Creating a Commoner XP Farm

[supersonic29]

I had someone bring up the fact that commoners actually have a challenge rating in another thread, which got me thinking.
A first level commoner, theoretically the average commoner, is possibly the biggest pushover of a living thing in d&d, but if they're still worth XP then that can be exploited.

If you can make a first level character that can efficiently control 1st level commoners somehow in order to bring them somewhere secluded, you could initiate combat with a number of them you can handle at once. Do that in a big enough city and you can keep it low key at first level I'm sure.

Maybe from there one would even aim to cycle the bodies through some kind of undeath in order to prevent a need for a constant inflow of new commoners? After all, no matter what you're killing the idea is that this horrible "training grounds" would let you farm XP.

I'd love to hear ideas on this, or to know if anyone has done something to the same effect already, despite the fact I'm sure it would fall into the 'fine on paper yet my dm threw books at me' category. :smallbiggrin:

[Friv]

That's a monstrous, terrible idea.


Because you'll be way under WBL if you level up that way. Commoners don't have any cash, and you'll have to buy them all mundane weapons, and you'll need enough simple weapons they can all use them... you'll end up at Level 4 or 5 with a rusty sword and a chain shirt, and nothing you can gain XP from because everything in your CR rating is geared to the challenge you'd be if you had magic.

[Coidzor]

Well, the obvious thing would be to start a cult or take over a village or what have you.

You receive XP for non-lethal take-downs. Start a wrestling tournament or whatever and have the commoners wrestle one another and the like, repeatedly. Use your favored method of determining level in-game to see if the commoners are capable of leveling up, checking periodically.

Beat them down for XP. If they can level, then raise their level by having them fight amongst themselves so that you can increase the amount of XP they're worth to you as well as their potential use as minions.

Potentially look into how to retrain those levels so that your minions are even more useful to you.

Really though, this is only good if you're also pursuing ways of breaking your WBL cap so you can afford proper gear for yourself and your high level commoner or even warrior, expert, or adept. Or even, dare you hope, PC-classed minions.

If you're after crafting XP, I believe this may suffice as a short term thing, but you'd really want to just do the LE Mendicant Scheme if you want a longterm source of crafting XP.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Assuming that anything resembling an "XP farm" isn't DM fiated away, safe commoner farming isn't the way to go. Ironically, keeping it "low key" will probably involve Stealth, Gather Information and Bluff checks against guards and other authorities and these encounters will be worth more xp than the Commoners. You can contrive much better XP farming with traps.

Tippy made an advanced version in typical Tippy fashion where you walked down a hallway triggering a trap that cast an energy resistence spell on you then you walked through a series of traps that now couldn't hurt you. Rinse and Repeat until the traps aren't worth XP anymore. You could repeat this process with higher level traps, but he figured that the first version would get you to a level where the powers that be would find you useful, but not a threat.

If knowledge of the traps was ruled to make them not XP worthy, he added a mindrape trap to make them forget the traps.

[supersonic29]

So what I'm getting is:

A. Your WBL is gone
B. XP would curve way down

So is there a way to perhaps start making the commoners bodies higher CR undead efficiently once you killed a bunch of them? Lets ignore the WBL for now and assume this character has a vow of poverty.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

assume this character has a vow of poverty.

Perhaps we should assume a means of non item dependence that

a) works

b) doesn't require exalted Good

Alternatively we could assume that the world is a nonscaling sandbox; meaning that quickly gaining levels in a risk free fashion without gaining gold is a net gain.

Poor choice or words aside. You'll need a way to create undead without spending gold. You could use a means of getting a spell like via something like spell stitched. You could also just kill them with fell drain sonic snap so they come back as CR 3 wights. You also use resetting traps of create undead, but I already mentioned a better way to farm xp using spell traps.

If the DM doesn't fiat away XP farms you may as well use the best possible one.

[supersonic29]

You'll need a way to create undead without spending gold. You could use a means of getting a spell like via something like spell stitched. You could also just kill them with fell drain sonic snap so they come back as CR 3 wights.

What's the earliest level you could manage something like this? CR 3 would probably be a reasonable step up after killing a fair no. of commoners.

Also as for the better than vow of poverty, I seem to recall a class or two that "can't own more than they can carry." Wu-Jen maybe? Not sure if they're worth a thing at all.

[daremetoidareyo]

Well, the obvious thing would be to start a cult or take over a village or what have you.

If you're after crafting XP, I believe this may suffice as a short term thing, but you'd really want to just do the LE Mendicant Scheme if you want a longterm source of crafting XP.

As a DM, there are some kills that I give absolutely no xp for: no xp for setting rat traps at random around the sewer for the sole purpose of collecting easy XP. It's dumb. Random encounters, Roleplay, obstacle defeat, and story awards are the only way to get xp. D&D is collective storytelling, right? You can slay low level whatevers on any videogame rpg ever made for a bonus. D&D offers the versatility and ridiculous unexpected to players and DMs alike and this metagaming behavior actively destroys a believable narrative.

However,

This idea can be made into a workable storyline that could actually be fun. OP obviously wants to break the xp system similar to a videogame why not give him the tools to complete the task in a way that has a narrative function. What if the DM gave him info and research time about an ancient artifact that converted the ritual sacrifice of a lowly innocent person into XP. "It allowed the kings of old to become incredibly mighty, without the necessary effort to actually earn their powers. So a ragtag group defeated the king and hid the artifact in some hard to reach place (near Aboleths!) So there is a big quest to get it. Then, it would need to be implemented, what commoners to choose? The artifact could be a rune encrusted slab of unidentifiable metal with a big ole evil recurved dagger. Innocent people sacrificed on the slab during the full moon grant x amount of XP. After a month or two of implementation, the OP needs to find a way to deal with NPC Paladins and Clerics coming to get him. This would be a very fun evil dominant campaign.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

What's the earliest level you could manage something like this? CR 3 would probably be a reasonable step up after killing a fair no. of commoners.

Fell Drain is a +2 increase to spell level.

You can cast it as a 2nd level spell at level three or as a level 1 spell 3 times per day with Metamagic School Focus. Of course you then also need to be able to kill wights with near 100% accuracy in order to be "farming".



Also as for the better than vow of poverty, I seem to recall a class or two that "can't own more than they can carry." Wu-Jen maybe? Not sure if they're worth a thing at all.

Wu-Jen with that restriction aren't any less item dependent they just have to plan their purchases and take a small versatility hit, since they can't store things. Being a Full caster is of course a good start on not being item dependent. Since you're being super evil anyway you could use the sacrifice rules in BoVD for darkcraft gold then make your own items. You could also just do a quick search for "breaking wealth by level", "infinite gold loops3.5 D&D", "Breaking the ecomomy in D&D" and the like.

If you aren't stopped from farming XP, I don't see why you'd be stopped from generating extra gold.

[supersonic29]

This is certainly a topic in the realm of 'd&d the videogame' so I'm not worried about the DM interference while I'm also not exactly expecting to ever do this :smallwink:

So what class do you think would be preferable to execute 1st level fell drains, kill wights efficiently after a couple levels of commoner slaughter, and maybe do this sacrificial item creation?

[Hand_of_Vecna]

So what class do you think would be preferable to execute 1st level fell drains, kill wights efficiently after a couple levels of commoner slaughter, and maybe do this sacrificial item creation?

Probably just a wizard specialized in Evocation to avoid the spell focus requirment of Metamagic School Focus. No, just specialize in Conjuration and use Acid Splash. Sonic Snap is only better for killing things that are legitimate threats arena duals and whatnot.

Wait till level 3 to start on Wights so you can use Command Undead on the first few and have some effective bodyguards against Wights you're farming and and guards you fail to elude.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I'm pretty sure the DMG specifically states that going around murdering townsfolk won't grant any experience points since xp is only awarded for overcoming challenges, and simple townsfolk don't pose any credible threat to PCs.

[supersonic29]

I'm pretty sure the DMG specifically states that going around murdering townsfolk won't grant any experience points since xp is only awarded for overcoming challenges, and simple townsfolk don't pose any credible threat to PCs.

I never saw that, page citation? Not to say you'd lie to me, but if there's a hurdle to get over I'll need the wording :smallwink:

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I never saw that, page citation? Not to say you'd lie to me, but if there's a hurdle to get over I'll need the wording :smallwink:

I actually think it was in the 3.0 DMG, but the point still stands. There's absolutely no RAW support for Has CR = Gives XP, your DM will give you experience rewards for overcoming challenges. If he doesn't think your butchery of helpless townsfolk is sufficiently challenging that you would get experience for it, then there's absolutely no rule for you to point to and say that he has to give you xp anyway.

[supersonic29]

I actually think it was in the 3.0 DMG, but the point still stands. There's absolutely no RAW support for Has CR = Gives XP, your DM will give you experience rewards for overcoming challenges. If he doesn't think your butchery of helpless townsfolk is sufficiently challenging that you would get experience for it, then there's absolutely no rule for you to point to and say that he has to give you xp anyway.

I think that could be solved by what someone said earlier about arming the citizens with simple weapons to defend themselves, make it a "fair fight" as it were.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I think that could be solved by what someone said earlier about arming the citizens with simple weapons to defend themselves, make it a "fair fight" as it were.

Ser Gregor Clegane giving rusted weapons to puny commoners so he could cut them down does not constitute 'overcoming a challenge' any way you want to look at it. There is no RAW to support gaining XP for killing something with a CR, the experience rewards are guidelines for a DM to use, not a menu.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

There's absolutely no RAW support for Has CR = Gives XP, your DM will give you experience rewards for overcoming challenges. If he doesn't think your butchery of helpless townsfolk is sufficiently challenging that you would get experience for it, then there's absolutely no rule for you to point to and say that he has to give you xp anyway.

I'm well aware that things like this will get fiated away 99.9% of the time and told the OP so while answering his questions and they've acknowledged this in their subsequent replies. However, I've always considered getting XP for any combat according to the chart to be the default and reducing or eliminating awards to be a DM judgement Rule 0.5 situation.

[supersonic29]

I'm well aware that things like this will get fiated away 99.9% of the time and told the OP so while answering his questions and they've acknowledged this in their subsequent replies. However, I've always considered getting XP for any combat according to the chart to be the default and reducing or eliminating awards to be a DM judgement Rule 0.5 situation.

This. This wouldn't be this first thread to forge on with a thread of logic based on literal wordings despite knowing that any DM would stop it since its his job to be a mediator who is smarter than words which will always have loopholes, and who also has a vision for his campaign which probably doesn't involve excessive cheese. The point that this concept is BS is thoroughly acknowledged :smalltongue:

[gomipile]

You don't need to kill them, just defeat them. For that matter, a nonlethal fight club or arena combat should give xp if the fights are challenging, as well. Arena with spectators potentially solves the WBL problem too, if the fights get a cut based on how spectacular the fights are. "Spectacular" in this case being code for the options that come with increased ECL/CR of the fighters.

[ace rooster]

I like the arena type idea, and it also levels up the commoners to become warriors, so that they get a CR boost. You can use this system to get hundreds of warrior minions and training buddies!

Yeah, I'm pretty sure you just set up a fighter training school, and the leveling rules don't work exactly like that. The DM is supposed to adjust xp gains for circumstance, and a safety net to prevent combat from being lethal is hugely mitigating circumstance. The fact that the combats are utterly meaningless probably has some bearing as well, and the fact that you will probably soon get a paladin after you who is CR appropriate and actually wants you very dead will rapidly eclipse the xp gain you get from the commoners... if you survive.

[Renen]

And I came here hoping its a nipple clamps of exquisite pain thread

[toapat]

I had someone bring up the fact that commoners actually have a challenge rating in another thread, which got me thinking.

Woo, i spawned another thread!


Well, the obvious thing would be to start a cult or take over a village or what have you.

You receive XP for non-lethal take-downs. Start a wrestling tournament or whatever and have the commoners wrestle one another and the like, repeatedly. Use your favored method of determining level in-game to see if the commoners are capable of leveling up, checking periodically.

also hey, stop being mean to the adept. That is a PC class, unlike monk and fighter


Assuming that anything resembling an "XP farm" isn't DM fiated away,

XP farm flaw: Commoners are worth 10 times normal XP for their CR.

[Darrin]

And I came here hoping its a nipple clamps of exquisite pain thread

I am a bit boggled at how you could create an Commoner XP farm and not even mention the "XP Farm" flaw from Dragon #330.

[Renen]

Well, the clamps dont care about the xp worth. This is just for making ambrosia :-)

[supersonic29]

XP farm flaw: Commoners are worth 10 times normal XP for their CR.


I am a bit boggled at how you could create an Commoner XP farm and not even mention the "XP Farm" flaw from Dragon #330.

I knew about that flaw, but decided the issue was not having control over these commoners flaws they may or may not have 'taken' when they got their first level of commoner.

[toapat]

I knew about that flaw, but decided the issue was not having control over these commoners flaws they may or may not have 'taken' when they got their first level of commoner.

they are commoners, its literally impossible for them not to have 2 of: XP Farm, Unimportant NPC, Incomprehensible Accent, Dirt Farmer, or Stupid hat. Only the truly lucky have Chicken Infested, Pigbond, or Weresheep.