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CyberThread
2014-08-08, 10:55 PM
Besides action surge abuse (which is the new fighters two feat dip , any combos starting to show up in your folks eyes?

Yuukale
2014-08-08, 11:32 PM
IMHO Rogue 3 to get double proficiency on skills, extra action to hide and auto-crit on surprise round? (depending on your build, rogue 4 to get you an ability bonus/feat)

1of3
2014-08-08, 11:58 PM
Paladin 2 for Divine Smite
Barbarian 1 for rage.

T.G. Oskar
2014-08-09, 01:46 AM
Bard 14 (College of Valor)/Paladin 6 (maybe Oath of Devotion).

Divine Smite might not be that hot, but with the Bard providing a larger spell list (on the multiclass spells per day table, you end up counting as a 17th level character; enough for one 9th level spell), you can use it for the most powerful Divine Smite ever, and also to stack up what few spells you end up getting access from the Paladin. Aura of Protection is insanely good, even if limited to 10 ft., and you end up with Charisma to all your ability scores; with the Oath of Devotion's Channel Divinity ability of Sacred Weapon, you add your Charisma to attack rolls as well. You also get the Paladin's available Fighting Styles, which will most likely involve Defense and Protection, and MAAAAAYBE Great Weapon Master, which completes...

...the College of Valor Bard's expertise on combat. College of Valor grants many things, including Extra Attack; since both classes grant Extra Attack, the benefit comes online by 8th level. Bard gets Expertise as per the Rogue, which can be applied to Athletics; that way, you get your nasty +12 to all Shove checks, and with only one of your attacks as well! Bard covers for your spells and skill proficiencies, making the overall build really powerful. Also, note that Bards are no longer limited to non-lawful and Paladins are no longer limited to Lawful Good only, so you could make it Neutral Good and make it work. You'll be using Charisma for just about EVERYTHING.

Another good combination? Hmm...maybe Ranger/Rogue. Rogue grants Expertise, Sneak Attack damage and more skills while Ranger grants Extra Attack (for when your Sneak Attack isn't enough), some spellcasting ability (including Hunter's Mark), Fighting Style and some other goodies. Ranger has to be higher than 8th, so it won't be as awesome as the Bard/Paladin. Also, Monk/Ranger: Extra Attack + Flurry of Blows; Stunning Strike, spells and a great amount of flexibility between unarmed attacks and ranged attacks with a Longbow. Also: no need for armor, ever (Dex + Wis + Barkskin = potentially up to 22 AC by 6th level, and lasting more than that of the Wizard).

Malifice
2014-08-09, 07:50 AM
Bard 14 (College of Valor)/Paladin 6 (maybe Oath of Devotion).

Divine Smite might not be that hot, but with the Bard providing a larger spell list (on the multiclass spells per day table, you end up counting as a 17th level character; enough for one 9th level spell), you can use it for the most powerful Divine Smite ever, and also to stack up what few spells you end up getting access from the Paladin.

Divine smite caps out at 5th level. Has this chaged?


...the College of Valor Bard's expertise on combat. College of Valor grants many things, including Extra Attack; since both classes grant Extra Attack, the benefit comes online by 8th level.

Is this how extra attack works in the PHB?


Also: no need for armor, ever (Dex + Wis + Barkskin = potentially up to 22 AC by 6th level, and lasting more than that of the Wizard).

Barksin sets your AC at 16 (if it was lower). You don't add Unarmored defence to this figure. You take the better of the two values.

Jenckes
2014-08-09, 08:37 AM
@Malifice

No, extra attacks don't work that way. It specifically says so in the multiclassing section. The only way to get more than 2 attacks from the extra attack feature as per rules is to take 11 levels of fighter.

There are a few classes that grant bonus actions that involve taking an extra attack. Clerics of the war domain may take an bonus action to make an additional attack wisdom mod times per day, one of the barbarian paths can take an extra attack as a bonus action while raging, and monks get a bonus action to make an unarmed attack. Other than that there's two weapon fighting. Monk also gets flurry of blows at lvl 2 that allows them to make 2 unarmed attacks as a bonus action. But these are all bonus actions, so there's no way to stack them.

Multiclassing paladin/cleric sounds like a lot of fun to me. Though figuring out what levels of what is a bit of a headache. You pretty much have to switch levels right after your ability score increases. In that way level dipping for 2 levels takes a feat or a stat increase away. Which would be bad. You really want to stay in something for at least 4 levels, though if your in it for a martial class you want to stay for 5, which means staying through 8, unless your a fighter and can reasonably get out at 6.

I think multiclassing is very well scripted in this system. It allows for some interesting options (looking at you shadow monk/assassin rogue) but all in all it's incredibly tempting to just stay in your starting class. Which is kind of how it should be.

Malifice
2014-08-09, 08:56 AM
@Malifice

No, extra attacks don't work that way. It specifically says so in the multiclassing section. The only way to get more than 2 attacks from the extra attack feature as per rules is to take 11 levels of fighter.

Yeah figured as much. Dont have the PHB on front of me (In Oz so another week to wait). Most of my multiclass combos arent getting 'extra attack till around 8th level (including my Barbarian /ighter)


Multiclassing paladin/cleric sounds like a lot of fun to me. Though figuring out what levels of what is a bit of a headache. You pretty much have to switch levels right after your ability score increases. In that way level dipping for 2 levels takes a feat or a stat increase away. Which would be bad. You really want to stay in something for at least 4 levels, though if your in it for a martial class you want to stay for 5, which means staying through 8, unless your a fighter and can reasonably get out at 6.

Ive got a LE Cleric of Bane (Paladin/ Cleric/ Fighter) build that is pulling of some nice DPR. Divine Smite (6d8) plus an extra 1d8 from Cleric plus great weapon fighter feat. Extra attack plus (Wisdom) bonus attacks for 3 attacks a round. Gains an extra one due to Great weapon fighting on a Crit. I went Fighter 2 (action surge) Paladin 6 (Cha to saves) Cleric 12 (CL 15 in total).

I'm unsure if the Great Weapon Fighter style (which lets you reroll 1's and 2's) applies to rider effects on the weapon (such as smite).

Also have a Barbarian 3/ Fighter 17 that is working really well. Heavy armor master + Bear totem Barbarian for (resistance to all damage AND -3). Online 2 times a day by 4th level.

7th level feat (Barb 3/ Ftr 4) is great weapon mastery

Core shtick is rage + advantage to all (great weapon) power attacks/ rage damage. So you rarely miss even with the -5 to hit. Spam massive damage. Foes get advantage against you, however you're halving all damage (and then subtracting 3). With a High Con, Heavy armor, huge Hit Dice, high HP and Second Wind you never go down.

Only needs Str and Con.


I think multiclassing is very well scripted in this system. It allows for some interesting options (looking at you shadow monk/assassin rogue) but all in all it's incredibly tempting to just stay in your starting class. Which is kind of how it should be.

Im struggling to come up with a concept that cant be adequately represented by the options available to 1st level characters. I cant really think of any!

Tholomyes
2014-08-09, 09:18 AM
I'm unsure if the Great Weapon Fighter style (which lets you reroll 1's and 2's) applies to rider effects on the weapon (such as smite).I don't think that was the intent, and I, personally, would not rule that it would, at my table. RAW, it's arguable (depending on how you read the way the damage gets added), and it's not helped by the insistence on natural language, but I don't think RAW is all that important as in 3e and 4e, due to the way 5e is written up in natural language.

Granted, I'll have to look at what it does to such a character's damage; I'd consider it, if it doesn't end up outdamaging an equal level fighter, but I don't want the Great weapon style to become "Find any way to pick up all the damage dice you can"


Im struggling to come up with a concept that cant be adequately represented by the options available to 1st level characters. I cant really think of any!Well, there are a few I can think of, because their subclass doesn't come online until level 3, or because they require a feat (yes, you could be a human, but if the concept revolves around a specific race, that doesn't solve much), but since "apprentice tier" goes by fairly quickly, I'll give it to you.

Jenckes
2014-08-09, 09:26 AM
Great weapon fighting is a great question. I looked it up assuming it'd say weapon dice since they already use that terminology when referring to critical hits, but it does not say that. As a DM I would say that the rules are intended to mean weapon dice, but I'll give you RAW it could go either way. Though no min maxer in his/her right mind would take something other than great weapon fighting as a paladin if that's how it works.

As for the barbarian fighter- yeah. All of that. I was looking at a similar build. I think right now my mind is kind of stuck on the idea of shadow stepping behind an opponent and using the advantage to get the sneak attack dice rolling. Though that damage is only 57 on average, only getting sneak attack dice on the first hit may be balanced but it's also way boring. Way lower than what a straight fighter could expect to do on an action surge (108ish).

Malifice
2014-08-09, 09:27 AM
I don't think that was the intent, and I, personally, would not rule that it would, at my table. RAW, it's arguable (depending on how you read the way the damage gets added), and it's not helped by the insistence on natural language, but I don't think RAW is all that important as in 3e and 4e, due to the way 5e is written up in natural language.

Granted, I'll have to look at what it does to such a character's damage; I'd consider it, if it doesn't end up outdamaging an equal level fighter, but I don't want the Great weapon style to become "Find any way to pick up all the damage dice you can"

Yeah, the wording isnt clear.

The bonus dice from smite clearly double on a Crit though (for same reasons sneak attack does).

Applying that logic, it appears as if GWF also applies to bonus dice from smite. Could read it either way though I guess.


Well, there are a few I can think of, because their subclass doesn't come online until level 3, or because they require a feat (yes, you could be a human, but if the concept revolves around a specific race, that doesn't solve much), but since "apprentice tier" goes by fairly quickly, I'll give it to you.

Such as? Even 'Warrior mage' comes online at 1st level with Blade Pact Warlocks.

Malifice
2014-08-09, 09:32 AM
Great weapon fighting is a great question. I looked it up assuming it'd say weapon dice since they already use that terminology when referring to critical hits, but it does not say that. As a DM I would say that the rules are intended to mean weapon dice, but I'll give you RAW it could go either way. Though no min maxer in his/her right mind would take something other than great weapon fighting as a paladin if that's how it works.

Good point. It does seem to invalidate any other fighting style if allowed.

Im going to rule that it doesnt.

As for the barbarian fighter- yeah. All of that. I was looking at a similar build. I think right now my mind is kind of stuck on the idea of shadow stepping behind an opponent and using the advantage to get the sneak attack dice rolling. Though that damage is only 57 on average, only getting sneak attack dice on the first hit may be balanced but it's also way boring. Way lower than what a straight fighter could expect to do on an action surge (108ish).[/QUOTE]

Barbarian 2/ Rogue x

Advantage/ Sneak attack every single round via Reckless attack. Use a finesse weapon, just apply your Strength Mod.

Malifice
2014-08-09, 10:27 AM
Can anyone see any valid reason NOT to go Fighter 2/ Caster xx from a gamist perspective?

The nova strike payoff of blast/blast or SOD/SOD (putting aside the bonus HP and heavy armor proficiency) is just too good.

hawklost
2014-08-09, 11:03 AM
Can anyone see any valid reason NOT to go Fighter 2/ Caster xx from a gamist perspective?

The nova strike payoff of blast/blast or SOD/SOD (putting aside the bonus HP and heavy armor proficiency) is just too good.

To get the heavy Armor you would have to start as a Fighter
Have 13 Str Or Dex and 13 Int (not too hard there)
Your extra HP would consist of 6 extra on average (10 vs 6 first level and 5.5 vs 3.5 second)
You lose our on 1 lvl 6 and 1 lvl 7 spell slot a day
You lose out on 4 Spells Known that are most likely your highest levels
You lose an ability score improvement
You lose Signature Spell, which is losing 2 3rd level spells a day

You gain a 1d10+2 healing between rests
You gain Fighting Style which would most likely be Defense
You gain 1 Action surge a day
-----------------------------
You are probably better off going Cleric 2 (Life, Nature, Tempest, War)/Wizard 18 in my opinion

You get Heavy Armor even if you choose Cleric (with those domains) for last 2 levels instead of being forced to take them first level
Need 13 Wis and 13 Int
Extra HP is average of 2 (or 3 if Cleric is first level)
You keep your max total slots
You lose out on 4 Spells known that are most likely your highest levels still
You lose an ability Score improvement Stil
You lose Signature Spell, which is losing 2 3rd level spells a day Still

You gain Cleric Cantrips and spells (can be healing spells)
You gain Channel Divinity (Turn undead)
You gain a domain feature
You gain Channel Divinity (Based on Domain)

Malifice
2014-08-09, 11:22 AM
To get the heavy Armor you would have to start as a Fighter

Yep. Start as a Fighter (mad not to). Increased survivability at 1st level with armor, second wind and d10 (max) HD.

After 300 xp take your wizard level.

Extra advantage of starting as a fighter is you add Perception as a class skill, and proficiency in Con saves (for concentraion checks)


You lose our on 1 lvl 6 and 1 lvl 7 spell slot a day
You lose out on 4 Spells Known that are most likely your highest levels
You lose an ability score improvement
You lose Signature Spell, which is losing 2 3rd level spells a day

You gain 18 levels of playing with action surge nova strikes 1/ every short rest. Not once a day. Once per short rest.


You are probably better off going Cleric 2 (Life, Nature, Tempest, War)/Wizard 18 in my opinion

You get Heavy Armor even if you choose Cleric (with those domains) for last 2 levels instead of being forced to take them first level
Need 13 Wis and 13 Int
Extra HP is average of 2 (or 3 if Cleric is first level)
You keep your max total slots
You lose out on 4 Spells known that are most likely your highest levels still
You lose an ability Score improvement Stil
You lose Signature Spell, which is losing 2 3rd level spells a day Still

You gain Cleric Cantrips and spells (can be healing spells)
You gain Channel Divinity (Turn undead)
You gain a domain feature
You gain Channel Divinity (Based on Domain)

But you will only know the 1st level cleric spells though. Youre trading power for versatility. Are there any good 1st level Cleric spells worth plundering? Do you really want to be spending your spell slots on Cure spells?

Fighter 2 is trading very little for a very big increase in power.

Fireball/ Fireball (basic combo online from 7th level) is an encounter smasher. As is targetting a weak save twice in a round.

With one short rest per 3-4 encounters, thats a marked spike in power for very little lost.

Prophet_of_Io
2014-08-09, 03:36 PM
Does 11 levels into fighter count as a dip?

T.G. Oskar
2014-08-09, 08:00 PM
Divine smite caps out at 5th level. Has this chaged?

No idea, honestly, but even if it does, you still have access to decent spellcasting. That's almost as good, if not better, than Divine Smite in that regard.


Is this how extra attack works in the PHB?


@Malifice

No, extra attacks don't work that way. It specifically says so in the multiclassing section. The only way to get more than 2 attacks from the extra attack feature as per rules is to take 11 levels of fighter.

I was referring to Jenckes' concept. A Bard/Paladin multiclass, with the Bard taking College of Valor (hence, BOTH having access to Extra Attack) at 3rd, would get its second attack at 8th level, as per the multiclassing rules, with only the order of levels mattering (Bard 3/Paladin 5, or Bard 3+x/Paladin 5-x). I didn't suggest any third attack at all, only the two attacks, meaning the character could take only 6 levels of Paladin and still get its extra attack by virtue of the Bard subclass providing access as well.


Barksin sets your AC at 16 (if it was lower). You don't add Unarmored defence to this figure. You take the better of the two values.

Hmm, figured Barkskin would have remained as per the playtest (+2 to AC). It apparently works like Mage Armor now, but somewhat different.