gestalt class stacking

[CryptbornAkryea]

Swift Hunter
( Complete Scoundrel, p. 81)

[General]


You have applied the hit-and-run tactics learned from scouting to your strong hunting abilities.

Prerequisite

Skirmish +1d6/+1 AC, Favored Enemy,


Benefit

Your ranger and scout levels stack for the purpose of determining the extra damage and bonus to Armor Class granted when skirmishing. For example, a 4th-level scout/1st-level ranger would deal an extra 2d6 points of damage and gain a +1 competence bonus to AC when skirmishing, as if she were a 5th-level scout. Your ranger and scout levels also stack for the purpose of determining when you select additional favored enemies, as well as the total bonus granted against your favored enemies. For example, a 4th-level scout/1st-level ranger would have two favored enemies and could allocate an extra +2 bonus against one of those favored enemies, as if she were a 5th-level ranger. In addition, your skirmish extra damage applies against any creature you have selected as a favored enemy, even if it is normally immune to extra damage from critical hits or skirmish attacks.


Awesome feat, yes? Gotta love it.

But what about for a gestalt ranger//scout?

Would a ranger5//scout5 function as a scout10 for skirmish purposes?

[Rebel7284]

This is debatable as your levels are already both ranger and scout and this aspect of gestalt rules can come into play:

- Class features that two classes share (such as uncanny dodge) accrue at the rate of the faster class.

[A.A.King]

This is definetly an "ask your DM" thing. The rules of Gestalt simply don't cover everything. I'm pretty sure though that rules say something about disallowing dual-progression PrC classes and I think a natural extension of that rule would be to disallow feats like this (which didn't exist when the Gestalt rules where written)

[CryptbornAkryea]

True, but they don't share the affected features.

[Rebel7284]

True, but they don't share the affected features.

Don't they? If both levels count equally for calculating the class feature?

Anyway, it's certainly not overpowered to allow it to work this way. Scout and Ranger share enough class features that taking both just to get a boost to skirmish damage is a fairly small power boost. Compare to something like Wizard/Swift Blade // Factotum or even something like Cleric // Monk, and the extra damage dice become less impressive.

[CryptbornAkryea]

It sets a precedence. For feats that do similar: daring outlaw, ascetic stalker...

[Rebel7284]

It sets a precedence. For feats that do similar: daring outlaw, ascetic stalker...

Yup, and none of those feats are as good as Swift Hunter, so the whole "ask your DM, but it's NOT overpowered" still works. :)

[CryptbornAkryea]

Lol, nice.

Thanks!

[sideswipe]

this i feel is covered by the rule in the gestalt section where it says that prestige classes that dual progress should be banned because shenanigans.

essentially the way gestalt is meant to function is no dual progression anything. to use it as rules as written is against the whole premise of it like a moral code.

so a common houserule/ understanding of the way gestalt was intended is that dual anything is not allowed, exactly for the reason you are asking. otherwise you could take wizard 20// something 5/ wizard progressing 15 and end up at level 13 ish having epic level spells. i'm sure there is a way to trick it but why? the rules intentions are clear enough. no dual progression or sped up progression.

[GGambrel]

I wouldn't allow them to stack in that way in a gestalt campaign I was DMing.

[CryptbornAkryea]

I hear what you guys are saying. I suppose it depends on the power level of the game.

[Immabozo]

It does depend on power level. Ask your GM.

Personally, I've always looked at gestalt as a "custom" class that has your custom mixes of 2 existing classes/PrC. So in that view, it would only apply if one side went to a different class/PrC, and then it would add that one level.

But that is not supported by RAW, just my opinion

[Kalaska'Agathas]

this i feel is covered by the rule in the gestalt section where it says that prestige classes that dual progress should be banned because shenanigans.

essentially the way gestalt is meant to function is no dual progression anything. to use it as rules as written is against the whole premise of it like a moral code.

so a common houserule/ understanding of the way gestalt was intended is that dual anything is not allowed, exactly for the reason you are asking. otherwise you could take wizard 20// something 5/ wizard progressing 15 and end up at level 13 ish having epic level spells. i'm sure there is a way to trick it but why? the rules intentions are clear enough. no dual progression or sped up progression.

I'm pretty sure that Wizard 20//anything 5/PrC advancing Wizard Casting 15 wouldn't get you the increased spellcasting due to the "Class features that two classes share (such as uncanny dodge) accrue at the rate of the faster class. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gestaltCharacters.htm)" rule - the PrC advancing your Wizard Casting is advancing a class feature the two classes share, so they wouldn't stack. However, Swift Hunter and such explicitly do cause all your Scout and Ranger levels to stack for determining some of those features, so it would be fair to read that they'd stack as a Ranger 20//Scout 20 Swift Hunter, since they're not features shared between both classes.

[bekeleven]

Skirmish increases explicitly, not implicitly. I would probably allow this if I ran a campaign, but you would get no benefit past 10th level.

[sideswipe]

I'm pretty sure that Wizard 20//anything 5/PrC advancing Wizard Casting 15 wouldn't get you the increased spellcasting due to the "Class features that two classes share (such as uncanny dodge) accrue at the rate of the faster class. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gestaltCharacters.htm)" rule - the PrC advancing your Wizard Casting is advancing a class feature the two classes share, so they wouldn't stack. However, Swift Hunter and such explicitly do cause all your Scout and Ranger levels to stack for determining some of those features, so it would be fair to read that they'd stack as a Ranger 20//Scout 20 Swift Hunter, since they're not features shared between both classes.

i was using the the wizard thing as an example of applying the same logic to another situation to show how silly it was. my post was not rules as written in any way, no rules quoting, just talking about the intention of that rule as an understanding.
it was essentially "if the logic of stacking could be applied to all things you could end up with things like this" and using that as an extreme example.

[Nightraiderx]

Made an archer in 3.P Epic using many of the feats.
Used ranger/scout/feat rogue/ fighter/ and swashbuckler.

Had full skirmish and some sneak attack to boot using daring outlaw.
And alot of feats but my skirmish damage nor my sneak attack broke progression since it was at lvl 25.

So extracting all that, he has what.... an extra d6 to damage and +1 to ac earlier than expected?
I believe scout skirmish tops out at +5d6 damage around level 20.


edit: I am also pretty sure the logic of the build falls apart because the wizard PRC's would have to be qualified with the initial side to begin with.
I've always seen it as both classes exist in a vacuum and only HD, BAB, and SAVES merge together. other than that they couldn't merge.

What is a cool example of this is a wizard 5/Abjurrant Champ 5/Swiftblade 10//Duskblade 20 because the duskblade's good BAB allows the wizard to go into Abjurrant Champ at level 5.