Fighter vs Barbarian

[m149307]

Which would be better in a level 6 gladiator campaign, a human fighter or a half-orc (or some other str bonus race) Barbarian? Also, I think Lion totem barb and such are allowed... so yeah. The campaign would be 32 point buy, regular feat progression, and 1 flaw.

[Vhaidara]

Race could go either way, but for class you would want
Whirling Frenzy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#rageVariantWhirlingFrenzy ) (ACF for Rage) Spirit Lion Totem (trade fast movement for pounce, Complet Champion) Wolf Totem (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wolfTotemClassFeatures ) (Uncanny Dodge for Improved Trip) Barbarian 2/Fighter 4.

[Rebel7284]

If allowed, tome of battle characters (Warblade, Crusader) are more flexible and fun to play than either fighter or barbarian.

[Red Fel]

Race could go either way, but for class you would want
Whirling Frenzy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#rageVariantWhirlingFrenzy ) (ACF for Rage) Spirit Lion Totem (trade fast movement for pounce, Complet Champion) Wolf Totem (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wolfTotemClassFeatures ) (Uncanny Dodge for Improved Trip) Barbarian 2/Fighter 4.

As a rule, Keledrath's got it about right. The Whirling Frenzy Spirit Lion Totem or Wolf Totem Barb is an extremely solid concept for an in-your-face combatant.

Admittedly, a Fighter's selection of feats would give him slightly more tactical options than "get mad and perform a full attack," but even those two levels of Barb do a profound amount.

Think about it this way. A Fighter's class features are feats. That's it, just feats, and you still have to meet the prereqs. A Fighter 6 will gave a total of 4 bonus feats - one each from levels 1, 2, 4 and 6. And remember, again, that the Fighter must meet prereqs.

A Barb 2/ Fighter 4 is giving up two of those feats. He is gaining, without ACFs, Rage, Fast Movement, and Uncanny Dodge. With ACFs, you can replace Rage with extra attacks, something the Fighter is hard-pressed to duplicate; replace Fast Movement with Pounce, something the Fighter is hard-pressed to duplicate; and/or replace Uncanny Dodge with Improved Trip, without having to meet the Int and feat prereqs, something the Fighter is hard-pressed to duplicate.

In short: Barb can do things that the Fighter, with feats alone, can't do.

Now, that said, as a gladiator, it depends on the type of gladiator: Not every pit-fighter simply charges into battle and decapitates his opponent. If you're going for a "good show" combatant, Fighter actually has a slight advantage - he can use his bonus feats to gain tactics like Improved Trip, Improved Disarm, Improved Sunder, other things that make a battle more showy. But in terms of raw power, the Barb wins.

[Vhaidara]

Actually, Red, you only lose 1 feat out of the 2 levels of barbarian (the one from Fighter 6). Which is replaced by Improved Trip. So, basically, if you wanted to take Improved Trip, you exclusively gain Rage/Whirling Frenzy, Pounce/Fast Movement, Skill Points, and Hit Points.

[m149307]

So trading Rage for Whirling frenzy is recommended? And combining the two is also recommended?

Rebel, ToB was thrown out the win by the DM :(

[ddude987]

If allowed, tome of battle characters (Warblade, Crusader) are more flexible and fun to play than either fighter or barbarian.

That's subjective. I have had lots of fun playing a barbarian and just munching things

[Vhaidara]

So trading Rage for Whirling frenzy is recommended? And combining the two is also recommended?

Well, compare them
Rage
+4 Str
+4 Con
-2 AC
+2 Will Saves

Whirling Frenzy
+4 Str
+2 AC
+2 Reflex
Flurry of Blows (basically what it is)

So the Str cancels out, you have a net loss of 2HP/level and gain of 4 AC, and you have the option of making an extra attack, which is fantastic and very hard to do.

[ddude987]

Which is the sourcebook for whirling frenzy? It just overrides rage yes? No other trades? where have I been all these times I barbariand

[Vhaidara]

Unearthed Arcana. I linked to the SRD page earlier in the thread.

[m149307]

how well does that ACF scale with later levels of Barb?

[Seppo87]

how well does that ACF scale with later levels of Barb?
Just as slowly as the original rage. Not really worth it from an optimization POV

[m149307]

Ok, so dip into Barb (taking those ACFs) then go fighter (with Power Attack and such I presume)?

[Vhaidara]

Well, obviously you want a prestige out ASAP, since neither class really loses anything.

If you want a really solid melee build that works through level 15, Horizon Tripper (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?80415-The-Horizon-Tripper-(Core-Melee-Build)) is a fun one that is Core only

[Seppo87]

Ok, so dip into Barb (taking those ACFs) then go fighter (with Power Attack and such I presume)?
Power attack, of course.
There are many good strategies that can be employed with feats. I suggest you to check this thread:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?127026-3-X-Person-Man-s-Guide-to-Melee-Combos

[Oddman80]

To expand. It is not either/or. It is of course both.

Keledrath’s build it the starting point for building an Übercharger.
The risk with this build in a gladiator campaign is that if you lose initiative, you may just lose the battle.
There are a couple of things I have found that can help tilt the scales in your direction.

Level 1: Barbarian 1 (Spirit Lion Totem / Whirling Frenzy = Free Pounce & Extra attack during Rage)
Feat: Power Attack
Level 2: Barbarian 2 (Wolf Totem = free Improved Trip)
Level 3: Fighter 1 (Fighter Bonus Feat = Improved Bull Rush)
Feat: Knock-Down
Level 4: Fighter 2 (Fighter Bonus Feat = Improved Initiative)
Level 5: Fighter 3
Level 6: Fighter 4 (Fighter Bonus Feat = Shock Trooper)
Feat: Leap Attack

For equipment, use a +1 Valorous weapon with reach (guisarme, most likely), and put on a pair of Steadfast Boots.

Now, you can charge your opponents with your higher initiative. And in the off-chance you lose the initiative battle, and you get charged, you are always treated as readied against a charge (Steadfast Boots) and can give a free melee attack for double damage. It is almost impossible to NOT get 10 points of damage when this happens, and as a result, you get a free trip attempt with Knock-Down (and on a successful trip, depending on the DM, you may get an additional attack on the fallen opponent due to Improved Trip). Now your fallen opponent was never able to complete the charge against you, (can’t even attack you, most likely, as he is probably out of range) you have just hit him once or twice for double damage, and now it is YOUR TURN!

Assuming WBL, you should have 13,000 gp to work with. The weapon should be no more than 8400, and the boots are 1400. That leaves 3200 gp.
Now you can either spend that all on 400 gp bottles of Swift Flight, in the hopes of soaring up and grappling anyone who is flying/attacking you out of the air for some ground and pound…. OR you could just make yourself a Dragonborn of Bahamut (Water Orc maybe?). Since you are starting a level 6, that means you have 6 HD< and therefore have 30 ft flight speed (average maneuverability).

Make sure to put ranks in Balance, to make sure you aren’t being taken out by marbles/grease spells – but again – the flight thing will really help out with that. As any ground based enemies you face, you can always just dive attack.

With a Guisarme wielding Water Orc and a 32 point buy stat array of 16/12/16/16/12/8, your final stats will be
STR: 20 DEX: 10 CON: 20 INT: 14 WIS: 10 CHA: 6

You will have, on average 62 Hitpoints. And on a charge (while raging), you will be able to do between 74-86 point of damage per swing of your weapon. If you are Raging, due to Whirling Frenzy and Pounce, you will have 3 swings after your charge (and possibly a 4th if you then successfully trip the opponent after knock-down). You should be able to kill your opponent without much concern.

[m149307]

Ok, so DM is asking me why he should allow the Whirling ACF. He said that rage is balanced cus it has a negative to it, whereas the Whirling ACF doesn't have one.

[Seppo87]

It doesn't increase your hit points and lasts less.

[m149307]

I told him that, and I told him I lose the bonus to my will save, which hurts because melee suck with will saves... he still doesn't see the negative.

[Rebel7284]

Ok, so DM is asking me why he should allow the Whirling ACF. He said that rage is balanced cus it has a negative to it, whereas the Whirling ACF doesn't have one.

Most class features improve your character in a positive way.... what's the negative to fighter feats? How about spellcasting?

While whirling frenzy it's certainly an improvement to rage in many circumstances, it's not always the case. Not getting a bonus to Con/Fort saves can be a big problem.

[Vhaidara]

You take a penalty to hit if using the extra attack. Also, have him find a single other ability with a drawback.

[Lanson]

Ask him why there needs to be a negative. Normally being stuck in melee is enough of a shaft to begin with to count as a large negative considering most melee monsters have more attacks and/or more strength as well as being more likely to hit (being a natural attack routine rather than iterative)

[Oddman80]

The removal of the +4 con, when going from standard rage to whirling frenzy is the equivalent of giving away 2 feats every time you rage (improved toughness). Plus - there is a restriction on the Whirling Frenzy ACF, that includes a major negative:

A character can't use whirling frenzy at the same time that he uses any other form of rage (or similar ability).

So you will not be able to benefit from Frenzied Berserker (which is actually well suited to a gladiatorial setting), Bear Warrior, Frostrager, Singh Rager, Black Blood Cultist... Or several other prestige classes that offer rage like abilities, or rage variations.

[Red Fel]

I also remind you that ordinarily, when Raging, duration is defined by the Barbarian's improved Con modifier - you know, the one he increased by going into a Rage. Whirling Frenzy does not increase your Con modifier, and thus has a necessarily shorter duration.

Additionally, if you want to have a hypertechnical reading of RAW, because you're giving up Rage, you can't qualify for any class that requires a Rage ability (e.g. Frostrager). I happen to think this is a stupid reading, and treat Whirling Frenzy as a Rage-equivalent for prereq purposes, but if you don't plan to take any such PrCs, you could point that detail out to your DM.

But as others have said, ACFs aren't about creating an additional downside. They're about taking one ability and replacing it with another. That's it. Now, it sounds like he finds Whirling Frenzy unbalanced - be prepared, if he decides that it is, to go along with it. It's a stupid ruling, but hey, we're used to melee being denied nice things.

At least you have Pounce.

[Stormageddon]

Ok, so DM is asking me why he should allow the Whirling ACF. He said that rage is balanced cus it has a negative to it, whereas the Whirling ACF doesn't have one.

As a rule +4 con is a lot better than +2 to ac. +4 con at 6th level will give you 12 HP when raging and scales with your character while +2 ac is static and will not matter in a couple of levels.

[A.A.King]

The removal of the +4 con, when going from standard rage to whirling frenzy is the equivalent of giving away 2 feats every time you rage (improved toughness). Plus - there is a restriction on the Whirling Frenzy ACF, that includes a major negative:

A character can't use whirling frenzy at the same time that he uses any other form of rage (or similar ability).

So you will not be able to benefit from Frenzied Berserker (which is actually well suited to a gladiatorial setting), Bear Warrior, Frostrager, Singh Rager, Black Blood Cultist... Or several other prestige classes that offer rage like abilities, or rage variations.

Only Frenzied Berserker offers a different kind of rage. All the other one modify your existing one. So I'm pretty sure that using Whirling Frenzy only excludes you from using Frenzied Berserker's Frenzy.

[eggynack]

I told him that, and I told him I lose the bonus to my will save, which hurts because melee suck with will saves... he still doesn't see the negative.
The negative is that you're not playing a full wizard, druid, or cleric. In this game, maybe in any game, some trades are going to be good, and some trades are going to be bad, just by the difficult nature of balance. To some extent, when assessing whether an option is balanced, you thus have to make that assessment holistically, comparing the new whirling frenzy build to the other things you could be doing, and to the things that the other players are bringing to the table. Incidentally, speaking of not playing a cleric, it might be worth popping a cloistered cleric dip on there to pick up some devotion feats from complete champion. Maybe something else also. The last two fighter levels seem a bit extraneous, is my point, though you can better justify them with ACF's.

[Vogonjeltz]

Which would be better in a level 6 gladiator campaign, a human fighter or a half-orc (or some other str bonus race) Barbarian? Also, I think Lion totem barb and such are allowed... so yeah. The campaign would be 32 point buy, regular feat progression, and 1 flaw.

Can you elaborate on the ground rules for a gladiator campaign? Gladiators typically fought unarmored, so it's worth knowing if you're going to be a gladiator only in the sense that you fight in arenas or if there are going to be special circumstances to take into account.

Personally I'd go with Fighter, pick up Melee Evasion (dodge + combat expertise prereqs) and proceed to go to town knowing your opponent can't hit you without beating high AC and another roll.

Fighter 6 could be:
Human - Dodge
Fighter 1 - Combat Expertise
1st level character - Melee Evasion
Flaw - Mobility
Fighter 2 - Improved Feint
3rd - Shield Specialization
Fighter 4 - Active Shield Defense
Fighter 6 - Elusive Target
6th - Shield Ward

Fighter could have a bonus +11, on top of armor that's an AC of around what, 30? Touch AC starting at 15, upwards of 35.

It's a different style of combat, focusing primarily on defense and picking away at an enemy.

[Aliek]

Since it's an arena and it's bound to have walls, how about Dungeoncrasher fighter with knockback feat? :smallbiggrin:

[OldTrees1]

Remember this is a Gladiator, not just a dumb brute.

(borrowing some of Oddman80's ubercharger build)
Human Barbarian 2 (Spirit Lion Totem, Whirling Frenzy, Wolf Totem) / Fighter 4 (Dungeoncrasher, Zhentarim Soldier)
Skills: Intimidate, Bluff, and Diplomacy
Feat: Able Learner
Level 1: Barbarian 1 (Spirit Lion Totem / Mountain Rage = Free Pounce & Extra attack during Rage)
Feat: Power Attack
Level 2: Barbarian 2 (Wolf Totem = free Improved Trip)
Level 3: Fighter 1 (Fighter Bonus Feat = Improved Bull Rush)
Feat: Knock-Down
Level 4: Fighter 2 Dungeoncrasher = utility & damage
Level 5: Fighter 3 (Zhentarim Bonus Feat = Skill Focus Intimidate)
Level 6: Fighter 4 (Fighter Bonus Feat = Shock Trooper)
Feat: Imperious Command



But maybe you would consider a Goliath race instead (+1LA, access to Large Size)?
(borrowing some of Oddman80's ubercharger build)
Goliath Barbarian 2 (Spirit Lion Totem, Mountain Rage, Wolf Totem) / Fighter 4 (Dungeoncrasher, Zhentarim Soldier)
Skills: Intimidate, Bluff, and Diplomacy
Level 1: Barbarian 1 (Spirit Lion Totem / Whirling Frenzy = Free Pounce & Reach during Rage)
Feat: Power Attack
Level 2: Barbarian 2 (Wolf Totem = free Improved Trip)
Level 3: Fighter 1 (Fighter Bonus Feat = Improved Bull Rush)
Feat: Knock-Down
Level 4: Fighter 2 Dungeoncrasher = utility & damage
Level 5: Fighter 3 (Zhentarim Bonus Feat = Skill Focus Intimidate)
Level 6: Fighter 4 (Fighter Bonus Feat = Knockback)
Feat: Imperious Command

[Oddman80]

I am certain that whirling frenzy's limitation would prevent it from being combined with mountain rage. Besides, all mountain rage does is give you reach. You were already considered large for everything else... And with a goliath's +1LA, Its not optimal considering there are so many better +1 LA options out there. But keep in mind, by going +1 LA, the build would be class level 5 (ecl 6). That means he's going into the ring at the beginning of his game without shock trooper and imperious command (or knock-back). And the thing that makes dungeon crasher so great, is when its combined with directed bull rush (from shock trooper). Those two combined is what allow you to get multiple 4d6's of damage as you bang the foe into the wall every 5' you push him back.

I will admit, if you think you can survive a level w/o shock-trooper, it is worth it. By taking the +1 LA hit, by taking a race or template that makes you large, you are able to get knock-back (as OldTrees1 suggested)

This lets you add your power attack bonus (x2) plus attack damage to your opposed bull rush strength check (already at a +8 for Improved Bull Rush and large). Which has the potential to result in up to 32d6 damage on top of your initial hit damage (though its far more likely to do about 16d6 extra)

[Red Fel]

I am certain that whirling frenzy's limitation would prevent it from being combined with mountain rage.

Not just its limitation; both are ACFs that replace Rage. You can't replace the same ability with ACFs twice. They're mutually exclusive.

[OldTrees1]

I am certain that whirling frenzy's limitation would prevent it from being combined with mountain rage. Besides, all mountain rage does is give you reach. You were already considered large for everything else... And with a goliath's +1LA, Its not optimal considering there are so many better +1 LA options out there. But keep in mind, by going +1 LA, the build would be class level 5 (ecl 6). That means he's going into the ring at the beginning of his game without shock trooper and imperious command (or knock-back). And the thing that makes dungeon crasher so great, is when its combined with directed bull rush (from shock trooper). Those two combined is what allow you to get multiple 4d6's of damage as you bang the foe into the wall every 5' you push him back.

I will admit, if you think you can survive a level w/o shock-trooper, it is worth it. By taking the +1 LA hit, by taking a race or template that makes you large, you are able to get knock-back (as OldTrees1 suggested)

This lets you add your power attack bonus (x2) plus attack damage to your opposed bull rush strength check (already at a +8 for Improved Bull Rush and large). Which has the potential to result in up to 32d6 damage on top of your initial hit damage (though its far more likely to do about 16d6 extra)

You might have noticed I suggested possibly replacing Whirling Frenzy with Mountain Rage(+6 Str/+4 Con, Reach).

The rest of Oddman's post was useful analysis. Although I would add that greater Reach + Knockback + Dungeoncrasher makes Dungeoncrasher great without directed bull rush. Dealing enough damage to one-shot someone is nice, rendering that someone irrelevant/defeated is not to be overlooked.

[m149307]

Ok, so someone suggested for me to take Spirit Totem Barb along with Wolf Totem second level... yet I was reading and it said I can only have 1 totem. Is that true?

[Red Fel]

Ok, so someone suggested for me to take Spirit Totem Barb along with Wolf Totem second level... yet I was reading and it said I can only have 1 totem. Is that true?

Well, see the relevant language (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#barbarianVariantTotemB arbarian):
The choice of a totem must be taken at 1st level, and cannot be changed later except under extreme circumstances (such as the barbarian being adopted by another tribe).

That's the UA Totem variant. The Spirit Totem variant (from Complete Champion) has similar "choose one" language. This language implies - but does not expressly state - that you pick one, and only one, from among the totems.

While it's generally true that you can take as many ACFs as you like if you can spare the class features, totem animals are, it would appear, intended to be an exception.

[m149307]

Ok, so no doing the Lion/Wolf totem combo right?

[eggynack]

I don't see the use of the phrase "A totem" as anything like a limitation, and even if it were, such a limitation wouldn't apply to spiritual totems, which are a thing distinct from the totem barbarian variant. Thus, spirit lion + wolf seems fine by my estimation.

[Red Fel]

Ok, so no doing the Lion/Wolf totem combo right?

Probably not. But two caveats.

First: Wolf Totem is a UA totem variant that trades off Uncanny Dodge and Trap Sense. Spirit Lion Totem is a CC totem variant that trades off Fast Movement and DR (although most people don't discuss that latter one). You're trading off different abilities, so all other things considered, they should be compatible. Further, you could argue (although I wouldn't buy it, personally) that UA totems are intended only to be exclusive of other UA totems, and likewise between CC totems and other CC totems, and therefore that the two totems - coming from different sources and trading off different abilities - should overlap.

I, as DM, would laugh at you. But it's worth noting.

Second: DM discretion is a powerful thing. You could always ask. You could always come up with a compelling backstory that explains following the form of the Wolf, but the spirit of the Lion. The DM is within his rights to allow it, if he so chooses.

Anyway, as Eggy notes, the language is ambiguous. It doesn't say you can't. All it says is that you choose "a totem" at first level, and can't thereafter change it. This implies - but again, does not state - that you choose one. But technically, nothing stops you from choosing multiple totems, assuming they don't swap out the same class features.

Besides, melee can't have enough nice things.

[m149307]

Ok, thanks.

[eggynack]

Besides, melee can't have enough nice things.
Pretty much. This holds well enough to RAW standards, such that it might not actually be all that ambiguous, and whether RAI would deny its use or not, it's really the sort of thing that melee folk should be getting anyway. I mean, you're going to be getting the part that might actually impact the game's functioning a bit, pounce, no matter what, so getting rid of the combo won't help much if barbarians are a problem. Incidentally, it looks like totem manifestation, the thing that trades away DR, is actually a separate ACF, so you don't have to lose DR for pounce.

[Oddman80]

The UA Totems for barbarian are back story fluff as to what clan you came from. It reflects some of the traits one learned growing up in that clan. If you have multiple barbarians in an adventuring party, it provides some variation between barbarians from different backgrounds. The CC Spirit Totems are more along the line of a spiritual aspect inherent to you. Something that you are born with. As such, if one ran a campaign for a group of barbarians from a single clan, this is a way to provide variety there within. But as was pointed out, since they are trading different things away, there is nothing that would keep you from taking one of each to give more variety to the types of barbarians found within any campaign setting.

[Gavinfoxx]

The Spirit totems and the Normal totems are two distinct sets of abilities. The normal totems are the animals that the barbarian culture tries to emulate the physical aspects of, the spirit totems are a spiritual patron to their tribe. So you can have one spirit totem, and one normal totem, and they can be anything, as long as the two don't interact. Luckily, Wolf Totem and Spirit Lion Totem (the two best ones) don't interact badly, and is the strongest combo.

[eggynack]

The Spirit totems and the Normal totems are two distinct sets of abilities. The normal totems are the animals that the barbarian culture tries to emulate the physical aspects of, the spirit totems are a spiritual patron to their tribe. So you can have one spirit totem, and one normal totem, and they can be anything, as long as the two don't interact. Luckily, Wolf Totem and Spirit Lion Totem (the two best ones) don't interact badly, and is the strongest combo.
Yeah, it's pretty much just wolf and horse, as far as the totem end of the totem/spirit totem combo setups go, and horse doesn't count.