Druid persistomancer?

[.Zero]

I'm looking for some ways to create a DMM druid.

I know little about this, but what i know is:

1) A single level dip in Cleric. Just simple as it is, you get 3+cha turn attempts per day. This is the most simple and the more exotic way, since you lose a caster level. But cannot be totally silly if we're talking about Cloistered Cleric, for it grants 6+int skills, all Knowledge as class skills and Knowledge Devotion. You also lose a hit dice tier.

2) A single level dip in Sacred Exorcist.

3) That Druid variant/ACF from Dragons Magazine.

This is all i know that grants turn attempts. But what to do after we have turn attempts?
Extra Turning feat is the most obvious solution, or we can cheese it with Nightstick stacking stuff.

Another Druid/Archivist option is the Bone Talisman spell in combination with the Unguent of Timelessness applied to the bones. This solution is the most interesting one, because you can get an arbitrarily high number of turn attempts if you have an arbitrarily high amount of time.
But what does this mean in an actual campaign? Let's say your Druid has somehow obtained 4 turn attempts (3+1 from cha mod), he's got a single Nightstick, resulting in a total of 8 turn attempts/day, that let you persist a single spell. But that's just too less isn't it? Your goal is to persist *AT LEAST* 5 spells per day, meaning that you need 27 more turn attempts.
So you start casting Bone Talisman. A single casting of the spell takes one minute, a 2nd level spell slot and gets you a single turn attempt. This means that you trade a spell slot for a turn attempt. How can we optimize on this? Sadly, eternal wands can't come in help, since they can store arcane spells only. Sadly again, regular wands are just too expensive: if I'm making my calculations right a wand of Bone Talisman at minimum caster level costs 4500gp (2spell level x 3caster level x 750gp), so assuming you burn two spell slots each day, getting 25 turn attempts each day costs 2250gp *per day*, and that's just too much.

So, my questions are:
Is there a way to constantly rely on the Bone Talisman spell to get turn attempts?
How much does a Druid get from persistomancy? Well, i know that Persistent Bite of the Werebear and Persistent Foresight are good and that Persistent Shapechange is insane, but we also need to consider costs.

Suggestions?

[eggynack]

I tend to hold to the idea that persist shenanigans don't do as much for druids as they do for others. Most of their best buffs are just naturally long term in nature, whether they be heart of X, the primal line, or even greater magic fang. Persisted linked perception is pretty funny though.

[Snowbluff]

Bite of the Werewhatever is a frakking GEM, eggy! They consist of some of the highest Enhancement bonuses in the game, but have only round/level durations.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

1. This is the method I would go with, assuming you're taking the Planning and Undeath domains for Extra Turning and Extend Spell. You can also use wands and staffs of Cleric spells.

2. You would need to gain Dismissal or Dispel Evil as a Druid spell. This can be accomplished with a prestige class that can get you the Balance or Good domain. That will require gaining Knowledge: Religion as a class skill, which is as easy as Knowledge Devotion or similar. That means you're spending a feat to qualify for a Contemplative dip at 11th (or Divine Disciple 4 at 11th) to qualify for a Sacred Exorcist dip at 12th, but according to PHB p58-59 you gain class features for a new level after you pick your feat at a new level. You can't get DMM: Persist as your 12th level feat with this because you won't have a Turn Undead ability until after you've selected your 12th level feat.

3. This has the same issue as 2., Wild Reaper from Dragon 311 gets Turn Undead at level 12. You get class features after feats, so you don't have Turn Undead until after you've selected your 12th level feat.

I have my doubts as to whether Bone Talisman alone will enable you to use divine feats such as DMM. From Complete Divine p77:

Each use of a divine feat costs a character a minimum
of one turn or rebuke attempt from her number of
attempts each day. If you don’t have any turn or rebuke
attempts left, you can’t use a divine feat...
...Regardless, you may activate
only one divine feat (or use the ability to turn or
rebuke undead once) per round, though overlapping
durations may allow you the benefi ts of more than
one divine feat at a time.
Bone Talisman does not grant a daily Turn Undead use, it grants a one-time Turn Undead use. Regardless, you cannot activate more than one Bone Talisman per round, so even if they're able to power divine feats, they can only power a divine feat that takes a single use of Turn Undead to active.


Bite of the Werewhatever is a frakking GEM, eggy! They consist of some of the highest Enhancement bonuses in the game, but have only round/level durations.

Not to mention Stormrage and Superior Magic Fang.

[eggynack]

Bite of the Werewhatever is a frakking GEM, eggy! They consist of some of the highest Enhancement bonuses in the game, but have only round/level durations.
They're very nice at doing the thing that they do, but I just don't see them as all that useful. Druid beatstickery should be derived from summoning and the animal companion, rather than from direct action which eats up actions and puts you in danger. I'm not saying that a direct melee druid can't work, but it doesn't seem as good as the more caster oriented alternatives, and thus probably not worth the investment into persisting stuff.

[Snowbluff]

Occular spell would let you persist on your AnC.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Get Companion Spellbond or just ride your animal companion and you can buff it into the stratosphere with personal-range DMM: Persistent spells.

[eggynack]

Occular spell would let you persist on your AnC.
Perhaps, but then you're at an even greater investment. Persist does quite a bit on a druid, and there's no doubting that, because they do have a reasonable number of short duration buffs. However, it just seems quite a bit worse than on something like a wizard or cleric, and also somewhat more difficult to acquire. A pretty good direction to go, overall, but I'm doubtful that it's the best one.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I agree with eggy that the investment isn't really worth it. You'd spent at least 3 feats, probably four or more if you include Extra Turning. There's a lot of really good druid-only feats that you could take instead and DMM just doesn't mesh that well with the druid spell list. Also, charisma isn't all that useful for you.

If you want persist the easiest way is probably Leadership. Get a cohort with 3 levels of Incantatrix and have him persist your spells for you and spend your other feats on better things. Bonus for getting any other metamagic you may want, too (except Quicken).

[Snowbluff]

Eggy, Pheonix, you're right. Druid's shouldn't be in melee. While we're at it, it's a waste not going planar shepard.

[eggynack]

Eggy, Pheonix, you're right. Druid's shouldn't be in melee. While we're at it, it's a waste not going planar shepard.
We are still talking about persistomancy, right? And you're trying to lay claim to some variety of high horse, in which my "Druids should emphasize magic more, and have better ways to use feats" position is somehow just so hyper-optimized that it's ridiculous? It seems somewhat odd.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Perhaps, but then you're at an even greater investment. Persist does quite a bit on a druid, and there's no doubting that, because they do have a reasonable number of short duration buffs. However, it just seems quite a bit worse than on something like a wizard or cleric, and also somewhat more difficult to acquire. A pretty good direction to go, overall, but I'm doubtful that it's the best one.

It's almost certainly not the 'best' direction you could go, but it's definitely an extremely powerful one. A Druid who multiclasses a single level to gain some advantageous class feature that he couldn't get from Druid is still an extremely powerful character. You could go for a Monk dip to add your Wis bonus to your AC and Unarmed Strike in animal forms, assuming you don't have access to or a favorable ruling on a Monk's Belt + Wilding Clasp. You could dip a Warblade level at 9th to gain Wall of Blades and Iron Heart Surge. You can dip Seeker of the Misty Isle for the Travel domain and add all of its spells to your Druid casting. You can dip Cloistered Cleric to get Turn Undead, Knowledge Devotion, Extra Turning, and Extend Spell, so you only need to spend two feats for DMM: Persist. You could even go Druid 8/ Suel Arcanamach 2/ Arcane Hierophant, using an Elf race to meet the weapon proficiency prerequisites of SA. None of those will make you noticeably weaker than a single-classed Druid, and often they'll put you at a significant advantage.

[eggynack]

Well, I mean, if we're just hanging out in, "Any druid is an awesome druid," territory, it almost seems not worth evaluating this stuff. Incidentally, spelldancer is pretty sweet at this sort of thing, though seriously feat intensive.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Well, I mean, if we're just hanging out in, "Any druid is an awesome druid," territory, it almost seems not worth evaluating this stuff. Incidentally, spelldancer is pretty sweet at this sort of thing, though seriously feat intensive.

Per the original post, this thread is about the best way to put DMM: Persist on a Druid, not whether or not it's a good idea in the first place.

[eggynack]

Per the original post, this thread is about the best way to put DMM: Persist on a Druid, not whether or not it's a good idea in the first place.
The original post actually asks both questions, particularly asking the latter in the last paragraph (or second to last, if "suggestions?" qualifies as a paragraph).

[sleepyphoenixx]

While i could answer the question "how much does a druid get from persistomancy" with "not that much" i think the OP will get a lot more out of it if i explain why i think so.

Yes, every spellcaster can benefit from adjustment-free persist. Druids just don't get nearly as much out of it as clerics do, even without the additional hoops they have to jump through.
Aside from the cleric list just being better for persist the class also doesn't get the same selection of awesome feats. You can take other stuff but DMM is pretty much the best there is for a cleric.
Even if you're going to focus on melee you don't need persisted Bite of the X to be effective. If you're going to dip and spend 3 feats you could just as well get a level of Shiba Protector for a bigger boost to your attacks. It'll even be available sooner than Bite of the Werebear and help your ranged attacks too.

Also, a druid could dip a level of commoner and still be a powerful character. That doesn't mean telling someone he can do that and still be awesome is good build advice.

[heavyfuel]

Spell dancer with Reach Spell so you can persist Sheltered Vitality and then persist everything you can. Like eggynack said, it's feat intensive, but I honestly swear by it for persistomancers

[Vaz]

http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20040721a

Druids can already Turn via Bone Talismans. They do not need to dip classes, or go through hoops to qualify for sacred exorcist. It seems OP'd until you realise that you are burning all of your 2nd level spell slots to persist one spell at max level, and the only way it can be broken is through a ton of pearls of power and access to echoing spell.

[Tvtyrant]

9th level spell: Undermaster, free SLAs all day long as standard actions.
8th level spells: Megalodon Empowerment nets you gargantuan wildshape
Stormrage, some cruddy lightning bolts and immunity to weather effects. Cast control weather on yourself!
Unearthly Beauty: All humanoids fort save or blinded, can force a fort save or die whenever you want.
7th level spell:
As the Frost (immunity to cold and other goodies)
6th level spells:
Aspect of the Earth Hunter turn into a bullette
Bite of the Wearbear, become awesome
Contagious Touch, make yourself a carrier of a disease.
Primal Speed, increase your speed and reflexes.

5th and lower probably have more, but I am bored now. Undermaster, Unearthly Beauty and Bite of the Werebear are all awesome and probably worth the persisting.

To get turn attempts I am going to suggest dipping Binder for Tenebrous if you can make that work out. Simply stack night sticks with the attempts and wait until your turn attempts refresh each morning. You can also bind Naberious in earlier levels and abuse either sanctified or corrupted spells, which are brokenly good.

[eggynack]

Megalodon Empowerment nets you gargantuan wildshape
I don't think this really helps. Megalodon empowerment means that the next form you take will be gargantuan, regardless of duration. You're getting at least hours/level, in other words. Moreover, either both the casting limitation and the size increase are linked to form of the killer, or neither is. In the former case, you'd want to expend away as quickly as possible, and the duration is useless, and in the latter, you actually have to expend away as quickly as possible.


Unearthly Beauty: All humanoids fort save or blinded, can force a fort save or die whenever you want.
The fact that it probably is just one save or die you're forcing, rather than infinite, makes this is a bit underwhelming.


Primal Speed, increase your speed and reflexes.
This just obviously doesn't do anything with persist, due to the base duration.

5th and lower probably have more, but I am bored now. Undermaster, Unearthly Beauty and Bite of the Werebear are all awesome and probably worth the persisting.
Y'know, I've gotta wonder whether the rounds/level mode of friendly fire can be persisted, despite the existence of the instantaneous mode. That'd be pretty great.

[Tvtyrant]

Nope, Unearthly Beauty if specifically a free action to induce the save or die, and there is no limitation on the number of times. It is an instant kill spell.

[eggynack]

Nope, Unearthly Beauty if specifically a free action to induce the save or die, and there is no limitation on the number of times. It is an instant kill spell.
That is one reading, but it's somewhat ambiguous. In particular, does, "At any time" imply that you can only do it once, unlimited in when you can use it that once, or does it mean that you can do it at any time, and then again at any other time? It's not all that clear cut.

[Tvtyrant]

That is one reading, but it's somewhat ambiguous. In particular, does, "At any time" imply that you can only do it once, unlimited in when you can use it that once, or does it mean that you can do it at any time, and then again at any other time? It's not all that clear cut.

That is fair. 3.5 had issues with... ambiguity. Like PAO and its madness.

For Megalodon Empowerment I would say it does persist both, as it is still a personal spell. I would make the same argument for the Heart of X line, although it is slightly more ambiguous there as it says "until expended" instead of a duration.

[eggynack]

For Megalodon Empowerment I would say it does persist both, as it is still a personal spell. I would make the same argument for the Heart of X line, although it is slightly more ambiguous there as it says "until expended" instead of a duration.
The point is that there's nothing that needs to be persisted in megalodon empowerment, because the effect is already hours/level without any persisting. Also, it's a bit of a sad thing, but there's nothing especially interesting at gargantuan animal. The roc is pretty sweet, and there's the spinosaurus for frightful presence, and a couple of other mediocre things, but nothing even vaguely comparable to dire tortoise.

[Tvtyrant]

The point is that there's nothing that needs to be persisted in megalodon empowerment, because the effect is already hours/level without any persisting. Also, it's a bit of a sad thing, but there's nothing especially interesting at gargantuan animal. The roc is pretty sweet, and there's the spinosaurus for frightful presence, and a couple of other mediocre things, but nothing even vaguely comparable to dire tortoise.

You are forgetting the whales (for strength, and you cast Flight + Bite of the X for attacks) and the Dire Elephant. Turning into a flying Cachalot with a full attack is not bad for level 15, and you can instant-kill a lot of creatures by flying up and dropping on them.

Edit: I am not disagreeing with you on any thing in particular here, except that I think there are enough persist spells to make it worth it. Disagreeing with you feels weird :P

[Chronos]

Even if Unearthly Beauty can only be used once per casting (which I believe was the intent, even if that's not what the RAW says), it's still a very powerful spell. First of all, you're not actually using it once, but twice: You are, of course, sharing it with your companion. Second, it's a free action, meaning you can get in those two save-or-dies in addition to whatever else you were doing. Third, it's a mass save-or-die that almost nothing is immune to (no descriptors things are likely to be immune to, not a Fort save so it can affect undead and constructs, supernatural so it doesn't offer spell resistance), at a level one lower than most classes get spells that don't do as much. Fourth, in addition to the killing option, you also get a free save-or-suck every single round.

And just for reference, the druid from Team Solar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?188138-Team-Solars-%28Archiving%29) (a high-op party based on persisting buff spells) prepares the following list:


Level 0: Create Water, Know Direction, Dawn x2, Purify Food and Drink, Mending
Level 1: Animate Water x2, Aspect of the Wolf, Crabwalk, Deep Breath, Endure Elements, Faerie Fire, Hawkeye, Rapid Burrowing, Snowsight, Speak with Animals, Surefooted Stride
Level 2: Burrow, Cloud Wings, Embrace the Wild, Nature's Favor x2, One With the Land, Primal Hunter, Tojanida Sight, Warp Wood, Wild Instincts, Reduce Animal
Level 3: Control Sand, Control Temperature, Daylight, Girallon's Blessing, Lion's Charge, Primal Instinct, Stone Shape x3, Wind Wall x2
Level 4: Control Currents x3, Essense of the Raptor, Eye of the Hurricane, Greater Blindsight x2, Freedom of Movement x2, Primal Senses, Superior Magic Fang
Level 5: Control Winds x3, Greater Vigor, Owl's Insight x2, Sirine's Grace, Transformation of the Deeps, Transmute Sand to Stone x2
Level 6: Bite of the Werebear x2, Energy Immunity x4, Find the Path x2, Primal Speed
Level 7: Control Weather x4, Sunbeam x2, Wind Walk x2
Level 8: Cocoon x3, Earth Glide x2, Earthquake x2, Sunburst8
Level 9: Cast in Stone, Nature's Avatar x2, Foresight, Undermaster x2, Planar Perinarch
I haven't gone through and figured out which of those are actually persisted, but it's a good place to start for looking for good druid buffs. It might be missing some which show up on other lists as well, though, since Team Solar uses various tricks to put everyone's buffs on everyone, and they also have a couple of wizards, a wu jen, and a cleric.

[eggynack]

You are forgetting the whales (for strength, and you cast Flight + Bite of the X for attacks) and the Dire Elephant. Turning into a flying Cachalot with a full attack is not bad for level 15, and you can instant-kill a lot of creatures by flying up and dropping on them.
They're alright. It just doesn't add much in the way of new stuff, even possibly in terms of combat utility. Also, this is still just a native druid ability, rather than a persist thing.


Edit: I am not disagreeing with you on any thing in particular here, except that I think there are enough persist spells to make it worth it. Disagreeing with you feels weird :P
I dunno if there's much of a point without spontaneous and arbitrary arguments :smallbiggrin:. In any case, as sleepyphoenixx notes, the biggest problem here is just how much you lose in the exchange. On a cleric, for whom most feats are naturally going to fall along the spell axis anyway, DMM persist is just about the best thing you can do. On a druid, where this is competing with natural spell, aberrant blood/aberration wild shape, greenbound or rashemi elemental summoning, natural bond, companion spellbond, and/or exalted companion, random summoning boosters like ashbound or augment summoning, and a bunch more, this is probably not the best thing you can do.

Overall, druids get hit hard on three separate axes as compared to clerics. Druid spells are naturally somewhat less compatible with persist than cleric spells are, even with the spells you've listed, picking up cost-reduced persist is a bit more expensive, even though it may not be prohibitively so, and druid feats are generally more valuable than those of other classes, owing to how ridiculous they tend to be. I think that persist is a valid path to pursue as a druid, but I doubt that it's among the best ways to go.

Edit: Huh. That druid list is kinda odd in some respects. Like, just at the outset, why would someone prepare earthquake? That's a weird choice for a high optimization game. I do appreciate the fact that the list has wild instincts on it though. That's a cool spell.

[.Zero]

@Biffoniacus
Wait, what's that stuff about Bone Talisman? I clearly remember that you posted a Druid build using prepared-ahead-of-time Bobe Talismans to get the necessary turn attempts to to persist spells (if you don't remember that build just google "3.5 druid baddie", or i'll edit and link it). So what's that meaning? Maybe that build is no more valid now?

@everyone else
Ok, it seems that the majority of you think that persisting isn't giving so much to druids, especially if we consider costs. But now i guess: isn't a "regular" druid (who relies on AnC, summons and hours/level buffs etc) some steps behind a DMM Cleric? I mean, DMM Persist is just gold! I'm holding the line that druid's hours/level buff can't compete with cleric's persistent buffs. But if we toss in a Druid with just persistent Foresight, Bite of the Werebear, Shapechanged into a Nilshai or a Thoon Elder Brain *plus* all the hours/level buffs, well, that's just beatstickery at it's best and you can still cast spells! And you also got your AnC buffed beyond the sky.

Is this still not worth it?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

@Biffoniacus
Wait, what's that stuff about Bone Talisman? I clearly remember that you posted a Druid build using prepared-ahead-of-time Bobe Talismans to get the necessary turn attempts to to persist spells (if you don't remember that build just google "3.5 druid baddie", or i'll edit and link it). So what's that meaning? Maybe that build is no more valid now?

You are correct, that build would need to have fewer DMM: Persistent spells or would need to obtain an alternate source of turn undead uses in light of this careful reading of how divine feats work and their possible interactions with Bone Talisman.

[Chronos]

Personally, I'm of the opinion that a druid is Tier 1 not because of how high its ceiling is, but because of how high its floor is. A fully-optimized druid will be inferior to a fully-optimized cleric or wizard, it's true (unless the druid is using Planar Shepherd), but at lower levels of optimization, the druid is likely to be superior. The class simply has no weaknesses.

[daremetoidareyo]

Isn't there a domain that grants turning attempts? Could you planar touchstone that badboy? Maybe some of the spells would be good buffs as well?

[Darrin]

Isn't there a domain that grants turning attempts? Could you planar touchstone that badboy? Maybe some of the spells would be good buffs as well?

Yes. Dragonlance Campaign Setting has a variant of the Sun domain that does exactly that: gain turn undead as a cleric. There are varying opinions on whether this would work. (But if you go by publication date, the Dragonlance Campaign Setting supercedes the Sun domain in the PHB.)

Planar Touchstone just gets you the domain power, though. You don't get the domain spells. However, the Catalogues of Enlightenment don't care what your deity is or what domains are in its portfolio.

Soldier of Light (Deities & Demigods) can get Turn Undead as a cleric, assuming Elishar is down with druids. Druid 7 can qualify, and grab DMM at ECL 9.

Another way to get Turn Undead 1/day: Magical Training (Player's Guide to Faerun) + Necromantic Bloodline (Dragon Compendium) + Kin Mastery (same book). Very feat intensive, but doesn't lose any caster levels. Assuming human taking Extend Spell at 1st, Natural Spell at 6th, Persist at 12th, DMM at 15th, Extra Turning at 18th... you could persist one spell at 18th level without resorting to Nightstick shenanigans.

If you happen to have some spare 113,600 GP lying around... check out the Shroudcrown, Player's Guide to Faerun p. 124.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Yes. Dragonlance Campaign Setting has a variant of the Sun domain that does exactly that: gain turn undead as a cleric. There are varying opinions on whether this would work. (But if you go by publication date, the Dragonlance Campaign Setting supercedes the Sun domain in the PHB.)

The Dragonlance Campaign Setting is a d20 resource, not a Dungeons and Dragons resource, so it will never override any Dungeons and Dragons rulebook in any D&D game that doesn't take place in the Dragonlance setting.

[eggynack]

@everyone else
Ok, it seems that the majority of you think that persisting isn't giving so much to druids, especially if we consider costs. But now i guess: isn't a "regular" druid (who relies on AnC, summons and hours/level buffs etc) some steps behind a DMM Cleric? I mean, DMM Persist is just gold! I'm holding the line that druid's hours/level buff can't compete with cleric's persistent buffs. But if we toss in a Druid with just persistent Foresight, Bite of the Werebear, Shapechanged into a Nilshai or a Thoon Elder Brain *plus* all the hours/level buffs, well, that's just beatstickery at it's best and you can still cast spells! And you also got your AnC buffed beyond the sky.

The issue with your analysis is that it's missing out on all of the stuff that druids just natively have in comparison to the DMM persist cleric, by merit of differences in list and ability. On the spell end, druids have stuff like the heart of X line, the primal line, greater magic fang (higher level for clerics, at least), enhance wild shape, and a massive amount of others. even your list of persistent spells mostly consists of 10 minutes/level stuff, which means that you can pretty much have shapechange and foresight all the time already.

On the ability front, druids automatically just have wild shape over clerics, which covers a lot of the melee ground that DMM tends to do, if not more, and obviously lets you do the nilshai thing all day. Wild shape is your persist in a lot of ways, at least for more basic stuff, and with investment, also for more advanced stuff. Cleric DMM stuff might be able to outperform hours/level stuff, but it seems less likely when you add wild shape into the mix.


Personally, I'm of the opinion that a druid is Tier 1 not because of how high its ceiling is, but because of how high its floor is. A fully-optimized druid will be inferior to a fully-optimized cleric or wizard, it's true (unless the druid is using Planar Shepherd), but at lower levels of optimization, the druid is likely to be superior. The class simply has no weaknesses.
Both, really. The ceiling isn't likely quite at cleric or wizard levels, but optimization can get you to some ridiculously awesome places. That can mean ridiculous aberration wild shape shenanigans, or fun with fey ring, or something as simple as just knowing all of the ways a druid can teleport.