What is the best class?

[Sasori]

What is the best class for 4 man groups and to make it fun best class for solo play Player handbook 1-3 For my anwser i would say prolly Ranger ranged beacuse of multistrike :P.

[NecroRebel]

The general consensus is that a 4-man party is best off with one member from each role, and that the best striker is a Ranger, the best controller is a Wizard, the best defender is a Fighter, and the best leader is either a Cleric or a Warlord (in different ways; Clerics are better healers, but Warlords buff better). They're probably best off with a melee Ranger and polearm Warlord, actually, so the Fighter and Ranger can flank together and the Warlord can give them extra attacks. Ranged Rangers do not have significantly better multistrike capability than melee Rangers do, as they'd focus all their attacks on the same target the vast majority of the time.

[Kurald Galain]

Here you go. Note that this varies a bit with what books are available, and it varies a lot with player skill. NOTE that differences are more pronounced at higher levels, and are mostly negligible at low heroic tier. Finally, note that a class's effectiveness is unrelaed to how fun it is; e.g. the ranger is generally held to be fairly boring to play, even if it's the best striker in the books.

S: Fighter, Ranger, Warlord, Wizard
A: Artificer, Barbarian, Bard, Elementalist, Invoker, Paladin, Rogue, Swordmage, Warlock
B: Ardent, Avenger, Battlemind, Berserker, Cleric, Druid, Monk, Psion, Runepriest, Scout, Shaman, Skald, Slayer, Sorcerer, Thief, Warden
C: Assassin, Blackguard, Executioner, Hexblade, Hunter, Knight, Protector, Seeker
F: Binder, Bladesinger, Cavalier, Sentinel, Vampire

[Kimera757]

What is the best class for 4 man groups and to make it fun best class for solo play Player handbook 1-3 For my anwser i would say prolly Ranger ranged beacuse of multistrike :P.

There is no best answer.

I would be leery of saying the ranger. It's very good at the striker role, and for the archer ranger good at its complete role, but ... it's kind of boring. Our ranger player jokes that all his encounter powers are the same... slightly different versions of Twin Strikes that deal a bit more damage than Twin Strike.

[GPuzzle]

Personally, Knight is a pretty good defender, not like a Fighter or a Swordmage, but Defend the Line with Overwhelming Impact is pretty darn scary.

For solo play, Bard. Silly? Yes. But you can get enemies to become helpless with ease and you can poach Twin Strike by being a Half-Elf and dual-wielding Bastard Swords.

Just remember to MC Invoker and Wizard.

[Gracht Grabmaw]

For solo -play the barbarian, for group-play three barbarians and a camel, so the barbarians have something to carry all the treasure.

[Sasori]

Now would a ranged ranger be tanky enough to survive byhimself

[Tvtyrant]

Probably Wizard, it can fill the most archetypes (good striker, best controller.)

[tcrudisi]

That question varies by the level you expect to play at. For example, if you want to play from 1-10, Ranger would be one of the last strikers I would pick.

Party-optimization also plays a huge role in determining the "best class" for 4-man groups. For example, something like 4 ardents could tear up a battlefield in no time if they are all the appropriate level and optimized properly. Four rangers could do almost as well under the same conditions, though is far more prone to the enemies spike damage. The problem those two groups suffer from "same ability scores" when it comes to skill checks. Taking 4 of the same race can also trivialize many challenges. Changeling isn't considered a top race, but if you have a whole party of Changelings who are at least Cha-secondary? The DM will struggle to challenge that party except for in combat.

But if you are talking a generic "1 of each role, from 1-30, all skills covered", then I'm not going to give it much thought, but the basic would probably be Wizard, Fighter, Rogue, Cleric. Warlord would be a better fit for combat, but this group covers all the important bases: Cleric takes the Wis skills and is a solid leader, Wizard covers the Int skills and is a terrific leader, Rogue covers the Dex/Cha skills and is a great striker, and Fighter covers Athleticism and Endurance and is a great defender. There's plenty of ranged power in this party too, with 3/4 being able to reliably do ranged attacks. 3/4 are also able to do melee. It's well-rounded with no real weakness.

For solo play, you need a class that can heal itself, have good (great not required, but good is) defenses, and do some good damage. I would probably take a look at a Cleric|Barbarian hybrid for solo play. Ability to heal multiple times in an encounter? Check (just take a utility power or two to make up for the 1/enc hybrid heal). Ability to do great damage? Check. Good defenses? No - great defenses. Defender level AC which is banging for a solo class. The weakness? Ranged powers ... which this class could go Wis secondary and take a ranged at-will from Cleric so that it can do ranged. Its not great at it, but it can do it, so that's something.

[Sol]

Kurald's tier list is mostly useless in my opinion, given how greatly power, feat, item, and tactical choices affect your efficacy. The only thing worth taking away from it is a tendency to avoid the ones listed as Fs.

Though even then, there is a single bladesinger build that's both really entertaining and fairly decent (The generator).

[Surrealistik]

Kurald's tier list is mostly useless in my opinion, given how greatly power, feat, item, and tactical choices affect your efficacy. The only thing worth taking away from it is a tendency to avoid the ones listed as Fs.

Though even then, there is a single bladesinger build that's both really entertaining and fairly decent (The generator).

I wouldn't say it's useless, it's a decent and fairly accurate guideline, but it is flawed. The list also varies depending on optimization level (including truly high level optimization where the Ranger is actually surpassed as a striker by the Battlemind and Sorcerer. That said I do think practical optimization should be the basis for forming rankings), and tier (Elementalist is indisputably S tier during Heroic).

[Laserlight]

"The Monks of Cool, whose tiny and exclusive monastery is hidden in a really cool and laid-back valley in the lower Ramtops, have a passing-out test for a novice. He is taken into a room full of all types of clothing characters and asked: Yo, my son, which of these is the most stylish thing to wear best class to play? And the correct answer is: Hey, whatever I select."
--Sir Terry Pratchett, Lords and Ladies
(slightly edited)

[GPuzzle]

10/10 would read again

[Darth Paul]

"The Monks of Cool, whose tiny and exclusive monastery is hidden in a really cool and laid-back valley in the lower Ramtops, have a passing-out test for a novice. He is taken into a room full of all types of clothing characters and asked: Yo, my son, which of these is the most stylish thing to wear best class to play? And the correct answer is: Hey, whatever I select."
--Sir Terry Pratchett, Lords and Ladies
(slightly edited)

So, your answer is Monk? :smallcool:

I didn't know they had those in 4e.

[GPuzzle]

So, your answer is Monk? :smallcool:

I didn't know they had those in 4e.

Yup, and they're pretty awesome. Very mobile and deal damage in area. Pretty tough to take down, too.

[masteraleph]

Adding to Kurald Galain- there are hybrid builds that can outclass Fighters as defenders and can equal the top Wizards as Controllers. I think Rangers are still tops for Striker, though, and Warlords for leader, though in Epic bards can pass them.

[GPuzzle]

Nope, Ranger loses to Battlemind abusing Brilliant Recovery+Firewind Blade.

[masteraleph]

Nope, Ranger loses to Battlemind abusing Brilliant Recovery+Firewind Blade.

I'll take your word for it; I haven't actually run the numbers. Fighter loses to Battlemind|Paladin and Swordmage|Warlock if they're built properly, while the very best of Wizards are more or less tied by Invoker|Clerics.

[GPuzzle]

Be a Revenant and up your saves to get 2 minor actions+2 move actions, use Radiant One and Morninglord, use a Firewind Blade, and miss with the first attack of BB.

Bam. 6 attacks every round.

Oh, and Bard|Ardent/War Chanter with Sidhe Lord beats Warlord.

[Kurald Galain]

While I acknowledge that certain "uber" builds exist, the issue is that almost all of these either (1) require epic tier, whereas most campaigns start in heroic and never get to epic; and/or (2) require rules interpretations that are either dodgy or known cheese, and as a result likely to be vetoed by the DM.

Therefore I don't find such builds a useful answer to the question of "what is the best class".



Adding to Kurald Galain- there are hybrid builds that can outclass Fighters as defenders and can equal the top Wizards as Controllers. I think Rangers are still tops for Striker, though, and Warlords for leader, though in Epic bards can pass them.
True. I find that hybrids are all over the place in terms of tier. Most hybrids are probably B tier or lower; but there are definite exceptions to that.

[masteraleph]

While I acknowledge that certain "uber" builds exist, the issue is that almost all of these either (1) require epic tier, whereas most campaigns start in heroic and never get to epic; and/or (2) require rules interpretations that are either dodgy or known cheese, and as a result likely to be vetoed by the DM.

Therefore I don't find such builds a useful answer to the question of "what is the best class".



True. I find that hybrids are all over the place in terms of tier. Most hybrids are probably B tier or lower; but there are definite exceptions to that.

Absolutely agreed. The ones I highlighted all hit their stride in Paragon or earlier, and don't particularly use dodgy rules interpretation (unless you have an issue with Dizzying Mace and a Mace used as an implement- that would be a problem for Invoker|Cleric, but it's a pretty clear RAW interpretation). Battlemind|Paladin basically just fixes Battleminds by giving them a melee basic attack that's good and mass marking, in addition to doubling on punishment types, while Swordmage|Warlock fixes Swordmages by giving them an MBA and adding the whole host of Curse feats. It's kind of astounding, actually, how many classes benefit from hybriding simply because they aren't strength based and want a solid MBA.

[Sol]

Or because they're already str-based and want better armor (BCL)