No save No immunity, you just die

[With a box]

it is completly broken, but is there a way to get somthing do that?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Irresistible Spell from the Kingdoms of Kalamar Player's Guide, which is 3rd party but has the official D&D logo on the cover, removes the saving throw from a spell. There are reports that it was errated/updated to only add a huge bonus to the DC instead of making it so the targets don't get a saving throw, but it's not mentioned in the official 3.5 update (http://www.kenzerco.com/Orpg/kalamar/KPG5_feats.pdf) or the official errata (http://www.kenzerco.com/errata/KoKPG.pdf).

Implosion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/implosion.htm) has no subtypes or descriptors, it's not a death effect or a transmutation effect or mind-affecting or anything of the sort, and nothing is outright immune to evocations. It doesn't affect incorporeal creatures or creatures in gaseous form, and it allows SR so magic immunity would work. You can get Divine Metamagic for Irresistible Spell and use it with that and automatically kill four creatures, though. Otherwise I'd probably use Destruction (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/destruction.htm) with a Greater Metamagic Rod of Chain Spell from Complete Arcane if your opponents aren't immune to death effects.

Irresistible Spell is just so good for so much more than automatically killing one creature per caster level with a single spell, though. Use it with Command Undead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/commandUndead.htm) to automatically take control of the uber-powerful Demilich (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/demilich.htm) BBEG, or even Vecna himself....

[ZamielVanWeber]

With that smexy DnD logo is technically isn't 3rd party. KoK kinda sits is a magical land all its own. The errata appears only in the very NOT official 3.5 update book, Player's Guide to the Sovereign Lands.

Arboreal Transformation is a save vs being turned into a treant that is under the caster's control for a long time. On a successful save you are instead slowed for a (somewhat debated) amount of time (minumum caster level rounds). It can one shot bosses.

[Piggy Knowles]

Irresistible Spell was updated in a later KoK book to give +10 to the save DC instead... but that book does NOT bear the official 3.5 logo, so the only official 3.5 version of the feat is the uber-broken version.

EDIT: Blasted swordsages.

[ZamielVanWeber]

I believe that was my first swordsage. Much excite. I am trying to see if anyone can give a definitive answer of Arboreal Transformation, but seriously it and Giant Size are enough of a reason for me to play Wu Jen, because they are so cool... (my DM get's mad when I cast Gian Size and then use the Wingstorm feat).

[Giddonihah]

The Lady of Pain has that ability. So I suppose you just need a way to summon her to use it yourself. Course trying would get you killed as well.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The Lady of Pain has that ability. So I suppose you just need a way to summon her to use it yourself. Course trying would get you killed as well.

The Lady of Pain is mentioned in the Planar Handbook, she doesn't have any stats, and really there are no actual rules or game mechanics to govern her capabilities, limitations, or vulnerabilities. She's 100% a plot tool, and if you're going to venture into that realm then you can just research a spell make rocks fall.

[Psyren]

With that smexy DnD logo is technically isn't 3rd party.

Actually, the publisher is what makes it 3rd party. KoKPG was published, not by WotC, but by "Kenzer and Company." The logo simply means they are using the D&D license.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Wouldn't that leave all Dragon content less official than KoK (the three books anyways) content anyways? Or as official, I have none around me to check to see if it has the symbol.

Back on topic: aside from a few select spells, very little just "wins" encounters intrinsically. Most of it involves grabbing a second book, or sometimes a third, and using THAT to win the encounter (see Shapechange and Gate). They did pay some sort of lip service to balance, particularly once splat books came out (although doozies did show up from time to time).

[the_david]

Sphere of Annihillation?

[ZamielVanWeber]

Is an artifact. Its counterpart spell is much less impressive.

[Anlashok]

Find a way to cart around and throw Pandorym's prison at your enemies.

It does allow for a save, but succeeding against the saving throw still kills you.

[With a box]

Find a way to cart around and throw Pandorym's prison at your enemies.

It does allow for a save, but succeeding against the saving throw still kills you.

what is it? google doesn't show me about that.:smallconfused:

[Anlashok]

what is it? google doesn't show me about that.:smallconfused:

A crystalline prison housing a powerful outsider that will destroy everything (everything everything) if he's set free.

Touching the prison forces a save, succeeding disintegrates you and failing wipes you from existence entirely.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Actually, the publisher is what makes it 3rd party. KoKPG was published, not by WotC, but by "Kenzer and Company." The logo simply means they are using the D&D license.

The D&D logo means it's valid for any D&D game, unlike books that have only the d20 logo such as anything to do with Dragonlance. It doesn't matter if it's 1st party or 3rd party, it's D&D.

[Svata]

Is an artifact. Its counterpart spell is much less impressive.

Good against undead, non-golem constructs and for excavation, though.

[Steward]

what is it? google doesn't show me about that.:smallconfused:

If you want to know what book Pandorym is in, it's "Elder Evils".

[bekeleven]

Most spells have multiple fail states (attack roll, save, SR, descriptor).

It's possible to get a single fail state-or-lose pretty easily (SR or lose, save or lose, touch attack or lose).

None is way trickier.

[Sith_Happens]

Find a way to cart around and throw Pandorym's prison at your enemies.

It does allow for a save, but succeeding against the saving throw still kills you.

Similarly, the concoction that Yuan-Ti use to turn people into Tainted Ones and Broodguards immediately puts a human imbiber into a coma on a successful DC 16 Fortitude save and kills them an hour later, while a failed save results in a successful transformation over the course of some number of days (though nothing indicates that they're actually debilitated in any way in the meantime).

[Jack_Simth]

Find a way to cart around and throw Pandorym's prison at your enemies.

It does allow for a save, but succeeding against the saving throw still kills you.

I'm having a little trouble tracking down specifics, but no matter:
1) Get Mettle.
2) Get enough saves so that you're only worried about a natural-1.
3) Get around natural-1's (Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords can do it via Diamond Mind manuevers, there's the Steadfast Determination Feat, and probably a few others)
4) ????
5) Profit

[Gemini476]

I'm having a little trouble tracking down specifics, but no matter:
1) Get Mettle.
2) Get enough saves so that you're only worried about a natural-1.
3) Get around natural-1's (Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords can do it via Diamond Mind manuevers, there's the Steadfast Determination Feat, and probably a few others)
4) ????
5) Profit


The “crystal” is actually a modified, solidified form of permanent prismatic wall (PH 264), six layers deep (it does not include the violet layer). The normal magical counters to the layers’ effects don’t function. Any creature that touches the crystal (even if wearing a glove or other protective clothing) is subject to the effect of one color layer per round, in consecutive order, for 6 rounds of contact. A creature still in contact with the crystal for a seventh round is drawn into the prison and blotted from existence; on a successful DC 45 Will save, it is instead disintegrated as the spell (no saving throw). A creature drawn into the prison cannot be restored by any means as long as the crystal remains intact, since it no longer truly exists in this reality. If the crystal is shattered (which releases Pandorym’s mind), a creature destroyed by entering it can be returned to life with a true resurrection, wish, or miracle spell.

I guess that might work.

[Jack_Simth]

I guess that might work.

Oh. That makes it a lot less useful as a weapon - you need to keep them in contact with the thing for seven rounds.

[Eldariel]

Blasphemy-spells combined with massive caster level buffing and the level 11 Factotum ability "Cunning Breach" to ignore Spell Resistance is a pretty good combination. Alignment is a defense but given there's one for each alignment, casting all 4 would be guaranteed to work in that regard (more specific defenses exist though, of course). Of course, you probably want to shape them so they don't hit yourself.

[Chronos]

That's where you need Improved Mettle.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Blasphemy-spells combined with massive caster level buffing and the level 11 Factotum ability "Cunning Breach" to ignore Spell Resistance is a pretty good combination. Alignment is a defense but given there's one for each alignment, casting all 4 would be guaranteed to work in that regard (more specific defenses exist though, of course). Of course, you probably want to shape them so they don't hit yourself.

Horizon Walker (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/horizonWalker.htm) 6+, Aligned planar terrain mastery: "...spells and abilities that harm those of the opposite alignment don’t affect you."

[gooddragon1]

If you follow a ... flexible ... interpretation of RAW, no save. I've seen one thing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/dragonEpic.htm#forceDragon) with immunity, though technically golems qualify too because of SR...

Explosive Runes cast 9001 times on 9001 stamps attached to something which you have within "reading distance" of the target.
Dispel magic cast at your lowest possible level (5th) while your actual caster level is 16 for explosive runes and the feat to take 10 on a dispel check (I think there is one).

Target receives no save and barring amazing spell resistance that you could not beat on a 20 you are likely looking at more damage than they have in HP. Almost all of that is in core, and if you do it right they'll never see it coming (as in no initiative). If you maximize it then no damage rolls. All they get is SR probably (evasion can help, but against NI explosive runes if they fail even 1% of their saves it's lights out).

[Eldariel]

Horizon Walker (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/horizonWalker.htm) 6+, Aligned planar terrain mastery: "...spells and abilities that harm those of the opposite alignment don’t affect you."

There are also certain spell immunities, epic wards and few other things. Still, it's a good start.

[Chronos]

The simplest form of immunity to the Word spells is the second-level Silence spell, since they're all [sonic]. Alternately, Word of Chaos and Holy Word both only effect creatures that hear them, though this wording is oddly left out of Blasphemy and Dictum. So a deaf Lawful Evil creature is immune to all four.

[dextercorvia]

Arcane Fusion for Rapid Hail of Stone and a Rapid Sanctum Arcane Fusion containing a Hail of Stone and a Rapid Sanctum Arcane Fusion containing a...

It get's expensive with all that Jade, though. (You need Arcane Thesis Hail of Stone and Arcane Fusion to get the cost of Rapid Spell to 0).

[Anthrowhale]

The Stutter Caster can strip all the standard spell defenses. In short:

(a) Supernatural Spell strips spell resistance.
(b) Surge of Fortune defeats AC.
(c) A combination of Twin Spell, [Limited] Wish and [Greater] Arcane Fusion can brute force a failed save.

This leaves immunities of which there are many in general---defeating all immunities can become quite difficult.

[Forrestfire]

This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=16390771&postcount=180) is my favorite way to completely and utterly eliminate something, I think. Doesn't kill them, though, so it could be an issue.

[Eldariel]

This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=16390771&postcount=180) is my favorite way to completely and utterly eliminate something, I think. Doesn't kill them, though, so it could be an issue.

Such an approach is far superior to killing. Someone killed will probably be revived next day if he was anyone important. It's far more efficient to disable them forever, be it quintessence, planar trait or whatever.

[Darrin]

I just did this with one of my recent Iron Chef entries:

Onnedad Kairdwen (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17753375&postcount=323).

Use Spellsword's Channel to cast personal spells on a creature... such as Wu Jen's transcend mortality. If you have Multiple Channel, you can add dispel magic as the 2nd spell. Your dispels automatically succeed on spells you cast, so transcend mortality immediately ends and they die.

If you want them to flail around a bit while you gloat, make the second spell lesser celerity so they get a single glorious move action... and then they are dazed on their next turn. When your turn comes up again, dismiss the transcend mortality as a standard action.

Or just turn them into a fish or a tree.

[Chronos]

If I'm not mistaken, the same trick can be pulled by a Spellguard of Silverymoon, since Transcend Mortality meets the criteria to be considered a "defensive spell". Either way, though, you need a way to guarantee making the attack. True Strike to bypass miss chance, combined with that spell you can discharge to get a natural 20, maybe?

[Eldariel]

If I'm not mistaken, the same trick can be pulled by a Spellguard of Silverymoon, since Transcend Mortality meets the criteria to be considered a "defensive spell". Either way, though, you need a way to guarantee making the attack. True Strike to bypass miss chance, combined with that spell you can discharge to get a natural 20, maybe?

Surge of Fortune enables autohits, yes.

[dextercorvia]

The Stutter Caster can strip all the standard spell defenses. In short:

(a) Supernatural Spell strips spell resistance.
(b) Surge of Fortune defeats AC.
(c) A combination of Twin Spell, [Limited] Wish and [Greater] Arcane Fusion can brute force a failed save.

This leaves immunities of which there are many in general---defeating all immunities can become quite difficult.

I like the way this turned out. The bit about domain slots is my favorite. Nice work.

[Inevitability]

A Living Spell Painless Death could arguably do it. It'd still have to hit people or engulf them, though.

[Chronos]

Of course, the other problem with offensive Transcend Mortality is that it only kills the victim and destroys their body. By the time the trick comes online, enemies at a comparable optimization level are likely to be able to just shrug that off and be back in the action at full strength in the next round.

[ahenobarbi]

A Living Spell Painless Death could arguably do it. It'd still have to hit people or engulf them, though.

No save, no immunity (?), fits request ;)

Another one would be doing absurd amounts of damage (yeah, not everything can be killed with damage but it'll work for those target that can be killed by it). For example d2 crusader (infinite damage with a attack) + Limited Wish (hit with next attack).

[Anthrowhale]

I like the way this turned out. The bit about domain slots is my favorite. Nice work.

Thanks. I was evolving your twin bomb attack strategy against the LeShay slayer and then realized it also worked as a fail-fisher...

[Graypairofsocks]

Is an artifact. Its counterpart spell is much less impressive.

I think in an old version of the Force domain there was a spell that summoned an actual sphere of annihilation.

I don't know were it was though(it may have been in Dragon magazine).

[Dalebert]

it is completly broken, but is there a way to get somthing do that?

Crimony, I hope not, but I have a sinking feeling that you folks will find a way. You have the makings of super-villains. I've only skimmed the thread and frankly, I'm afraid to look any closer.

[daemonvatis]

Hellfire only kills you if you can't take the damage, but it is designed to be an in-setting new magic type that has no save or resistance. Two of our party members got tongue studs of hellbreath, which, if I remember correctly, is a 60ft line of hellfire, guarantee hit, no save, 3 times per day.

[dextercorvia]

Damage is the best way. There is no statted Immunity to Damage (that I have seen), and all defacto damage immunity relies on Regeneration, which Vile damage bypasses. So, Mailman with a vile twist should do this. There are a few things that allow you to operate in negative hp (Persistent Delay Death -- I'm looking at you) but this should work on any statted monster in the game..

[Raven777]

Irresistible Spell is just so good for so much more than automatically killing one creature per caster level with a single spell, though. Use it with Command Undead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/commandUndead.htm) to automatically take control of the uber-powerful Demilich (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/demilich.htm) BBEG, or even Vecna himself....

I'm pretty sure a Demilich BBEG or Vecna would have items to make themselves outright immune to mental interference, the way good ol' Protection From Alignment does. That would supersede the absence of saving throw. Heck, my character's a measly 6th level Sorcerer and she has one ([Pathfinder] Wayfinder + Clear Spindle combo).

[Chronos]

Vile damage doesn't bypass anything; it's just slightly harder to heal.

[dextercorvia]

Vile damage doesn't bypass anything; it's just slightly harder to heal.

Vile damage can not be regenerated. It might still get converted to non-lethal though.

[bekeleven]

...Hide Life?

[Anthrowhale]

Vile damage can not be regenerated. It might still get converted to non-lethal though.

As far as I understand, the only effect of vile damage is interfering with healing. So, regeneration converts vile damage into vile nonlethal damage as normal, and then the normal nonlethal recovery mechanics of regeneration fail due to not passing the vile healing test.

This doesn't break immunity to damage builds based on regeneration + immunity to nonlethal since damage is never incurred. It will permanently drop (but possibly not kill) every official thing as Dex says.

[Esprit15]

A Living Spell Painless Death could arguably do it. It'd still have to hit people or engulf them, though.

Are we ignoring the fact that the target has to be willing? It's pretty much assisted suicide, not "Hahaha, killed you instantly!"

[Psyren]

Are we ignoring the fact that the target has to be willing? It's pretty much assisted suicide, not "Hahaha, killed you instantly!"

The typical response to this barrier is to knock them out, because unconscious creatures are considered willing.

No doubt this phrase was allowed so that the DM could have the city guard teleport the PCs to jail after pummeling them senseless, but it has all kinds of other rules consequences.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

No one yet has mentioned the Mailman?

In brief, Sorcerer that abuses Spell Matrix and metamagic reduction to get NI spells per turn, and use Orb of Fire with Searing Spell to bypass immunities. No save, no sr, arbitrary damage on a ranged touch attack. Then just True Strike and done.

Failing that, do something similar with Hail of Stones. No save, no SR, no attack roll, just take an arbitrary number of d4's. Then you can tack on Fell Drain if you like to also deal negative levels in addition to damage, if you want to be cruel.

[dextercorvia]

Arcane Fusion for Rapid Hail of Stone and a Rapid Sanctum Arcane Fusion containing a Hail of Stone and a Rapid Sanctum Arcane Fusion containing a...

It get's expensive with all that Jade, though. (You need Arcane Thesis Hail of Stone and Arcane Fusion to get the cost of Rapid Spell to 0).


Damage is the best way. There is no statted Immunity to Damage (that I have seen), and all defacto damage immunity relies on Regeneration, which Vile damage bypasses. So, Mailman with a vile twist should do this. There are a few things that allow you to operate in negative hp (Persistent Delay Death -- I'm looking at you) but this should work on any statted monster in the game..


No one yet has mentioned the Mailman?

In brief, Sorcerer that abuses Spell Matrix and metamagic reduction to get NI spells per turn, and use Orb of Fire with Searing Spell to bypass immunities. No save, no sr, arbitrary damage on a ranged touch attack. Then just True Strike and done.

Failing that, do something similar with Hail of Stones. No save, no SR, no attack roll, just take an arbitrary number of d4's. Then you can tack on Fell Drain if you like to also deal negative levels in addition to damage, if you want to be cruel.

I must say, I like the way you think.

@Anthro, yeah, I misremembered why Vile was bad for regeneration. It is still a fun way to incapacitate something.

[Forrestfire]

Does nothing to a character with Beastlands Ferocity + Delay Death. This hypothetical character probably also has several selective spell Anti-Magic Fields up, and other disjunction defenses (assuming we're trying to find a kill method that has no counter). Iron Heart Surging the AMFs works, but requires you find a way to deal with foresight + tactical teleportation...

[Mithril Leaf]

As far as I understand, the only effect of vile damage is interfering with healing. So, regeneration converts vile damage into vile nonlethal damage as normal, and then the normal nonlethal recovery mechanics of regeneration fail due to not passing the vile healing test.

This doesn't break immunity to damage builds based on regeneration + immunity to nonlethal since damage is never incurred. It will permanently drop (but possibly not kill) every official thing as Dex says.

Hostile Empathic Transfer can bypass regeneration, but is easily blocked by immunity to mind affecting.

[dextercorvia]

The lowest level I can do it is 15.

Human Wizard1/Cleric of Mystra3/DreadWitch4/Dweomerkeeper6

Domains include Illusion and Magic.

Feats
H: Envelop the Wall (Prereq)
1: Precocious Apprentice (Scare)
3: Maximize Spell (Prereq)
6: Initiate of Mystra
9: Irresistible Spell
12: Easy Metamagic (Irresistible Spell)

You cast Irresistible Phantasmal Killer from a 7th level slot as a Supernatural Spell (No save and no SR). Because of Dread Witch's Greater Master of Terror ability, your spell affects anything normally immune to fear, which include everything that is normally immune to Mind-affecting. It is not a Death effect. Magic Immunity is unbeatable SR, which this is not subject to. And, you can cast it in an AMF due to Initiate of Mystra.

[Inevitability]

Are we ignoring the fact that the target has to be willing? It's pretty much assisted suicide, not "Hahaha, killed you instantly!"

Yes, but according to the spell rules are those hit by the Living Spell's slam attack 'subjected to the normal effect of the spell or spells making up the creature, as if it were within the area or effect of the spell itself.'

This could be interpreted as bypassing the 'willling' restriction.

[Anthrowhale]

Greater Master of Terror has an exception for things with 4 more HD than your caster level (i.e. many things, including many nonepic things).

Using Irresistible Spell, without errata seems like a hope rather than a method. I expect nearly every DM that allows Irresistible spell will use the errata.

The errata for Arcane Fusion states a dependence on spell level:



If applying a metamagic feat to a spell, use the adjusted spell level and casting time for purposes of determining eligibility for Arcane Fusion.


By RAW, you can apply every metamagic except Heighten spell and Sanctum spell, as no other metamagics adjust spell level. Heighten spell would limit the set of spells you can cast. Sanctum Spell outside of your Sanctum decreases the cast spells level, but not the prepared spell level. The distinction between cast spell level and prepared spell level is real---Is Rary's Arcane Conversion and Sanctum spell really supposed to give access to infinite level spells? So, to use a Sanctum Arcane Fusion loop, you must believe that:

any metamagic except Heighten and Sanctum can be freely applied to Arcane Fusion spells.
eligibility is dependent on cast spell level rather than prepared spell level.

Both of these seem implausible in any real campaign to me, so I consider the reasonable interpretation to be errata which say 'adjusted spell slot level' instead.

Finally, consider the following build:

Human Gheden Wizard 5/Incantatrix 3/Wyrm Wizard 2/Incantatrix 7/Wyrm Wizard 2/Lore Master 1

With feats:
human: Troll-Blooded
Gheden: Toughness
Gheden: Endurance
Gheden: Die-hard
1: Violate[Hail of Stone]
Otyugh Hole: Iron Will
3: Reserves of Strength
Frog God's Fane: Skill Focus(Knowlege(religion))
Wizard 5: Empower Spell
6: Arcane Thesis[Hail of Stone]
Incantatrix 1: Twin Spell
9: Easy Twin
Incantatrix 4: Wounding Spell
12: Arcane Thesis [Arcane Fusion]
Incantatrix 7: Transdimensional Spell
15: Arcane Thesis[Limited Wish]
Incantatrix 10: Enervate Spell
18: Arcane Thesis[Wish]
Lore Master: Arcane Thesis[Greater Arcane Fusion]

The seed is Violate Enervate Empower Wounding Transdimensional Hail of Stone which does an expected 45 damage to living and 15 damage to nonliving and then causes 1 hp/round of loss. I assume conservatively here that reserves of strength only increases to spell cap by +3, so that's 8d4*1.5*1.5 damage. Note that Gheden + Troll-blooded makes the caster immune to stun and damage from RoS.

Easy Twin Wish [ Easy Twin Greater Arcane Fusion [Easy Twin Limited Wish [ Easy Twin Arcane Fusion[Easy Twin Seed , Easy Twin Seed] ] , Easy Twin Seed] ]

That is 72 applications of the seed doing an expected 3240 damage (half Vile) + 72 wounding/round or 1620(half vile) + 72 wounding/round.

That knocks down everything in existing books with one exception: The {Stone, Flesh, Iron} Colossus is immune due to a 100' antimagic field.

The Colossus have weak hp, touch AC 0, and no regeneration, so let Seed2 be Orb of Force doing 45.5 damage with RoS, and use

Easy Twin Wish [ Easy Twin Greater Arcane Fusion [Easy Twin Limited Wish [ Easy Twin Arcane Fusion[Seed2 , ??] ] , Seed2] ]

That is 24 Seed2 doing 1092 damage.

[dextercorvia]

Greater Master of Terror has an exception for things with 4 more HD than your caster level (i.e. many things, including many nonepic things).

Using Irresistible Spell, without errata seems like a hope rather than a method. I expect nearly every DM that allows Irresistible spell will use the errata.

So, we have to use Circle Magic. If the errata is not official dnd material, I don't see how it applies in a RAW discussion.

[Anthrowhale]

So, we have to use Circle Magic.

That seems to handle everything pre-epic.


If the errata is not official dnd material, I don't see how it applies in a RAW discussion.

Agreed, but OP did not specify RAW only.

[Zeb]

...
With feats:
human: Troll-Blooded
1: Violate[Hail of Stone]
Otyugh Hole: Iron Will
3: Reserves of Strength
Frog God's Fane: Skill Focus(Knowlege(religion))
Wizard 5: Empower Spell
6: Arcane Thesis[Hail of Stone]
Incantatrix 1: Twin Spell
9: Easy Twin
Incantatrix 4: Wounding Spell
12: Arcane Thesis [Arcane Fusion]
Incantatrix 7: Transdimensional Spell
15: Arcane Thesis[Limited Wish]
Incantatrix 10: Enervate Spell
18: Arcane Thesis[Wish]
Lore Master: Arcane Thesis[Greater Arcane Fusion]
...

Don't you need toughness to take troll blooded?

[Gemini476]

Agreed, but OP did not specify RAW only.
Oh, that makes it easy. Rocks fall, everyone dies, no Jim you can't save/dodge/contingency/phase through/tough out through sheer meatpoints/survive using a spell. No, not even that. You just die. (Well then, my contingent Revivify -) You come back to life underneath multiple tons of rock and die again.

[malonkey1]

Honestly, I would see about optimizing force damage. Very few creatures if any can resist force damage, and the force damage spells rarely have saves to them. I have seen some very impressive Magic Missile builds.

[Gemini476]

Honestly, I would see about optimizing force damage. Very few creatures if any can resist force damage, and the force damage spells rarely have saves to them. I have seen some very impressive Magic Missile builds.

Damage in general has issues with being stopped by things like Delay Death or Regeneration+Immunity to Non-lethal.
But yeah, the number of creatures out there that are immune/resistant to force damage out there can be counted on one hand. (One of them, the Atropal, is also the only published creature I know of that actually has regeneration+immunity to nonlethal. So that's a thing.)

The easiest thing to do with Magic Missile is just to layer it in Sanctum Arcane Fusions. But then you need to find a way to get around Shield...

[Anthrowhale]

Don't you need toughness to take troll blooded?

Provided by Gheden.

[KingAtomsk]

it is completly broken, but is there a way to get somthing do that?

A Shadowcraft Mage (http://dndtools.eu/classes/shadowcraft-mage/) using Heighten Magic/Earth Spell and Shadowcrafter (http://dndtools.eu/classes/shadowcrafter/) + the Enhanced Shadow Reality (http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/featbox.pl?feat=Enhanced_Shadow_Reality) feat could Shadow Evoke Implosion (http://dndtools.eu/spells/players-handbook-v35--6/implosion--2626/) to kill anything even if it succeeded on the Will save for disbelief. As an added bonus, Implosion isn't a death or necromantic effect, so it gets around most of the annoying immunities.

[dextercorvia]

A Shadowcraft Mage (http://dndtools.eu/classes/shadowcraft-mage/) using Heighten Magic/Earth Spell and Shadowcrafter (http://dndtools.eu/classes/shadowcrafter/) + the Enhanced Shadow Reality (http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/featbox.pl?feat=Enhanced_Shadow_Reality) feat could Shadow Evoke Implosion (http://dndtools.eu/spells/players-handbook-v35--6/implosion--2626/) to kill anything even if it succeeded on the Will save for disbelief. As an added bonus, Implosion isn't a death or necromantic effect, so it gets around most of the annoying immunities.

Still allows SR and a Fort save.

[Sith_Happens]

Is there any way to bypass immunity to death effects? If so, get that, cheese your way into having the Life and Death SDA, and go to town.

[Jack_Simth]

Let's see... if the non-errata'd version of Irresistable spell is in play...

First, from the Metamagic Feat General Description (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#metamagicFeats): "In all ways, a metamagic spell operates at its original spell level, even though it is prepared and cast as a higher-level spell. Saving throw modifications are not changed unless stated otherwise in the feat description."
Next, we have Limited Wish (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/limitedWish.htm) and the clause "Duplicate any sorcerer/wizard spell of 6th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you." -
Note for reference that Limited Wish has it's own school and subschool line, so it doesn't inherit little things like descriptors.
Note also that as a metamagic spell operates at it's original spell level, adding metamagic (other than Heighten) to a spell you duplicate via Limited Wish is free.
We then pick up Supernatural Transformation from Dweomerkeeper.

So we use Dweomerkeeper to Supernatural Spell a Limited Wish to duplicate an Irresistable Spell Phantasmal Killer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/phantasmalKiller.htm). No SR (it's Supernatural), no save (it's Irresistable), and it no longer has any of the descriptors that would permit someone to be immune.

Oh yes, and as an added bonus, Dweomerkeeper's Supernatural Spell disposes of the XP component.

[Melcar]

Irresistible Spell was updated in a later KoK book to give +10 to the save DC instead... but that book does NOT bear the official 3.5 logo, so the only official 3.5 version of the feat is the uber-broken version.

EDIT: Blasted swordsages.

This feat could surely be abused to basically win the game. But just a question... Is this really official WotC D&D material?

[Jack_Simth]

This feat could surely be abused to basically win the game. But just a question... Is this really official WotC D&D material?
Irresistible Spell is in a very strange place with respect to the rules. It's not WotC, but it's an official licensed product.

[Melcar]

Irresistible Spell is in a very strange place with respect to the rules. It's not WotC, but it's an official licensed product.

Ok... yeah that is a strange place. Would anyone here allow it???

[With a box]

Ok... yeah that is a strange place. Would anyone here allow it???

I don't think anyone who know it allow it even if it is in PHB1

[ILM]

Still allows SR and a Fort save.
Implosion isn't a sorc/wiz spell so by RAW you can't emulate it, unless you go for spell list expansion shenanigans and have a cooperative DM.

[Jack_Simth]

Implosion isn't a sorc/wiz spell so by RAW you can't emulate it, unless you go for spell list expansion shenanigans and have a cooperative DM.
It's on the Destruction domain, so Arcane Disciple will do it, no problem. Does taking one feat, and using it in the way it seems intended, count as shenanigans?

[ILM]

It's on the Destruction domain, so Arcane Disciple will do it, no problem. Does taking one feat, and using it in the way it seems intended, count as shenanigans?
Depends.

A shadowcraft mage can use the altered spell to mimic any sorcerer or wizard conjuration (summoning), conjuration (creation), or evocation spell at least one level lower than the illusion spell.

Add the chosen domain's spells to your class list of arcane spells.
Does adding a spell to your class list make it a sorc/wiz spell? If anothermage has AD: Destruction, does Implosion become a sorc/wiz spell for everyone just because it's been added to the sorc/wiz class spell list as per AC RAW?

Eh. I remember a multi-page debate about this and I'm not going to start it again. I know my position on the topic; Shadowcraft Mage is powerful enough as is, and allowing AD spell list expansion opens up a can of worms of which Implosion is the least problematic (are free Miracles all day long also "intended"?).

[With a box]

Depends.


Does adding a spell to your class list make it a sorc/wiz spell? If anothermage has AD: Destruction, does Implosion become a sorc/wiz spell for everyone just because it's been added to the sorc/wiz class spell list as per AC RAW?

Eh. I remember a multi-page debate about this and I'm not going to start it again. I know my position on the topic; Shadowcraft Mage is powerful enough as is, and allowing AD spell list expansion opens up a can of worms of which Implosion is the least problematic (are free Miracles all day long also "intended"?).

If a wizard learn a spell then it will be on his spellbook, and then another wizard can copy it to his spellbook with spellcraft cheak

Well it is same problem that if a wiz invented a homebrew spell, is it on s/w spell list?

[Chronos]

Wizards can copy all sorts of things into their spellbook, but that doesn't mean they can prepare or cast them. The spell needs to be on your class spell list to prepare or cast it.