Duke of Urrel
2014-08-08, 11:58 PM
There seems to be a discrepancy in the rules between what the Freedom spell requires to succeed and what the Discern Location spell requires to succeed when your purpose is to liberate a creature that has been entombed in a secret location underground by the Imprisonment spell. Here are the passages that confuse me.
From the description of the Imprisonment spell on page 244 of the Player's Handbook:
When you cast imprisonment and touch a creature, it is entombed in a state of suspended animation (see the temporal stasis spell) far beneath the surface of the earth. The subject remains there unless a freedom spell is cast at the locale where the imprisonment took place. Magical search by a crystal ball, a locate object spell, or some other similar divination does not reveal the fact that a creature is imprisoned, but discern location does.
Several things are unclear about this passage.
Firstly, why should I use a Crystal Ball or the Locate Object spell to reveal the fact that a creature has been imprisoned? Wouldn't this fact more likely be revealed by one's own observation of a creature suddenly vanishing at the touch of an arcane spellcaster, followed by a successful Spellcraft check to identify the Imprisonment spell, or perhaps followed by a successful Knowledge of Arcana check to guess that this spell may be the cause of the creature's sudden disappearance? And if I did not personally witness this event and I have no eyewitness report of it, wouldn't a spell like Legend Lore or Vision be more likely to reveal the "locale where the imprisonment took place" than the Discern Location spell?
Secondly, why would I even bother using the Locate Object spell to locate a creature? And why would I use it to locate the place where a creature vanished? Is this place somehow an object?
Thirdly, how can the Discern Location spell reveal the fact that a creature has been imprisoned? Here is what the spell does, according to its own description on page 222 of the Player's Handbook:
The spell reveals the name of the creature or object's location (place, name, business name, building name, or the like), community, county (or similar political division), county (or similar political division), country, continent, and the plane of existence where the target lies.
To find a creature with the spell, you must have seen the creature or have some item that once belonged to it.
According to this passage, the Discern Location spell reveals a creature's present location. So it should reveal the location of the underground tomb in which a creature is presently imprisoned (including its exact depth underground, I suppose), but not the place where an arcane spellcaster banished the creature to this tomb by touching it.
Not even the Wish spell or the Miracle spell seems to provide the information you really need. According to the description of the Imprisonment spell on page 244 of the Player's Handbook:
A wish or miracle spell will not free the recipient, but will reveal where it is entombed.
But I don't want to know there the creature is entombed! I want to know the place from which it was banished by an arcane spellcaster who cast the Imprisonment spell. This is what you need to know in order to use the Freedom spell to liberate the imprisoned creature. Here's the key passage from this spell's description on page 233 of the Player's Handbook.
To free a creature from imprisonment or maze, you must know its name and background, and you must cast this spell [the Freedom spell] at the spot where it was entombed or banished into the maze.
Discovering the exact location of the tomb in which a creature has been magically imprisoned seems to be a pointless exercise. What you really need to know is the creature's "name and background," and then you need to discover the place where the creature had that unfortunate encounter with the arcane spellcaster who banished it using the Imprisonment spell.
This concludes my tale of confusion. Now, I beseech you, expert gamers of the Playground. How do you interpret the rules so that they make sense? It seems that the game designers intended the Discern Location spell, or its equivalent (perhaps the Wish or Miracle spell used to duplicate this spell), to provide the information that you need in order to use the Freedom spell to liberate a creature that was entombed by the Imprisonment spell. But how, exactly, does this happen? More importantly, how do you believe it should happen?
Postscript: I admit that my concerns here have a lot to do with fluff. You may well ask: Why should I bother wondering how the rules work in detail? All a player needs to know, in terms of crunch, is: Discern Location spell plus Freedom spell equals reversal of Imprisonment spell.
Here's what I'm concerned about, as a dungeon master: These are powerful spells, and in adventures designed for mid-level players, they should be used in climactic situations involving high-level characters or dangerous monsters. But in order to build up to this kind of climax, I need to be able to imagine, in detail, how these three spells work, and I need to be consistent. This is what I'm after.
From the description of the Imprisonment spell on page 244 of the Player's Handbook:
When you cast imprisonment and touch a creature, it is entombed in a state of suspended animation (see the temporal stasis spell) far beneath the surface of the earth. The subject remains there unless a freedom spell is cast at the locale where the imprisonment took place. Magical search by a crystal ball, a locate object spell, or some other similar divination does not reveal the fact that a creature is imprisoned, but discern location does.
Several things are unclear about this passage.
Firstly, why should I use a Crystal Ball or the Locate Object spell to reveal the fact that a creature has been imprisoned? Wouldn't this fact more likely be revealed by one's own observation of a creature suddenly vanishing at the touch of an arcane spellcaster, followed by a successful Spellcraft check to identify the Imprisonment spell, or perhaps followed by a successful Knowledge of Arcana check to guess that this spell may be the cause of the creature's sudden disappearance? And if I did not personally witness this event and I have no eyewitness report of it, wouldn't a spell like Legend Lore or Vision be more likely to reveal the "locale where the imprisonment took place" than the Discern Location spell?
Secondly, why would I even bother using the Locate Object spell to locate a creature? And why would I use it to locate the place where a creature vanished? Is this place somehow an object?
Thirdly, how can the Discern Location spell reveal the fact that a creature has been imprisoned? Here is what the spell does, according to its own description on page 222 of the Player's Handbook:
The spell reveals the name of the creature or object's location (place, name, business name, building name, or the like), community, county (or similar political division), county (or similar political division), country, continent, and the plane of existence where the target lies.
To find a creature with the spell, you must have seen the creature or have some item that once belonged to it.
According to this passage, the Discern Location spell reveals a creature's present location. So it should reveal the location of the underground tomb in which a creature is presently imprisoned (including its exact depth underground, I suppose), but not the place where an arcane spellcaster banished the creature to this tomb by touching it.
Not even the Wish spell or the Miracle spell seems to provide the information you really need. According to the description of the Imprisonment spell on page 244 of the Player's Handbook:
A wish or miracle spell will not free the recipient, but will reveal where it is entombed.
But I don't want to know there the creature is entombed! I want to know the place from which it was banished by an arcane spellcaster who cast the Imprisonment spell. This is what you need to know in order to use the Freedom spell to liberate the imprisoned creature. Here's the key passage from this spell's description on page 233 of the Player's Handbook.
To free a creature from imprisonment or maze, you must know its name and background, and you must cast this spell [the Freedom spell] at the spot where it was entombed or banished into the maze.
Discovering the exact location of the tomb in which a creature has been magically imprisoned seems to be a pointless exercise. What you really need to know is the creature's "name and background," and then you need to discover the place where the creature had that unfortunate encounter with the arcane spellcaster who banished it using the Imprisonment spell.
This concludes my tale of confusion. Now, I beseech you, expert gamers of the Playground. How do you interpret the rules so that they make sense? It seems that the game designers intended the Discern Location spell, or its equivalent (perhaps the Wish or Miracle spell used to duplicate this spell), to provide the information that you need in order to use the Freedom spell to liberate a creature that was entombed by the Imprisonment spell. But how, exactly, does this happen? More importantly, how do you believe it should happen?
Postscript: I admit that my concerns here have a lot to do with fluff. You may well ask: Why should I bother wondering how the rules work in detail? All a player needs to know, in terms of crunch, is: Discern Location spell plus Freedom spell equals reversal of Imprisonment spell.
Here's what I'm concerned about, as a dungeon master: These are powerful spells, and in adventures designed for mid-level players, they should be used in climactic situations involving high-level characters or dangerous monsters. But in order to build up to this kind of climax, I need to be able to imagine, in detail, how these three spells work, and I need to be consistent. This is what I'm after.