Madness Tarrasquekiller: Slaying the Tarrasque as a 1st level commoner.

[Inevitability]

We all know the Tarrasque is far, far, over CR-ed. A moderately optimized party could easily take him down at 10th level, or even at 5th level. However, killing him is not as easy, is it?

In this thread, I present a build that can kill the Tarrasque at 1st level, with no dependency on classes, items or spellcasting services. (but a high dependency on rule of silly :smalltongue:)

Now without further ado, the build!

Madness Tarrasquekiller, LE Venerable Human Commoner 1 (patron deity Kurtulmak)

Flaws:
-XP farm
-Chicken Infested

Ability scores (32 point buy):
STR: 10
DEX: 10
CON: 10
INT: 15
WIS: 19
CHA: 14

Feats:
1: Magical Training
Human: Precocious Apprentice (command undead)
Flaw: Keeper of Forbidden Lore
Flaw: Education
Pact: Arcane Disciple (luck domain)

Skills:
Max ranks in Spellcraft and Knowledge (religion). Do whatever you want with your other 12 skill points. Putting points in heal would be useful, and maybe intimidate too.

The trick:

Okay, the Tarrasque is coming for Madness' city. First, Madness kidnaps a random person and tortures him Cruelly. Then, he causes Gratutious Injury to his victim, whatever that may be. He has now performed two corrupt acts that will let him make a Pact Insidious. As his rewards, Madness chooses a free feat (Arcane Disciple) and a free 9th level spell slot.

The tortured victim is given the choice to either commit suicide or face the torture again. After trying enough times, most people will choose the first option. You now have a person driven to suicide because you affected it in life with torture. Or, to put it in another way, a person has been driven to suicide by Madness, who affected it in life. Allip time!

Command the Allip. If this doesn't work, run like hell. Create a wall of chickens between the two of you, and revel in the knowledge you are just as fast as the Allip. Remember to run straight at the Tarrasque in this case, as it will get the Allip where you want him.

We all know what happens now. Allip drains Tarrasque's wisdom, Tarrasque suffers brain failure, Tarrasque goes down, just add nonlethal damage by I don't know, sealing its lungs off with chickens or something. Then let the nonlethal damage ramp up for a couple hours.

Now, it is time to unleash your mighty magicks! Through the luck domain, you have added Miracle to your spell list. Through the diabolic pact, you have gained a 9th-level spell slot. Simply walk up to the comatose Tarrasque and cast Miracle at its face. Tarrasque's dead, you win.

Cast Ghost Sound three times (Magical Training) to shout that Madness Tarrasqueslayer just killed the Tarrasque. Just for style.

So, how is it? I'd love to gain some feedback on this.

[Inevitability]

I'd love to hear some comments on this build. 88 views and no one has something to say? We can do better. :smallwink:

[Kazyan]

Frankly, I'm surprised you did it without the BoVD sacrifice rules that other low-level high-op stunts keep using. But it is very silly.

[Seclora]

I may use this as a villain's backstory some day. It is the perfect combination of crazy and rules legal.


I have to ask though, why Kurtulmak?

[Inevitability]

I have to ask though, why Kurtulmak?

Mostly because he was the only evil deity I could find who possesses the luck domain. I can see your DM getting itchy when you insist that your CN character is still CN even when committing incredible evil acts and making pacts with LE outsiders. Kurtulmak's alignment is just perfect for this.

[Riston]

I think it's the only time i've seen someone optimize their character name. Silly, but I like it.

[Cowardly Griffo]

Well, even if the Allip goes first in initiative–which is actually less than 50/50 odds–the Tarrasque is more than likely going to stone-cold destroy it in the first round. The Tarrasque gets seven attacks per round, and its weapons are counted as Epic for the purposes of bypassing DR–i.e., they can hit incorporeal creatures, though there's still that 50% miss chance.

On average, let's give you the benefit of the doubt and say that the three worst of them hit and do perfectly average damage, rounded down. That's still 40 damage, more than enough to annihilate the Allip even if it rolls well above average on its own hit die.

So this doesn't work unless you get alarmingly lucky. It also assumes that if you fail to control the Allip you also succeed at the will save to not get hypnotized by its muttering. :smalltongue:

Edit: Also, maybe I'm just blind, but I'm not seeing any spellcasting ability that would let you pick up Precocious Apprentice. And it's debatable whether you could pick up Arcane Disciple and/or utilize that spell slot as part of a pact; I'm pretty sure you still have to meet the prerequisites for whatever you get out of that deal. Also the XP cost for Miracle for keeping the Tarrasque dead which you wouldn't be able to pay.

[sideswipe]

shame about all that wasted XP......

[Kerinserval]

Have you considered how much time you'd need to torture this person into suicide? Because it could be quite a lot.

We'll assume that time is of the essence, so its straight to the torture chamber with Joeschmoe McPoor. It takes 1 hour to perform torture on a person, if you want to minimise the chance of him succeeding then you would need to have restrained him for 12 hours and have to wait 6 hours between torture attempts (in the case he succeeds). Cruelly torturing him has a 50/50 (1d6+1) chance of dropping him into negative health; hope you put some points into heal to stabilise him. Even assuming you've managed to stop him from bleeding out on the table, you'd still have to wait for him to gain enough health to be out of the negatives (if it happened) which would take 8-16 hours worth of rest/care assuming you've stopped him from dropping more health on the ground.

You still have to wait for the allip to rise which doesn't have a specified time (at least, in the the monster manual or book of bad latin). So it could be anywhere between instantly to several years or centuries even.

Excluding Allip raising time, it would be about an hour at absolute minimum while minimising failure would take 13 hours at minimum.

[TiaC]

Well, even if the Allip goes first in initiative–which is actually less than 50/50 odds–the Tarrasque is more than likely going to stone-cold destroy it in the first round. The Tarrasque gets seven attacks per round, and its weapons are counted as Epic for the purposes of bypassing DR–i.e., they can hit incorporeal creatures, though there's still that 50% miss chance.
Incorporeality is not DR. The Tarrasque can't touch it.



Edit: Also, maybe I'm just blind, but I'm not seeing any spellcasting ability that would let you pick up Precocious Apprentice. And it's debatable whether you could pick up Arcane Disciple and/or utilize that spell slot as part of a pact; I'm pretty sure you still have to meet the prerequisites for whatever you get out of that deal. Also the XP cost for Miracle for keeping the Tarrasque dead which you wouldn't be able to pay.

Magical Training qualifies him.

[Kerinserval]

Incorporeality is not DR. The Tarrasque can't touch it.

Magic weapons have a 50% chance of hitting Incorporeal creatures, Epic weapons include this property as they are effectively +6 magic weapons.

Granted that's not what it says RAW for Magic/Epic strike but its the more logical conclusion. :smallconfused:

[Sith_Happens]

Granted that's not what it says RAW for Magic/Epic strike but its the more logical conclusion. :smallconfused:

This thread is based around someone creating an Allip by having the right name. You think logic has any power here?:smalltongue:

[Fates]

Or, to put it in another way, a person has been driven to suicide by Madness, who affected it in life. Allip time!

I read this five minutes ago.
I am still laughing.
I...
I think I need an oxygen tank.

Close the forums. Close the site. Preserve only this thread. Dirge_Stirge has surpassed our mortal quibbles.

[Chronos]

So, you're using an argument of "not RAW but it's logical", and that's the part of the build that you're objecting to?

[squiggit]

Magic weapons have a 50% chance of hitting Incorporeal creatures, Epic weapons include this property as they are effectively +6 magic weapons.
His weapons aren't Epic though. They're treated as Epic for the purposes of DR.


Granted that's not what it says RAW for Magic/Epic strike but its the more logical conclusion. :smallconfused:

I don't think I agree. "for the purpose of overcoming DR" is a pretty specific statement with pretty specific consequences.

[Inevitability]

Close the forums. Close the site. Preserve only this thread. Dire_Stirge has surpassed our mortal quibbles.

Can I sig this? :smallbiggrin:


Have you considered how much time you'd need to torture this person into suicide? Because it could be quite a lot.

We'll assume that time is of the essence, so its straight to the torture chamber with Joeschmoe McPoor. It takes 1 hour to perform torture on a person, if you want to minimise the chance of him succeeding then you would need to have restrained him for 12 hours and have to wait 6 hours between torture attempts (in the case he succeeds). Cruelly torturing him has a 50/50 (1d6+1) chance of dropping him into negative health; hope you put some points into heal to stabilise him. Even assuming you've managed to stop him from bleeding out on the table, you'd still have to wait for him to gain enough health to be out of the negatives (if it happened) which would take 8-16 hours worth of rest/care assuming you've stopped him from dropping more health on the ground.

You still have to wait for the allip to rise which doesn't have a specified time (at least, in the the monster manual or book of bad latin). So it could be anywhere between instantly to several years or centuries even.

Excluding Allip raising time, it would be about an hour at absolute minimum while minimising failure would take 13 hours at minimum.

He is only tortured Cruelly the first time. After that, he may as well only be Intimidated. There's nothing saying that doing less damage with the torture is less effective.


Also to those of the Allip-Tarrasque debate, the Allip could also just:

-Fly to the earth below the tarrasque.
-During the next round, wisdom drain and then fly down 30 ft.
-Fly up again, this time in a different spot.
-Wisdom drain, fly down again.

Unless the tarrasque can tunnel through 30 ft. of stone and still be able to attack someone in a single turn, the Allip will eventually win.


shame about all that wasted XP......

In that case, just let a bunch of commoners buy a ticket letting them take a single free stab at the Tarrasque while it is down. They all participated in slaying it, so logically they now gain a load of XP too. I wonder how much a commoner would pay to level up?

Assuming 4 ranks, 13 wisdom and skill focus, the average commoner has +8 to Profession. His average roll would be +18, or 9 GP per week.

Now, if he were to level up, he'd probably take another rank in Profession, giving him a +9 bonus. That equals to half a gold piece more a week, or 26 more a year. So if the commoner pays 25 GP for participating in the Slay, he'll get that money back within a year. It is kind of an investment.

Of course, that's not counting the improved BAB, additional HP, and other skill points a commoner would gain from this, so it may even be far more attractive. And lets not start on what happens if the XP goes to PC class levels.

[Sian]

Mostly because he was the only evil deity I could find who possesses the luck domain. I can see your DM getting itchy when you insist that your CN character is still CN even when committing incredible evil acts and making pacts with LE outsiders. Kurtulmak's alignment is just perfect for this.

Beshaba (Godess of misfortune and bad luck) from Forgotten Realms is CE with Luck domain

[Inevitability]

Beshaba (Godess of misfortune and bad luck) from Forgotten Realms is CE with Luck domain

Could also work. Still, I think being LE fits the build better. Deal With the Devil and all that.

[tadkins]

I thought only Kobolds could worship Kurtulmak. Might be wrong there.

[Vaz]

Mostly because he was the only evil deity I could find who possesses the luck domain. I can see your DM getting itchy when you insist that your CN character is still CN even when committing incredible evil acts and making pacts with LE outsiders. Kurtulmak's alignment is just perfect for this.

I seem to remember something about the pacts immediately making you LE?

[Daishain]

I thought only Kobolds could worship Kurtulmak. Might be wrong there.

To my knowledge, there are no hard restrictions on deity choices besides what the DM approves. (aside from alignment differences for clerics and the like)

However, it would be unlikely to the point of absurdity, which admittedly seems to be the point of this idea. I don't think I if acting as a DM would allow it unless given an extremely good excuse. Given kobold culture, the odds of an outsider knowing anything about Kurtulmak are quite slim (other than gnomes, who have their own legends, but they loathe kurtulmak and his people more than any other). And the odds of any outsider that is aware having actual reason to take up his banner are even lower.

[Inevitability]

I thought only Kobolds could worship Kurtulmak. Might be wrong there.

I don't think there's any deity whose followers are restricted to a single race. The closest thing would be that 'humans are superior' god from RoD.


I seem to remember something about the pacts immediately making you LE?

Could be. Never heard of it though. Regardless, this build works with Kurtulmak so I'm sticking with him.

[Vaz]

My bad, it was a Pact Certain. Although as you said, adhering to a non-evil alignment is a pain when you're continually commiting explicitly evil acts.

There could be a way around it - find a Cleric of a LE god with a Heretic of the Faith feat taking Luck. It's not explicit, but you could become one of his followers, which suggests you follow in his Heresy, and as he benefits from it, so could you.

[Chronos]

Clerics of racial deities need to be of that race, but other followers can be of any race.

And besides, it's a ludicrous way of breaking the game by twisting rules beyond all recognition. Kobolds have to be involved in there somewhere.

[Inevitability]

And besides, it's a ludicrous way of breaking the game by twisting rules beyond all recognition. Kobolds have to be involved in there somewhere.

This thread is spawning so much great quotes.

[Fates]

Can I sig this? :smallbiggrin:


Go right ahead. Goodness knows I wouldn't be where I am today* if my words weren't pasted on every medium available.**

* (in prison)
** (including several government buildings and a tour bus)

[toapat]

in order to get the xp out of the kill, Madness VonTarrasqueslayer needs to gain the contributing stabs of enough commoners to reach CR 13. Now, the allip doesnt count, so that means we need 8 more commoners then we would want to split the xp.

a lvl 1 human commoner is "CR1". 2 of them are CR 2, and 4 are CR 3 and so on. this means we need 8191 stabs after the allip downs Mr.T to yield XP.

a 13th level party downing the tarrasque would gain 46800 each of xp, for a total pool of 187200xp.

divide that by the number of commoners needed, and we get a total of everyone is getting 22.85 xp

[Inevitability]

a lvl 1 human commoner is "CR1". 2 of them are CR 2, and 4 are CR 3 and so on. this means we need 8191 stabs after the allip downs Mr.T to yield XP.

No. A 1st level human warrior is CR 1/2. Commoners should RAW be CR 1/2, and more likely 1/3 or even 1/4.

[toapat]

No. A 1st level human warrior is CR 1/2. Commoners should RAW be CR 1/2, and more likely 1/3 or even 1/4.

not according to the definition of Associated vs Non Associated class levels. because humanoids typically lose their RHD with a class level that class is considered associated and so advances CR 1:1, not 2:1 or the 5:1 it actually should be for commoner

ah, exception clause. Ok, everyone gets 11.425 xp for the tarrasque kill

[Harrow]

in order to get the xp out of the kill, Madness VonTarrasqueslayer needs to gain the contributing stabs of enough commoners to reach CR 13. Now, the allip doesnt count, so that means we need 8 more commoners then we would want to split the xp.

a lvl 1 human commoner is "CR1". 2 of them are CR 2, and 4 are CR 3 and so on. this means we need 8191 stabs after the allip downs Mr.T to yield XP.

a 13th level party downing the tarrasque would gain 46800 each of xp, for a total pool of 187200xp.

divide that by the number of commoners needed, and we get a total of everyone is getting 22.85 xp

You gain XP based on Average Party Level with an assumed 4 man party, not based on party CR. This means you need only a total of 52 level 1 commoners to reach an average party level of 13. Each commoner would receive 900 xp.

[maniacalmojo]

a commoner would almost instantly fail his wisdom check vs the allip and go about as crazy. The allip does not really have a motivation to kill the tarrasque. At lower wisdom i bet the tarrasque would be raging and destroying, most things. I believe you have to cast your spell as well as actually land a killing blow (good luck commoner doing that to something with crazy high AC) Also not really seeing anything allowing you to get a 9th level spell slot or the spell miracle.

Also no DM would allow half these things to work. May work in a purely technical sense but easily screwed up and in practice not really viable (for instance asking for a knowledge check the DM could say a commoner would not know how to make a demonic pact ect)

[Inevitability]

a commoner would almost instantly fail his wisdom check vs the allip and go about as crazy. The allip does not really have a motivation to kill the tarrasque. At lower wisdom i bet the tarrasque would be raging and destroying, most things. I believe you have to cast your spell as well as actually land a killing blow (good luck commoner doing that to something with crazy high AC) Also not really seeing anything allowing you to get a 9th level spell slot or the spell miracle.

If you are afraid of going Allip-Crazy, buy some wax and put it in your ears. This is explicitly stated to prevent Sonic effects from working.

Indeed, the Allip has no motivation. That's why you are Commanding it to do your bidding. Allips are CE and quite insane, so I would be surprised if it doesn't follow a trail of fleshy, drainable bodies (your chickens).

No, you do not have to land the killing blow. You just need to cast Miracle or Wish at the unconscious Tarrasque's body, and then it dies.

The spell miracle is gained by the Arcane Disciple feat, which lets you add Miracle to your spell list. (yes you have one, Magical Training gives you a spell list)
The spell slot is gained by the Pact, which gives you a spell slot of any level.

This character is a caster with a spell slot of the intended level, an ability score high enough to cast the spell and the spell on his spell list. What else would he need to cast the spell? I doubt Kurtulmak would be very opposed to slaying the Tarrasque.


Also no DM would allow half these things to work. May work in a purely technical sense but easily screwed up and in practice not really viable (for instance asking for a knowledge check the DM could say a commoner would not know how to make a demonic pact ect)

Of course a DM wouldn't allow this. This is TO. The point is that this works by RAW, and if a DM goes restricting parts of it, then that isn't this build's problem.

[Chronos]

Quoth Dire_Stirge:

This character is a caster with a spell slot of the intended level, an ability score high enough to cast the spell and the spell on his spell list. What else would he need to cast the spell?
5000 XP, maybe?

[toapat]

5000 XP, maybe?

not for killing the tarrasque

[Chronos]

XP-free miracles are only for duplicating lower-level spells, undoing harmful status conditions, and other effects of the same power level as those. Finishing off the Tarrasque does not fit into any of those categories, and therefore must be a greater request, which costs XP.

[toapat]

XP-free miracles are only for duplicating lower-level spells, undoing harmful status conditions, and other effects of the same power level as those. Finishing off the Tarrasque does not fit into any of those categories, and therefore must be a greater request, which costs XP.

Heroics and spells which duplicate racial or class features cover 1-4th level spells in arcane and divine, removal or suppression of those is reasonably within the power of the spell

you cant influence whether the tarrasque can remain dead while alive, and it does not declare wish or miracle requiring XP to keep him down.

The tarrasque does not fall under the definition of natural Disaster (despite being one), by the point it can be miracled dead the battle is over so miracle cant swing the battle, and its definitely not precision gate

[Chronos]

The list of things that don't cost XP is specific and exhaustive. The list of things that do cost XP is not, and consists of "everything else". Taking away the Tarrasque's ability to come back isn't at all remotely like a 4th-level spell: The only other thing that can do it is a ninth-level non-cleric spell, which rather definitively proves it's not comparable to any spell that Miracle can copy.

[Jowgen]

The list of things that don't cost XP is specific and exhaustive. The list of things that do cost XP is not, and consists of "everything else".

This is correct.


it does not declare wish or miracle requiring XP to keep him down

This is also correct.

Does the specific-ness of the latter trump the general-ness of the prior? Surely there must be piece of RAW out there that resolves wheter the specific-trumps-general rule applies when a spell-application is referenced by something outside the spells description.

As to the question whether "undo auto-ressurect" is within the realm of a 4th or lower level spell... The Kiss of the Grave poison from the WotC Fey ariticle archives seems to be the closest thing to this effect, as it explcitly turns immortals mortal as its secondary effect, and can only be reversed with a miracle or wish. Surely one can draw a reasonable comparison from that.
Kiss of the Grave Contact DC 20 1d4 Con Mortality* 5,000 gp
Crafting this poison also carries the prerequisites of Craft Wondrous Item and bestow curse. *The secondary damage causes immortal creatures, such as fey, to become mortal and renders all creatures unable to be raised or resurrected. The secondary damage is permanent and can be reversed only with a miracle or wish spell.

EDIT: Apologies to anyone who takes offence to being called Surely :smalltongue:

[Lord of Shadows]

We all know the Tarrasque is far, far, over CR-ed. A moderately optimized party could easily take him down at 10th level, or even at 5th level. However, killing him is not as easy, is it?

In this thread, I present a build that can kill the Tarrasque at 1st level, with no dependency on classes, items or spellcasting services. (but a high dependency on rule of silly :smalltongue:)

So, how is it? I'd love to gain some feedback on this.

This is impressive.. but unfortunately, Madness Tarrasqueslayer's fame would be short-lived, as there is now an Allip attacking the city, and it is not nearly as easy to kill as a Tarrasque. :smallwink:

[Chronos]

Quoth Jowgen:

Does the specific-ness of the latter trump the general-ness of the prior? Surely there must be piece of RAW out there that resolves wheter the specific-trumps-general rule applies when a spell-application is referenced by something outside the spells description.
What specific-ness of the the latter? It doesn't say anything about whether the Miracle costs XP, just that it can be done with a Miracle. If it doesn't say, then we go by what the general rule says (which is, after all, the point of having a general rule). The general rule says it costs XP, and there's nothing that contradicts that, so it costs XP.

[Inevitability]

This is impressive.. but unfortunately, Madness Tarrasqueslayer's fame would be short-lived, as there is now an Allip attacking the city, and it is not nearly as easy to kill as a Tarrasque. :smallwink:

He's still got it under his Command. The command 'keep floating all the way to the east' is already a good way to keep it from attacking you.

[Lord of Shadows]

He's still got it under his Command. The command 'keep floating all the way to the east' is already a good way to keep it from attacking you.

That's assuming he is able to control the Allip, and it's not just "chasing chickens," so to speak...

[Inevitability]

That's assuming he is able to control the Allip, and it's not just "chasing chickens," so to speak...

Then run all the way east, creating chickens on the way. It's less elegant, but hey, it works.

[thereaper]

5000 XP, maybe?

He already got the XP by defeating the Tarrasque.

[Chronos]

Hm, true, the point when he needs the Miracle is after the Tarrasque is defeated. But the XP tables don't extend as far as an ECL 1 character defeating a CR 20 foe, and even if they did, the most XP you can ever gain from an encounter is enough to put you one point short of two levels higher (less than 3000, for a first-level character).

[Fax Celestis]

Could you miracle for some souls? Souls can be used to pay an xp cost and have a gp value. Just have your pet allip take another swing at the tarrasque until you can get your spells back.

Alternatively, if you defeat the tarrasque and then kill the allip, is that enough XP to pay the cost?

[Chronos]

Once you've got Big T down, you have all the time in the world: Ability drain doesn't heal on its own, not even for the Tarrasque. But you can't just miracle up some souls, because producing items isn't on Miracle's freebie list, either.

There are ways around this, of course: You could use Miracle to emulate Planar Binding to call an efreet and use one of its wishes to finish off the Tarrasque, for instance. But once you start down that road, it's a slippery slope to Pun-Pun, or something not too far removed from him.

[toapat]

the most XP you can ever gain from an encounter is enough to put you one point short of two levels higher (less than 3000, for a first-level character).

no such rule, thats a DDO mechanic to allow better xp farming

[Svata]

Will provide citqtion once I get home, but I believe it is a rule, Toapat. Like 90% sure.

[Lord of Shadows]

Level advancement may depend on what ruleset you are operating under. The D&D 3.5 PHB has this on pg. 58:


"A character can advance only one level at a time. If, for some extraordinary reason, a character’s XP reward from a single adventure would be enough to advance two or more levels at once, he or she instead advances one level and gains just enough XP to be 1 XP short of the next level. Any excess experience points are not retained."
Source: Jonathan Tweet, et. al., (2003) D&D Player's Handbook v3.5, 1st printing, c. Wizards of the Coast

Previous editions had a similar rule. I don't see anything similar under Pathfinder rules.

[Qwertystop]

Wow this is amazing. Up next: Negative Levels the stab-happy Commoner, and the horde of Wights that keep popping up a day behind him.

[Valefor Rathan]

This is..."beautiful" isn't the right word but the only one I can come up with.

[daremetoidareyo]

Madness was born a lowly commoner named Eric on the outskirts of town. His family ran a small house farm that made just enough scratch to feed the kids. His parents believed that education was the only way to improve their lot and they traded favors and their bodies to send all of their children to school for as long as they could afford. Eric excelled in the religion classes. This life was difficult, considering that Eric needed to return home for chickenmancy lessons on the farm.

When his 7th sister was born, Eric was pushed out of the house at the age of 15 to find his own way and during a run as a migrant farmer/chicken rancher, he was kidnapped along with a few of his coworkers by a...coven(?) of kobolds that were upset by the encroachment of the plantation of a mixed hardwood forest that the group of kobolds needed for premium traps to deal with their own subterranean dwarf & gnome problems. The kobolds didn't understand that humans have heirarchies, and that migrant farmers are on the bottom of it, so no help was sent. The commoners were just replaced.

Trapped underground in tiny prison cells, Eric and his friends were tended to daily by the regional kobold sorcerer/priest of Kurtulmak who was acting as a chaplain. After a few weeks, Eric was enthralled by the religious teachings of the kobolds, waiting with baited breath and all sorts of questions for the chaplain. This was the first time that Eric was exposed to sorcery, arcana, non-human gods. He honestly cried when he thought of the injustice of garl glittergold's "prank" on the then hardworking diety of Kurtulmak. Eric identified with that struggle. Plus, all of these conversations reminded Eric of the best parts of his schooling, with none of the obligations of a chickenfarming commoners life. Meanwhile, the other prisoners hatched a plan that involved taking the chaplain hostage with a wooden knife they fashioned from a stray piece of wood left in the cell. This would guarantee that the maximum number of humans escaped, as the hostage taker would get all of the humans out of the warrens before releasing the kobold.

The Chaplain needed these prisoners to be relatively well kept, just in case they could be used in a prisoner exchange for formally recognized kobold territory boundaries. The kobolds wanted stability with the above earth kingdoms right now, while they waged a war with the underkingdom demihumans.

Eric whelched on the compact of migrant farmworkers. He whispered the plan to the Chaplain the next day while also attempting to leverage his possible tutelage from the Chaplain. He promised and begged to stay with the kobolds. The fellow workers overheard this and raged in their cells. One of them cursed Eric, "From now on, you will be known by what you sincerely have become, and you have become Madness!" At this, the chaplain chuckled and alerted the guards to the escape attempt.

Kobold warriors entered the hall and whispered with the chaplain. Then the local chieftan entered the room and joined the conversation as well. They agreed that this plan had already yielded the results they wanted. Commoners refused to fell anymore trees in the patch of forest and the traps they left in the forest perimeter were further dissuading to the human populace. Fear and a perception of danger may be the most effective tool to maintain the access to the mixed hardwood forest. The chieftan directed the chaplain to scar the migrants into telling the most ferocious stories of the kobold strength underground.

The Chaplain cast a spell that made all of the commoners eyelids invisible. The Chaplain and his assistants then tortured a few of the prisoners in front of all of the other prisoners. One of the people chosen for this torture was Madness. The chaplain took a sharpened piece of obsidian and carved the outline of kobold scales along Madnessess arms, back, and legs. Then he poured rotten wine on the wounds. The chaplain had assumed a few things: The prisoners may assume that he liked Madness and would take it easy on him. So to really prove the message that the kobolds are ruthless, he singled out Madness and really made him into an art project. The bitter irony that chaplain layed out on Madnesses' skin was to make him look like the kobold that he apparently wished he could be.

Things did not go as the Chaplain had intended. Madness persevered and laughed during the process. The maddening pain was ok to Madness as he viewed this ironic spectacle as an induction ceremony of sorts. He sputtered and shrieked and laughed through the pain, viewing himself as suffering similar to kurtulmak. His response, in full view of his fellow human prisoners made them incredibly disturbed. This turn of events just happened to align with the kobolds' need for the humans above to fear the kobolds below. As the human prisoners were set free, the warriors explained to them the awesome mind control powers of the kobolds just to stoke their human fears.

To roll with the punches, the Chaplain decided to keep Madness behind. He and the kobolds continued to call him madness and they allowed him more freedom. He learned forbidden secrets and discovered his magical aptitude and intuition under the tutelage of the chaplain. These secrets led him to develop a slight power over undead and knowledge of the allip.

A year or so after living with the kobolds, a gnomish counterstrike slew all of them. They found this scarred up human prisoner and decided to return him to the surface in a different human kingdom than where he came from because that was the best output of resources for a POW who they had no interest in.

At the surface, Madness, who adopted his curse name, returned to plantation work.

Now, at first level, A rumbling in the distance marks the approach of the tarrasque.

[AvatarVecna]

:smallfurious: BURN THE FOUL NECROMANCER! :smallfurious:

[atemu1234]

:smallfurious: BURN THE FOUL NECROMANCER! :smallfurious:

An ironic statement, coming from an Avatar of Vecna whose avatar is a necromancer, raising a skeleton.

[AvatarVecna]

An ironic statement, coming from an Avatar of Vecna whose avatar is a necromancer, raising a skeleton.

Even the Avatar of a Lich Deity fears understands and respects the mighty Ban Hammer.

[Svata]

Rise, ye thread, long since dead, haunt the forum from whence ye came.

[emulord]

Idk why everyone on the internet hates thread necromancy. That post was golden. Yay backstory!

[squab]

So, you're using an argument of "not RAW but it's logical", and that's the part of the build that you're objecting to?


And besides, it's a ludicrous way of breaking the game by twisting rules beyond all recognition. Kobolds have to be involved in there somewhere.


This thread is spawning so much great quotes.

Apparently I can't make a reply that's just quotes so here are some words that aren't quotes.

Now which of these do I add to my signature...

[Renen]

I'm not sure the name helps create an allip. It says the person has to be "afflicted by madness" not "afflicted by Madness"

[atemu1234]

Apparently I can't make a reply that's just quotes so here are some words that aren't quotes.

Now which of these do I add to my signature...

The second one is my favorite.

[Max Caysey]

Maybe I'm slow... But I dont see how this could work, or the joke of it. Either way I need help!

[Renen]

He uses contracts with evil to get a 9th level spell (wish) which is needed to kill the tarrasque (aka its specifically said you need wish to finish it off).
He then creates an Allip, which is made if a person is driven to suicide by madness. He argues since his name is Madness, that qualifies.
The allip can do mental ability damage, and cant be hurt by tarrasque. So allip damages it until it drops to 0 mental score and is KO'd.
The person can then suffocate it however he wants, and finish it off with wish.

I argue that it said allips are created when a person is driven to suicide by madness, not Madness. The difference is a capitol letter which all names start with. Since in rules its not capitol, it obviously means madness as in crazy, not allowing for the name which would HAVE to be written with a capitol.

[daremetoidareyo]

Sorry about thread necromancy.

To be totally honest, I didn't check the date after following a link from a post posted today.

I'll be more alert in the future.

What is the rule of thumb on the necromancy of threads? 6 months?

[AvatarVecna]

Sorry about thread necromancy.

To be totally honest, I didn't check the date after following a link from a post posted today.

I'll be more alert in the future.

What is the rule of thumb on the necromancy of threads? 6 months?

Forum rules say 45 days. Whether you take that as a rule or as a rule of thumb depends on how regularly enforced it is (in my experience, it's pretty fairly enforced).

EDIT: Of course, I seem to recall there being some kind of exception for compendium/compiliation/index type threads...not to say that this is one of those.

[squab]

I'm not sure the name helps create an allip. It says the person has to be "afflicted by madness" not "afflicted by Madness"

What if he calls himself madness instead of Madness? He IS insane after all.

[Renen]

All names have to start with a capitol. I think it's a rule in English language. Though I may be wrong.

[marphod]

All names have to start with a capitol. I think it's a rule in English language. Though I may be wrong.

Maybe German. but not English; English, the language that brought you the proper nous "iPod", "Kie$ha", and whatever the hell that symbol Prince used for a while.

[Endarire]

This thread is just LOL!

I suspected the trick involved casting miracle when I ready Arcane Disciple (Luck) was included. Otherwise, it was a welcome surprise to see how this unfolded. Good job, Dire Stirge!

So, what CR should an Allip be if it takes down the Tarrasque? How much EXP should it get?

[squab]

All names have to start with a capitol. I think it's a rule in English language. Though I may be wrong.

But he's INSANE. He makes up his OWN language, and In his Language All Words Have Capitol Letters At The Front Except For Proper Names. madness Likes This Language Very Much.

[daremetoidareyo]

his 1 crossclass skill rank in truespeak led to him removing the capital from his name. Across all realities. Such is the power of the one who slew the tarrasque.

[Renen]

But he's INSANE. He makes up his OWN language, and In his Language All Words Have Capitol Letters At The Front Except For Proper Names. madness Likes This Language Very Much.

But... a made up language in game has no influence on RAW

[AvatarVecna]

But... a made up language in game has no influence on RAW

As far as I'm concerned, the process of how an Allip comes to be is too vague to allow someone to do it deliberately...at least, not without putting a lot more effort than a couple hours into torturing somebody into committing suicide while afflicted by madness. There's no rule saying that everybody who dies via suicide after being afflicted madness becomes an Allip, just that that's how Allips are made; in the same way that every square is a rectangle but not every rectangle in a square, every Allip may have been a mad suicidal person, but not every mad suicidal person becomes an Allip.

And none of this matters. This build was a silly little experiment in abusing RAW. It has 1st level commoners somehow coercing demon lords into granting them 9th level spells and Miracle; it has a blatant dependency on Chicken-Infested Commoner abuse; it has name optimization. The entire build is a giant joke, and the punchline is a dead tarrasque. I recommend just sitting back and enjoying it for the wonderful little romp through insanity that it is. Just let the Madness into your heart, and you will learn to love it.

[squab]

As far as I'm concerned, the process of how an Allip comes to be is too vague to allow someone to do it deliberately...at least, not without putting a lot more effort than a couple hours into torturing somebody into committing suicide while afflicted by madness. There's no rule saying that everybody who dies via suicide after being afflicted madness becomes an Allip, just that that's how Allips are made; in the same way that every square is a rectangle but not every rectangle in a square, every Allip may have been a mad suicidal person, but not every mad suicidal person becomes an Allip.

And none of this matters. This build was a silly little experiment in abusing RAW. It has 1st level commoners somehow coercing demon lords into granting them 9th level spells and Miracle; it has a blatant dependency on Chicken-Infested Commoner abuse; it has name optimization. The entire build is a giant joke, and the punchline is a dead tarrasque. I recommend just sitting back and enjoying it for the wonderful little romp through insanity that it is. Just let the Madnessmadness into your heart, and you will learn to love it.

Fixed a typo you made.

[AvatarVecna]

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/_2K2hqyIfSs/hqdefault.jpg

[Dexam]

He could spend some skill points to get ranks in Perform (ska music) and make a check during the torture process, thus confirming that they were truly afflicted by Madness (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madness_(band)).

:smallwink:

[Elandris Kajar]

Can someone link the flaws for me?
And Chronos, do you mind if I dig the kobold thing?

[Flickerdart]

Level advancement may depend on what ruleset you are operating under. The D&D 3.5 PHB has this on pg. 58:


"A character can advance only one level at a time. If, for some extraordinary reason, a character’s XP reward from a single adventure would be enough to advance two or more levels at once, he or she instead advances one level and gains just enough XP to be 1 XP short of the next level. Any excess experience points are not retained."
Source: Jonathan Tweet, et. al., (2003) D&D Player's Handbook v3.5, 1st printing, c. Wizards of the Coast

Previous editions had a similar rule. I don't see anything similar under Pathfinder rules.
However, a character can use gained XP to craft instead of level, and IIRC that's not capped. So the commoner just needs to get a crafting feat and put out a whole bunch of scrolls or wands or whatever.

[Max Caysey]

He uses contracts with evil to get a 9th level spell (wish) which is needed to kill the tarrasque (aka its specifically said you need wish to finish it off).
He then creates an Allip, which is made if a person is driven to suicide by madness. He argues since his name is Madness, that qualifies.
The allip can do mental ability damage, and cant be hurt by tarrasque. So allip damages it until it drops to 0 mental score and is KO'd.
The person can then suffocate it however he wants, and finish it off with wish.

I argue that it said allips are created when a person is driven to suicide by madness, not Madness. The difference is a capitol letter which all names start with. Since in rules its not capitol, it obviously means madness as in crazy, not allowing for the name which would HAVE to be written with a capitol.

WHere is this from?

[Flickerdart]

Names always have to be capitalized? e.e. cummings begs to differ!

[Chronos]

I hereby give blanket permission for anyone to sig any quote of mine they like.

[Sagetim]

Seems like a waste of time to me. After all, if you have a wish, why not use it to wish 2.5 million chickens directly into it's stomach? I mean, 25,000 gold worth of chickens is a lot of chickens. Surely they would cause it to either suffer a case of exploding stomach, or it would be sated by the mass of food now in it's stomach and take a nap. Then you can maybe repeat whatever process got you a 9th level spell, and sic that allip on a sleeping Tarraeqsue, then finish it off with your second wish after suffocating it with your chickens.

Alternatively, wish for 25 million pounds of firewood (or is it 50 million pounds of firewood?). You know, apply directly to the head, bury it, or have it show up in the stomach. Whatever floats your boat.

[daremetoidareyo]

Seems like a waste of time to me. After all, if you have a wish, why not use it to wish 2.5 million chickens directly into it's stomach? I mean, 25,000 gold worth of chickens is a lot of chickens. Surely they would cause it to either suffer a case of exploding stomach, or it would be sated by the mass of food now in it's stomach and take a nap. Then you can maybe repeat whatever process got you a 9th level spell, and sic that allip on a sleeping Tarraeqsue, then finish it off with your second wish after suffocating it with your chickens.

Alternatively, wish for 25 million pounds of firewood (or is it 50 million pounds of firewood?). You know, apply directly to the head, bury it, or have it show up in the stomach. Whatever floats your boat.

The tarrasque can be slain only by raising its nonlethal damage total to its full normal hit points +10 (or 868 hit points) and using a wish or miracle spell to keep it dead.

[Anonymouswizard]

He uses contracts with evil to get a 9th level spell (wish) which is needed to kill the tarrasque (aka its specifically said you need wish to finish it off).
He then creates an Allip, which is made if a person is driven to suicide by madness. He argues since his name is Madness, that qualifies.
The allip can do mental ability damage, and cant be hurt by tarrasque. So allip damages it until it drops to 0 mental score and is KO'd.
The person can then suffocate it however he wants, and finish it off with wish.

I argue that it said allips are created when a person is driven to suicide by madness, not Madness. The difference is a capitol letter which all names start with. Since in rules its not capitol, it obviously means madness as in crazy, not allowing for the name which would HAVE to be written with a capitol.


What if he calls himself madness instead of Madness? He IS insane after all.


All names have to start with a capitol. I think it's a rule in English language. Though I may be wrong.


Names always have to be capitalized? e.e. cummings begs to differ!

As a note, in English a person's name is generally considered a proper noun instead of a normal noun, and all proper nouns are capitalised. That said, names don't have to follow the rule explicitly, especially due to the fact that where I live (UK) has changing them be relatively easy.

As a side note, who says that Common doesn't capitalise every noun? Nothing says it's grammar, spelling, words, or anything else are actually like English. :smallamused:

[Heliomance]

How are you managing to have all your physical stats at 10 while being venerable with 32 point buy? You're not a dragonwrought kobold.

[Flickerdart]

As a side note, who says that Common doesn't capitalise every noun? Nothing says it's grammar, spelling, words, or anything else are actually like English. :smallamused:
Nah, it would have to work the other way - the rules are written in English, not Common, but there's no rule that a name in Common must be capitalized.

[LoyalPaladin]

As a note, in English a person's name is generally considered a proper noun instead of a normal noun, and all proper nouns are capitalised.
Well according to RAW...

Rule 2. (http://www.grammarbook.com/punctuation/capital.asp) Capitalize proper nouns—and adjectives derived from proper nouns.
Hahaha. Just kidding, RAW jokes... hoo boy... anyways, Anonymouswizard is correct.

[Haruki-kun]

The Winged Mod: Thread Necromancy, but you may start another thread if you want to discuss this further.