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View Full Version : Sorcerers v Wizards (numberwise, not powerwise)



Scalenex
2007-03-04, 09:21 PM
How many sorcerers do you guys figure there are relative to wizards?

First figuring only PHB races, then figuring all creatures.

If it matters, you cand subdivide the first part between cultures with lots of monstrous races breeding in periodically and those without.

I'm sure many answers will be "it depends" If that's your answer please elaborate a little more.

Arbitrarity
2007-03-04, 09:29 PM
Slightly more.

According to DMG town creation rules, an average town has the same number of wizards as sorcerors, and wizards are probably rare amidst monstrous races.

Ramza00
2007-03-04, 09:30 PM
Depends on your setting and how you make magic.

Remember the D&D books are just frameworks, you as DM get to flesh out the worlds.

Sardia
2007-03-04, 09:45 PM
I suppose it depends on how fecund, frisky and numerous the local dragons are.

Cybren
2007-03-04, 09:52 PM
Sorcerer enemies lack the faults of a sorcerer player since they know what spells that would be immediately convenient since they don't need general use spells anyway. Hence, the DM will be willing to use them frequently because he hates his players

Leon
2007-03-04, 10:02 PM
I suppose it depends on how fecund, frisky and numerous the local dragons are.

Or other magical beings

Sardia
2007-03-04, 10:05 PM
Or other magical beings
With a taste for humanoids.
Makes one wonder about a setting with large numbers of sorcerers.

Orzel
2007-03-04, 10:10 PM
The more civilzed races should have more wizards since they have the time and maical resources to train.

The less civilized race should have more sorcerers since they have less magical resources and free time.

The number of sorcs in constant and based on the number of freaky magical beings. The number of wizards in an area is based on the number of surviving wizards that are commonly known that share near there.

Bears With Lasers
2007-03-05, 12:04 AM
With a taste for humanoids.
Makes one wonder about a setting with large numbers of sorcerers.

Human ladies are hot.

That Lanky Bugger
2007-03-05, 12:12 AM
Wizards are more numerous.

Sorcerers can only develop through a set amount of circumstances: A person must first have a magical creature in it's background, and then must awaken that power. Anybody can be a Wizard, however. All it takes is dedication.

(At least, in theory. Stupid weird multiclassing rules and fluff which contradicts it...)

Sardia
2007-03-05, 12:12 AM
Human ladies are hot.

While I personally agree with you, from the viewpoint of a Red Dragon they're more likely just a hot meal.
"Drazzzhughtz, how often have I told you not to play with your food?"

cupkeyk
2007-03-05, 12:55 AM
Sorcerer enemies lack the faults of a sorcerer player since they know what spells that would be immediately convenient since they don't need general use spells anyway. Hence, the DM will be willing to use them frequently because he hates his players

and heaven forbid the party wizard can actually get his grubby hands on an opponent spellbook.

Dmoogle
2007-03-05, 12:58 AM
Why does everyone assume that the dragon bit is on the dads side?

Bears With Lasers
2007-03-05, 01:00 AM
Because girls are hotter than guys. Duh.

Jack Mann
2007-03-05, 01:09 AM
I figure female dragons have a set cycle in which they're fertile, and aren't interested anymore often than that. Thus, you have long periods of time in a young male dragon's life where he just ain't gettin' any. After a while, just about anything looks good.


[font size=+1 color=red]Sabi nga ng nanay ko: Ang nasusunog, gumugulong!!![font]

/font, cupkeyk! /font!

Bears With Lasers
2007-03-05, 01:27 AM
Half-dragon cows would actually be pretty tough customers.

Tor the Fallen
2007-03-05, 01:32 AM
Humanoid populations with low int scores or illiteracy would have decidedly fewer wizards.

Solo
2007-03-05, 01:34 AM
While I personally agree with you, from the viewpoint of a Red Dragon they're more likely just a hot meal.
"Drazzzhughtz, how often have I told you not to play with your food?"
The numerous drawings and works of art I have seen an stored on my computer say otherwise...

Miles Invictus
2007-03-05, 01:36 AM
While I personally agree with you, from the viewpoint of a Red Dragon they're more likely just a hot meal.
"Drazzzhughtz, how often have I told you not to play with your food?"

Did you mean that the way I think you meant it? Because that's so very, very wrong.

Jade_Tarem
2007-03-05, 02:04 AM
Why does everyone assume that the dragon bit is on the dads side?

Because a human impregnating a female dragon would cause a half-dragon child to be born in the care of the dragon, which is a good bit more hazardous than if it's with a human. Although it all depends on the dragons and humans. Still and all, it's easier and more convenient to envision sorcerers being born rather than hatching, which is the subconcious reason why people assume dragon blood comes from the male side. That and that uninhibited, unwise promiscutiy is generally considered to be the domain of lonely and bored males, even though there's a fair chance that dragons don't think the same way.

Edit: Jack Mann's explanation is also valid, probably more so than mine.

To the OP, I would say there are more wizards, by a narrow margin. Intiuitive magic is, well, intuitive, but the wizards have a much better method for adding members to their ranks.

cupkeyk
2007-03-05, 02:19 AM
/font, cupkeyk! /font!

o_0, yes?

uhh, I don't get it...

Sardia
2007-03-05, 02:26 AM
Edit: Jack Mann's explanation is also valid, probably more so than mine.

To the OP, I would say there are more wizards, by a narrow margin. Intiuitive magic is, well, intuitive, but the wizards have a much better method for adding members to their ranks.

Perhaps the matter of attributes comes into play here, too-- a wizard with an intelligence of 9 is...well...ineffective, and that accounts for almost 40 percent of the population (based on 3d6 roll).
If dragon/whatever heritage comes associated with higher charisma, that might tip things in favor of having more sorcerers who _can_ be sorcerers.

averagejoe
2007-03-05, 02:27 AM
Half-dragon cows would actually be pretty tough customers.

That... is the best thing EVER!

I can imagine it now. A farm with all half dragon livestock. Boy that's wacky. Species interbreeding is fun!

Sardia
2007-03-05, 02:30 AM
Species interbreeding is fun!

And the next thing you know, boom, there's an owlbear.

Jade_Tarem
2007-03-05, 02:31 AM
Perhaps the matter of attributes comes into play here, too-- a wizard with an intelligence of 9 is...well...ineffective, and that accounts for almost 40 percent of the population (based on 3d6 roll).
If dragon/whatever heritage comes associated with higher charisma, that might tip things in favor of having more sorcerers who _can_ be sorcerers.

Well, it could be done that way. But the minor traces of dragon heritage, for the most part, don't add anything to charisma. Unless that's how you run your games, which is fine.

Zeb The Troll
2007-03-05, 02:33 AM
o_0, yes?

uhh, I don't get it...In case you're not kidding, he's telling you how to fix your sig. Make the ending brackets [/font].

cupkeyk
2007-03-05, 02:41 AM
I could have also cut and pasted from the board's rich text editor, which I didn't do. Thanks for whatever. It stays broken cause I like it that way.

I thought he understood the quote in filipino.

Sardia
2007-03-05, 02:43 AM
Well, it could be done that way. But the minor traces of dragon heritage, for the most part, don't add anything to charisma. Unless that's how you run your games, which is fine.

Well...let's throw logic in the blender- when we see there are no wizards of low intelligence, we can presume that it's because of the low Int score-- it's just not worth the effort to spend that much time and study to cast level 0 or 1 spells. When we notice the lack of low-charisma sorcerers, is it because the magical "oomph" just never manifests in people with the right ancestry and Charisma 10 or 12, or are the ones who have the right ancestry more likely to have a little draconic (fey, whatever) charm to them?

Scalenex
2007-03-05, 02:48 AM
I don't think the fact that wizards need civilization to recruit new members would mean that there are fewer sorcerers. If you want to talk about what man on magical creature coupling makes a sorcerer or not. I ask you nicely to do it here:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36589

I created a new post to prevent the topic of comparing wizards and sorcerers from being lost.

Since my thread on PC classes versus NPC armies ended up discussing things like how magic would stack versus technology, I've thought I'd facilitate sub-divided discussions for those who want them.

Dark Tira
2007-03-05, 05:03 AM
I'd say there are more sorcerors. Timewise it takes much longer to become/train a wizard and in that time the sorceror is using his superior charisma to seduce the ladies and make little bastard sorcerors.

Leon
2007-03-05, 05:08 AM
And the next thing you know, boom, there's an owlbear.

Half Dragon Owlbear's to boot

Jack Mann
2007-03-05, 05:25 AM
I don't think the fact that wizards need civilization to recruit new members would mean that there are fewer sorcerers. If you want to talk about what man on magical creature coupling makes a sorcerer or not. I ask you nicely to do it here:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36589

I created a new post to prevent the topic of comparing wizards and sorcerers from being lost.

Since my thread on PC classes versus NPC armies ended up discussing things like how magic would stack versus technology, I've thought I'd facilitate sub-divided discussions for those who want them.

But the two topics are directly related. Both the accessibility of magical education and the origin of sorcery are necessary to figure out which is going to be more common. It's possible that there's a wizard around every corner looking for an apprentice and the appearance of sorcery is very rare, in which case you'll find many more wizards than sorcerers. If the opposite is true, then there will be more sorcerers than wizards. Until the questions are answered, we can't properly explore the initial topic.

clockwork warrior
2007-03-05, 06:03 AM
i always thought that sorcerers (even minor ones) would out number wizards, especially among the "savage" races, simply because they breed a lot more.

i mean look at kobolds, sorcerer is there favored class for good sakes, and they are the fastest breeding humanoid races

also, isnt wizard training expensive? otherwise everyone would be learning cantrips and whatnot

Sardia
2007-03-05, 06:07 AM
I suppose one question would be comparing a combination of number and level-- say that the gene/talent for sorcery pops up a lot, but is hardly every developed given the savage circumstances of kobolds or whatever. On the other hand, a wizard might have easier resources available to him to develop his skills.
Lots of low-level sorcerers who have to take levels in something else to survive, versus high level wizards who've enjoyed the safety benefits of civilization, perhaps?

Talya
2007-03-05, 08:25 AM
Hmm. I was not aware that sorcerors all needed a magical creature in their family tree. Which is odd, as bards do not (although they certainly can have it, they qualify for dragon disciple.) I guess the "Bloodline of Fire" (Calimshan regional, character has efreeti/genaasi blood - +2 Caster Level with [fire] spells, and +4 to saves against [fire] spells) feat I took on my Sorceress for other reasons is rather appropriate.

Orzel
2007-03-05, 08:56 AM
Sorcery is similiar to a rare recessive genetic trait. Wizardry would be a long process that replicates that trait.

Sorcerers would be numberous only in places where the normals interact with the magical often (kobolds and dragons, wild elves and fey). Wizards would be numberous in places with many experienced wizards to learn from (elf nations, large kingdoms, cities with magic guilds and schools).

Variable Arcana
2007-03-05, 09:33 AM
I'd say more wizards in civilized areas and more sorcerers in the wilds. Certainly, that's how my worlds are populated.

Re: dragon dads v. dragon moms... If you're a powerful dragon who thinks of all other races as inferior (even half-dragon sorcerers)... and you're going to go through a rather long pregnancy... I'd assume you'd want the children to be proper dragons. Dragon dads don't have the same consideration.

ravenkith
2007-03-05, 09:42 AM
Logically, Sorcerors should be more prevalent than wizards in any given game world where both exist.

All a sorceror has to do is get born. Sure, it's perhaps a 1 in a 1000 chance that such a person should be born, or as much as 1 in 10000 chance that such a person be born with a positive charisma modifier, but it's a fixed rate of appearance, something that 'naturally' occurs in the world, and bam! They're ready to go.

Wizards are wholly artificial. First of all you have to have some be born who is gifted with a decent intellect. Then, that person has to decide on magic as the path he wishes to pursue. After that, the person still has to find somebody to teach him how to do magic, and survive the learning process.

That's got to be much closer to 1 in 100,000...right?

Personally, I use the rarity of wizards and the expense of powerful magics to explain why my worlds aren't mageocracies.

Bears With Lasers
2007-03-05, 05:40 PM
...I use "this isn't D&D" to explain why my worlds aren't mageocracies...

Toliudar
2007-03-05, 09:09 PM
I think that sorcerers are more prevalent, but less likely to become very powerful than wizards. Many MANY monster races either have a documented prevalence of sorcerers, or at least a reasonable expectation that sorcerers emerge (hey, you'd think that since lizard folk and troglodytes are at least of the same order as dragons, there'd be lots of little dracotrogs hanging around).

However, because sorcerers of the non-adventuring bent rarely develop their magical talents beyond what seems immediately useful to them, few have the versatility and experience to become very powerful spellcasters. Conversely, enough of the wizards out there who spend the years training to be wizards (okay, ignore multi-classing for the moment) are doing so because they REALLY want to be good wizards, and so are more likely to excel.

So, if an region might have a hundred first level wizards, it has a thousand first level sorcerers. But if there are a dozen 10th level wizards, there might be only a dozen 10th level sorcerers, and perhaps 4 15th level wizards and a single 15th level sorcerer.

At least, that's how I'd build it.

Jade_Tarem
2007-03-05, 09:21 PM
Well...let's throw logic in the blender- when we see there are no wizards of low intelligence, we can presume that it's because of the low Int score-- it's just not worth the effort to spend that much time and study to cast level 0 or 1 spells. When we notice the lack of low-charisma sorcerers, is it because the magical "oomph" just never manifests in people with the right ancestry and Charisma 10 or 12, or are the ones who have the right ancestry more likely to have a little draconic (fey, whatever) charm to them?

In other words, which came first, the dragon or the egg of charisma? :smallamused:

Matthew
2007-03-06, 03:26 PM
Slightly more.

According to DMG town creation rules, an average town has the same number of wizards as sorcerors, and wizards are probably rare amidst monstrous races.

Yes, indeed. As far as default D&D goes (i.e. Grey Hawk), the numbers of Sorcerers to Wizards in civilised lands are relatively equal (on average), but amongst Monsterous Races, Sorcerers are more likely than Wizards...

Altair_the_Vexed
2007-03-06, 03:58 PM
I'm surprised to see so many people favouring sorcs over wizzes on the population front: I go the opposite way. The fluff in the PHB seems to me to suggest that a sorcerer is a rare "exotic heritage" thing, while any smart nerd with access to an arcane library can cook up a few cantrips and an Unseen Servant.
Yes, the DMG may give equal numbers to the arcane classes in settlements, but I've always divides the sorcerer numbers by three, in a wholly arbitary, "it's my game" fashion.

Matthew
2007-03-06, 04:00 PM
Sure, but it's a question of rare relative to what? Relative to Wizards or relative to the population as a whole? I consider Wizards and Sorcerers to be rare relative to the population as a whole.

ravenkith
2007-03-06, 04:22 PM
Don't forget, any intelligent being with a modicum of self preservation is going to pick his apprentices very carefully, if at all.

I don't know about you, but I'm certainly not going to train that power hungry twelve year old how to do magic simply because he wants to learn.

Inevitably that little bugger is going to get too big for his britches and turn on me...and then I'll either have to kill him, or he'll get lucky and catch me off guard.

Screw that! I'd rather avoid the problem altogether, thank you very much!

@ Bears: so, you don't base your worlds on logic, but on "it works this way because I say it does". Way to put effort into crafting your campaign world, dude. :smallwink:

CASTLEMIKE
2007-03-11, 09:51 AM
Despite the current 1D4 Sorcerer and Wizard DMG demographics I think there should be more sorcerers and they should receive at least a 1D6 and a 1D8 on the demographic generation chart would be better with their delayed spell progression because they are a self taught class with inborn talent.

For utility most sorcerers would proably have a dog (loyal intelligent guard and companion also useful in hunting and protection), hawk (small game hunting and observing from overhead) or raven familiars (speech (deliver messages) and observe from overhead traveling and hunting plus the +2 bonus to appraise is pretty significant at low levels) because they provide common sense obervable real world benefits for a rural medieval community IMO.

Using 1D8 averages out to 4.5, 4 if you round down and 5 if you round up before subtracting for demographics (Thorp -3, Hamlet -2 Village -1) for the Highest Level Spellcaster although occassionally you could find a level 7 local sorcerer capable of casting a level 3 spell or two in 25% of the Villages and 12.5% of the Hamlets.

So with a 5 you are looking at a Single Level 2 to level 4 sorcerer as the Highest Level Resident Sorcerer "normally" in 90% of the communities (Thorps, Hamlets and Villages) although 37.5% of the Thorps still wouldn't have a single sorcerer along with 25% of the Hamlets lacking a single sorcerer and 12.5% of the Villages also lacking a single sorcerer.

Sorcerers are a self taught class which is Key and not really factored into current demographics IMO.

While anyone with a 10 Int could be taught cantrips and anyone with a 11 Int first level arcane spells as a wizard just like anyone could awaken sorcererous cantrip spellcasting with a 10 char and first level spells with a 11 char. Those Spellbooks are Expensive (You don't normally see PCs giving away Spell Books or taking on apprentices). Most NPC sorcerers starting off with a 11 Charisma are fine. Charisma will improve to 12 in Middle Age which should be plenty of time for the local resident high level sorcerer to acquire the power to fuel his spells if he or she didn't apply their level 4 +1 ability to charisma.

However it is strongly implied by PHB character starting ages that it takes Years to develop that latent spellcasting "potential" as a first level wizard in comparison to a sorcerer. It seems very reasonable that a 10 Int being would take much longer to learn how to cast spells than a 15 to 18 Intelligence being to grasp all the concepts and utlize the knowledge most effectively as both Arcana and Spellcraft are Int based skills. A level in concentration seems almost mandatory for continued successful spellcasting as many spells are concentration based although you could probably just get by without it mechanically. Quite a bit easier to just take 10 with a level in concentration for casting spells like Mage Hand and Silent Image.

Another Key Issue is Economics. Wizards normally need things like expensive spell books (or an equivalent so there is no quibbling dissenting posts) and reference books (Arcana and Spellcraft to develop skill knowledge (although basics could be learned by rote from another wizard most are smart and would probably figure their time was valuable and know a few or more reference text books would facilitate learning by a student or apprentice) to learn how to read magic and cast spells like Read Magic to learn how to cast more spells they acquire or invent while sorcerers are not limited in this fashion casting their spells.

It should be a very rare and unusual occassion for a character to just Find a very valuable discarded spellbook worth hundreds or thousands of GP just laying around unattended for the taking so one could learn to cast spells as a wizard instead of bartering or selling it. Look at starting gold for all PCs as a comparison and the fact that most treasures are guarded or owned by monsters of some sort. To put that economic in perspective a typical house costs 1,000 GP.

The Average Level One Fighter starts out with 150 GP

If people are finding several hundred or thousand GP spell books lying around to become first level wizards why aren't other classes finding magic weapon, armor and other items just lying around for the taking?

In some ways Wizardy Spellcasting Potential is akin to driving a car.

Almost everyone has the potential to learn how to drive a car and many people may want to drive. Wanting and wishing doesn't normally get them a car to drive.

Most people need to acquire a car in some manner (Like Wizards need to acquire a spell book to be really effective) normally to learn how to drive one and then acquire one if they wish to go driving anytime they wish.

Sorcerers are basically born with a Car and just need to figure out how to drive it.

Again by demographics 90% of the population live in Thorps, Hamlets or Villages.

Only 10% of the population live in Small Towns or better.

It is not until small towns you are guaranteed to find at least one resident wizard by DMG game demographics and rarely 25% a single level 1 wizard in a Thorp with a 50% of either a Single level 1 wizard or 1 level 2 wizard and 2 level 1 wizards in a Hamlet with a 75% chance of finding either 1, 3 or 6 level 1, level 1 - 2 or level 1 to 3 wizards in a village.

IMO Most of the Sorcerers would be a few (2 with a level 2 sorcerer and 6 level 1 to 2 sorcerers with a level 4) resident High Level Local Sorcerer like most of the average high level warriors in a Typical Thorp, Hamlet or Village and comparable to an Adept.

Most would know generally useful farm and crafting magics (Things like Mage Hand (Lasts while maintaining Concentration (Not to hard with a single skill point) helps out around the house and farm planting seeds and the like basically a third hand for minor tasks. Mending for fixing things. Prestidigitation for general usefulness and lasting an hour (Not Adventurer Killing Mercenaries) Probably Ghost Sounds for Entertainment or Ray of Frost for utility Making some Ice Freezing a block of water to 32 degrees to preserve food, chilling beverages (primarily to impress others) and minor occassional defense or erradicating vermin and pests at 1D3 HP. Useful Spells that would make their lives easier and help them out on a daily basis. I'd like to see Create Water (Unlikely all farms would have their own wells or good water supply so now you don't have to go fetch clean water from the well or nearby spring or creek or river which takes time and usually more than one trip and probably isn't as fresh or clean as created water), Cure Minor (1HP is a lot to a Level 1 Commoner and could set a bone) and Purify Food and Drink added to the cantrip list extends usefulness of food stuffs and should probably be taken from the Adept list as these are very useful day to day living use type spells which could be easily observed from one of the local Adepts as many of these spells have Barter Utility. Possibly Silent Image for entertainment since it is based on Concentration for duration. Mage Craft from ECS would be a nice choice as it would make most casters much more productive Crafters earning them more money or leisure time in their trade.

As most sorcerers would develop their powers young you would think Charm Person would a staple for Romantic Liasons and Wooing which would probably result in more than a few minor adventures and some minor leveling. Horses are expensive when you make 1SP a day so a free magical Mount for farmers for plowing fields, hauling loads and occassional transportation would be very useful and could be bartered for food, goods or labor. Maybe Endure Elements for utility and the harsh seasons making a cold winter or hot summer comfortable regardless of weather conditions, Unseen Servant for help with daily tasks or True Strike or Sleep ensuring most game taken down when found and saving time (hours) hunting and foraging for game/food on the hoof or significantly increasing the game bagged for the table.

Local sorcerers would be one the people generally turned to and consulted by the community to deal with local problems facing the community by most commoners in part because they would already stand out due to their typically higher charisma and would probably have status because of their spellcasting ability. Most would probably be generally perceived as being a lot more powerful than they really are.

Dealing and resolving problems would gain them more experience compared to typical residents. Go get Pete or Mother Smith and see if they will fix or address the problem with their Magic.

Just some of my thoughts. Hope it helps.