PCs hold crushing power?

[Kafana]

So, I've been thinking a bit about the power the PC classes have. Since I'm currently playing a dread necromancer who will soon reach level 8 and who has 2 rebuked shadows at his disposal, I realized I could quite easily wipe out a village and turn it into a land of the dead.

Just go out in the dead of night to the poor district and have dozens of shadows running around in a matter of minutes. I might not controll them, but their "instinct" would drive them to consume the whole village before the night is over.

If we take into account wizards, druids and the like it of course gets even worse. I also realize that such acts would call angels and what not to intervine, but still, the damage is done. You can cripple a whole region of a kingdom before anybody knows what's going on. The village cleric can't fight off more than a few shadows.

That being said, what's to stop a bored PC from doing this one day? It doesn't have to be that the player is bored, just that he wants to play his character as if he snapped and killed a bunch of people.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Actually, they would be controlled by the shadows you control, so you actually would be able to give them orders. Any new shadows that those create will be controlled by the generation that's controlled by the ones you control, so you would have control over them as well.

[Kafana]

Actually, they would be controlled by the shadows you control, so you actually would be able to give them orders. Any new shadows that those create will be controlled by the generation that's controlled by the ones you control, so you would have control over them as well.

So basically a level 6 Dread Necromancer that has the fortune of encoutnering 1 shadow is pretty much given a nuclear bomb that has infinite charges :D

[Svata]

Yep. The shadowpocalypse is a well-known thing, though it is usually done with wights. Shadows are better, because incoporeality.

[Owl Prowler]

Either hope that your PCs don't take advantage of the god-like power that higher level spellcasting gives them, or make the rest of the world high level as well.

[Steward]

There isn't really much in game that restrains the "crushing power" of PCs. Apart from the Shadowpocalypse, there are a hundred or more ways that an ordinary PCs can use (or abuse) ordinary mechanic to wipe out civilizations, crash economies, etc.

Honestly, the main limitation is an understanding (implicit or explicit) between the DM or players, or else the DM taking unilateral action to head stuff like this off (ie the gods will annihilate the shadows before the infestation reaches critical mass, or alert other adventurers to do it for them, etc.)

[Red Fel]

That being said, what's to stop a bored PC from doing this one day? It doesn't have to be that the player is bored, just that he wants to play his character as if he snapped and killed a bunch of people.


There isn't really much in game that restrains the "crushing power" of PCs. Apart from the Shadowpocalypse, there are a hundred or more ways that an ordinary PCs can use (or abuse) ordinary mechanic to wipe out civilizations, crash economies, etc.

Honestly, the main limitation is an understanding (implicit or explicit) between the DM or players, or else the DM taking unilateral action to head stuff like this off (ie the gods will annihilate the shadows before the infestation reaches critical mass, or alert other adventurers to do it for them, etc.)

Pretty much this.

If you're feeling particularly epic, you could frame it this way: Some people are possessed of great and terrible power. Heroes are those who choose not to wield it tyrannically.

If you're feeling more cynical, you could frame it this way: Look, guys, if you just try to not destroy the world out of boredom, I'll do what I can to avoid you becoming bored. Deal?

The PCs, almost by definition, are uniquely capable of destructive acts. That they generally abstain from them can either be attributed to (1) a lack of creativity, (2) having more important things to do, or (3) profound moral fiber. (For your average murderhobo, moral fiber is a part of your diet after you've eaten one too many Clerics.) But as a rule, the players will (or should) abstain from committing heinous acts of destruction (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?361628-Collateral-Damage-Man) just as a courtesy to one another and to the DM. Ending the world tends to cut a campaign short, after all.

[Flickerdart]

You could probably do in a few towns before you found one with a retired archmage and he redecorated your brain from the inside. Power isn't PC-exclusive - the PCs are usually stronger than your average peasant, but there are other big fish out there.

[Zombulian]

Yeah unfortunately my players regularly realize the amount of power they have and I basically have to DM fiat to make sure that they don't do the same thing every time we play. If I didn't just tell them "no." then they would probably murder every village they came across and build an undead army.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

A first level Dragonfire Adept with two flaws can create a cloud of fire with his breath attack, that lasts an effectively infinite number of rounds, grows every round that it exists eventually covering the entire prime material plane, and deals at least one fire damage per round to any creatures or objects in it, plus it risks setting anything flammable on fire. As a supernatural ability it cannot be dispelled, but luckily all it takes is a Warblade stepping into it and initiating Iron Heart Surge to put a stop to it. Note that the number of rounds that the cloud lasts is the same number of rounds he has to wait to use his breath attack again, so you'll be stuck with a DFA who's no longer able to use his breath attack ever again. Only use this if your DM arbitrarily bans ToB.

[Red Fel]

In retrospect, it occurs to me that this actually happened in a Dragonlance campaign in which I participated a long time ago. One of our party members (and our primary mode of transportation, despite the DM giving us a magical submarine) was a Black Robe Wizard specializing in necromancy. During down time, she would hop off at random to various isolated towns and islands, slaughter everyone there, reanimate the corpses, and choose the best ones to take with her. She would then come back, her new minions hidden in a custom magic item, with none of us the wiser.

Admittedly, she chose corporeal, non-reproducing undead, like skeletons, probably due to Reason #1 above, but still, this was a thing that happened, and not even at epic levels. We were roughly mid-level, between 10-12 if memory serves.

And it wasn't even an Evil campaign.

[Kafana]

I think I failed to convey one of my points - A question does come to mind: Can this be a good thing?

Say that you are near completing the main quest, so the DM has created content and 80% of it you have played through, so you're not cheating a DM. Say that a PC Dread Necromancer has become frustrated with the people here for one reason or another, to the point where he lost it. Now, say that one day, out of respect for the party, he leaves in the middle of the night, not harming them, and goes on a rampage a few villages later.

That PC would have 1 session with the DM for himself (possibly online), while the others have a session or two to figure out what's going on. If they do and decide to put a stop to the renegade PC we have an adventure. Regardless of the outcome, the hero now turned villian PC will eventually be stopped, if by the head wizards from a nearby town, or something similar, but he should be able to cause mayhem to some extent. This could be an interesting story.

The only bad thing about all of this is that my campaign world is fairly low on population because of wars and god invasions, and the biggest town in the world has like 30k people, though it's large enough to house 50. That being said, the average town has a decent amount of low level characters, and even a few in the low-mid levels.

[Tvtyrant]

A first level Dragonfire Adept with two flaws can create a cloud of fire with his breath attack, that lasts an effectively infinite number of rounds, grows every round that it exists eventually covering the entire prime material plane, and deals at least one fire damage per round to any creatures or objects in it, plus it risks setting anything flammable on fire. As a supernatural ability it cannot be dispelled, but luckily all it takes is a Warblade stepping into it and initiating Iron Heart Surge to put a stop to it. Note that the number of rounds that the cloud lasts is the same number of rounds he has to wait to use his breath attack again, so you'll be stuck with a DFA who's no longer able to use his breath attack ever again. Only use this if your DM arbitrarily bans ToB.

So that he can quickly and reasonably ban the player.