment doesn't seem so valuable when I'm also granting the enemy concealment. I have sixteen 10x10 cubes that I can place in any configuration within 50 feet of myself, so I have some space to get creative.

One last thing: I, alone, can make Hide checks while in the terrain, even while being observed. I essentially gain Hide in Plain Sight. And of course, I cast this at-will, and am unaffected by the 1d6 damage every round in the terrain.