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View Full Version : Where do baby sorcerers come from?



Scalenex
2007-03-05, 02:43 AM
Origins
1-Sorcery is a random occurance involving the metaphysics of a world with magic in it
2-Sorcery is a blessing gifted to or afflicted on individuals who the gods want to play with their own inscrutable reasons
3-Sorcery is a throwback to a more magical ancestor
4-Combine 2 and 3, sorcery is a by-product of gods mating with mortals
5-Combine 1 and 3, sorcery only manifests with the right heritage and some particular kind of mystic disturbance

Finally, how likely is a sorcerer to have a sorcerer offspring? What if anything, could dilute the power of sorcery if it's is indeed hereditary.

There are many implications

Would this lead to sorcerers amassing power? If two sorcerers could consistently produce another sorcerer by mating, then sorcerers could "recruit" large numbers through arranged marriages and create a hereditary line of rulers with the mystical power to back up their claims.

Would it lead to magicide? Sorcerers are hunted down so they don't pass on their taint, this particularly possibly if wizards and clerics are in power.

Dhavaer
2007-03-05, 02:48 AM
Bazareene, in the Ghostwalk setting, is ruled by the Sherem-lar, a noble class of female sorcerers. They're slightly more powerful than vanilla sorcerers, and the elite, the Sherezem-lar, are more powerful still. The male equivalent are monks, and I don't remember what they're called. The Sherem-lar were created by a spell that would presumably be an Epic spell, and are only born in Bazareene. The Sherem-lar trait is heriditary, Sherezem-lar are something that happens every few generations, often in great numbers.

Jannex
2007-03-05, 02:58 AM
In some settings, don't sorcerors believe that their power comes from distant draconic ancestry?

Sardia
2007-03-05, 03:01 AM
In my campaign, dark elves aren't born, they are created through the blessing of Lolth. If they breed out with normal elves, the offspring is a normal elf. If two dark elves reproduce together, however, there's a good chance the offspring will be a little too blessed-- tendency toward sorcery and generally evil (even by dark elf standards).
Otherwise, if you want magic, crack a book.

Thomas
2007-03-05, 03:02 AM
In some settings, don't sorcerors believe that their power comes from distant draconic ancestry?

That's the default, although even then it's just some sorcerers. And some may get their powers from a similar connection to outsiders or fey.

Maryring
2007-03-05, 05:34 AM
If sorcery comes from Dragons, then why is a 20th level Sorcerer a better spellcaster than a Great Wyrm?

Altair_the_Vexed
2007-03-05, 05:44 AM
I'd go for option 3, with a non-theistic dose of 2.

Sorcery is a throwback to some distant ancesteral blood of celestial / abyssal / spirit / whatever-your-campaign-has origin.

As for dragons being crappy sorcerers, they can always take levels in it. Seems to me that a Great Wyrm that was a 20th level sorcerer as well as being a big, scaled, death-breathing, smart monster would be a little more impressive than a 20th level human sorcerer.
The stats in the MM are just the default - or at least that's how I read it.

Thomas
2007-03-05, 06:01 AM
If sorcery comes from Dragons, then why is a 20th level Sorcerer a better spellcaster than a Great Wyrm?

Because the default great wyrm has made no effort to improve its abilities. The great red wyrm Sor10, however...

I don't know if anyone else has noticed, but Sorcerer is pretty much the most common class given to dragons, as far as I can tell.

Up until they equal the wyrm's (prodigious) Hit Dice, those Sorcerer levels only add 0.5 to CR each.

Sardia
2007-03-05, 06:02 AM
If sorcery comes from Dragons, then why is a 20th level Sorcerer a better spellcaster than a Great Wyrm?

Hybrid vigor? Or the Dragon's wasting all his magical mojo powering his flight and breath weapon, etc, etc. Or his spell resistance interferes with it.

clericwithnogod
2007-03-05, 06:04 AM
The male equivalent are monks, and I don't remember what they're called.

The whipped?

The kihu-sherem guardians are males magically altered in the womb (via a sizth level spell) to better protect their sorceror rulers...by getting +2 to the DC of their monk abilities (as opposed to the +4 to effective CHA a female sorceror can get with the two sherem/sherezem feats).

Bazareene...the new Drow.

And what once may have been an epic spell now requires only a sixth level spell (though it would suck to be the Sorceror that had to burn a slot on it).

Variable Arcana
2007-03-05, 09:42 AM
I'm playing a character now who comes from a long line of wizards, but who for backstory reasons was denied training by all of his clan's wizards -- so his talent emerged as sorcery instead.

In general, though, I like the idea of sorcery being related to mixed-blood (dragon, fey, celestial, fiend...).

Swordguy
2007-03-05, 09:48 AM
Eh, I just tend to ignore the whole "draconic heritage" aspect of sorcerers, claiming instead that they are those people whom have the force of will/personality to force the winds of magic to bend to their will (as opposed to using workarounds like spellbooks). It's the ultimate of taking charge of your own fate.

RAW, though, you're looking at 1 of 4 options for the origin of a sorcerer.
1) Forced intercourse with a dragon
2) Consensual intercourse with a dragon
3) Some sort of wonky demonic pact
4) Idiotic multiclassing to get spell levels (Oh look! Somebody in my past must have had sex with a dragon, and it just now manifested! How utterly convenient that I was just about to pick a new class in which to take a level!)

Swordguy
2007-03-05, 09:49 AM
Oh, and sarcastically,



Where do baby sorcerers come from?


Their mothers.

Skydiving_Ninja
2007-03-05, 09:58 AM
Where do baby sorcerers come from?

You see Scalenex, when a human and a dragon wuv each other very very much...

Now for a real answer: I thought the PHB said they were descended from dragons and had a tiny physical aspect that proved it, like Hennet's claws. Or it depends on the campaign setting.

Maroon
2007-03-05, 10:41 AM
Sorcery, in my setting, is the result of a racial memory; energy patterns encoded into the mind of the sorcerer through heritage, that have to be explored and activated. Most people cannot reach these areas of their brain, even if they have them (non-casters), while some can imprint spells into them while they do not have sorcerous powers (wizards). Even others can channel the energy from someone else's mind to their minds (spellthieves). Some open the areas earlier than others, resulting in the ability to multiclass to sorcerer.

The reason a sorcerer cannot cast all spells from birth is because (s)he has to find them first through meditation (the spells need to be uncovered), the reason a wizard can only cast a limited number of spells is because he can only dig so deep at a time. In other words, sorcerers have generators they need to find while wizards have capacitors they need to make.

In most magical creatures some patterns are close to the surface, resulting in spell-like abilities (such as gnomes and dragons). But ultimately, sorcerous powers as the class comes down to heritage, a single ancestor that knew every arcane spell possible. Wizards are those with enough mental power to copy the patterns and imprint them in their minds, and even hold it in writing. In short, minds are like computers, only with hidden partitions you get from your parents. And scrolls are floppy disks.

That's how I see it, anyway.

Amphimir Míriel
2007-03-05, 10:42 AM
Origins
1-Sorcery is a random occurance involving the metaphysics of a world with magic in it
2-Sorcery is a blessing gifted to or afflicted on individuals who the gods want to play with their own inscrutable reasons
3-Sorcery is a throwback to a more magical ancestor
4-Combine 2 and 3, sorcery is a by-product of gods mating with mortals
5-Combine 1 and 3, sorcery only manifests with the right heritage and some particular kind of mystic disturbance


It's number 5 in my campaign world. I don't allow people to multiclass into sorcerer, though... Sorcerer must be the first class.

Same thing with Psionics... I don't buy the "but it was in me all this time, only that it just manifested itself"


You see Scalenex, when a human and a dragon wuv each other very very much...

You rule!

Titanium Dragon
2007-03-05, 06:02 PM
Am I the only one who wonders if a closet furry worked on 3rd edition Dungeons & Dragons?

More seriously though, dragons are very charismatic, so it makes sense that they'd have lots of, er, unique offspring. Plus, if you've ever seen furry, er, "pictures" *coughs*, you'd know dragons are constantly at it with other species. Besides, if dragons really reproduced as often as they do according to the Draconomicon (up to a clutch a year) the world would be overrun with them.

IMC generally people claim draconic/fey/(insert magical creature here) ancestry, but they don't really know if it is true generally.

Bears With Lasers
2007-03-05, 06:05 PM
Sorcery is like fish.

Swordguy
2007-03-05, 06:06 PM
Am I the only one who wonders if a closet furry worked on 3rd edition Dungeons & Dragons?


One did.

No, I can't elucidate. My uncle would shoot me for telling his "worked at TSR" stories.

Neo
2007-03-05, 06:12 PM
You may think dragons breed like crazy, but do you know how many a lvl20 party can go through in an afternoon?

Way I see it sorcerors come from any lineage involving naturally magical creatures.

Bears With Lasers
2007-03-05, 06:13 PM
Or from lineage involving plot.

...we need a "half-Plot" template.

Seffbasilisk
2007-03-05, 06:15 PM
Sorcery is like fish.

PRECISELY!

Mewtarthio
2007-03-05, 06:22 PM
It's number 5 in my campaign world. I don't allow people to multiclass into sorcerer, though... Sorcerer must be the first class.

Same thing with Psionics... I don't buy the "but it was in me all this time, only that it just manifested itself"

Well, psions are Int-based casters, so I'd be more than willing to buy that somebody can spend a whole lot of intensive study to become a psion (like the Second Foundationers in the Foundation series).


Am I the only one who wonders if a closet furry worked on 3rd edition Dungeons & Dragons?

More seriously though, dragons are very charismatic, so it makes sense that they'd have lots of, er, unique offspring. Plus, if you've ever seen furry, er, "pictures" *coughs*, you'd know dragons are constantly at it with other species. Besides, if dragons really reproduced as often as they do according to the Draconomicon (up to a clutch a year) the world would be overrun with them.

IMC generally people claim draconic/fey/(insert magical creature here) ancestry, but they don't really know if it is true generally.

Don't you mean, uh, "scaleys"?


Sorcery is like fish.

You mean its healthy for you but you can choke on all those nasty bones if you're not careful?

Dhavaer
2007-03-05, 06:31 PM
Sorcery is like fish.

Je suis poisson.

For some reason this was considered hilarious in my year 8 French class.

Seffbasilisk
2007-03-05, 06:41 PM
I am fish?

Jack_Simth
2007-03-05, 06:41 PM
Because the default great wyrm has made no effort to improve its abilities. The great red wyrm Sor10, however...

I don't know if anyone else has noticed, but Sorcerer is pretty much the most common class given to dragons, as far as I can tell.

Up until they equal the wyrm's (prodigious) Hit Dice, those Sorcerer levels only add 0.5 to CR each.

Not according to the Improving Monsters guidelines (as least, as presented in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#associatedClassLevels))

A spellcasting class is an associated class for a creature that already has the ability to cast spells as a character of the class in question, since the monster’s levels in the spellcasting class stack with its innate spellcasting ability.

Bears With Lasers
2007-03-05, 06:42 PM
You mean its healthy for you but you can choke on all those nasty bones if you're not careful?

Give a man a sorcery, and he'll be fed for a day; teach a man to sorcery, and he'll be fed for a lifetime.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-03-05, 07:23 PM
Here's how I run it: this is my interpretation of the Eberron setting, but I'd probably adapt it to most others:

The world is innately magical. There is ambient magical energy just like Earth has ambient magnetic energy (Eberron has this as well, but that's unrelated). The Weave, The Force, call it what you will - it exists, and in Eberron, it physically expresses itself in Dragonshards and other innately magical things. Many theories have been posited about why it exists: the souls of the ancient Progenitor Dragons that supposedly make up Eberron, Khyber, and Syberis, the harmonic motion of the moons, the Gods' will. No one's completely certain of the why. All they know is the what.

Sorcerers can manipulate this energy in various forms through force of will. When a Sorcerer casts a spell, he's mentally drawing from the innate magic of the world and shaping it to his will. Sorcerers do this through strict mental training, similar to yet wholly distinct from that of Wizards, who draw and shape magic by learning and applying the physical laws that govern it. Sorcerous power is not innate, although it is easier for some than others - some consider this a "spiritual descent" from the Progenitor Dragons, but no non-Dragon is claiming a physical draconic ancestor. People that do are considered madmen, and usually, some offended dragon's lunch.

So basically, 1), with the caveat that anyone can do it if they try hard enough.

Vaynor
2007-03-05, 07:30 PM
It's number 5 in my campaign world. I don't allow people to multiclass into sorcerer, though... Sorcerer must be the first class.

Same thing with Psionics... I don't buy the "but it was in me all this time, only that it just manifested itself"

That's how I tend to rule it in all of my campaigns.

I generally tend to think of sorcerer as an innate magical ability gained from mixed blood, generally blood from an ancient ancestor of magical ability.

Draz74
2007-03-05, 08:01 PM
Because the default great wyrm has made no effort to improve its abilities. The great red wyrm Sor10, however...

I don't know if anyone else has noticed, but Sorcerer is pretty much the most common class given to dragons, as far as I can tell.

Up until they equal the wyrm's (prodigious) Hit Dice, those Sorcerer levels only add 0.5 to CR each.

As someone else mentioned, this last part is wrong -- Sorcerer levels are associated levels for dragons.

The best part about a dragon with levels in Sorcerer, though? A familiar with MASSIVE saves, HP, and BAB. :smallamused: Too bad it still does practically no damage, although it can deliver some mean touch spells, or if you can get its Strength up to 13 somehow, maybe you can get it to take Power Attack.

Amphimir Míriel
2007-03-05, 08:43 PM
Well, psions are Int-based casters, so I'd be more than willing to buy that somebody can spend a whole lot of intensive study to become a psion (like the Second Foundationers in the Foundation series).

Well, but the Second Foundationers were trained since childhood in an enviroment that had evolved into creating a race of psions, IIRC...

No one in the Foundation saga (as far as I have read) just decides to "develop" psionic powers.

As I see it, a Psion is someone that is born with psionic abilities, but was fortunate enough to find someone to train him.

Mewtarthio
2007-03-05, 08:50 PM
Well, but the Second Foundationers were trained since childhood in an enviroment that had evolved into creating a race of psions, IIRC...

No one in the Foundation saga (as far as I have read) just decides to "develop" psionic powers.

True, but my point was that Second Foundationers are otherwise normal human beings (albeit very intelligent ones). If Asimov had instead written about Second Foundationers with the ability to throw fire from their hands and shoot lasers that turn people into dust, I'd be using them as an example of the Wizard. Do you let people multiclass into Wizard? If so, why not Psion?

Murongo
2007-03-05, 08:58 PM
I kinda like the idea of sorcery by infection, like a vampire or something. Only really works in a campaign where arcane spellcasters are "witches" and are reviled by society. Otherwise everyone would want the virus...

But in most campaigns we use the classic "you have some fey/demonic/celestial/draconic blood."

Does anyone else remove mundane spell components when it comes to sorcs? I mean c'mon "I literally bend existence with my very will, my soul spills forth in the form of flame... that... requires... bat... guano..."

I_Got_This_Name
2007-03-06, 12:25 AM
If you realize that the mundane material components are usually jokes, they fit sorcerers much better. Bat guano = saltpeter and carbon; add some sulfur to that (and purify the stuff you want to get rid of everything else), since that's the other material component.

So, to cast Fireball, you wave your hands while shouting gibberish, then throw some gunpowder. If you interpret it that way (the sorcerer is able to empower the gunpowder, rather than release fire directly), it might make more sense. That said, they don't do anything for game balance and they aren't particularly funny, so you'd lose nothing from your game by dropping them.

The Dungeonomicon (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=9483558&postcount=6) has more on this, and points out the jokes better.

gaymer_seattle
2007-03-06, 12:45 AM
I tend to think of Wizards and Sorcerers in terms of art and literature. Sorcerers are born with this innate talent. They can pick up a brush and they just can create something amazing with very little effort. They of course can focus and refine their skills, but right from the beginning they have it.

Wizards are like writers. They have to learn rules and vocabulary and the general understanding of literature. Ultimately they have a lot more tools for creating their craft. They can write fantasy, sci-fi, horror, mystery, romance so and so forth, while few artists can produce something like Rembrandt as well as Stan Lee.

I think the dragon, fey or infernal blood is entirely for flavor. Sorcerers have a penchant for being a bit mysterious about their background. The who dragon-lineage thing just adds to it

Krimm_Blackleaf
2007-03-06, 01:30 AM
In my campains/with my characters sorcerers are the magical byproducts of an ancient magical ancestor. Usually dragons, fiends, celestials or just any outsider of any type and fey. And on rare occasion a purely magical anomoly will happen and bam, sorcerer.

Leon
2007-03-06, 06:52 AM
A Wizard Squared

martyboy74
2007-03-06, 04:39 PM
In my campains/with my characters sorcerers are the magical byproducts of an ancient magical ancestor. Usually dragons, fiends, celestials or just any outsider of any type and fey. And on rare occasion a purely magical anomoly will happen and bam, sorcerer.

So the midichloreans were his father?:smallbiggrin:

Amphimir Míriel
2007-03-06, 06:39 PM
True, but my point was that Second Foundationers are otherwise normal human beings (albeit very intelligent ones). If Asimov had instead written about Second Foundationers with the ability to throw fire from their hands and shoot lasers that turn people into dust, I'd be using them as an example of the Wizard.


As any enchanter will tell you, magic is not just about throwing fire from your hands...

And as any pyrokineticist will tell you, psionics is not just about mindcontrolling people...


Do you let people multiclass into Wizard? If so, why not Psion?

Because Wizards study hard to get their abilities, Psions and Sorcerers are actually born with a talent.

In a D&D world, anybody who's intelligent enough can study wizardry, but sorcery is (like art) something that, while you can practice hard to improve it, ultimately is something you are born with...

Of course, this is in my world... your mileage may vary.


Besides, using the rule that states that "any sufficiently advanced technology is just like magic" then the first foundationeers were the wizards! (in fact they were called "wizards" by other, less advanced cultures)

Bears With Lasers
2007-03-06, 06:46 PM
Is there some reason it's not possible to have one's magical talent wake a little later than usual?

martyboy74
2007-03-06, 06:52 PM
Yes; It lowers the cheesification level.

NullAshton
2007-03-06, 06:52 PM
So the midichloreans were his father?:smallbiggrin:

...wheeee, idea for a sorcerer background. No, wait, soulknife background!

SpiderBrigade
2007-03-06, 06:56 PM
Psions and Sorcerers are actually born with a talent. I see the point on Sorcerers, here, but I think many will disagree that this is true for Psions. I think the point Mewthario was trying to make is that as Int-based manifesters, Psions are supposed to be about mental training much more than inborn potential. Similar to how wizards can learn incantations, a psion learns the mental focus he needs to manifest. Sort of like Scientology is supposed to be. Everybody is able to do it in theory, if they spend the time on it.

Emperor Tippy
2007-03-06, 07:05 PM
If you want to multi class into sorcerer or psion in one of my campaigns you just ask and I make sure that a quest occurs to explain it. For example you are captured by a wizard who does a few experiments on you and after you get away you start to notice that you can do stuff with your mind/will.

Doc_Outlands
2007-03-06, 11:10 PM
The best part about a dragon with levels in Sorcerer, though? A familiar with MASSIVE saves, HP, and BAB.

If a Dragon Sorcerer took the Improved Familiar feat, could he have a human Fighter as a familiar??

BCOVertigo
2007-03-06, 11:36 PM
If you want to multi class into sorcerer or psion in one of my campaigns you just ask and I make sure that a quest occurs to explain it. For example you are captured by a wizard who does a few experiments on you and after you get away you start to notice that you can do stuff with your mind/will.

For some reason I had the mental image of a barbarian with a greaclub "awakening the potential" of a psion with a critical hit to the head....hehe....
:smallbiggrin:

That's totally my backstory if I ever play a psion. In reality it could be that I just got an explosive case of amnesia from that hit but that's not important.

Assassinfox
2007-03-07, 12:07 AM
I just assume that sorcerers are people who use magic through sheer force of will and not just the results of kinky interspecies breeding.