Creating a perfect tank

[maniacalmojo]

So i joined a game with some friends and we play every week from this module. Came to discuss about good builds after we fought against a dwarven defender and i started to hypothesize about a perfect tank. A tank needs a few things, HP, AC, saves, Healing and dr basically in that order and a way to lock in or attract enemies is also a must.

This build does not use flaws, races outside of PHB or casters.
I was thinking for a level 9 charecter be a dwarf. Ranger 1, Paladin 2, crusader 2, deepwarden 2, Dwarven defender 2. Ranger gives some skill points early and allows access to all the skills needed for deepwarden later, paladin 2 gives lay on hands but way more importantly it gives charisma to saves. Crusader is a good tank and place holder plus the maneuvers are fantastic, deepwarden 2 gives con to AC instead of dex (So you can bypass the penalty that armor normally gives plus as a dwarf you should have a lot of con, reduces mad) Dwarven defender is also fantastic.

Crusaders are always going to be the default "pure tank class" but i wanted something that went a bit in a different direction.

Pros i see.
-HP, if you start with 18 con to start before racial adjustments you can have 22 con by eighth which is pretty impressive.
-Tanking maneuvers. The devout manevuers are pretty impressive and fits well.
-Fluff, A dwarf of moradin who patrolled the under dark and learned how to fight and defend. Works without seeming at all cheesy to me.
-Saves, when i made a write up this charecter had a 18 bonus to fort, 7 to reflex and a 12 for will which is not too much to laugh at.
-AC, if you have 22 con like i said earlier then all of that is going into AC, Plus if you have a good shield and some adamentine armor your ac goes up a lot and you get a nice DR boost on top of that.
-Aggro, a few of the abilities of some of the classes make you good at making it so monsters are less likely to rush past you.

Cons
-Damage- Not really too great at damage, relies a bit on party and enhancments
-Maneuverability, You will spend a lot of time sticking around one spot.
-Range, Yeah..

What do you think? I like this a bit but any thoughts on it would be appreciated.

[Amphetryon]

Seems to suffer a good bit in the "ways to draw enemies to you" category, which you've identified as one of the goals. Knight (PH2) and, to an extent, Crusader are the only non-casting base classes that can really approximate this ability in 3.X.

As is so often the case in 3.X, a straight Druid is a better answer here.

[Ellowryn]

Crusaders are indeed going to be the best "tank" characters in the game. With maneuvers like Defensive Rebuke, Iron Guard's Glare, and Thicket of Blades the can force opponents to focus on them. Knights aren't that good in that their one "tank" ability scales with class level and ONLY works if nobody else touches the target.

As for Deepwarden even if you are substituting Con for Dex you are still limited by max dex on an armor, and you want good dex anyways for AoO's so you really dont gain anything for the class and it requires a bad feat to enter. And Dwarven Defender is bad cause not being able to move is bad. Period.

[Red Fel]

So i joined a game with some friends and we play every week from this module. Came to discuss about good builds after we fought against a dwarven defender and i started to hypothesize about a perfect tank. A tank needs a few things, HP, AC, saves, Healing and dr basically in that order and a way to lock in or attract enemies is also a must.

First off, tanking generally does not work in D&D, because enemies are extremely mobile. That said, there are certain ways to work a tank. Most of the stuff you described? Not vital. Let's run down the list: HP: Only slightly more valuable to you than to most PCs. Just because your job is to keep things from hitting the squishies doesn't mean they have to be able to successfully hit you. The best tanking keeps an enemy from doing anything, and when he can't act, your sky-high HP is a bit silly. AC: Like HP, but worse. AC does not scale well. Many enemies at higher levels will either target your saves, which renders AC irrelevant, or your touch AC, which means that adamantine plate is more of a liability than an asset. And again, if you're doing your job right, enemies aren't attacking anyone. Saves: No more valuable for you than for anyone else. Certainly valuable, but that's not unique to a tank. Healing: Not terrifically relevant. Useful if you have an action-efficient method of receiving it, such as Devoted Spirit maneuvers, but not terribly relevant. Your job is to lock enemies down, not to be a band-aid. DR: See AC. Slightly more useful if you're getting hit a lot, in that it shaves damage off of the total, but unless it's DR/-- or DR/special metal, chances are enemies will be able to overcome it at higher levels. Lockdown methods: This, you're right, is the vital point.
What things are valuable to a tank that you didn't mention? Dex: This is where your AoOs come from. AoOs are one of the most straightforward ways to act when it isn't your turn, which is how you can interrupt other people and stop them from hurting your squishies. Str: Chances are, this is your primary source of damage. Pump it. Extra actions: If you have a way to break the action economy, do so. Mobility: Fast movement, flight, teleportation, anything you can do to move around the battlefield quickly. A tank is useless if he can't be on top of the threat. Concealment: Better than AC or DR is the ability to simply not be hit. No AC to overcome, no DR to overpower, just a percentage chance for the attack to straight-up fail.


I was thinking for a level 9 charecter be a dwarf. Ranger 1, Paladin 2, crusader 2, deepwarden 2, Dwarven defender 2.
Wow, that looks messy. Let's see your reasoning.


Ranger gives some skill points early and allows access to all the skills needed for deepwarden later,
Here's the thing. Your max rank in a class skill is your level +3. So if you had an adequate source of skill points, you could cap those skills at Ranger 2. Your max skill in a cross-class skill is half of that. So you could get these skills to rank 5 at around level 7 for a non-Ranger.

These are class skills for you for precisely 1 level. That won't make them class skills forever. In theory, again if you had a source of sufficient skill points, you could put 4 into each of Climb, Heal, Jump, Knowledge (dungeoneering) and Survival. However, after that, you wouldn't be able to put in a fifth point until level 7. You'd need a second level of Ranger, and I'm not sure it's worth it.


paladin 2 gives lay on hands but way more importantly it gives charisma to saves.
As a Dwarf, you have a Cha penalty. What exactly do you expect to add to your saves?


Crusader is a good tank
Yes.

and place holder
And no. Crusader isn't a placeholder - Crusader is one of a handful of classes that's considered to be at the core of a solid "tanking" build. It should be a focus, not an after-the-fact fill-in.


plus the maneuvers are fantastic,
And you're not getting them. The two stances you want most of all are Iron Guard's Glare and Thicket of Blades. IGG you can take at Crusader 1, easy. You get a second stance at Crusader 2. But ToB is a 3rd-level stance, meaning that you need an IL of 5+. Your Crusader IL is 3 - 2 levels from Crusader, and 1 from 1/2 of your non-Crusader levels (1 Ranger + 2 Paladin / 2 = 1.5, rounded down to 1). By dipping it so briefly, so early on, you miss out on the IL necessary. Either dip Crusader at a higher level, or hold on in the class for longer.


deepwarden 2 gives con to AC instead of dex (So you can bypass the penalty that armor normally gives plus as a dwarf you should have a lot of con, reduces mad)
It does give Con to AC, which is nice. The problem is that you still haven't resolved the other things that Dex gives you, such as extra AoOs, which you need. So this requires a major investment of skills and a useless feat, for a payoff that's only so-so.


Dwarven defender is also fantastic.
You're taking 2 levels of DD. You've given up 3 useless feats to get into it, and you're only taking 2 levels. First off, that seems silly to me. But let's see what you get.

At DD 2, you've gotten precisely 3 things: A +1 dodge bonus to AC. This is actually good for you, because it applies to touch AC. Defensive Stance 1/day. It's sort of like a Rage. It's got some useful stuff, and then some crappy stuff. The dodge bonus and ability modifiers are nice. The lack of mobility is really, really bad - any enemy who can teleport renders this utterly useless. Uncanny Dodge. Eh, it's decent. It simply means you retain your dodge bonus and Dex to AC when otherwise flatfooted.
And for these benefits, you've given up 3 feats and two levels.

With the exception of Crusader, none of the classes you've mentioned actually "tank." They just sit there and endure hits until and unless the enemy figures out that it can move faster than a Dwarf. That's not tanking. You can place a rather large rock on the ground and it will accomplish the same purpose.


Crusaders are always going to be the default "pure tank class" but i wanted something that went a bit in a different direction.

Crusaders are going to be the default because Crusaders have the much-desired mechanics to make tanking possible. Other classes, generally, do not.

That said, allow me to offer you an alternative. Look in my sig. There is a handbook on a Dwarf-exclusive PrC, the Ironsoul Forgemaster. It has abilities that enable it to gain DR/--, energy resistance, and the ability to stun on hit with a weapon. The former two are useful to anyone who plans to receive a great deal of pain; the latter is valuable for anyone who wants to lock his enemies down.

Take several levels of Crusader, and one of Incarnate. Grab Thicket of Blades and Iron Guard's Glare. Take a reach weapon. Consider taking Karmic Strike over Robilar's Gambit - the prereqs are a bit higher for KS, but unlike RG, an AoO from KS is resolved before your enemy attacks - meaning that, if you can successfully lock him down, stun, or kill him, his attack never connects.

Incarnate soulmelds will let you do things like fly. Alternatively, take a level of Totemist, and grab the Blink Shirt, which will let you Dimension Door at-will (although you can't act after using it). Because the Forgemaster advances meldshaping, you can use soulmelds to give your tanking build a unique degree of versatility. There are soulmelds to gain mobility, concealment, ability damage resistance, all sorts of useful effects that can benefit you and your party.

[eggynack]

As is so often the case in 3.X, a straight Druid is a better answer here.
Yeah, you don't have any particular way, apart from BFC, of drawing enemies into your walls of meat, but it helps that you have a lot of them, and it doubly helps that they can make use of a variety of combat maneuvers on a whim.


You're taking 2 levels of DD. You've given up 3 useless feats to get into it, and you're only taking 2 levels. First off, that seems silly to me. But let's see what you get.

That's not really valid logic on a larger scope, as there are classes with big prerequisites, big initial benefits, and poor later benefits. The big example of that is spelldancer. However, your general assertion, that dwarven defender sucks, is an accurate one. I'm not sure where the idea that the class is fantastic is coming from, but it's not.

@ Maniacalmojo: I understand the drive to be creative, or to try to do things in a different way, but to some extent, I feel like you're sacrificing actual tanking competence at the altar of novelty. Your goal would likely just be better accomplished by making the base of your build a crusader/deepstone sentinel of some variety, maybe including one of the dips you listed in order to make the crusader stance progression run easier. Such a build would be more elegant, and it would likely be closer to a perfect tank.

[Sartharina]

... I'm not seeing any tanks here, at all.