Assassin build : Fail or not ?

[Vodahim]

Hello Giant in the Playground !

I'm still french and my english is still rough too ^^'
So, I apologize for bad translation, etc...

This time, I'm not here for build a character but to discuss about the utility of feats and items I have choose for this little assassin.

First, some clarification :
- I don't want to take a psionic class (I don't know the rules, my DM too)
- I have access at all books if they are in 3.5 (but I haven't all the book, so if you have a link for the pdf or if you can describe the feat/rules/... it's perfect)
(I have a lot of books so if you specify your source, I can search).


Laurel Barnandi (lvl 9) :
- Bard 1 / Rogue 5 (for the 3d6 sneak attack) / Assassin 3
- After the level 9, I actually think to go on Assassin 10, and no idea for later.

Bard 1 : because RolePlay. And it's a great combo for the death attack (on a single target, I think ?)
For my gameplay, I want to be a shadow on the battlefield and a seducer in the town (I'm a rich noble who love adventure and dungeon / member of the assassin's guild) so I up :
- Diplomacy
- Psychology (don't find the translation in the character sheet, maybe "Sense motive" if it's a social skill)
- Bluff
- Hide
- Move Silently
- Spot

Feats :
- lvl 1 (free) : Mind Mask (Secret of Sarlona)
- lvl 1 (human) : Exotic Weapon : Two-bladed Sword
- lvl 1 (normal) : Two weapon fighting
- lvl 3 : Blind Fight, combine with assassin's spell darkness and other situation where I can turn-off the light (?)
- lvl 6 : Darkstalker (Lords of Darkness)
- lvl 9 : I'm hesitant to take dodge. For take Spring Attack lvl 15...

Equipment (limit 28.800 po) :

Weapons :
- Shock Two-bladed Sword +1
- Longsword +1
- Dagger +1 (Assassin's Dagger later ^^)

Armors :
- Mithral shirt +1
- Animated Heavy Shield (steel) +1

Magic Item :
- Gloves of Dexterity +2
(But, improve Intelligence is better than improve Dexterity ? For the death attack I suppose ? And I improve Dexterity too at lvl 4 and lvl 8, it's a bad thing ?)

So, what do you think about him ?

Questions :

1 - An adamantine weapon reduces a damage reduction on an ennemy or it's just for items ?
2 - I guess it already exists but what is the maximum for a sneack attack (and how can I maximize the sneack attack with this build (if it's possible) ?) ?


(I leave home this night so if I don't reply before one week it's okay ^^')

Thanks for your future answer !

Vodahim,
A little pixie.

[Chronos]

Assassin isn't as powerful as it ought to be, and in particular the death attack takes way too long to use and is too likely to fail. That said, though, they're pretty good at the rogueish skill stuff, and have decent spellcasting.

Sense Motive is the skill that's used to tell if someone is lying to you, and can also sometimes let you know if there's something "wrong" or "off" about a person or situation (like, a person is under a Charm spell, or everyone at the party seems to be avoiding a person for no apparent reason).

There is no maximum possible value for Sneak Attack. It's easy to get half your level worth of dice, and hard to get more than your level, but it's possible. The best ways to get the most out of it are to dip one level each in a bunch of classes that get it, like rogue, spellthief (Complete Adventurer), sneak attack fighter (variant from Unearthed Arcana), or (almost) ninja (Complete Adventurer, has Sudden Strike instead, which is similar but not quite as good); to take the Craven feat from Champions of Ruin to get an extra point of damage per character level; and to get various other effects besides damage that trigger on Sneak Attack.

One trick I like for an assassin is to take the feat Arterial Strike (Complete Adventurer) and the spell Cursed Weapon (Spell Compendium). Arterial Strike causes your target to take 1 damage every round until the wound is cured, and Cursed Weapon means that the wound can't be cured until the victim gets a Remove Curse spell. Hit them once and flee, and your victim is almost guaranteed to die in a few minutes.

Adamantine doesn't bypass a creature's damage reduction in general, since damage reduction is a different thing from hardness. Some kinds of creatures, however, have DR that's specifically bypassed by adamantine. In any event, it's handy to have some sort of adamantine blade, for cutting through steel bars or the like.

[Blackhawk748]

A classic Two Weapon Fighting Assassin Build there, though personally i would get rid of the Exotic Weapon Proficiency and take Craven instead, trust me your gonna love it. Blind Fight can be pretty useful and Dodge is.... well its just Dodge, most of us only care about it for the Pre Requsite, though im gonna recommend not taking Spring Attack as you are dual wielding.

Also Chronos is right, Death Attack takes a bit to wind up, which is why you will only use it as an encounter opener, after that get a flanking buddy and go to town on some poor sods kidneys. AS for the "to likely to fail" part it depends on your Int score mostly, though it is true that Fort is the highest average save of monsters, which is why you target mages with your death attack. And as for the Arterial Strike + Cursed Weapon, dude thats just mean.

[Optimator]

I think the Assassin is a decent PrC--not underpowered, that's for sure. One of the better classes in the DMG for what it's worth. Try to see if your DM will be more lenient with spells known--there are a lot of surprising gems on their spell list, especially with the Spell Compendium. Perhaps a small GP and XP xost to permanently add spells known or something like that. Assassin 10 nabs you Hide In Plain Sight, Sneak Attack, and precious spells; quite serviceable, especially with lower optimization standards.

Also, I wouldn't do Spring Attack and dual-wielding unless your DM has buffed the TWF feats (as mine has--it's an underpowered and over-feat-ed combat style). Staggering Strike from CAv is amazing. That plus Craven can make any melee dual-wielder respectable in most mid-levels of optimization IMO.

Also, don't focus on Death Attack--it's lackluster at BEST. Think of it as a little, tiny perk with roleplaying applications, as its roll-playing value is practically zero.

[Darrin]

- lvl 1 (human) : Exotic Weapon : Two-bladed Sword


Use a quarterstaff instead. Spending a feat for +1 damage isn't worth it.

Further reading:

TWF OffHandbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?279079).



- lvl 3 : Blind Fight, combine with assassin's spell darkness and other situation where I can turn-off the light (?)


Blind-Fight doesn't get rid of concealment/miss chance, it just lets you reroll. I would consider taking the Planar Touchstone feat (Planar Handbook), link to the Catalogues of Enlightenment, and choose the Baator domain power (Spell Compendium): you can see perfectly in any kind of darkness, magical or otherwise.



- lvl 9 : I'm hesitant to take dodge. For take Spring Attack lvl 15...


If you have to take Dodge (and you don't), take Expeditious Dodge instead (Races of the Wild). You mention Spring Attack, but this is a terrible feat to begin with, and even more terrible for TWF. Since you only get a single melee attack on Spring Attack, everything you've invested into TWF is useless. Even if you try to salvage Spring Attack with Bounding Assault and Rapid Blitz, you still don't get to attack with two weapons. There are better ways to move and full attack. Person_Man made a list:

Ways to get Pounce or Free Movement (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?103358).

As a sneak attacker, your top priority for feats should be Craven (Champions of Ruin) and Staggering Strike (Complete Adventurer). After that, I like to work towards Double Hit (Miniatures Handbook).



Weapons :
- Shock Two-bladed Sword +1
- Longsword +1
- Dagger +1 (Assassin's Dagger later ^^)


That's a lot of money invested in four different +1 weapons, two of which you'll never use so long as your primary weapon is available. That money might be better spent elsewhere (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?148101).



Armors :
- Mithral shirt +1
- Animated Heavy Shield (steel) +1


An animated heavy shield +1 costs at least 9000 GP, for a total AC bonus of +3. I think you may be better off upgrading to a Mithral Breastplate +1 (Twilight property and some combination of Githcraft, Feycraft, or Thistledown reduces the ASF to zero) and getting an Amulet of Natural Armor +1 (2000 GP) and a Ring of Protection +1 (2000 GP).



Magic Item :
- Gloves of Dexterity +2
(But, improve Intelligence is better than improve Dexterity ? For the death attack I suppose ? And I improve Dexterity too at lvl 4 and lvl 8, it's a bad thing ?)


Death Attack is very difficult to set up and use. You use Dexterity every time someone attacks you. So I'd worry about buffing your Dex first.



1 - An adamantine weapon reduces a damage reduction on an ennemy or it's just for items ?


Against certain creatures, yes, you may encounter DR X/Adamantine (mostly golems). But there are magic items you can get to help with that: wands of golemstrike, Golembane Scarab, Deathstrike Bracers, Greater Truedeath Crystal, Ring of Adamantine Touch, and so forth. Many of those options are going to be cheaper than paying for adamantine twice on a double weapon (6000 GP).

I actually prefer Cold Iron, since there aren't any spells/magic items that easily confer that special material, and you can take the Undo Resistance feat later (Fiendish Codex II), which reduces Spell Resistance with each hit. Getting past SR is more of a headache for higher levels.



2 - I guess it already exists but what is the maximum for a sneack attack (and how can I maximize the sneack attack with this build (if it's possible) ?)

Take the Craven Feat, and work towards Unseen Seer (Complete Mage). For your first Advanced Learning, take the hunter's eye spell from PHBII. A 2-level dip into Swordsage (Tome of Battle) may let you pick up Assassin's Stance for +2d6 sneak attack. I believe PlzBreakMyCampaign currently has the World Record for sneak attack: 55d6+24 (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=8770.msg140057#msg140057).

The problem with sneak attack isn't how much dice you get, but how many creatures you'll run into that are immune to it. So make sure you pick up an ACF (alternate class feature) such as Penetrating Strike (Dungeonscape) that lets you swap Trap Sense for the ability to do half your sneak attack damage when flanking creatures immune to crits. If you have access to it, the Penetrating Strike ACF in Expedition to Castle Ravenloft is a little better than the Dungeonscape version.

[gorfnab]

This handbook may provide some insight: Assassin Handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=8273.0)

[Amphetryon]

Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?178202-Iron-Chef-Optimization-Challenge-XVI) is a fairly decent collection of builds focused around the Assassin PrC. Page 6.

[Threadnaught]

Are you wanting to be an assassin, or an Assassin?


The first can be achieved by being hired to kill specific people.

[Vodahim]

Hi,

First, thank you all. I read all of your answers before I go away, but I didn't know why, I can't reply on the forum.

I have play my assassin this week and a lot of rules have change. First, for all feats/others who aren't in the core, my DM accept (or not) on a case by case.
So, Mind Mask (like a bad align player AND a noble who decide (a little) of the fate of a city) is really really usefull. But it's a psionic feat and I haven't psionic level...
DarkStalker is my next skill (not before because I haven't fight myself against a monster who can't take in a pincer attack (I don't find the translation... But it's when two people surround a monster) like a Beholder (now it's good ^^).



Anyway, I see THE problem with this class : cause a sneak attack...
I actually read the Assassin's Handbook link before, it's very usefull.

Thank again.

Vodahim

[Chronos]

DarkStalker is my next skill (not before because I haven't fight myself against a monster who can't take in a pincer attack (I don't find the translation... But it's when two people surround a monster) like a Beholder (now it's good ^^).
The English word in the rules for this maneuver is "flanking". But Darkstalker is really useful even outside of combat. Or especially so.

[Vodahim]

Flanking ! Thanks (I forget it...)

And I know it's really useful in many situations but my DM don't approve of take this feat before I fight an enemy who I can't flanking.

Last question (for now) :
Can you complete/fix this list of unavoidable items for an assassin :

- Bracer's of murder (DoTU) : +2 DC (for the death attack)
- Bracer's of the hunter : +1d6 sneak attack, +5 hide, +1 deflection bonus to AC : maybe can I have this enhancement on an other slot ? ^^
- Ring of blinking : 20% chance of fail, but opponents lose their Dexterity bonus (= sneak attack \o/)
- Belt of Battle (MIC) : for all
-

- Manyfang dagger (SK) I don't really sure my DM accept this item but if he's : The description say : "deals quadruple damage on each successful hits, or quintuple on a critical hit. So, I need to succeed an attack against an opponent. When it's done, I need to roll the dice for the three other blades for know if they touch or not ?
If I do a critical hit with the first die, I multiply the damage by 5 without roll new dice ? And if I do a critical hit with one of the three new dice ?
But, the multiplier is apply for all the damage (weapon's damage, sneak attack, other) or just for the weapon's damage (like a critical hit) ?

- Mithral chain shirt (under +11 Dexterity bonus)

- Feathered Wings : it's a fiendish graft. I don't know if take a graft is a good idea. I'm a noble and the private tutor of the next king (of a region). And I'm also a leading character in the assassin's guild of the same city. So be the one guy who have wings in is back isn't a really good thing.
Can I hide this wings, for the sight and the touch (a lot of "people" can touch my back so an invisibility effect isn't a valid choice). I think I can pay more (X2, more ?) for the "surgical intervention" and get the capacity to conceal this wings in me. And I can release this wings for a full round action.
For you, it's possible or not ?

[Abemad]

There are some pretty great ambush feats in Drow of the Underdark, Terrifying Strike and Sickening Strike, both apply a -2 to opponents saves (among other things) - perfect for death attack, poison or helping spellcasters land their spells.

[Vodahim]

I know. Drow of the Underdark it's a the sourcebook for building an assassin (I don't know a lot about the other books but DoTU is really ful of usefull feats/items).
The problem is my DM, he thinks that all (a lot of) the contents are for Drow and I need to travel at them for get an item (I simply can't go over there ^^)

[Grayson01]

Assassin is my Favorite PrC so I hope you enjoy it.
Here are the feats I would say you take and ones to get rid of.
Take In no particular order
1) Darkstalker
2) Craven
3) Weapon Finesse (If a high dex character)
4) Telling Blow PHB2 or CAd (if you are going with a rapier or high crit range weapon)
Lose
1) two bladed sword Not worth the increase Damage for a feat. A rapier and a Short sword/Dagger great Weapon Finesse weapons and the Increased Crit range for the Rapier well worth it.
2) Blindfighting (Ebon Eyes and Assassin's Darkness will let you see in magical darkness and mundane Darkness)
3) Skip Dogde and the Spring Attack Line.

Look into Skill tricks from the CS
Group Fakeout
Acrobattic BackStab
Back on your feet
Also there is a rule in the Rules Comp that allows you to use SLight of Hand to hide spell casting if not there is a skill trick for it. Works great to hide your spell casting so you can catch foes unsuspecting which is the Assassin's Bread and Butter.

[Vodahim]

I've already forget the three feats ^^ And wait lvl 12 to take Darkstalker (I can't take him before...)

For the Complete Scoundrel, I haven't found the book in french, and there are some points that I don't understand.

Skill Tricks (ST) :
- I can take one ST/2lvl. And just one by one.
- I need to spend 2 skill points (the same I usually use for up Sense Motiv, Diplomacy, etc) to take one ST.
- ST aren't feats, and I can take a feat AND a ST at the same level (if I'm available for a feat and a ST at the same time of course)
-- This is right ?

For the Skill Tricks that you speak :
- Acrobatick Backstap : I need to cause an opportunity attack (move into an ennemy area) and succeed a tumble check. And only after this, my opponent is flat-footed ?
- Group Fakeout : I don't understand the utility of this ST. I use frequently Bluff for take out the dexterity bonus. But why Bluff multiple ennemies ? It's for make one attack by opponent ?
Why don't attack the same guy and be sure he is dead ?


(If someone can answer me about the graft "feathered wings", it will be really helpful).

[Chronos]

I haven't looked up Feathered Wings specifically, but grafts tend to be horribly overpriced. There are many other items that can give you flight; consider one of them instead.

[Vodahim]

Feathered wings graft cost "only" 10.000 gp for a permaflight ability.
For the same price, the better I can found is in MoF : Winged Mask, who for 13.000 gp allow me to use "fly" when I want. But when I use this item, I "glow with white light (like a light spell)" and it's a handicap for an assassin.

This is why I ask for the price to hide the graft into my body.

And also, have my own wings is cool. But I'm not suicidal.

[Amphetryon]

Feathered wings graft cost "only" 10.000 gp for a permaflight ability.
For the same price, the better I can found is in MoF : Winged Mask, who for 13.000 gp allow me to use "fly" when I want. But when I use this item, I "glow with white light (like a light spell)" and it's a handicap for an assassin.

This is why I ask for the price to hide the graft into my body.

And also, have my own wings is cool. But I'm not suicidal.

If I remember correctly, there's a 'bat-like' wing graft option that's cheaper than that. I think it's Fiendish Codex 1 or 2.