Fake optimization

[CIDE]

Alright, so I found another game to participate in and submitted a character concept that the DM likes. The game is something akin to OOTS where the fourth wall is being broken to some extent. So even in character they'd have conversations about classes, leveling, feats, etc...

Long story short though I want to play the fake optimizer. A player/character that doesn't understand the game as thoroughly as they may think and would look at something like a ToB class or a VoP Monk and think it's over powered. The same person that upholds that belief and continues to play it even when proven that the opposite is true.

Problem is I'm not exactly sure how I want to build the character mechanically. There's monks and a swordsage so at least those two options are taken. There is an arcane caster but I'm not against playing a Truenamer. I think there's a cleric as well but not entirely sure. But overall I want to play a character that's balanced between useless and playable. Just playable enough to think they're accomplishing something. A caster/manifester that gives up caster levels for fancy class features, etc.

So, anyone have any ideas? Any help would be appreciated.

[Fouredged Sword]

I think you should play a bard. Bards are great for this concept. Pay up the flexibility side of things, and talk about being able to do anything. If you are not afraid of problems at low levels, consider the following.

Bard 1 / duskblade 3 / bard X / sublime chord 10

It's a funny little gish build that casts 9th level spells into melee strikes while staying a social skill monkey.

Everyone gets to look at you like your are crazy though.

OR

Fochlucan Lyrist

Do a bard < Druid X entry with a ring of evasion. Use Healing Hymn to pound out mass healing spells that heal tons of HP a round.

Alternativly, get the best level 1 healing spell in the game.

Bard 5 / War weaver 5 / Sublime Chord 10

Focus on buffing your allies, healing for 100's of HP to everyone as a move action 1/combat, and otherwise being an awesome party member who is USELESS on his own.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The first thing that comes to mind for this type of character is the Red Mage in 8-Bit Theater (http://www.nuklearpower.com/2001/05/26/episode-034-introductions-are-in-order/). (That's only episode 34, you may as well hit that 'first' button at the top and start from the beginning.) In case you didn't know, the Red Mage in the original Final Fantasy could learn black magic spells and white magic spells, use nearly any weapon, and wear nearly any armor. He was incredibly powerful in the first half or so of the game, but toward the late game he wasn't able to learn any of the higher level spells or use any of the higher level items, or something like that, I didn't really use that class.

What level are you starting out at, and what level do you expect to reach?

Edit: I vote for Factotum, with an I-can-do-that-too gimmick regarding what any other character in the party does. Put ranks in so many skills that you don't have max ranks in any of your skills (but not too low that you're useless). Max your Int score but try to have a bonus in every stat. Probably get Font of Inspiration three or more times, using flaws if necessary (City Slicker (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?258440-The-quot-Best-quot-Flaws#30) is a great choice for this). I'd also say you bested the Iron Wyrm Vault in CS to get Tactile Trapsmith without spending a feat on it if possible, which turns Search and Disable Device into Dex-based skills for you, and Factotum adds its Int bonus to all Dex-based skills! It's far from overpowered, but exactly the type of thing such a character would go around bragging about.

[Zombulian]

Alright, so I found another game to participate in and submitted a character concept that the DM likes. The game is something akin to OOTS where the fourth wall is being broken to some extent. So even in character they'd have conversations about classes, leveling, feats, etc...

Long story short though I want to play the fake optimizer. A player/character that doesn't understand the game as thoroughly as they may think and would look at something like a ToB class or a VoP Monk and think it's over powered. The same person that upholds that belief and continues to play it even when proven that the opposite is true.

Problem is I'm not exactly sure how I want to build the character mechanically. There's monks and a swordsage so at least those two options are taken. There is an arcane caster but I'm not against playing a Truenamer. I think there's a cleric as well but not entirely sure. But overall I want to play a character that's balanced between useless and playable. Just playable enough to think they're accomplishing something. A caster/manifester that gives up caster levels for fancy class features, etc.

So, anyone have any ideas? Any help would be appreciated.

Truenamer is a good way to go. Especially in the way that you can optimize extremely hard with them and use plenty of cheese but still have nothing more than mediocre class features, most of them just making the mage look good. I'd recommend picking up an Item Familiar and Dark Chaos Shuffling your bonus recitation feats away. Take a look at Zaq's handbook as well.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

I'd recommend taking tips from the Dungeon Bastard. (https://www.youtube.com/show/dungeonbastard) He's quite funny and gives advice that might put a player at the top of a casual beer and pretzels game.

One ideaof my own either a PF Summoner who's Eidolon who has lots of combat maneuvers available or an archer with several of the feats for doing maneuvers at range. Brag to everyone about your combat versatility.

[Owl Prowler]

Joker Monk?


Don't hurt me

EDIT: I think there was an old Dragon Magazine class that was dedicated to the idea of pretending to cast spells, and tricking people into thinking that you were a wizard. If you refluffed that so your character actually did think they were a wizard it could lead to some hilarious roleplaying scenarios.

EDITEDIT: Just found it: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6543.0

[Sith_Happens]

I think you should play a bard. Bards are great for this concept. Pay up the flexibility side of things, and talk about being able to do anything.

Uh, no. A "fake optimizer" would think that Bards are useless.

EDIT: Just realized the obvious class for this concept: Warlock. You have magic you can use all day. ALL DAY. You literally never run out. If that's not the most OP thing ever, I don't know what is.

[eggynack]

I think that what you really want is monkey grip. It seems like a style rather perfectly suited to this.

[Vhaidara]

Play a Human Druid who want's to become Pun-Pun. Take Craft Contingent Spell, and craft a contingent Reincarnate to trigger on your death. Fight with wild, reckless abandon until you die. Continue until you become a Kobold, then realize that you never read the other steps to becoming Pun-Pun.

[squiggit]

Uh, no. A "fake optimizer" would think that Bards are useless.

Depends. I can definitely see a Red Mage style "look at me I do everything" optimization idea working, but at the same time I remember for the longest time bards were considered useless singing joke classes for the groups I had when I was young and didn't know anything about D&D.


I think that what you really want is monkey grip. It seems like a style rather perfectly suited to this.

This 100% however. When I was new to tabletops and didn't understand anything about D&D monkey grip was the premiere of awesome "munchkinry" with my friends and I.

A drow ranger who dual wields monkey gripped falchions with a wolf companion.

I had to retire him from the table for being too amazing.

[CIDE]

snip


Those are pretty obvious and good solid builds. there's no real confusion there. Everyone already kind of knows where a Bard sits and what kind of role(s) it plays.


snip.


yeah, I've read the entirety of 8bit and loved every second (except the ending). Red mage is almost perfect and I'm not sure why I hadn't thought of it earlier. Factotum while fitting is also a class that people have OP'd the **** out of.



snip

I was heavily considering this option for that very reason. but someone that optimizes the hell out of a Truenamer in the aforementioned ways also has an understanding of the system that means they know they are playing a horrible class. Or...more than likely at least. Still, it's one class no one could feel horrible about when Optimizing it.




snip.


I'll have to take a look at the dungeon bastard. Also, it's a 3.5 game.


snip


What do you mean by Joker Monk? And reading that link. What I've read so far seems awesome for all of this.


snip


My thoughts exactly; fake optimizers think the Bard is a uselss and boring class with no depth.

And the Warlock totally fits! AND THINK OF HOW OP IT IS TO ALWAYS HIT TOUCH AC!



snip.


It doesn't work if it's something the DM will just outright go "That doesn't work that way". then again a build revolving entirely around rules that were misread would be awesome too.


snip.

That is an awesome idea too! But I think it'd be better to go with Master of Many forms and forget how to finish the rest since that way I'd also be losing spellcasting.

[eggynack]

It doesn't work if it's something the DM will just outright go "That doesn't work that way". then again a build revolving entirely around rules that were misread would be awesome too.

Nah, the idea is that you would use it entirely as written, with the prime goal of just wielding the biggest weapon possible, thinking that that's a path to amazing power, not recognizing how horrific it is.

[Vhaidara]

Nah, the idea is that you would use it entirely as written, with the prime goal of just wielding the biggest weapon possible, thinking that that's a path to amazing power, not recognizing how horrific it is.

Half Giant Psychic Warrior with Monkey Grip. Use Expansion. Hit people with a tree.

[CIDE]

Nah, the idea is that you would use it entirely as written, with the prime goal of just wielding the biggest weapon possible, thinking that that's a path to amazing power, not recognizing how horrific it is.


Ah...gotcha. But there are ways to make that effective.


Half Giant Psychic Warrior with Monkey Grip. Use Expansion. Hit people with a tree.

Add in the Titan bloodline if you're allowed to stack some f that stuff onto the big about the gigantic war hammer.

[Vhaidara]

Add in the Titan bloodline if you're allowed to stack some f that stuff onto the big about the gigantic war hammer.

Well, if you're bringing Titan bloodline into this, the correct race to use is Pixie.

[Owl Prowler]

What do you mean by Joker Monk? And reading that link. What I've read so far seems awesome for all of this.

The Joker Monk isn't so much an exercise in optimization as it is in misconstruing rules, abusing UMD poorly, and generally misunderstanding how optimization works. You could be the monk that's totally awesome, able to do everything well, and oh hey guys is it okay if we stop by the magic shop so I can partially recharge my wands?

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?80704-Beating-Batman-Sir-Giacomo-s-Guide-to-Monks

[CIDE]

Well, if you're bringing Titan bloodline into this, the correct race to use is Pixie.

Oh...yea. I love the image of a pixie carrying around and swinging a hammer several times larger.


The Joker Monk isn't so much an exercise in optimization as it is in misconstruing rules, abusing UMD poorly, and generally misunderstanding how optimization works. You could be the monk that's totally awesome, able to do everything well, and oh hey guys is it okay if we stop by the magic shop so I can partially recharge my wands?

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?80704-Beating-Batman-Sir-Giacomo-s-Guide-to-Monks


There's already several monks unfortunately. and if I do that I might as well just go the route of Optimized WBL Truenamer build.

[Owl Prowler]

There's already several monks unfortunately. and if I do that I might as well just go the route of Optimized WBL Truenamer build.

Yeah I know. That was just the first thing that popped into my head when you said "doesn't understand the game as thoroughly as they may think." More of a joke really. The Charlatan class looks much more promising to me anyway.

[Zombulian]

Yeah I know. That was just the first thing that popped into my head when you said "doesn't understand the game as thoroughly as they may think." More of a joke really. The Charlatan class looks much more promising to me anyway.

Awwwwwwww yeaaauhhhhh. My favorite PrC of all time. Pretend to be a Batman Wizard with your bluff skill.

[Story]

Ubercharger

Especially fitting since non-OP savy groups tend to think any melee dealing large damage numbers is OP.

[Gavinfoxx]

Exotic Weapon Proficiency Bastard Sword
Two Weapon Fighting
Monkey Grip
Oversized Two Weapon Fighting

= person who doesn't understand the game, trying to optimize.

Do have a backup of an actual competent strategy, maybe get power attack and two hand a normal sized greatsword. You know, for when you want to not suck.

[Vhaidara]

Ubercharger

Especially fitting since non-OP savy groups tend to think any melee dealing large damage numbers is OP.

The thing is, while it might not be OP, an ubercharger is optimized. As opposed to the monkey grip half-giant psywar, who hits people with a tree for like 14d6 damage. The goal is to roll a lot of dice, and uberchargers maximize their static bonuses, not their dice.

Wait, I was looking at the ToB legacy weapons earlier today (making a character who used all of them), and I noticed the Tiger Claw weapon.

It is a kukri that, as you level, gets a better crit mod. This gets even better if you can use PF feats, since there is a feat group called Critical feats that give you a bunch of crappy riders. Fighter, using the Tiger Fang (qualify for it with Martial Study and Martial Stance). You end up with a 15-20 crit range and a x4 multiplier. Stack on the bursts, tack on thundering.

[eggynack]

The thing is, while it might not be OP, an ubercharger is optimized. As opposed to the monkey grip half-giant psywar, who hits people with a tree for like 14d6 damage. The goal is to roll a lot of dice, and uberchargers maximize their static bonuses, not their dice.

Indeed so. Actually, come to think of it, a character focused on hurling large quantities of fire, wizard style, would also kinda fit, as would a character maximizing sneak attack dice. Really, anything that gets across that, "Look how many dice I have," flavor. Monkey grip probably fits best though, if only because it might be the thing in the game with the greatest discrepancy between how knowledgeable and unknowledgeable players look at it. Also because big weapons are super cool.

Y'know, it might be best to make things even more insane in the discrepancy, and make the character TWF those trees. TWF has a lot of that same "Looks good while being awful" stuff to it. If there's anything more munchkin than hitting someone with a tree, it's hitting someone with two trees (and if there's anything more munchkin than that, it's hitting someone with four trees. Thri-kreen, maybe?)

[squiggit]

Y'know, it might be best to make things even more insane in the discrepancy, and make the character TWF those trees.

I know when I didn't know jack about D&D monkey grip dual wield was considered the pinnacle of character power. Even better than spamming Meteor Swarm with a Wizard or flurrying with a monk.

[Vhaidara]

and if there's anything more munchkin than that, it's hitting someone with four trees. Thri-kreen, maybe?)

I. Want. To. Use. This.

[Story]

How about Domovoi (http://agc.deskslave.org/comic_viewer.html?goNumber=466) from Another Gaming Comic? That's a pretty classic case of fake optimization. (Link to actual build appears below the comic)

Basically, he decided to focus the build around two specific combos: Persistent Greater Invisibility and Spellwarp Sniper + Sandblast for saveless stun. Thanks to a misreading of the rules, he thought that Extended Sandblast would give him a 2 round no save stun, letting him stunlock and attack in between.

Unfortunately, he was so focused on those two specific tricks that he decided to lose a ton of caster levels in the process, ending up completely ineffectual in actual play, especially against enemies immune to his tricks.

[toapat]

Heres another option:

Spellthief.

the one rule is avoid Volley archery

[Sith_Happens]

The goal is to roll a lot of dice

In that case I'll reiterate Warlock. Eldritch Blast is almost as many dice as Sneak Attack! At range! Versus touch AC! While flying! All day! Did I mention ALL DAY!? So OP, am I right?

[Velaryon]

It seems to me that if you're looking for "thinks he's OP but he's really not" then you really can't do better than the Mystic Theurge. He gets to cast Wizard and Cleric spells! He's got so many spells that he never runs out! And it lets you do the Red Mage thing pretty well too. :smallcool:

As a bonus, it's one of those classes that a lot of less experienced players look at and think it's broken because they don't see the downsides (reduced caster level in each class, being 2 spell levels behind someone who focuses on one or the other, no more actions than anyone else to use those spells, total lack of other class features).

[eggynack]

It seems to me that if you're looking for "thinks he's OP but he's really not" then you really can't do better than the Mystic Theurge. He gets to cast Wizard and Cleric spells! He's got so many spells that he never runs out! And it lets you do the Red Mage thing pretty well too. :smallcool:

Mystic theurge is certainly up there, but you're still talking about a high tier caster that's only three levels behind. Now, a mystic theurge that's optimized specifically for fireballs and cure spells, that's a character I can get behind.

[Zombulian]

Mystic theurge is certainly up there, but you're still talking about a high tier caster that's only three levels behind. Now, a mystic theurge that's optimized specifically for fireballs and cure spells, that's a character I can get behind.

It's the best of both worlds!

[Svata]

Or a Favored Soul/Sorcerer/Mystic Theurge. Dedicated to those sam fireballs and cures, of course.

[eggynack]

Or a Favored Soul/Sorcerer/Mystic Theurge. Dedicated to those sam fireballs and cures, of course.
That's just about perfect. That way, the character can't even switch off to things that aren't fireballs and cures.

[Vhaidara]

That's just about perfect. That way, the character can't even switch off to things that aren't fireballs and cures.

Druid/Sorcerer. Now you have to prepare the healing spells.

[squiggit]

Druid/Sorcerer. Now you have to prepare the healing spells.

Favored Soul is cool though because it gets into that whole "I'm better than the cleric because I have more spell slots" mentality, which feeds the fake-op thing better.

[Story]

Or you could spontaneously summon Unicorns.


Of course, the best healing spells are prepared anyway. Lesser Vigor gives you more bang for the buck if you know that your party is going to need healing anyway.

[eggynack]

Druid/Sorcerer. Now you have to prepare the healing spells.
Maybe, though it'd probably have to be a shapeshifter druid, and maybe also trade away summoning for something. Actually, lets go with trading the companion for a phynxkin companion, because dragons are awesome, summoning for spontaneous affliction, cause it's badass, and if there's wild shape at any point, maybe aspect of the dragon, because I actually kinda like that one, and dragons are still awesome. At some point though, it's possible that we're going too far off the beaten path. It's feasible that cleric/wizard is the best, just because it's so iconic.

[Svata]

Favored Soul is cool though because it gets into that whole "I'm better than the cleric because I have more spell slots" mentality, which feeds the fake-op thing better.

Also it has (minor) CHA synergy, which wouldn't be there on a class with only one casting stat. But its still there, so it looks like you optimized to get it.

[toapat]

Druid/Sorcerer. Now you have to prepare the healing spells.

I feel like this is actually a step too far.

A "Fake Optimizer" (definitely not the correct term) seems moreso to be someone who optimizes without really understanding the things like practicality, balance, or what makes a given style effective or not.

These are not the people who dismiss the ToB for being overpowered (it is in relation to other mundanes but that is not synonimous with unbalanced within itself), they dismiss it as being overly complex for no gain but loved psionic combat in third.

However, this isnt a "picks something willfully obstructive to the objective", its about simply optimizing inefficiently or for the wrong reasons. The thing about Druid/Sorc is this doesnt just feel willfully against their objective, it is against them. they may elect to play a Mystic Theurge but the do so for again, the Heal/blaster. Warmage/Healer/Theurge would also be open to them.


In other words, nothing should be chosen to intentionally cripple. Optimize Bad/Ineffective/Inefficient methods of participating but dont Counter optimize

[Story]

I think the Domovoi build is a good example. Everything in the build has a justification for being there and looks cool on paper, the problem is just that Joe lost too many caster levels in pursuit of shiny Prc features. And even then it's not completely crippled, it just suboptimal.

[bekeleven]

I think that what you really want is monkey grip. It seems like a style rather perfectly suited to this.


Half Giant Psychic Warrior with Monkey Grip. Use Expansion. Hit people with a tree.

No, you fools! Human fighter with vow of poverty! Don't you see? YOU GET 30 FEATS! #) FEATS!!!

Spend one of them on monkey grip and use a large quarterstaff. QED.

[eggynack]

No, you fools! Human fighter with vow of poverty! Don't you see? YOU GET 30 FEATS! #) FEATS!!!

Spend one of them on monkey grip and use a large quarterstaff. QED.
Screw that. Elvish fighter with vow of poverty, cause of all the weapon proficiency feats. Then you dark chaos shuffle all of them away, and... crap, that kinda swung back around towards optimal at the end there.

[Zombulian]

I feel like this is actually a step too far.

A "Fake Optimizer" (definitely not the correct term) seems moreso to be someone who optimizes without really understanding the things like practicality, balance, or what makes a given style effective or not.

These are not the people who dismiss the ToB for being overpowered (it is in relation to other mundanes but that is not synonimous with unbalanced within itself), they dismiss it as being overly complex for no gain but loved psionic combat in third.

However, this isnt a "picks something willfully obstructive to the objective", its about simply optimizing inefficiently or for the wrong reasons. The thing about Druid/Sorc is this doesnt just feel willfully against their objective, it is against them. they may elect to play a Mystic Theurge but the do so for again, the Heal/blaster. Warmage/Healer/Theurge would also be open to them.


In other words, nothing should be chosen to intentionally cripple. Optimize Bad/Ineffective/Inefficient methods of participating but dont Counter optimize


I think the Domovoi build is a good example. Everything in the build has a justification for being there and looks cool on paper, the problem is just that Joe lost too many caster levels in pursuit of shiny Prc features. And even then it's not completely crippled, it just suboptimal.

I think both these quotes work quite well in tandem.


No, you fools! Human fighter with vow of poverty! Don't you see? YOU GET 30 FEATS! #) FEATS!!!

Spend one of them on monkey grip and use a large quarterstaff. QED.

I don't know why but I found it profoundly funny that you actually wrote #).

[CIDE]

Damn, didn't think this thread was going to explode like this.

So much stuff to read through and figure out now. Will get more info on some of that tomorrow. Too late tonight now.

Thanks guys.

[Shinken]

+1 to Warlock. You can easily change your character to a melee build when your 'I don't know how to optimize' character arc ends.

[Sith_Happens]

+1 to Warlock. You can easily start exploiting Imbue Item for fun and profit when your 'I don't know how to optimize' character arc ends.

FTFY. Full attacking with Eldritch Blast is nice and all, but real Warlock optimization is all about being a better Artificer than the Artificer.

[CommandTortoise]

Thing is, Warlock's too elegant. A munchkin build should be a terrible hodge-podge of supposedly synergistic things built on shaky RAW that's looks really good at something that's not that good or that's really impractical. Like a Titan-blooded Pixie that dual-wields Gargantuan Warhammers.

If your race doesn't have enough halves in it for a full party, what's the point?

[eggynack]

FTFY. Full attacking with Eldritch Blast is nice and all, but real Warlock optimization is all about being a better Artificer than the Artificer.
But... fake warlock optimization is at the heart of what's being discussed. I claim that your fixage is, in fact, an un-fixage. UFTFY, should be your true call.

[Sith_Happens]

But... fake warlock optimization is at the heart of what's being discussed. I claim that your fixage is, in fact, an un-fixage. UFTFY, should be your true call.

Shinken's suggestion was for what to do when the character does learn to optimize.

[eggynack]

Shinken's suggestion was for what to do when the character does learn to optimize.
True enough, I suppose.

[Sith_Happens]

To be fair to Shinken, though, Eldritch Blast optimization is a thing*, it just falls behind Imbue Item abuse on the scale of overall Warlock optimization.

* Melee blast shape + Hellfire Warlock + Binder dip + Uncanny Trickster and/or Legacy Champion progressing Hellfire Warlock = rolling enough d6's that you actually have crossed over into the "freaking awesome" range.

[Malroth]

LE Social variant Enchater focused specialist 5/Mindbender 10/Marshal 5 Attempt to overtly mind control your way to replacing the BBEG completely ignoring the fact that everything in the game is immune to your biggest trick.

[1pwny]

Yeah, you should totally build a warlock. By the way, are you allowed to use any homebrew?

I found this one warlock incantation, on the leaving-much-to-be-desired D&D wiki (http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Spider_Weave_(3.5e_Invocation)) no less, which I used to be Spiderman.

It was so great! I found a legit invocation (http://dnd.kermodebear.org/InvocationLists) that let me walk on walls, and took all those lesser invocations that gave you better reflexes and senses and stuff.

Aww, it was so great.

Oh, and by the way, #sooptimized. :smallbiggrin:

[TiaC]

So, here's (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Theurge_of_Charisma_(3.5e_Optimized_Character_Buil d)) a page that's come up on google a few times for me. It seems relevant.

You could also go with far too much LA. Half-Dragon-Half-Celestial-Half-Orc anyone? Then take tiny dips in a bunch of classes, making sure that some have conflicting alignments.

That's another thing! Make sure to do things that require severe backstory contortions. Then, badly justify them. E.g. for a game like this I wanted to get a Phaerimm into Shadowcraft Mage. So, I had his human parent polymorph into a Phaerimm and reproduce. This allowed him to take Human Heritage, thereby qualifying for stoneblessed, which allowed me to count as a gnome.

Use double weapons! I remember my first character wielding an orc double axe. Take Improved Toughness, because it's so much better. Whirlwind Attack must be awesome, right? Make a Dex Fighter, Dex adds to so much more! Overvalue BAB and take Spellsword 10!

[eggynack]

Ooh, I somehow forgot the druid fake-optimization plan. Beastmaster! Gaze in distant awe at his hoard of craptastic animal friends which can't even be collectively buffed by natural bond. Classic awesomeness in a horrible and impractical way. Blighter is also pretty awesome/terrible.

[Firechanter]

You might want to take some cues from characters that actual "Phantom-Optimizers" have played, as I call them. How about:

* A Ranger/Rogue/Monk TWFing with a Bastard Sword and a Kukri, both Keen of course.
* A Cleric skilled as Blaster with Fire Reserve and then going for spamming Flame Strikes.

(The first was something I did when I was new to 3E. The second is something one of my players drew up, he really thought of himself as an optimizer in fact.)

[Vhaidara]

Wait, guys we missed the obvious. He just has to build the most OP character ever.

Drow Ranger 16, dual wielding scimitars, with a panther for his animal companion.

[Anlashok]

Some stuff I've done when I was new:

-Monkey grip dual wielding
-Cleric who prepares Inflict spells in every single spell slot (for maximum damage)
-As above, but Sorcerer and Magic Missile.
-Mock wizard players because the Sorcerer is clearly better because spells/day is king.

I feel like the Sorcerer and Cleric are the best choice as you can always stop being bad if you need to later.

If you really want to double down on "pro damage" builds like this remember to get an 18 in your primary stat (for maximum power) and treat Con as your dump stat (Because you don't need survivability when everything is just dying).

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Just had a new tought based of Red Mage from 8-bit.

Take either Alacritous Cogiation or Uncanny Forethought dedicate spell slots to them then refuse to utilize them, because then you'd give up versatility.

[toapat]

Wait, guys we missed the obvious. He just has to build the most OP character ever.

Drow Ranger 16, dual wielding scimitars, with a panther for his animal companion.

again, this is against the actual idea of what the OP wants.

CIDE basically wants something that is, from an optimization standpoint, something not necessarily mechanically sound, but is at least taken with enough discipline to make mechanically sound, IE, the blaster wizard or non mailman sorc.

there are no redeeming qualities about TWF ranger

[Vhaidara]

again, this is against the actual idea of what the OP wants.

CIDE basically wants something that is, from an optimization standpoint, something not necessarily mechanically sound, but is at least taken with enough discipline to make mechanically sound, IE, the blaster wizard or non mailman sorc.

there are no redeeming qualities about TWF ranger

But it's the most badassest, most powerfullest character ever!

[3WhiteFox3]

Wouldn't just about anything from Iron Chef work well here? Especially things like Bladesinger or Blackguard.

[toapat]

Wouldn't just about anything from Iron Chef work well here? Especially things like Bladesinger or Blackguard.

I think Zinc Saucier would be more appropriate.

[Malroth]

Iron chef is full of bad concepts made good via TO, I think the original poster wanted a good concept made badly which is Why Domovoi from "Another gaming comic" was brought up, as he was a failure of a character made by someone who usually prides himself on his munchkinery.

[toapat]

Iron chef is full of bad concepts made good via TO.

which is part of what the OP wanted.

[bekeleven]

there are no redeeming qualities about TWF ranger

Sure there are. TWF works if you stack bonus damage. Martial Stance (Assassin's Stance) or rogue dip, Craven, Improved Favored Enemy, possibly dip chameleon for floating extra favored enemy. Then throw on WSAs that debuff on hit.

Is it as much damage as an ubercharger? That's not the question.

[3WhiteFox3]

which is part of what the OP wanted.

Besides both Zinc Saucier and Iron Chef typically use PO, I've seen very few, if any TO builds in there.

[Shinken]

Sure there are. TWF works if you stack bonus damage. Martial Stance (Assassin's Stance) or rogue dip, Craven, Improved Favored Enemy, possibly dip chameleon for floating extra favored enemy. Then throw on WSAs that debuff on hit.

Is it as much damage as an ubercharger? That's not the question.

A TWF Ranger can be a better charger than most. Be a Mystic Ranger. Spam Lion's Pounce.

[Vhaidara]

A TWF Ranger can be a better charger than most. Be a Mystic Ranger. Spam Lion's Pounce.

Except that that doesn't even compare to anything that uses Shock Trooper and gets pounce by dipping 1 level of Whirling Frenzy Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian.

[squiggit]

there are no redeeming qualities about TWF ranger

More importantly: We're not looking for redeeming qualities. We're looking for things that look like redeeming qualities if you aren't familiar with the system. Being able to stack "on hit" damage modifiers a half dozen times through TWF definitely fulfills the latter category, even if its raw DPS doesn't compare to a shock trooper once you look at the numbers. Stuff like "Oh many I get to sneak attacks and activate my flaming weapon six terms per round. I'm broken as ****" is pretty common from my experience.

[Vhaidara]

More importantly: We're not looking for redeeming qualities. We're looking for things that look like redeeming qualities if you aren't familiar with the system. Being able to stack "on hit" damage modifiers a half dozen times through TWF definitely fulfills the latter category, even if its raw DPS doesn't compare to a shock trooper once you look at the numbers. Stuff like "Oh many I get to sneak attacks and activate my flaming weapon six terms per round. I'm broken as ****" is pretty common from my experience.

Also: TWF Ranger = Drizz't, which was my original premise. Using that premise, TWF Ranger = the most OP class in the game.

[Threadnaught]

Straight Druid, don't worry, I know what you're thinking and you're right to be concerned. Druids are a very easy to optimize Class, but here's how we unoptimize them.


Pick a Race with a Wisdom penalty, the lack of Spells won't hurt you too much, your real strength will be from a higher Constitution score, or whatever stat got pumped.

Hawk Animal Companion, it has Flight and better AC than the Eagle, it's the best Animal Companion ever, never trade it in for anything else, no matter how cool the idea of having a giant Tortoise called Leonardo sounds, it isn't as powerful as something that can fly.

Pick a Wildshape form and stick with it, never use anything else. Not only will limiting yourself to some Wolf/Badger save you time when Wildshaping, but being the only alternate form means you'll be more experienced with this and it'll be far more powerful than some giant Tortoise/Polar bear, due to you knowing how to use all the abilities of the "weaker" form. Whereas the "stronger" forms all have numerous abilities attached to them, a rare few of which, synergize.

HP Damage Spells. Forget Summoning, Buffs or Utility, your Spells are for Blasting. The more HP damage you can cause, the faster you can kill enemies. I know, it's so obvious, it's surprising how often people miss it.

Avoid Natural Spell, it's a horrible Feat that weakens the Druid, it's like playing a Fighter19/Wizard1, Fighter is such a cool overpowered Class that everyone should like or they don't deserve an opinion, while Wizards suck and are a terrible Class that shouldn't exist due to how weak they are. That one level of Wizard ruins the Fighter build, more than anything else that isn't Fighter.


Okay, so what colour is sarcasm supposed to be?
And how do I separate the sarcasm from the serious suggestions?

[toapat]

More importantly: We're not looking for redeeming qualities. We're looking for things that look like redeeming qualities if you aren't familiar with the system.

Melee Ranger doesnt have those either.

The first opinion i had ever on favored enemy was "this sucks", now that i have better system mastery i understand its value but i consider it to suck in an entirely different way.

[Threadnaught]

Melee Ranger doesnt have those either.

Two-Weapon Fighting. :smalltongue:


If you can hit something enough times, it will die. The more times you can attack, the higher your chance of hitting something.

This thing is broken.

[eggynack]

Snip
Dumping wisdom just feels a bit inelegant. As I've previously mentioned, I think the best route is something like beastmaster, ditching all class features for something that definitely appeals to newer players seeking power. Blighter is nice too, though I feel like folks tend towards that one for flavor more than they do for power. You'd also probably do well to actually trade off this stuff instead of just using it poorly, as I think things like shapeshift and druidic avenger tend to appeal to new-folk. As for just classic druid plans, I'm of the opinion that quarterstaff melee optimization is one of the more overrated, so that could be a good direction for spell use.

Edit:
Two-Weapon Fighting. :smalltongue:


If you can hit something enough times, it will die. The more times you can attack, the higher your chance of hitting something.

This thing is broken.
The fact that I'm pretty sure Pickford has actually used that argument in the past supports your point some.

[Threadnaught]

Dumping wisdom just feels a bit inelegant.

Ahh, but who needs another Spell when they could have more HP? :smallamused:

[Vhaidara]

Guys, we all know the best druid is an Urskan who wild shapes into a black bear, while summoning black bears and riding his brown bear Animal Companion.

[toapat]

Two-Weapon Fighting. :smalltongue:

if we are going to the point of Failure of system Comprehension that getting TWF for free looks good we already can exclude it from the objective of the OP.


Guys, we all know the best druid is an Urskan who wild shapes into a black bear, while summoning black bears and riding his brown bear Animal Companion.

Bearberington the Bearbearian is hilarious but can actually become optimal.

That, and summoning Bear Cavalry is too awesome.

[eggynack]

if we are going to the point of Failure of system Comprehension that getting TWF for free looks good we already can exclude it from the objective of the OP.

I don't really see how. The entire point is someone who doesn't know the system that well, while thinking they're doing optimal things all the while.

[toapat]

I don't really see how. The entire point is someone who doesn't know the system that well, while thinking they're doing optimal things all the while.

no, we are talking about someone who doesnt accept evidence that certain strategies are unsound and optimizes them anyway. Blaster Wizard, Truenamer, or Spellthief are good examples/

[eggynack]

no, we are talking about someone who doesnt accept evidence that certain strategies are unsound and optimizes them anyway. Blaster Wizard, Truenamer, or Spellthief are good examples/
Also crazy TWF ranger. I don't see how it doesn't fit that paradigm. I mean, if you'd like, I can probably find some evidence of someone, probably Pickford, thinking that TWF without bonus damage is a good way to go despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

Edit: Here ya go (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?319810-Problems-with-Two-Weapon-Fighting). For bonus points, he eventually argues that a big saving grace of TWF is access to frigging two weapon defense. People think silly things about the game sometimes.

[toapat]

Also crazy TWF ranger. I don't see how it doesn't fit that paradigm. I mean, if you'd like, I can probably find some evidence of someone, probably Pickford, thinking that TWF without bonus damage is a good way to go despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

Edit: Here ya go (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?319810-Problems-with-Two-Weapon-Fighting). For bonus points, he eventually argues that a big saving grace of TWF is access to frigging two weapon defense. People think silly things about the game sometimes.

if the TWD line was one scaling feat it might be worth something. If the primary stuff wasnt split into 6 (base through perfect, the Standard action and AoO) feats it would also be good. Oh, and remove the stupid Offhand cant powerattack restriction and the half str.

but no, heres the real argument: Rogue. If they are going to go completely blind about TWF it will be with a rogue moreso because sneaky assassin DW types.

[Vhaidara]

but no, heres the real argument: Rogue

What, you mean the sneaky guys who suck at fighting because they're like monks with fewer HP?

[Threadnaught]

The fact that I'm pretty sure Pickford has actually used that argument in the past supports your point some.

Yay me. :smallbiggrin:

Shame it's picking on Pickford again. I like his stubbornness, to a point.

[eggynack]

if the TWD line was one scaling feat it might be worth something. If the primary stuff wasnt split into 6 (base through perfect, the Standard action and AoO) feats it would also be good.

Perhaps, but it's terrible. Which is the point. I think you got the opposite impression of the OP from the intended one. This player is explicitly supposed to not understand the game as much as they think they do, and the character is supposed to be balanced between useless and playable. You have the idea that this is supposed to be something crappy optimized into something good, but that doesn't appear to be the intent at all. You can bring up ideas along those lines, because they could also be feasible, but trying to force others to fit the way you're going about this just seems wrong. Fireball wizard who just happens to be good at fireballing folks is one way, but Drizzt with the entire TWD line is another way that's also fine.

Edit:
Yay me. :smallbiggrin:

Shame it's picking on Pickford again. I like his stubbornness, to a point.
I tended to like the arguments we got in. Hence my pretty sizable knowledge of arbitrary positions he's held and stuff he's said. I think Pickford and I had a decent working relationship, as applies to absolutely ridiculous discussions of pointless stuff.

[toapat]

What, you mean the sneaky guys who suck at fighting because they're like monks with fewer HP?

again, the objective is not incompetence because of incompetence, its incompetence due to willful ignorance. TWF Ranger is Incompetent because of incompetence. TWF Rogue Precision damage combatant is Incompetent due to Ignorance. There are ways to be competent with such but Improved Manyshot is much better then melee for that if not as potentially lethal. you are taking the example of a Vow of Poverty monk way too seriously when the OP's example was a bleeding edge optimization Truenamer because a truenamer is one of the best supports in the game and relatively practical to tone down when its needed once you get up there.


Perhaps, but it's terrible. Which is the point. I think you got the opposite impression of the OP from the intended one. This player is explicitly supposed to not understand the game as much as they think they do, and the character is supposed to be balanced between useless and playable. You have the idea that this is supposed to be something crappy optimized into something good, but that doesn't appear to be the intent at all.

Assuming it was fixed, not really. Nor am i saying TWF is off the table. Im saying TWF Ranger is off the table because its too ignorant of basic mechanics to actually qualify as what the OP wanted, which if you go back and read is something along the lines of a Fully Optimized Truenamer. Optimized to the point of functioning a Truenamer isnt incompetent but its by no means something anyone would call reasonably functional even at that state.

The reason i brought up spellthief is, Natively Spellthief is an interesting and fun class, but mechanically they are intrinsically unsound to play in their intended functions as dedicated Anti-mages. I would also advise against using them by virtue of his group composition being non-condusive to integrating a spellthief.

[eggynack]

again, the objective is not incompetence because of incompetence, its incompetence due to willful ignorance. TWF Ranger is Incompetent because of incompetence. TWF Rogue Precision damage combatant is Incompetent due to Ignorance. There are ways to be competent with such but Improved Manyshot is much better then melee for that if not as potentially lethal. you are taking the example of a Vow of Poverty monk way too seriously when the OP's example was a bleeding edge optimization Truenamer because a truenamer is one of the best supports in the game and relatively practical to tone down when its needed once you get up there.
And again, I just demonstrated a case where someone thought that a TWF fighter, possibly even less logical than a TWF ranger, was a good idea, primarily due to willful ignorance. And doubly again, things don't necessarily have to be the exact way you're saying. There can be multiple ways to do this, all living in harmony. I mean, seriously, at this point you're dismissing counterarguments to your point from the OP, because when he was talking about truenamers, he clearly meant it as an example of a great support class. What's the end game here? It is far better, I figure, to have more ideas swimming around.

[toapat]

It is far better, I figure, to have more ideas swimming around.

Ideas that have mechanical justification on some existant plane of the universe. Pickford however was a Troll with extreme system mastery who only existed to enrage the forums, and using him as an example is incorrect.

The OP wouldnt have brought up using a truenamer if "Logically flawed but possible to execute effectively" wasnt an intention

[Vhaidara]

Ideas that have mechanical justification on some existant plane of the universe. Pickford however was a Troll with extreme system mastery who only existed to enrage the forums, and using him as an example is incorrect.

The OP wouldnt have brought up using a truenamer if "Logically flawed but possible to execute effectively" wasnt an intention

One moment, let me confirm something
You are claiming that an optimized Truenamer is useful (for reasons other than level 20 Gate Spam)

[eggynack]

Ideas that have mechanical justification on some existant plane of the universe. Pickford however was a Troll with extreme system mastery who only existed to enrage the forums, and using him as an example is incorrect.
Apart from the fact that he was oft wrong, I don't see all that much defense for that position. I mean, really, he seems like exactly what is being sought: someone who stubbornly clings to their position despite plenty of evidence to the contrary.

The OP wouldnt have brought up using a truenamer if "Logically flawed but possible to execute effectively" wasnt an intention
... Or he could have just meant "Looks cool, but sucks." Seriously, what are you getting out of trying to nitpick the OP's words to attack ideas? If the OP doesn't like something, he can say so. The fact that he was cool with the idea of monkey grip means that he's probably cool with something on the scale of TWF ranger.

[Threadnaught]

I tended to like the arguments we got in. Hence my pretty sizable knowledge of arbitrary positions he's held and stuff he's said. I think Pickford and I had a decent working relationship, as applies to absolutely ridiculous discussions of pointless stuff.

I'd wondered what happened to him after not seeing anything for more than a month. I've missed him, now I know why I am very disappointed. :smallfrown:

[CommandTortoise]

One moment, let me confirm something
You are claiming that an optimized Truenamer is useful (for reasons other than level 20 Gate Spam)

You know, Truenamer might work. You go to all that effort of getting massive bonuses to your Truenaming skill and you end up with some sorta alright abilities, many of which have poor wording (which is a munchkin's favourite thing.)

And as for why you're doing it? Free Gate, of course! Obviously Truenamer is great with something like that. And if anyone points out that you don't get Gate for another dozen levels, look at them funny* and ask them "Well why aren't we killing things for XP right now?" like they're the crazy one.

*IC, I mean. Well, in your out-of-character character anyway.

[toapat]

One moment, let me confirm something
You are claiming that an optimized Truenamer is useful (for reasons other than level 20 Gate Spam)

A Truenamer optimized to the point of functioning actually has higher DCs needed then those for gatespamming actually. Granted 44+ Whatever the casting DC of gate is is all you need.


Apart from the fact that he was oft wrong, I don't see all that much defense for that position. I mean, really, he seems like exactly what is being sought: someone who stubbornly clings to their position despite plenty of evidence to the contrary.

... Or he could have just meant "Looks cool, but sucks." Seriously, what are you getting out of trying to nitpick the OP's words to attack ideas? If the OP doesn't like something, he can say so. The fact that he was cool with the idea of monkey grip means that he's probably cool with something on the scale of TWF ranger.

Pickford was far too good at inspiring discontent then willful ignorance or someone unwilling to change their stance ever is. His topics went on far longer then either of those would because people who dont want to learn abandon the argument as "The Heretics will not learn" while the willfully ignorant walk away in frustration to complain IRL

And the logic that leads to Monkeygrip is the same that created Titan Bloodline pixie. Mechanically its just a form of EWP, and to me it seems more inspiration for taking Monkeygrip would point towards using 2H weapons, not 1H. Name anyone wielding giant oversized weapons DW ouside of videogames.

[eggynack]

Pickford was far too good at inspiring discontent then willful ignorance or someone unwilling to change their stance ever is. His topics went on far longer then either of those would because people who dont want to learn abandon the argument as "The Heretics will not learn" while the willfully ignorant walk away in frustration to complain IRL
That's not really how they tended to go. Pickford arguments tended to get latched on to minute details on a repeated basis, rarely sticking to a consistent argument long enough to reach a completed state. His stances also remained reasonably consistent across threads.


And the logic that leads to Monkeygrip is the same that created Titan Bloodline pixie. Mechanically its just a form of EWP, and to me it seems more inspiration for taking Monkeygrip would point towards using 2H weapons, not 1H.
The point is that it sucks, which it does, and the TWF ranger is a suitably iconic idea to hold similar appeal.

[toapat]

The point is that it sucks, which it does, and the TWF ranger is a suitably iconic idea to hold similar appeal.

Considering my experience with the Gnome & Halflings* thread i made earlier this year, and my experiences getting pissed at the playground and at him, he was never doing anything but working people into annoyance for his own enjoyment.

isnt the rediculous glitch of Titan Bloodline Pixie that you still cant attack across squares while wielding a weapon 30' long? Then there is the problem that you need Cancer Mage + Festering anger just to pick up the hammer

*while that thread technically fits the site definition of trolling, and i went in with my own opinion, i really did want to see what other people thought of that.

[Threadnaught]

Pickford was far too good at inspiring discontent then willful ignorance or someone unwilling to change their stance ever is. His topics went on far longer then either of those would because people who dont want to learn abandon the argument as "The Heretics will not learn" while the willfully ignorant walk away in frustration to complain IRL

But, TWF is awesome in Skyrim, how can it be weak in D&D? :smallconfused:

Scout is super fast and impossible to hit in Team Fortress 2, a Monk with Spring Attack has got to be the best thing ever.

Legolas can kill just about anything with a few arrows, archery must be pretty powerful.

[eggynack]

Considering my experience with the Gnome & Halflings thread i made earlier this year, and my experiences getting pissed at the playground and at him, he was never doing anything but working people into annoyance for his own enjoyment.
I'm somewhat doubtful that you can lay claim to some Pickford experience edge over me. I've been in a lot of arguments with the fellow.


isnt the rediculous glitch of Titan Bloodline Pixie that you still cant attack across squares while wielding a weapon 30' long?
Can't say I'm all that familiar with it, though as far as I'm concerned, the main idea is just that we're using a big weapon in general, just like the idea with TWF is that we're hitting a bunch.

[toapat]

Can't say I'm all that familiar with it, though as far as I'm concerned, the main idea is just that we're using a big weapon in general, just like the idea with TWF is that we're hitting a bunch.

theres nothing technically mechanically unsound with using a monsterously oversized weapon beyond the problem of not scaling range increments and that typically an exotic weapon proficiency covers the same thing on average.

there is the logical fallacy that rolling more dice is better, which is a result of Powerattack and the interactions with charging feats.

[eggynack]

theres nothing technically mechanically unsound with using a monsterously oversized weapon beyond the problem of not scaling range increments and that typically an exotic weapon proficiency covers the same thing on average.
You mean besides the fact that you're also incurring a -2 penalty on attack rolls?

[squiggit]

You mean besides the fact that you're also incurring a -2 penalty on attack rolls?

Real optimizers don't care about that. If they only hit on a 15 that just means they'll be doing eleven billion damage when they do.

[ericgrau]

Things that I heard were uber which are actually only kinda good if that:
Templates in general
Prestige classes in general (even if it's not a super special one)
Spiked chain + reach + attacks of opportunity
Paladins
Improved initiative (though it does combo well with high op 1 turn kills, for you not so much)
Two weapon fighting / lots of attacks in general
Vow of Poverty
Scribe scroll


The first thing that comes to mind for this type of character is the Red Mage in 8-Bit Theater (http://www.nuklearpower.com/2001/05/26/episode-034-introductions-are-in-order/). (That's only episode 34, you may as well hit that 'first' button at the top and start from the beginning.) In case you didn't know, the Red Mage in the original Final Fantasy could learn black magic spells and white magic spells, use nearly any weapon, and wear nearly any armor. He was incredibly powerful in the first half or so of the game, but toward the late game he wasn't able to learn any of the higher level spells or use any of the higher level items, or something like that, I didn't really use that class.

What level are you starting out at, and what level do you expect to reach?
For this concept I'd go Nale style and play some kind of fighter-wizard with perhaps a 1 level or so rogue dip for trapfinding and skills. Level 1 is a good level for more skill points. It's a "needlessly complicated bard" so to speak, without actually playing a bard.

Big tangent alert: In FFI red mage is actually quite superb throughout the game as a support class. If you ever get nostalgic I'd give him a try in your 2nd or 3rd party slot. Ya he is uber for the first few levels but that quickly goes away. The big advantage is that he can provide fast, life and exit and still swing a sword and wear ok armor. The last two are very important in this odd rpg that favors fighters over casters, yet you still don't lose the essential spells. The strongest party I've ever used is fighter, fighter, red mage, black belt. The concept here is to use 4 fighters as the baseline for high power. But your 3rd slot won't get hit much so ok armor will do, and red mage can use your 3rd strongest weapon no problem. So the utility magic is an upgrade over a 3rd fighter with nothing lost. Likewise black belt's fists are stronger than your 4th best weapon, save gold and he won't get hit much in the 4th slot so armorless is ok. Thus he is an upgrade over a 4th fighter. Early on this is less true though and you may want to kill him off for faster xp until mid game. But later you'll want 4 party members to better soak stun effects. My favorite party to play for the most fun is red mage, white mage, black mage, black mage. It's semi-fragile but red mage and white mage can take a couple hits plus it ends fights in 1-2 rounds before you get hurt. You don't run out of high level spells to make this happen because early on you have red mage + 2 black mages for damage, and in late game you have white wizard (fade or sometimes harm3) + 2 black wizards. So you always have 3 strong casters regardless of level, yet enough tankiness to take a couple hits. Unlike 4 black wizards (or even a black wizard in your 2nd slot) which might collapse even before the first spell. Notice that I never mention healing? Use potions. Potions between fights + good tanking is usually way better.

[toapat]

You mean besides the fact that you're also incurring a -2 penalty on attack rolls?

by that logic PA is one of the worst feats in the game.

[eggynack]

by that logic PA is one of the worst feats in the game.
That's not the direction that logic works. If PA were bad, then monkey grip would be one of the worst feats in the game, but monkey grip being terrible doesn't make PA necessarily bad. In particular, PA has the primary benefit of having piles of support, mainly shock trooper, but also the many multipliers, and it is also better because you can adjust it up or down, while you're mostly stuck with a particular adjustment when using monkey grip. Just consider using monkey grip to swap from a medium to a large greatsword, or even from large to huge. At either conversion, you're getting something slightly worse than just PA'ing for two, except with PA, you can also PA for three or zero. There are some break points where monkey grip gets a bit better, but the same sort of investment tends to get you stuff like the aforementioned shock trooper.

[Vhaidara]

That's not the direction that logic works. If PA were bad, then monkey grip would be one of the worst feats in the game, but monkey grip being terrible doesn't make PA necessarily bad. In particular, PA has the primary benefit of having piles of support, mainly shock trooper, but also the many multipliers, and it is also better because you can adjust it up or down, while you're mostly stuck with a particular adjustment when using monkey grip. Just consider using monkey grip to swap from a medium to a large greatsword, or even from large to huge. At either conversion, you're getting something slightly worse than just PA'ing for two, except with PA, you can also PA for three or zero. There are some break points where monkey grip gets a bit better, but the same sort of investment tends to get you stuff like the aforementioned shock trooper.

To example the math, Monkey Gripped Greatsword = 3d6 for -2 to hit. That's an average of 3.5 damage. This occurs no matter what you want (high AC, low health targets take advantage of this)
Power Attack for 2 with a medium Greatsword = 2d6+4 for -2 to hit. This can be modified to fit your opponent, and you can take feats like Shock Trooper or Leap Attack to improve this trade.

[toapat]

That's not the direction that logic works.

the actual reason that Monkeygrip sucks is that it is, from a purely objective standpoint, always inferior to the functional equivalent exotic weapon proficiencies.

the scaling however, is not actually direct conversion.

For medium weapons with a D8, D10, or d12 damage roll, Monkeygrip actually beats power attack. However for greatswords and falchions its not worth it.

Yes powerattack has a plethora of good feats but that isnt the comparison.

Why Large D-axes/B-swords outclass greataxes/greatswords i dont know. 13.5/attack > 10.5/attack. Go dwarves?

[eggynack]

the actual reason that Monkeygrip sucks is that it is, from a purely objective standpoint, always inferior to the functional equivalent exotic weapon proficiencies.
It sucks for lotsa reasons really. Hence my mentioning it.


For medium weapons with a D8, D10, or d12 damage roll, Monkeygrip actually beats power attack. However for greatswords and falchions its not worth it.

It only really does that if we're talking about one handed weapons, and I somehow doubt that anyone's tossing around one handed power attack as a stellar example of featery. Were you to two hand a long sword, or bastard sword, then power attack would come out ahead, providing the same 4 damage in comparison to the same 3.5 damage. Power attack breaks even with monkey grip greataxe, but that's not exactly a great thing when other factors exist.


Yes powerattack has a plethora of good feats but that isnt the comparison.
Well, given the fact that some think the feat is only really good with that support, it kinda is. It's a pretty commonly claimed thing, actually.

Why Large D-axes/B-swords outclass greataxes/greatswords i dont know. 13.5/attack > 10.5/attack. Go dwarves?
I think you're looking at huge bastard swords, rather than large ones, which explains the discrepancy rather well. Pick up power attack, or swap out for a huge greatsword/greataxe, and the latter comes out ahead.

[CIDE]

Waayyy bigger response than I was expecting here.

For starters wouldn't the DFA fit in with the Warlock for the very same reasons? Even if nothing could ever survive unlimited ranged touch attacks!. DFA also lacks the potential cheese from imbue item.

Also, nothing even remotely resembling Drizzt. I hate that Marty Stu with a passion. No monks or builds that include monk since there's already two monks and a swordsage in the party.

I'm eyeballing the Pixie idea but that'd really put me behind. I don't think the LA is playable in this game (though, RHD are leveled through so we have a lvl 1 Succubus).

The TWF with monkey grip while initially impressive doesn't exactly let me keep up later on; even with a party with monks and Paladins. Though thematically for what I had in mind it does work really well.

The spiked chain idea falls into the same category but it was also already explored in OOTS. The Druid also doesn't work; none of the suggestions seem like an optimal choice regardless of reading over the alternatives EXCEPT maybe the blasting spells (and that would go to the Sorc/Wiz for play anyway).

And Truenamer doesn't exactly fit with what I had in mind. I only brought it up because someone can build it and think they're going overboard with optimization to the point of being the strongest around and still fall flat on their ass. It's...technically real optimization of a poor class. I should've left it out.

[Story]

You know, Truenamer might work. You go to all that effort of getting massive bonuses to your Truenaming skill and you end up with some sorta alright abilities, many of which have poor wording (which is a munchkin's favourite thing.)

Truenamer doesn't work. The problem is that it's obscure enough that it's notorious only for being broken. That's literally the first thing anyone searching for it online will find. So anyone playing an optimized Truenamer will be going in with both eyes open and working around a deliberate handycap, which is not what this thread is looking for.

The goal here is to find something that someone could mistakenly think is powerful, but isn't actually.

[toapat]

*wrong*

look at the tables in the SRD for size changes with weapons, The Bsword/Daxe goto D8s where everything else once it hits multidie throws is using D6s. Greataxes skip from d12 to 3d6. d8s goto 2d6 (which is superior for 1h but not 2H). When i referenced the tables in DandDwiki i was thinking they were wrong so i crossreferenced with hypertextd10 and its the same.

[Vhaidara]

look at the tables in the SRD for size changes with weapons, The Bsword/Daxe goto D8s where everything else once it hits multidie throws is using D6s. Greataxes skip from d12 to 3d6. d8s goto 2d6 (which is superior for 1h but not 2H). When i referenced the tables in DandDwiki i was thinking they were wrong so i crossreferenced with hypertextd10 and its the same.

Yes, B-sword goes to 2d8 (2-16) at large. G-sword is at 3d6 (3-18). How is the B-Sword better?

[eggynack]

look at the tables in the SRD for size changes with weapons, The Bsword/Daxe goto D8s where everything else once it hits multidie throws is using D6s. Greataxes skip from d12 to 3d6. d8s goto 2d6. When i referenced the tables in DandDwiki i was thinking they were wrong so i crossreferenced with hypertextd10 and its the same.
Yeah, but look at the actual underlying numbers. Longsword goes from 1d8, for an average of 4.5 damage, to 2d6, for an average of 7 damage. Less than if you power attacked with it, if it were two handed, in other words, or exactly as I said it was, to use even more other words. Bastard swords go from 5.5 to 9, which is, y'know, also an increase of 3.5 damage, and d12 to 3d6 is a movement from 6.5 to 10.5. So... yeah. I assume that you also concede the point on large bastard swords dealing more than large greatswords, cause obviously.

[ericgrau]

Well monkey grip alone is a little worse than power attack alone. And you can optimize PA more than you can optimize monkey grip. But that doesn't make it a poor choice, only an inferior one. Once you start stacking size bonuses it gets pretty decent. If you say it is poor because it is inferior to shock trooper, then nearly every melee feat is poor. Stacking size bonuses still falls under semi-high optimization. Monkey grip alone isn't that great, but then power attack alone isn't that great either, and it's only a little better. And we're talking about 0-3 effective damage per hit for PA and 0-2.5 effective damage per hit for monkey grip. "Effective damage per hit" means the amount of (penalty free) bonus damage required to get the same increase in damage per round.

[eggynack]

Well monkey grip alone is a little worse than power attack alone. And you can optimize PA more than you can optimize monkey grip. But that doesn't make it a poor choice, only an inferior one. Once you start stacking size bonuses it gets pretty decent.
Yeah, that's about what I was figuring as a way to loop such a character back around to competency.

If you say it is poor because it is inferior to shock trooper, then nearly every melee option is poor.

Well, most certainly are. AoO/tripping at least has the advantage of granting some BFC capability, and dungeoncrasher stuff has some unique qualities, along with a certain degree of niftiness. Monkey grip has little to offer by way of comparison.

[ericgrau]

It's more than just competency when you start stacking a lot of size bonuses. You can start one shotting a lot of foes and it pretty much becomes real optimization, only slightly worse.

Monkey grip by itself could be used as fake optimization. But then so could PA by itself. Or get both for the redundancy lolz.

[Arbane]

but no, heres the real argument: Rogue. If they are going to go completely blind about TWF it will be with a rogue moreso because sneaky assassin DW types.

Better yet: Ninja.

For REAL ULTIMATE POWER!!!@!1!one!



I'm eyeballing the Pixie idea but that'd really put me behind. I don't think the LA is playable in this game (though, RHD are leveled through so we have a lvl 1 Succubus).

The TWF with monkey grip while initially impressive doesn't exactly let me keep up later on; even with a party with monks and Paladins. Though thematically for what I had in mind it does work really well.


I think I see a potential problem here....

[toapat]

And Truenamer doesn't exactly fit with what I had in mind. I only brought it up because someone can build it and think they're going overboard with optimization to the point of being the strongest around and still fall flat on their ass. It's...technically real optimization of a poor class. I should've left it out.

what you are basically saying is you want a build that falls appart lategame.

Personal Experience says dont. my rogue in DDO is basically on the verge of falling appart, and seeing the impending doom is just a massive killer of motivation.

You really do want the "Logically unsound, Mechanically executable"


I think I see a potential problem here....

eh, only if Dynamic Priest/Lost Traditions is in play.

[Aliek]

Hmmmm how about something with a lot of attacks per turn? Seems decent enough, I think!

Dragonwrought Kobold with that web enhancement(2 claws+1 bite attack), totemist, with threefold mask of the chimera and those two dragon dragon soulmelds(dragon tail, claws of the wyrm) and shape the chaos roc's span (Dragon #350) for a million or so hits at lv4(Should be 13 if all your attacks are ruled to stack). Most are hitting for 1d3+2 or so, but still, 13 hits!

Or with monk you could add an unarmed sequence before your natural attacks, with flurry and whirling frenzy(pounce dip, so you can attack with all your attacks every turn, of course) for an extra 3 hits, tough you'd have to change the threefold mask to girallon arms.

Then cry as you find a monster with DR 5/Magic :smallbiggrin:

[eggynack]

It's more than just competency when you start stacking a lot of size bonuses. You can start one shotting a lot of foes and it pretty much becomes real optimization, only slightly worse.

Really depends on how one defines competence, I would suspect.

[Story]

Then cry as you find a monster with DR 5/Magic

Or laugh, if you have a DFI Bard in the party. Or good Knowledge Devotion.

[Sith_Happens]

So, here's (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Theurge_of_Charisma_(3.5e_Optimized_Character_Buil d)) a page that's come up on google a few times for me. It seems relevant.

I literally couldn't close my mouth for at least two minutes after reading that. Favored Soul/Warmage/Mystic Theurge. AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHH--


Guys, we all know the best druid is an Urskan who wild shapes into a black bear, while summoning black bears and riding his brown bear Animal Companion.

This could work. The "bear riding a bear summoning bears" image of the Druid is pretty well-known and yet probably low-mid-op at best. Though from an IC perspective such a build wouldn't nearly as likely emerge from a desire to optimize as it would from a desire for an excuse to speak entirely in bear puns.


For starters wouldn't the DFA fit in with the Warlock for the very same reasons? Even if nothing could ever survive unlimited ranged touch attacks!. DFA also lacks the potential cheese from imbue item.

1. Warlock is far more ubiquitous than DFA.

2. Warlock gets DR/cold iron, Energy Resistance, and Fast Healing, which puts you well on your way to being an unkillable beast and is certainly better than the DR/magic and piddly natural armor that the DFA gets.

3. You want Imbue Item for this concept so you can proceed to not use it because crafting is for suckers and NPCs. Every XP you spend crafting an item is one XP closer to next level that you could have been, and it's not like you don't get plenty of loot already.

[TiaC]

I literally couldn't close my mouth for at least two minutes after reading that. Favored Soul/Warmage/Mystic Theurge. AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHH--

I like the guy on the talk page who argues that unless someone playtests the build, they can't say it should be deleted.




This could work. The "bear riding a bear summoning bears" image of the Druid is pretty well-known and yet probably low-mid-op at best. Though from an IC perspective such a build wouldn't nearly as likely emerge from a desire to optimize as it would from a desire for an excuse to speak entirely in bear puns.

Low-mid-op, but low-mid-op for a druid. It's still a very powerful build.

[Marlowe]

I like the guy on the talk page who argues that unless someone playtests the build, they can't say it should be deleted.

.

I like it when he says "hooray for Elven Chain!". Because apparently he hasn't looked at a Mithral breastplate.

Anyway, how about Earth Shugenja/Dread Necromancer Theurge going into Sacred Exorcist? Totally Cha based, fluffy, and needlessly complicated.

[Zombulian]

So, here's (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Theurge_of_Charisma_(3.5e_Optimized_Character_Buil d)) a page that's come up on google a few times for me. It seems relevant.

You could also go with far too much LA. Half-Dragon-Half-Celestial-Half-Orc anyone? Then take tiny dips in a bunch of classes, making sure that some have conflicting alignments.

That's another thing! Make sure to do things that require severe backstory contortions. Then, badly justify them. E.g. for a game like this I wanted to get a Phaerimm into Shadowcraft Mage. So, I had his human parent polymorph into a Phaerimm and reproduce. This allowed him to take Human Heritage, thereby qualifying for stoneblessed, which allowed me to count as a gnome.

Use double weapons! I remember my first character wielding an orc double axe. Take Improved Toughness, because it's so much better. Whirlwind Attack must be awesome, right? Make a Dex Fighter, Dex adds to so much more! Overvalue BAB and take Spellsword 10!

http://forums.watchuseek.com/attachments/f17/1470060d1398435803-casio-intoduces-first-gps-enabled-g-shock-gpw-1000-dr-evil-air-quotes-laser.jpg

[mouser9169]

As a DM I made an NPC of many level 1 classes once.

Let me see if I can remember how it went - He started life blessed by the gods (favored soul), but quickly was turned off by religion (went to warlock), then discovered he had other arcane talents (sorcerer). All this renewed his faith (cleric), and he decided to study magic (wizard), but grew bored. He went into the wilderness to find himself (druid).

When the party met him he was supporting himself as a wandering minstrel (bard).

I know I'm missing one or two classes, but that was the gist of it, anyway.
Sure he couldn't cast the most powerful spells, but he had a lot of them.


For fake optimization the first thing that jumped to mind is a sorcerer picking a prestige class that doesn't include caster level so he'll be more "surviveable" or "well rounded" or something.

[TiaC]

For fake optimization the first thing that jumped to mind is a sorcerer picking a prestige class that doesn't include caster level so he'll be more "surviveable" or "well rounded" or something.


The classic Dragon Disciple gish is this.

[The Glyphstone]

Count another vote for Warlock. It's far less powerful than it looks (barring Hellfire Naberius cheese), but it's still a somewhat versatile chassis that can be above-mediocre and very, very reliable.

[mouser9169]

The classic Dragon Disciple gish is this.

Yeah... I remember doing sorcerer 1/dragon disciple 10/fighter xx in Neverwinter Nights... :smalleek:

Something with sneak attack - blackguard or assassin maybe - might work out ok with a ray based build.
Ray of Frost of Death...

[CIDE]

Better yet: Ninja.


I think I see a potential problem here....

It's an OOTS style joke game. There is no problem.



You really do want the "Logically unsound, Mechanically executable"



I guess. But what exactly would you lump into this category out of what's already been mentioned?


Hmmmm how about something with a lot of attacks per turn? Seems decent enough, I think!

Dragonwrought Kobold with that web enhancement(2 claws+1 bite attack), totemist, with threefold mask of the chimera and those two dragon dragon soulmelds(dragon tail, claws of the wyrm) and shape the chaos roc's span (Dragon #350) for a million or so hits at lv4(Should be 13 if all your attacks are ruled to stack). Most are hitting for 1d3+2 or so, but still, 13 hits!

Or with monk you could add an unarmed sequence before your natural attacks, with flurry and whirling frenzy(pounce dip, so you can attack with all your attacks every turn, of course) for an extra 3 hits, tough you'd have to change the threefold mask to girallon arms.

Then cry as you find a monster with DR 5/Magic :smallbiggrin:

I'm not a huge fan (mostly due to my lack of knowledge) for the soulmeld stuff. I'm just not that familiar and if I went with a natural weapons build I'd use Warshaper.

also, as already mentioned no monks. I have an unarmed build (or several) in mind but there's already waaayyy too much of that in party.




1. Warlock is far more ubiquitous than DFA.

2. Warlock gets DR/cold iron, Energy Resistance, and Fast Healing, which puts you well on your way to being an unkillable beast and is certainly better than the DR/magic and piddly natural armor that the DFA gets.

3. You want Imbue Item for this concept so you can proceed to not use it because crafting is for suckers and NPCs. Every XP you spend crafting an item is one XP closer to next level that you could have been, and it's not like you don't get plenty of loot already.

And now the question of a suitable race and/or prestige classes to fit the theme.

[toapat]

I guess. But what exactly would you lump into this category out of what's already been mentioned?

The druid suggestion which wasnt ignoring all of the growth your classfeatures experience would fit under that.

Spellthief is the poster child of logically unsound. They are built around stripping power from the Tier 1 classes, which at the upper limits of PO doesnt work. However your party composition isnt condusive to supporting a spellthief.

Anything Mystic Theurge not involving druid. With either Archivist/Academic Priest Cleric + Wizard or Sorcerer+Favoredsoul they can be done effectively. its only TO where you need Alternative spellsource. you dont want regular cleric + Wizard because you really dont want those issues, and you can justify it in that "it gets me the most spellslots". or Healer (with Dynamic priest)/Warmage. The only challenge is not going for the great spells. However i would advise the WIzard versions simply out of potential need to convert to God Wizard to help the rest of the party out if you eclipse them. Both of this and the druid requires careful management of your effectiveness however.

Warlock and Dragonfire Adept are usable.

Ninja or Knight are probably options as well. Might throw Battledancer 1/Paladin X/A few PRCs into the mix as well.

Battledancer 1/Paladin 5/Fist of Raziel 7/Ruby Knight Vindicator 7 could also work. Although IMHO it loses too many spellslots though.