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Ettina
2014-08-07, 10:18 AM
OK, here's my new character, Snowball. She's a fat tibbit with long white fur. She lives with a wizard (a family connection - either him or his dad had an ancestor of hers as a familiar) and is quite comfortable lazing about and accepting chin-rubbings, though she does go out for the occasional adventure. She develops a fascination with necromancy, gets the mother cyst feat and a few levels, but is always happy to go back home and relax.

Then, her wizard's apprentice steals a magic item from his master, not realizing it's a crucial piece of the wizard's home defense system. He sells it to a bad guy (who may have suggested that particular item, or might just recognize opportunity when it knocks) and that bad guy lets his buddies know the wizard's home is undefended.

Several enemies descend on the wizard's home, looting everything. The wizard tries to stop them and gets killed.

Snowball comes home from a trot around the city and finds the apprentice staring at his dead master, confessing his guilt (or maybe just thinking it - I'll probably give Snowball detect thoughts). Snowball is furious and vows revenge, so she implants a necrotic cyst in the apprentice, uses necrotic domination on him and the two of them go off to hunt down the bastards that killed her wizard.

I'm pretty sure Snowball is Chaotic, and I know she's non-Good. But is she Neutral or Evil? She's not harming innocents, only an apprentice who betrayed his master and a bunch of bad guys. (Her necromancy spells are mostly done on bad guys too, or raising guys who died without her involvement.) But if the retribution is excessive, that can count as Evil too, right? So how much is excessive? Is mind-controlling the apprentice for months on end excessive enough to be Evil?

I'm fine either way. I'd just like to know what alignment to put in the box.

BrokenChord
2014-08-07, 10:47 AM
I'd pin this answer on the character's conscience and methods. If they act semi-stealthily to avoid anybody other than themselves and the wizard-killers getting caught in the battle, try to protect others from the same fate instead of using their attack as an opportunity to hit them from behind, and do what can be done to help innocents who are adversely affected, then you can go ahead and put a neutral on the sheet. If they take a more pragmatic approach, "sacrificing" the group's other targets and not caring who or what gets used or hurt along the way, then Evil would seem the most appropriate.

EDIT: The issue with the apprentice is pretty much dependant on whether they confess or the character needs to mind-read it out of them. They committed a relatively minor crime without realizing its repercussions, so if they confess and the character mind-controls them anyway, it's certainly Evil. No confession, and well, you're chaotic, just call it an ad-hoc prison sentence.

DontEatRawHagis
2014-08-07, 10:56 AM
I'd put it into the evil category. Very much a "by any means necessary" type character.

Red Fel
2014-08-07, 10:59 AM
Snowball comes home from a trot around the city and finds the apprentice staring at his dead master, confessing his guilt (or maybe just thinking it - I'll probably give Snowball detect thoughts). Snowball is furious and vows revenge, so she implants a necrotic cyst in the apprentice, uses necrotic domination on him and the two of them go off to hunt down the bastards that killed her wizard.

Emphasis makes the point. Snowball is a freaking evil cat.

Revenge is generally seen as "bad." There's something to be said for righteous retribution, but there's a difference between "stop him before he kills again" and "infect him with a deadly zombie fleshbulb you can use to control and kill him." That latter one? Evil.

Seriously, the Necrotic Cyst line is seriously bad juju. Note that it's an [Evil] line of spells, so the regular use is a pretty good indicator of alignment-dropping. Definitely non-Good, but generally, even Neutral characters should be a little squeamish about it. And your character used it, not because of some higher calling or to subdue some terrible threat, but because she was seriously cheesed off.

He may not have been 100% innocent, but your story doesn't suggest that he was conspiring to overthrow his master. If anything, it suggests that he was an idiot who got flim-flammed by a bad guy. You specifically say "not realizing" - the fool didn't know that he was doing something that would put his master in jeopardy. And Snowball balances the scales by, I'll say it again, infecting him with a deadly zombie fleshbulb she can use to control and kill him.

A momentary act of retaliation is one thing. But then she uses Necrotic Domination to add insult to injury - not only has she infected the bumbling apprentice with a Cyst, but she is now forcing him - likely against his will, since he is probably horrified of this freaking Evil cat - to go on a spree of revenge with her. This is no longer "I lashed out in a moment of anger and despair," it's now "We're going to have a little fun, you and I, and one of us might survive it." This is an ongoing act of domination that leaves very little question as to where Snowball falls on the morality spectrum.


She's not harming innocents, only an apprentice who betrayed his master and a bunch of bad guys. (Her necromancy spells are mostly done on bad guys too, or raising guys who died without her involvement.) But if the retribution is excessive, that can count as Evil too, right? So how much is excessive? Is mind-controlling the apprentice for months on end excessive enough to be Evil?

Like I said, the apprentice sounds pretty close to an innocent. He was stupid enough to get mixed up in some bad stuff, and now he has a zombietumor and an Evil cat running his life. And while I won't debate whether punishing the villains who murdered her wizard is Evil, excessive retribution generally is. And the mind-control thing is pretty darn bad, too.

Evil kitty. Evil evil evil.

lytokk
2014-08-07, 12:18 PM
Emphasis makes the point. Snowball is a freaking evil cat.



or just a cat. No need to be redundant.

Red Fel
2014-08-07, 01:44 PM
or just a cat. No need to be redundant.

Not redundant. Emphatic.

Snowball isn't just an evil cat (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CatsAreMean). Snowball is evil, even by cat standards (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CompleteMonster).

Leviting
2014-08-08, 12:37 AM
... And Snowball balances the scales by, I'll say it again, [I]infecting him with a deadly zombie fleshbulb...

Like I said, the apprentice sounds pretty close to an innocent...And while I won't debate whether punishing the villains who murdered her wizard is Evil, excessive retribution generally is. And the mind-control thing is pretty darn bad, too.

Evil kitty. Evil evil evil.

While the Necrotic Cyst line is [evil], the apprentice was in no way innocent, being both a thief and an insubordinate, disloyal person. He definitely had it coming. The cyst wasn't just to balance the scales, it was both a means to an end and Punishment.

Mastikator
2014-08-08, 02:11 PM
While the Necrotic Cyst line is [evil], the apprentice was in no way innocent, being both a thief and an insubordinate, disloyal person. He definitely had it coming. The cyst wasn't just to balance the scales, it was both a means to an end and Punishment.

What? Stealing something you think is insignificant does not mean you deserve to be infected with a zombie tumor and have your volition removed, that's way excessive. I don't think he would have deserved it even if he killed the master himself.

Sartharina
2014-08-08, 02:20 PM
What? Stealing something you think is insignificant does not mean you deserve to be infected with a zombie tumor and have your volition removed, that's way excessive. I don't think he would have deserved it even if he killed the master himself.
Meh. If you can kill it, you can enslave it. He'll have his soul back when he's dead.

Leviting
2014-08-08, 03:23 PM
Meh. If you can kill it, you can enslave it. He'll have his soul back when he's dead.

Well, with the Necrotic Cyst line, not necessarily...

Leviting
2014-08-08, 03:24 PM
What? Stealing something you think is insignificant does not mean you deserve to be infected with a zombie tumor and have your volition removed, that's way excessive. I don't think he would have deserved it even if he killed the master himself.

excessive? Maybe. But stealing something is theft, no matter what the significance of the item.

Segev
2014-08-08, 04:36 PM
Eh, I'd go with TN or CN, myself. She's not really beholden to any external legal structure, but that's not inherently chaotic. It could be, but needn't be. Her use of the Cyst is utilitarian and on somebody she feels deserves a fate at least on par with death for his betrayal which led to the death of their mutual friend/master. She perhaps doesn't trust him. There's good reason not to trust one who betrays people, even if he didn't mean it to kill them.

She hasn't killed him, and if she proceeds to treat him a bit roughly but not with needlessly callous cruelty, I'd put her in the "neutral, but don't mess with her" category. Especially if she allows her dominated apprentice-companion enough freedom of will to be a person, even if an enslaved prisoner-person. I don't see her using his Cyst to detonate him and create more Cyst-infected minions.

Using Necrotic Tumor on him when she can...that might push her over into Evil if she does it just because she now can. She might remain neutral if he proves to be intractable to the point that she doesn't think she could ever trust him without him being Dominated, but I think there's plenty of story opportunity where she could go either neutral or evil. Right now, she's just neutral.

A lot will depend on her choices in the future, and some of what moral flavor her choices have will depend on the choices and character development of her enslaved apprentice.

But again: for now, just from this, I'd say TN or CN. She's a law unto herself, but she doesn't seem to be willing to use/harm innocents at this stage. Her only victim is one who other CNs might have flat-out executed for their crimes against her adopted family, and she hasn't indicated she's doing this for any sort of "fate worse than death" reason.

sktarq
2014-08-08, 06:23 PM
But if the retribution is excessive, that can count as Evil too, right? So how much is excessive? Is mind-controlling the apprentice for months on end excessive enough to be Evil?

I'm fine either way. I'd just like to know what alignment to put in the box.

To an extent it depends on the local culture as well. In many areas betraying one's master/mentor in a way that leads to their death would be a capital offense under the law. If that is the case the apprentice is getting off comparatively lightly. Also it to a large extent depends on how Snowball treats the guy and uses the domination. If he is just a puppet for Snowball to use as cover that is more evil than if the domination is a way of forcing the apprentice to work to rectify the injustice he has done that's almost certainly neutral.

Tengu_temp
2014-08-08, 06:44 PM
excessive? Maybe. But stealing something is theft, no matter what the significance of the item.

You do realize that commiting a crime doesn't mean you can do anything you want to the criminal, right? Killing someone for theft is more evil than actually stealing something.

Red Fel
2014-08-08, 07:01 PM
To an extent it depends on the local culture as well. In many areas betraying one's master/mentor in a way that leads to their death would be a capital offense under the law. If that is the case the apprentice is getting off comparatively lightly. Also it to a large extent depends on how Snowball treats the guy and uses the domination. If he is just a puppet for Snowball to use as cover that is more evil than if the domination is a way of forcing the apprentice to work to rectify the injustice he has done that's almost certainly neutral.

Disagreeing. If the local culture says betrayal of one's master results in execution, it results in a lawful trial followed by a swift execution. A lifetime of enslavement and zombie cancer is neither swift nor lawful. You could make the argument that being allowed to live is a mercy, just as I could make the argument that being infected with a bulging sac of necrotic flesh that could explode and kill you on the whim of a demented cat is hardly merciful.

Forcing someone to work to rectify an injustice he caused could be Good, Neutral, or Evil, depending on execution. Using a zombie-bomb puts it comfortably in the Evil category.


You do realize that commiting a crime doesn't mean you can do anything you want to the criminal, right? Killing someone for theft is more evil than actually stealing something.

This. The logic of, "He was a criminal, so I gave him zombie cancer and robbed him of his freedom until I permit him the blissful release of death" is pretty seriously Evil.

A Good character sees punishing criminals as an unfortunate necessity, and generally seeks to have the punishment fit the crime. A Neutral character may be a slight bit more vindictive if it's personal. An Evil character has no concept of proportionality, or alternatively relishes disproportionate retaliation.

This character stole. He stole. He didn't murder, he didn't rape, he didn't betray an army or open the gates to the enemy or forsake a deity in the town square. He stole. There is no non-Evil concept of "Well, he committed a crime, so he's free game." That's an Evil outlook.

Leviting
2014-08-08, 07:56 PM
You do realize that commiting a crime doesn't mean you can do anything you want to the criminal, right? Killing someone for theft is more evil than actually stealing something.

I'm not saying that criminals completely lack all rights, but cyst doesn't kill the target unless commanded. Think of it as a variable length prison sentence.

Leviting
2014-08-08, 08:00 PM
This. The logic of, "He was a criminal, so I gave him zombie cancer and robbed him of his freedom until I permit him the blissful release of death" is pretty seriously Evil.

A Good character sees punishing criminals as an unfortunate necessity, and generally seeks to have the punishment fit the crime. A Neutral character may be a slight bit more vindictive if it's personal. An Evil character has no concept of proportionality, or alternatively relishes disproportionate retaliation.

This character stole. He stole. He didn't murder, he didn't rape, he didn't betray an army or open the gates to the enemy or forsake a deity in the town square. He stole. There is no non-Evil concept of "Well, he committed a crime, so he's free game." That's an Evil outlook.

As you said, a neutral character can be a bit more vindictive if it is personal. This may or may not be personal enough. Even if Snowball is evil, which it may well be, the act of disproportionate (yet nonlethal) retribution is not as lethal as, say, rape and murder.

Sith_Happens
2014-08-10, 04:10 AM
Yeah, Necrotic Dominating someone for being an unwitting accomplice to a crime is probably an Evil act. But it takes a way Eviler act than that for an instant alignment switch to happen, and Snowball's previous occupation of doing more or less nothing with her life is textbook TN.

Mastikator
2014-08-10, 07:02 AM
Meh. If you can kill it, you can enslave it. He'll have his soul back when he's dead.

Killing and enslaving is on a whole another class of evil than stealing. In so far as killing and enslaving is actually evil and stealing isn't actually evil. Let's not forget the fact that the apprentice didn't do an evil act, didn't mean for his master to be harmed and didn't know the object he took was worth a lot. Intention mean something in D&D morality, in fact it means a lot. The apprentice is only slightly guilty and not evil at all. What Snowball did was quite heinous and very unnecessary, and very uncharacteristic of an non-evil creature.

Mr.Sandman
2014-08-10, 09:46 AM
I agree with Sith here. A couple of moderatly evil acts in a very stressful situation are not enough for an instant alignment shift. They are teetering on the edge though, and how they proceed may push them over that edge.

cobaltstarfire
2014-08-10, 10:19 AM
Yeah, Necrotic Dominating someone for being an unwitting accomplice to a crime is probably an Evil act. But it takes a way Eviler act than that for an instant alignment switch to happen, and Snowball's previous occupation of doing more or less nothing with her life is textbook TN.

This.

Snowball has two ticks towards evil, using the cyst, and enslaving the apprentice. But her behavior before and after definitely doesn't really present as evil.

I kind of read her cyst thing and the enslavement as an act of passion from an otherwise neutral entity, it might be the downward spiral towards CN or CE but for now all things considered she's just neutral.

DontEatRawHagis
2014-08-10, 10:54 AM
Bringing a 4e 5e idea. How about unaligned?

Hand_of_Vecna
2014-08-10, 11:02 AM
I feel like people are being pretty harsh on Snowball. Characters being magically enslave even though they didn't understand the full consequences of the actions is a go to start to adventures. You could label all of the assorted old men in caved, village elders, spirit guardians and witches that use this tactic as Evil, but they aren't in the deep end of evil.

Also, evil for a cat? Cat's default to torturing and killing for pleasure on a daily basis.

Chacha
2014-08-10, 11:26 AM
I see far less to indicate chaotic than I do to indicate evil.

As far as I can tell, Snowball has been a loyal servant to her master. If the actions against the apprentice are (perverted) justice, this actually indicates to me a tendency towards law over chaos.

I'd argue Snowball is neutral evil.

Ettina
2014-08-10, 01:28 PM
As far as I can tell, Snowball has been a loyal servant to her master. If the actions against the apprentice are (perverted) justice, this actually indicates to me a tendency towards law over chaos.

Snowball wasn't a servant to the wizard, more of a friend. She didn't really do anything he asks of her unless it appeals to her on its own merits, and the wizard mostly just had her around as company rather than for any useful purpose. She liked him because he was nice to her, and she'd sometimes do nice things for him (I'm having her do the Crystal Cave campaign solely because her wizard was running himself ragged trying to fix the problem with the mist and monsters at the start of the game). But she's definitely not a servant, and he's not her master.

Segev
2014-08-11, 04:19 PM
Yeah, Necrotic Dominating someone for being an unwitting accomplice to a crime is probably an Evil act. But it takes a way Eviler act than that for an instant alignment switch to happen, and Snowball's previous occupation of doing more or less nothing with her life is textbook TN.

The thing is, in Snowball's mind, it's not the theft but the death for which she's punishing him. This is why I don't put her on the "lawful" side of things. Law cares about such things as whether you're guilty of a crime serious enough for the punishment; retribution simply cares about making you pay for the consequences of your crime, regardless of its supposed severity in a vacuum.

She's not evil...yet...because nothing she's done is over any sort of moral event horizon, and we don't have enough piles of small wrongs to push her down the slow path to evil. We have indications that she has redeeming feelings towards others - she obviously valued the wizard, and may even have considered the apprentice a friend before his betrayal - and she is attempting to make the apprentice atone for his crime rather than exacting a physically torturous punishment. (Yes, being Dominated may be an "And I Must Scream" style fate worse than death to some, but a lot of that will depend on how well she treats him and how much freedom she allows him as long as he doesn't try to betray her again.)

IT could go either way on the moral axis, which is why I say "neutral." It certainly isn't good, but she could easily stay north of evil depending how she acts from here on out.

Sith_Happens
2014-08-11, 06:21 PM
Bringing a 4e 5e idea. How about unaligned?

That's just Neutral with a new name.

DontEatRawHagis
2014-08-13, 12:28 PM
That's just Neutral with a new name.
Depends on your interpretation of Neutral.

One of my DMs said a true neutral character tries to balance everything. The extreme being leaving the winning side to help the losing side.

I personally feel like true neutral is actively trying to stay neutral were as unaligned is just not caring.

Sith_Happens
2014-08-13, 12:48 PM
Depends on your interpretation of Neutral.

One of my DMs said a true neutral character tries to balance everything. The extreme being leaving the winning side to help the losing side.

I personally feel like true neutral is actively trying to stay neutral were as unaligned is just not caring.

In 3.X at least it can be any of the above, pre-3e the "actively keeping the world Neutral on average" thing was much more emphasized, though.