Feedback on a custom creature Welcome!!!!

[Johnngrimm]

I am currently running a campaign and all of the player are experienced and meta gaming all of the creatures I am throwing at them. To challenge the party I am creating a custom creature to challenge them. The party is currently level 9 with 4 players consisting of a Wizard, a Rouge/swordsage, a Druid, and a Crusader.


The creature is below

Elklion (Animal)

Hit dice: 12d8 +72 (126 hp)
Initiative: +4
AC: 22 (-1 size, +4dex, +9 natural), touch 13, flat-footed 18
Attacks: gore, 2 claw, bite
Damage: gore 2d8 +5, claw 1d6+10, bite 1d8+5
Face/Reach: 10ft/5ft
Special Attacks: pounce, rake 1d6 +5, improved grab
Special Qualities: low-light vision, scent
Saves: fort +14 ref +12 will +10
Abilities: str 31, dex 19, con 23, int 2, wis 14, cha 10
Skills: listen +6, spot +6, hide +4, move silently +4, hide +4
Feats: alertness, run, weapon Focus (claw), weapon focus (gore), track
Climate/Terrain:
Organization:
Challenge Rating: 9
Treasure: none
Alignment: neutral
Advancement: 13-21 HD (Large), 22-30 HD (huge)

This is my first draft of the creature and would like some feedback on making it more of a challenge to the party.

I originally posted this in a different thread found here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?365677-What-is-PEACH

[daremetoidareyo]

If metagaming is an issue, Constructs tend to still be a challenge, regardless. Especially if they don't have a plot derived weakness (like 2x damage from fire or whatnot). If casters are the problem, constructs that can use some sort of dimension door/ethereal jaunt during their move actions help put the party at significant risk. The Elklion would be quite a monster with a construct template added.

I see that you are using an animal. Is that druid going to bond with it? That fight might never happen.

Is this a big bad or a warning shot for the players? If it is a big bad of sorts, you are going to need additional critters to up the challenge for that crew. An Ogre 4-6th level Ranger with a ring of animal friendship, net and trident with the elklion acting as his/her companion? That's about CR 9/10 for the ogre and 13HD elklion for PCs who know what they're doing.

How does the creature's improved grab work? You can coat that entire creature in 3rd level babau slime (planar handbook), and whomever he grapples needs their gear to make saves against acid damage, all weapons used against it need to make a save against it too. What does he need to hit with to start the grapple?


Another problem that I've had to deal with is PCs memorizing resistances of like everything in the MM I-IV. Their characters just happen to guess the right spell or gear to use first try. I designed an anarchic disease centered on a gate to limbo for a quest that took all of the normal dungeon creatures and applied templates to them, at random every 2-5 rounds. I'm sure some see that as too much DM intervention, I view the player's behavior as cheating. The point of a story arc narrative is to have rising action, and I'll be damned if the PCs don't feel like john mcclane at the end the first diehard movie: nearly broken but successful. I'm not saying that they aren't allowed to get passed the obstacles by outsmarting me or the environment, but the characters have to do that with their in-character out-of-the-box thinking, not their out of character, reading all the boxes for metathinking.


The other way to change a battle's stakes is setting and terrain:

()Uneven 30 degrees to the parallel floor (climb, balance checks, slow movement)
()A mirror image of the bad guy who is behind an illusioned wall, in a hall that has a buttload of traps, PCs never worry about traps when the villain is in sight.
()A show down in a tiny room, only one or two squares for people to move, villain hold portals the door first round, trapping some of the others on the other side, at least for a round or a few.
()Gust of wind blowing directly at PCs entry point,
()Lame cronies hiding near the top of a chamber (like 30 feet up) armed with wands of Wall of Vermin or Engulfing Terror(CS and Drow of the underdark, respectively)(10 charges each, Caster level 10) and a wand of grease (caster level 10)(5 charges). While the Big bad has balance, and bluff, and tries to make it look like these powers are his and have nothing to do with the cronies hidden on craggy ledges (partial concealment).
()Fight on a narrow bridge, 80' up, villains attempt to knock PCS off with every attack.
()Underground fight that stirs up millions of bats, making everything miserable for everyone.
()Fight in a mansion. Cursed mirror dominates the nearest person within 15' to stare into the mirror and fix their hair and blemishes for 1d4 rounds, one person at a time, This effect is constant and after a person is released they are immune to the effects of the mirror again for 1 day. (DC 19)

[Carl]

Depends on he party, for it's CR the AC and Fort save are below average, but the damage is probably above average.

The biggest issue is that the Wizard can just use fly to get out of range and fireball it to death from a couple of hundred feat up. The fact that many other build options will work to decimate it are kinda irrelevant at that point.

Things that would help:

Spell Like Abilities, particularly Greater Dispel Magic, (with a CL = HD), A solid amount of DR, (say 15/Admantium), a solid amount of energy resistance to Fire, and Sonic, (main types at this level if your just using Core, i'd say 20 at a minimum), and some way of mitigating ability damage/drain and SoD/SoS spells.

[Debihuman]

I am currently running a campaign and all of the player are experienced and meta gaming all of the creatures I am throwing at them. To challenge the party I am creating a custom creature to challenge them. The party is currently level 9 with

Hi and Welcome to the Homebrew section. Feedback = PEACH so don't be afraid to use that in your title (contrary to what you've heard, it's not a neon sign for people to be jerks to you).

First, this is in 3.0 format so it helps to know whether you wanted to update to 3.5 or not. It's easy enough to do.

Rather than an Animal (and as a rule, Animals aren't all that challenging), you might want to consider changing this to a Magical Beast. For a level 9 party with lots of spellcasting ability, most animals are just big dumb brutes.

Don't look at just the numbers, get the niche this thing is supposed to play. If they are just hunting big game, this would be a good creature to throw at them, but you want to challenge them only you didn't specify how. This is pretty much just an advanced Lion. CR is about 5. There is no way this is CR 9, it has good enough HD but no defensive abilities and the party has lots of magic to throw at it. Lions (and most other Animals by extension) are good for lower level parties because they are a challenge when all the party is just facing brute strength.

If all you want is for them to go big game hunting, this is what you've created. I'm not sure that's much of a challenge unless you have a specific scenario in mind where the party is challenged more by limited resources rather than the creature they'll be hunting. Is it for sport? Is it for a contest to see who can kill one fastest? There are lots of ways to challenge a party with this creature but we need more information.

The main drawback to this creature is that the party can hit it from a distance. It has no ranged attacks and no real defenses. That makes it difficult to challenge a CR 9 party (esp. one with 2 spellcasters).

You didn't put in any description so I can't judge to see if the stat block does what you want it to do.

One of the ways to spice this up is to give the antlers reach. This means it can't use its bite and claws with a gore but it can target creatures farther away.

Here is how it would look in 3.5. It has 15 skill points to use (and then you add modifiers and synergy bonuses). I assume that it also gains the same skill bonuses that a normal lion has: +4 racial bonus on Balance, Hide and Move Silently. BTW you listed Hide twice so perhaps the first Hide was supposed to be Balance? If so, then you've only used of its 14 of its 15 skill points. You also haven't calculated for ability modifiers and synergy.

Ecologically these are difficult. Lionesses hunt (male lions of a pride are not the hunters). Also, having antlers usually means that their prey can spot them more easily. This also conflicts with the fact that normal lions have a Bonus to Hide in tall grass. Form follows function so your stat block should match how the creature behaves.

Here is the updated stat block. FYI this is the 3.5 format so if you want 3.0 I can change it back.

Elklion
Large Animal
Hit Dice: 12d8+72 (126 hp)
Initiative: +4
Speed: 40 feet (8 squares)
Armor Class: 22 (-1 size, +4 Dex, +9 natural), touch 13, flat-footed 18
Base Attack/Grapple: +9/+23
Attack: Claw +19 melee (1d6+10)
Full Attack: 2 claws +19 melee (1d6+10), and gore +14 melee (2d8+5) and bite +13 melee (1d8+5)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Improved grab, pounce, rake (1d6+5)
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +14, Ref +12, Will +10
Abilities: Str 31, Dex 19, Con 23, Int 2, Wis 14, Cha 10
Skills: Balance +11, Hide* +7, Listen +7. Move Silently +11, , Spot +7
Feats: Alertness, Run, Weapon Focus (claw), weapon focus (gore), track
Ecology: Warm Plains
Organization: Solitary, Pair or Pride (6-10)
Challenge Rating: 5
Treasure: None
Alignment: Neutral
Advancement: 13-21 HD (Large), 22-30 HD (Huge)

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, an elklion must hit with its bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can rake.

Pounce (Ex): If a elklion charges a foe, it can make a full attack, including two rake attacks.

Rake (Ex): Attack bonus +13 melee, damage (1d6+5).

Scent (Ex): Elklions can detect opponents by sense of smell, within 30 feet. If the opponent is upwind, the range is 60 feet. If it is downwind, the range is 15 feet.

The elklion detects another creature’s presence but not its specific location. Noting the direction of the scent is a move action. If it moves within 5 feet of the scent’s source, the creature can pinpoint that source.

A creature with the Track feat and the scent ability can follow tracks by smell, making a Wisdom check to find or follow a track. The typical DC for a fresh trail is 10. The DC increases or decreases depending on how strong the quarry’s odor is, the number of creatures, and the age of the trail. For each hour that the trail is cold, the DC increases by 2. The ability otherwise follows the rules for the Track feat. Creatures tracking by scent ignore the effects of surface conditions and poor visibility.

Creatures with the scent ability can identify familiar odors just as humans do familiar sights.

Water, particularly running water, ruins a trail for air-breathing creatures. Water-breathing creatures that have the scent ability, however, can use it in the water easily.

False, powerful odors can easily mask other scents. The presence of such an odor completely spoils the ability to properly detect or identify creatures, and the base Survival DC to track becomes 20 rather than 10.

Skills: Like other lions, elklions have a +4 racial bonus on Balance, Hide, and Move Silently checks. *In areas of tall grass or heavy undergrowth, the Hide bonus improves to +12.

Notes: With 15 skill points and 5 skills, it makes the most sense to put 3 ranks in each skill. There is a -4 size penalty to Hide checks which cancels out benefit from Dex. Added ability modifiers and feat modifiers to Spot and Listen as well. Skill section should be complete.

[GGambrel]

The biggest issue is that the Wizard can just use fly to get out of range and fireball it to death from a couple of hundred feat up. The fact that many other build options will work to decimate it are kinda irrelevant at that point.

I agree with this. The Elklion is much less threatening if PCs can just get out of range.

You could give the Elklion wings too I suppose, and definitely make it a magical beast. I think if you stick with them hunting/fighting in packs it will be more interesting for the players than if they encounter individuals. Though if this is the case, you might consider reducing the number of hit dice.

Alternatively to creating new creatures, you could just modify some of the key features of normal creatures (you could think of it as a "Anti-Meta-Gaming" Template). Now all of a sudden certain skeletons have springy bones that are resistant to bludgeoning weapons but may be cut, Trolls have DR 5/cold iron and Fast Healing 5 instead of Regeneration, and Phase Spider venom does Int/Wis/Cha damage. Obviously you'd want to give hints to the players and allow the PCs a chance to recognize the variant creature.

[Johnngrimm]

Thanks to all who have given feedback so far!!

Also thankyou Debihuman for putting it into 3.5 format!! :D

The fluff behind how the Elklion came to be is that it was a hybred created through expermients to create a more proficient hunter. Something to keep people out of a castle, the expirement went wrong and slaughtered everyone in the castle and has fled to the jungle nearby and is killing everything it encounters endangering the food supply.

With the Elklion I could make it a magical beast, the Animal typing was because I wasn't sure if it would be too powerful if I gave it a full BAB and d10 hit dice. As for dealing with flying would giving the Elklion a sort of gravity control ability work if I was making it a magical Beast?

Gravity crush(Su): An Elklion may create an are of intense gravity in an area around its self plunging all creature into the ground or lifting them off the ground. This ability creates a 200ft radius sphere around the Elklion of intense gravity that can pull all creatures to the ground. Everything in this area weighs twice as much and flying creatures that enter this area are immediately pulled to the ground, taking falling damage and being unable to fly while the effect persist. The Elklion may also use this ability to lighten itself, when making a jump check an Elklion may multiply its result by 4. This ability is activated using a standard action and requires a swift action each turn to maintain the ability.

[Carl]

Question, can you tell us the spells known of the wizard and Druid please. Gravity might do the trick, but depending on their spells known they may not need fly, fly + ranged blasting is literally the lowest level "i win" button the party could have.

[Debihuman]

2 things. First, to challenge a 9th level party, you would have to use at least 2 elklions and possibly 3 in the same encounter.

If you want to make them magical beasts, that's easily done. HD and hp change, Type changes to Magical Beast. Then you have to decide if this makes them sentient. I don't recommend giving them Int more than 3.

Gravity crush would need to be reversed to lift creatures off the ground. However, I don't recommend it. First, you need game mechanics to describe what happens in an area of intense gravity (movement slowed to half, encumbrance doubled, and ranged weapons would have their range halved). Second, if everyone plunges to the ground there's nothing for the elklion to attack while it is in the air. However, if it can still move at normal speed while everyone is slowed, that makes it far more dangerous. I recommend limiting the number of times a day it can do it and for how long the effect lasts.

Gravity Crush (Su): Three times a day as a standard action, an elklion may create an area of intense gravity in a 200-foot radius that lasts for 1d4+1 rounds. Flying creatures that enter the area plunge into the ground, taking 1d6 points of damage per 10 feet fallen, to a maximum of 20d6. A successful Reflex save (DC 16) halves the damage. While in an area of intense gravity, creatures on the ground have their movement slowed by half and encumbrance doubled. Ranged weapons have their range limit reduced to half. Elklions are unaffected by intense gravity and may move at their normal speed. The save DC is Charisma-based.

Debby

[Johnngrimm]

2 things. First, to challenge a 9th level party, you would have to use at least 2 elklions and possibly 3 in the same encounter.

If you want to make them magical beasts, that's easily done. HD and hp change, Type changes to Magical Beast. Then you have to decide if this makes them sentient. I don't recommend giving them Int more than 3.

Gravity crush would need to be reversed to lift creatures off the ground. However, I don't recommend it. First, you need game mechanics to describe what happens in an area of intense gravity (movement slowed to half, encumbrance doubled, and ranged weapons would have their range halved). Second, if everyone plunges to the ground there's nothing for the elklion to attack while it is in the air. However, if it can still move at normal speed while everyone is slowed, that makes it far more dangerous. I recommend limiting the number of times a day it can do it and for how long the effect lasts.

Gravity Crush (Su): Three times a day as a standard action, an elklion may create an area of intense gravity in a 200-foot radius that lasts for 1d4+1 rounds. Flying creatures that enter the area plunge into the ground, taking 1d6 points of damage per 10 feet fallen, to a maximum of 20d6. A successful Reflex save (DC 16) halves the damage. While in an area of intense gravity, creatures on the ground have their movement slowed by half and encumbrance doubled. Ranged weapons have their range limit reduced to half. Elklions are unaffected by intense gravity and may move at their normal speed. The save DC is Charisma-based.

You have worded Gravity Crush for how I intended for it to function thank you!

Would this seem more like what it should be then??


Elklion
Large Magical Beast
Hit Dice: 12d10+72 (138 hp)
Initiative: +4
Speed: 50 feet (10 squares)
Armor Class: 22 (-1 size, +4 Dex, +9 natural), touch 13, flat-footed 18
Base Attack/Grapple: +12/+26
Attack: Claw +22 melee (1d6+10)
Full Attack: 2 claws +22 melee (1d6+10), and gore +17 melee (2d8+5) and bite +16 melee (1d8+5)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Improved grab, pounce, rake (1d6+5), Gravity Crush
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, Darkvision 60ft, scent
Saves: Fort +14, Ref +12, Will +10
Abilities: Str 31, Dex 19, Con 23, Int 3, Wis 14, Cha 10
Skills: Balance +11, Hide* +7, Listen +7. Move Silently +11, , Spot +7
Feats: Alertness, Run, Weapon Focus (claw), weapon focus (gore), track
Ecology: Warm Plains
Organization: Solitary, Pair or Pride (6-10)
Challenge Rating: 9
Treasure: None
Alignment: Neutral
Advancement: 13-21 HD (Large), 22-30 HD (Huge)

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, an elklion must hit with its bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can rake.

Pounce (Ex): If a elklion charges a foe, it can make a full attack, including two rake attacks.

Rake (Ex): Attack bonus +13 melee, damage (1d6+5).

Gravity Crush (Su): Three times a day as a standard action, an elklion may create an area of intense gravity in a 200-foot radius that lasts for 1d4+1 rounds. Flying creatures that enter the area plunge into the ground, taking 1d6 points of damage per 10 feet fallen, to a maximum of 20d6. A successful Reflex save (DC 16) halves the damage. While in an area of intense gravity, creatures on the ground have their movement slowed by half and encumbrance doubled. Ranged weapons have their range limit reduced to half. Elklions are unaffected by intense gravity and may move at their normal speed. The save DC is Charisma-based.

Scent (Ex): Elklions can detect opponents by sense of smell, within 30 feet. If the opponent is upwind, the range is 60 feet. If it is downwind, the range is 15 feet.

The elklion detects another creature’s presence but not its specific location. Noting the direction of the scent is a move action. If it moves within 5 feet of the scent’s source, the creature can pinpoint that source.

A creature with the Track feat and the scent ability can follow tracks by smell, making a Wisdom check to find or follow a track. The typical DC for a fresh trail is 10. The DC increases or decreases depending on how strong the quarry’s odor is, the number of creatures, and the age of the trail. For each hour that the trail is cold, the DC increases by 2. The ability otherwise follows the rules for the Track feat. Creatures tracking by scent ignore the effects of surface conditions and poor visibility.

Creatures with the scent ability can identify familiar odors just as humans do familiar sights.

Water, particularly running water, ruins a trail for air-breathing creatures. Water-breathing creatures that have the scent ability, however, can use it in the water easily.

False, powerful odors can easily mask other scents. The presence of such an odor completely spoils the ability to properly detect or identify creatures, and the base Survival DC to track becomes 20 rather than 10.

Skills: Like other lions, Elklions have a +4 racial bonus on Balance, Hide, and Move Silently checks. *In areas of tall grass or heavy undergrowth, the Hide bonus improves to +12.

As for spells the Wizard most often uses these ones:
0: Caltrops, Detect Magic, Light, Mage Hand
1: Mage Armor, Wall of Smoke, Grease, Expeditious Retreat (swift), Targeting Ray, Silent Image, Blockade
2: Web, Glitterdust, Cloud of Bewilderment, Rope Trick, Invisibility, Create Magic Tattoo, Fog Cloud
3: Bands of Steel, Haste, Corpse Candle, Stinking Cloud, Dimension step, Mage Armor (greater)
4: Dimension Door, Solid Fog, Bloodstar, Wall of Sand, Assay Spell Resistance, Celerity
5: Teleport, Cloudkill, Wall of Stone, Overland Flight, Wall of Good

The Druid is harder to predict what spells he will prepare because sometimes he will use battlefield control spells and sometimes he will use blasty spells. I guess most often he uses buff spells on him and his Dire Wolf animal companion to charge into melee to give the rogue more flanking budies.

The Crusader has the standard lockdown build with White Raven Tactics that he normally uses on the rogue for things that are not immune to sneak attack.

And lastly the Rogue. The rogue does Rogue things, disabling traps, sneak attacking (w/ penetrating strike), being thrown onto creatures with telekinesis. Those sorts of things. (on a side note can magical beasts be immune to critical hits and sneak attack?)

EDIT: I did make the Elklion faster. Being a large quadruped an all.

[Debihuman]

I think the magical beast version of the elklion works well.

As you are the DM, I suggest that the creature run away if its hit points get to 34 or below. It would save its last gravity crush to slow down opponents to make a quick getaway since it has a speed advantage at that point and it is smart enough to use that tactic.

Since these now have Intelligence of 3, they would be able to understand a language even if they cannot speak it. Common is always good.

Debby

[Carl]

As for spells the Wizard most often uses these ones:
0: Caltrops, Detect Magic, Light, Mage Hand
1: Mage Armor, Wall of Smoke, Grease, Expeditious Retreat (swift), Targeting Ray, Silent Image, Blockade
2: Web, Glitterdust, Cloud of Bewilderment, Rope Trick, Invisibility, Create Magic Tattoo, Fog Cloud
3: Bands of Steel, Haste, Corpse Candle, Stinking Cloud, Dimension step, Mage Armor (greater)
4: Dimension Door, Solid Fog, Bloodstar, Wall of Sand, Assay Spell Resistance, Celerity
5: Teleport, Cloudkill, Wall of Stone, Overland Flight, Wall of Good

The Druid is harder to predict what spells he will prepare because sometimes he will use battlefield control spells and sometimes he will use blasty spells. I guess most often he uses buff spells on him and his Dire Wolf animal companion to charge into melee to give the rogue more flanking budies.

The Crusader has the standard lockdown build with White Raven Tactics that he normally uses on the rogue for things that are not immune to sneak attack.

And lastly the Rogue. The rogue does Rogue things, disabling traps, sneak attacking (w/ penetrating strike), being thrown onto creatures with telekinesis. Those sorts of things. (on a side note can magical beasts be immune to critical hits and sneak attack?)

I was more interested in which ones they actually know as apposed to what they ushually use, but i'll take what i can get.

Ok you've allready got an issue because Cloudkill can wear it down over time and Solid Fog can basically limit it. Combine that with the two Wall spells to slow it once it reach's the outer edges of the cloud, also this could be combined with Stinking Cloud, and Bands of Steel for more slow down. Even if this combo doesn't kill it, it can make it a much easier target and more importantly would certainly vastly reduce it's maximum HP's. Poison immunity would help a lot however. But even then, Solid Fog, Band's of Steel, and Stinking Cloud are potentially very bad effects to be hit with. Bloodstar would also be awesome support as well. And that's assume he doesn't know and prepare Hold Monster or Enervation, or a couple of other nasties.

And yes there's nothing preventing it being immune to Critical hits, and thus SA.

[Debihuman]

Since the elklion isn't evil, a wall of good spell wouldn't have much effect. Putting a wall of stone in the jungle could be difficult. There are trees but not necessarily a lot of rocks to attach it to.

It still needs a decent defensive capability. While magical beasts can be immune to critical hits, it's not something that fits with the design of this creature. Throwing random abilities onto creatures for no good reason (other than to thwart a group of PCs) doesn't make for a better creature.

It might not be possible for the rogue to be thrown (telekinesis has a weight limit and the rogue's weight in the area of gravity crush would be doubled as well.) You should crunch the numbers on how much the spell can lift.

With scent, it should be able to recognize and outrun the cloudkill or take to higher ground. It's smart enough to wait out the spell. in fact, like lions these should have incredible patience. They generally hunt at night or early in the morning. They spend most of their time hiding. Elklions would have the advantage of using their antlers as bait since herd animals wouldn't recognize it as a lion necessarily.

Don't forget a wizard made this and it has killed that wizard. It's safe to assume the elklion had lots of experience with spells even if it can't cast them.

Debby

[Carl]

Since the elklion isn't evil, a wall of good spell wouldn't have much effect. Putting a wall of stone in the jungle could be difficult. There are trees but not necessarily a lot of rocks to attach it to.

It still needs a decent defensive capability. While magical beasts can be immune to critical hits, it's not something that fits with the design of this creature. Throwing random abilities onto creatures for no good reason (other than to thwart a group of PCs) doesn't make for a better creature.

It might not be possible for the rogue to be thrown (telekinesis has a weight limit and the rogue's weight in the area of gravity crush would be doubled as well.) You should crunch the numbers on how much the spell can lift.

With scent, it should be able to recognize and outrun the cloudkill or take to higher ground. It's smart enough to wait out the spell. in fact, like lions these should have incredible patience. They generally hunt at night or early in the morning. They spend most of their time hiding. Elklions would have the advantage of using their antlers as bait since herd animals wouldn't recognize it as a lion necessarily.

Don't forget a wizard made this and it has killed that wizard. It's safe to assume the elklion had lots of experience with spells even if it can't cast them.

Debby

Gah got it into my head it was evil. Thanks for that correction, and with a solid fog spell it isn't outrunning anything at 5ft per turn. Your right of course that throwing abilities on is a bad idea, i was just saying it isn't barred. Though given it's predator status Mettle, Evasion, and Uncanny Dodge would all work i should think, the latter really hurting the rouge, especially if you go for the improved version. And poison immunity could be justified by giving it it's own poison attack, which wouldn't be out of line for a predator either.

[Johnngrimm]

Though given it's predator status Mettle, Evasion, and Uncanny Dodge would all work i should think, the latter really hurting the rouge, especially if you go for the improved version. And poison immunity could be justified by giving it it's own poison attack, which wouldn't be out of line for a predator either.

I was looking to make it as more of a patient stalker type creature that was able to take a lot of hits so Mettle might just work. How would improved uncanny dodge set the rogue back by the way?

EDIT: I see how the Uncanny Dodge would set the rouge back. Adding Mettle and Improved Uncanny Dodge could be good on the Elklion while giving it some much needed special defenses. Would adding both of these bring this to CR 9 then?

[Debihuman]

I think adding Mettle and Uncanny Dodge certainly would add to CR. Put it through Vorpal Tribble's CR Estimator and see what you get.

Also, I just noticed that it is missing darkvision 60 ft. that it should have from being a Magical Beast.

Vorpal Tribble’s CR Estimator

#1. Divide creature's average HP by 4.5 to 6.5. 4.5 for 5 HD or lower, 5 for 6-10 HD, 5.5 for 11-15 HD, 6 for 16-20 HD., 6.5 for 20-25 HD.

#2. Add 1 for each five points above 10 its AC is, subtracting 1 for every 5 below.

#3. Add 1 for each special attack (+2 to +5 or more if it has a decent number of spells in its spell-like abilities).

#4. Add 1 for each quality unless you deem it worthy of more. Add 1 for each resistance and 10 points of DR it has, and 2 for each immunity. Subtract 1 for each vulnerability.

#5. Add 1 for every two bonus feats it has.

#6. Divide total by 3. This should be its rough CR.

Note when I add mettle and uncanny dodge the CR becomes 11 according to the estimator. However, this is only a rough CR and considering the party I think you need the extra boost. You might want to add weight to what the gravity crush affects as well so that your party can't cry foul on you later.

You are right about the creature not being able to move faster than solid fog (I was thinking fog cloud and missed that solid fog was on that list). The advantage is the party is slowed by the spell too.

Debby

[Johnngrimm]

Thank you everyone for the help!! I am testing it out tomorrow with Mettle and Improved Evasion. Thanks Again for the help!