5e Warlock : The Basics

[CyberThread]

Hi, I am your local thread creator today and have taken up the mantle of doing the very basics and skeleton for the Warlock Class, to help show off a bit of what mechanics are at play for the class.

WARLOCK

The Starting Basics

The Warlock runs a d8 HD per level , Light Armor + Simple weapon proficiency, with Charisma and Wisdom saving throws.
It also benefits from having two choices for skills out of a list of Arcana, Deception, History, Intimidation, investigation, nature, and religion.

The class may be as complex as the Monk as far as choices you can make, and the wizard as far as decisions you need to make a daily mood of what too pick.

Magic

Warlocks use Pact Magic, which counts as Arcane. They get access to cantrips and spells, but in a very different nature then most casters. Cantrips is also where the eldritch blast functions, doing the class function of unlimited blasting that it is traditionally known for.

Warlocks gain knowledge of spells much like a sorcerer, but instead of actual spell slots those are just the spells you can use. You can cast 3 mage hands or 3 charm monsters, it doesn't care what level the spell is just that you qualify for the slot level and that you have spell slots left to use.

If you cast a a level 1 thunderwave , but count as being able to use 3rd level spells, thunder wave gets caste as a third level spell instantly.


Eldritch Invocations, tend to be varied but not as powerful as 3.5 version was. List Link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?365815-dont-mind-me-just-some-warlock-unvocations), they are varied and have some restriction having access to them when you have a certain level, or a member of certain Otherwordly patrons.


Class Features


The big choice is also Pact Boon, which grants you access to one of three possible items. You only get access to these once and cannot change in the future.

Pact of the chain : You gain a familiar of your choice imp, pseudodragon, quasit or sprite. These creatures can't make attacks unless you give up your own attack action.

Pact of the blade: You bind yourself to a weapon, it counts as magical and is immune to nonmagical attacks or damages.

Pact of the tomb: You gain a book of shadows; choose three cantrips from any spell list.


Another class device is Mystic Arcanum, The warlock spell list gets up to level 9, but this is the class device that lets them access slots 7th and above. These spells you gain access too much higher level spells that do not go against your class slots, but you can only use them once each and cannot be switched out. This mechanic refreshed after each long rest.

Eldritch Master: Is the hard reset button once you hit level 20, once you expend your pact magic spell slots, this will refresh it instantly. Can only be used once per long rest.

Sub-Classes


Now the Major Sub Class decisions: Otherwordly Patrons

You gain access to theses at level 1, and each of the three gain very different play styles. The choices you have are , The Fiend, The Archfey, and The Great old One. I will break these up into each their own style. Each include a expanded spell list, which let you chose from spells, but do not add it to your list instantly.


ArchFey:

Expanded Spell list focuses mostly on nature/fey oriented magic, very powerful options to chose from that the warlock already has options to though.

Fey Presence: In a 10 foot radius you cause a charm or frightened status on all those who fail the save until the end of your next turn. Once per short or long rest.

Misty Escape: When you take damage, you turn invisible and teleport 60 feet away, as a reaction . You remain invisible until the start of your next turn or if you attack or cast a spell. Once per short or long rest.

Beguiling Defenses: You are immune from being charmed, any time a creature tries to charm you, you may reflect the spell and if they fail, they are charmed for one minute.

Dark Delirium: Charmed or frightened on a failed wisdom save. For one minute until they take damage or warlock loses concentration. They are plunged into an illusion realm with no clue or input of what is going around them.Once per short or long rest.


The Fiend:

Expanded Spell List: Very much the AOE damage caster spell list with several flame based magic that included fire wall, fireball, and flame strike.


Dark Ones Blessing: When you reduce a hostile creature to 0 hit points you gain temp HP

Dark Ones Own Luck : Add a d10 result to your roll, once per short or long rest.

Fiendish Resilience : Chose a damage type, you gain resistance to this damage type. Magic weapons or silver weapons ignores this class feature. Can chose a different damage type per short or long rest.

Hurl Through Hell :10d10 damage No Save action , The target is teleported through hell when you hit it with an attack, and shows back up at the location at the end of your next turn. Once per short or long rest.

The Great Old One:

Expanded Spell list: Mix of Damage, Control, divination.

Awakened Mind: One way telepathy within a 30ft radius.

Entropic Ward : You can force an attack to have disadvantage status, and you gain advantage status on the next turn you attack , can be used once per short or long rest.

Thought Shield: Immunity to Telepathy and thought reading, resistance to psychic damage , any psychic damage you gain the creature gets in return (no save)

Create Thrall : Target is charmed until remove curse spell is cast on it. You can communicate telepathically with the charmed target while on the same plane.

List of Invocations : Some Invocations are restricted by class level or patron choice



Add cha to eldritch blast.

Mage armor self at will

9th Level: Levitate at will

Speak with animals at will

Proficiency with deception and persuasions

7th level :Compulsion once using a spell slot per long rest

Pact of Tomb: Chose two 1st level spells that have ritual tag features from any class list. If you know any warlock spell that has a ritual tag you can also now cast it as a ritual spell. On your adventures if you find other ritual spells you can add them to your book of shadows, at 1/2 your warlock level. (Various rules on cost of adding it GP and time no XP )

15th level, pact of chain : hold monster at will against celestial fiend or elemental , can only be used against the same creature once per long rest

see in darkness magical and nonmagical, 120 feet

7th level: Cast confusion once using warlock spell slot once per long rest

detect magic at will

eldritch blast 300 ft


read all writing

false life at will

see through another willing creatures sense at will until the end of the next turn comes with some drawbacks and advatages

12th level , pact of the blade : cha mod damage while using pact weapon

disguise self at will

15th level :alter self at will

9th level :conjure elemental one using spell slot per long rest

5th level :slow using warlock spell slot once per long rest

silent image at will

5th level : become invisiable in dim light or darkness as long as you do nothing

9th level : cast jump at will

hit a creature with eldritch blast, they move back 10 ft

7th level : polymorph once per long rest

5th level :bestow curse once per long rest

bane once per long rest

5th level Pact of the Blade:attack with pact weapon twice instead of once per attack action

15th level :arcane eye at will

Pact of the Chain :telepathic chat with familer also can speak through them as long as on same plane

9th level :speak with the dead at will

15th level :True seeing always on for those within 30 feet of you and line of sight

Feat Options

Warlocks Gain Stat Bonus, at every 4th level. this segment I will take time to point out a few feat options you could take instead.

Alert:
Never Be Surprised again while awake, +5 bonus to initiative , No advantage on attack rolls against you from a result of being hidden

Actor:

+1 Cha, Advantage on Performance and deception checks, mimic sounds or speech of another person or creature.

Elemental Adapt : If your Fiend Pact
Lets you get all that fire damage past the resistance and some extra damage.

Mage Slayer: Pact of blade ?

Spell Sniper : Eldritch Blast and other spell benefits
Double the range of spells that require a attack roll
Ignore Half or 3/4 cover
Gain a cantrip that requires an attack roll

Warlock Spell List (WIP)


Very Minimal Rundown, as so many spells

The warlock list comes with many old favorites, and styled spells. Warlocks have access to many Status Aliment's , Illusions, Invisibility, Utilities like Spider Climb, Dispel Magic, Remove Curse. It also comes with many charm spells , but very few actual damage dealing spells. (Patron's have those options). They do get access to 9th level spells which include, Astral Projection, Foresight, Imprisonment, Power Word Kill, and True Polymorph.

[CyberThread]

Just incase I need an extra block for some random reaosn

[Lokiare]

Wait so if they have level 6 spells and they can cast say 6 spells, they can cast six 6th level spells if they want? Well they officially out do the wizard.

[CyberThread]

Wait so if they have level 6 spells and they can cast say 6 spells, they can cast six 6th level spells if they want? Well they officially out do the wizard.



Wrong, they get at level 20 , 4 spell slots up to 5th level, knowing 15 spells.

They get a class feature called mystic arcanum, where they get to know exactly ONE spell of each level above 6th and cast it once. An never switch it out.

[Lokiare]

Wrong, they get at level 20 , 4 spell slots up to 5th level, knowing 15 spells.

They get a class feature called mystic arcanum, where they get to know exactly ONE spell of each level above 6th and cast it once. An never switch it out.

Well that's much worse than a Wizard since a Wizard using Arcane Recovery can have five 5th level spell slots. Hopefully their other features make up for it.

[CyberThread]

It is clearly not designed as a Wizard competitor.

[Chambers]

I've been trying to figure out the wording on the Book of Ancient Secrets invocation. The invocation allows the Warlock to inscribe rituals into the book, specifically rituals from any class's spell list when you first gain the invocation. Further on it says "On your adventures, you can add other ritual spells to your Book of Shadows. When you find such a spell, you can add it to the book if the spell's level is equal to or less than half your warlock level (rounded up) and if you can spare the time to transcribe the spell."

It doesn't say that the new spells added must be Warlock spells and I'm wondering if you can add ritual spells from any class's spell list to the ritual book. There's a total of 4 Warlock spells that can be cast as Rituals while there's plenty more on the other classes spell lists.

I'm inclined to say that the Warlock can add other classes ritual spells to his/her Book of Shadows for 2 reasons. First, the invocation already gives permission for the Warlock to put non-Warlock ritual spells into the book when it's created. Second, the invocation would be pretty wasteful if you could only put Warlock ritual spells in it (4 total at the moment).

This invocation is a big boost to the Warlocks lack of higher level spellcasting. It means that given time, money, and access to ritual spells the Warlock has one of the widest range of magical effects in it's bag of tricks in the game (in terms of class spell list access). They can only be cast as rituals of course, so it's not viable in combat, but I think it adds a great deal to the class and this invocation is the primary reason to take the Pact of the Tome.

[hawklost]

I've been trying to figure out the wording on the Book of Ancient Secrets invocation. The invocation allows the Warlock to inscribe rituals into the book, specifically rituals from any class's spell list when you first gain the invocation. Further on it says "On your adventures, you can add other ritual spells to your Book of Shadows. When you find such a spell, you can add it to the book if the spell's level is equal to or less than half your warlock level (rounded up) and if you can spare the time to transcribe the spell."

It doesn't say that the new spells added must be Warlock spells and I'm wondering if you can add ritual spells from any class's spell list to the ritual book. There's a total of 4 Warlock spells that can be cast as Rituals while there's plenty more on the other classes spell lists.

I'm inclined to say that the Warlock can add other classes ritual spells to his/her Book of Shadows for 2 reasons. First, the invocation already gives permission for the Warlock to put non-Warlock ritual spells into the book when it's created. Second, the invocation would be pretty wasteful if you could only put Warlock ritual spells in it (4 total at the moment).

This invocation is a big boost to the Warlocks lack of higher level spellcasting. It means that given time, money, and access to ritual spells the Warlock has one of the widest range of magical effects in it's bag of tricks in the game (in terms of class spell list access). They can only be cast as rituals of course, so it's not viable in combat, but I think it adds a great deal to the class and this invocation is the primary reason to take the Pact of the Tome.

I read it as they can put any spell that has Ritual casting into their book as a Ritual. It does give them a decent bit of power for Rituals but at the same time, most spells are not that powerful as a Ritual though since they take so long to cast. Also, it would still cost the same amount of money to transcribe the Ritual of the Spell as it would for a Wizard to put the spell into his spellbook.

[CyberThread]

You wrote allot of words, so am just going to respond to the very first question you said.


It works like this: Book of Shadows is needed, you gain two 1st level rituals from any spell list ( check my other thread for a list of those), it also gives you access to spells of Warlock level / 2 rounded up. Which cost you gold + time from any spell list that are rituals. This does not count against your warlock spell list or your warlock spell slots.


This invocation is very much a requirement for the pact of the tomb.

[hawklost]

You wrote allot of words, so am just going to respond to the very first question you said.


It works like this: Book of Shadows is needed, you gain two 1st level rituals from any spell list ( check my other thread for a list of those), it also gives you access to spells of Warlock level / 2 rounded up. Which cost you gold + time from any spell list that are rituals. This does not count against your warlock spell list or your warlock spell slots.


This invocation is very much a requirement for the pact of the tomb.

From your indication, it seems you are saying they get 2 first level spells from anywhere and then only Warlock Rituals after that. That is not how it reads to me.

I see it as the following
2 1st level Rituals Any Class
All Warlock spells you know that have Ritual are able to be cast as Rituals (otherwise they cant be cast as Rituals without this Invocation)
If you find Any spell (Druid, Cleric, Wizards, Sorc ect) that can be transcribed and has the Ritual marker it can be added to your book for 50gp and 2 hrs per spell level (and assuming they are half your warlock level rounded up)

[CyberThread]

It works like this: Book of Shadows is needed, you gain two 1st level rituals from any spell list ( check my other thread for a list of those), it also gives you access to spells of Warlock level / 2 rounded up. Which cost you gold + time from any spell list that are rituals. This does not count against your warlock spell list or your warlock spell slots.



stuff you misquoted me on



There you go :)

[hawklost]

Actually my quoting was perfect. I misinterpreted your statement due to it being written in a way to be read differently.

On the other hand, you completely misquoted me.

[Tholomyes]

Surprised you left out that they their spells refresh on a short or long rest in the magic basics, since I think that's a pretty big basic. While I like this casting style, it does cause me concern, since I fear it might make the warlock too powerful, if you cut down the length of a short rest, which I think is a very necessary house-rule for myself and my group.

[Envyus]

Surprised you left out that they their spells refresh on a short or long rest in the magic basics, since I think that's a pretty big basic. While I like this casting style, it does cause me concern, since I fear it might make the warlock too powerful, if you cut down the length of a short rest, which I think is a very necessary house-rule for myself and my group.

Well we already know that shorter short rests are going to be in the dmg. But why do you need to cut them down?

[Chambers]

Shilleglagh would be perfect for a Pact of the Blade Warlock if we can figure out a way to take it (Druid Cantrip, Spellcasting Ability for attack and damage with the weapon). You could get it via Pact of the Tome but then you're not a Pact Blade. The Magic Initiate feat allows you to learn it but it specifically mentions Wisdom becomes your Spellcasting Ability for the purpose of using it.

Any ideas?

[CyberThread]

Honestly, I'd rather just go with a greatclub, then contort my build around just to get an extra cantrip that does d8 damage. Then you can use those extra spells and feats to build yourself a proper gish, and get yourself two attacks.

[Chambers]

Honestly, I'd rather just go with a greatclub, then contort my build around just to get an extra cantrip that does d8 damage.

The d8 damage die isn't the point. Shilleglagh allows you to use your Spellcasting Ability score for the attack and damage roll with the weapon. For a Druid this would be Wisdom, but we're Warlocks over here so we want to use Charisma for the attack and damage with the Pact Blade. It's a cantrip that's cast as a bonus action, so you can cast it at the beginning of each fight. I don't know if it's possible for a Warlock to get it though (without taking the Magic Initiate feat or Pact of the Tome).

Also, here's a list of the attack cantrips that a Warlock can choose from with the Pact of the Tome.


Name Damage Type Saving Throw Other Effects

Acid Splash Acid Dexterity Multi-target
Chill Touch Necrotic None Can't heal until SOYNT
Fire Bolt Fire None Ignites non-carried objects
Poison Spray Poison Constitution None
Produce Flame Fire None Light source
Ray of Frost Cold None -10ft speed
Sacred Flame Fire Dexterity No cover for save
Shocking Grasp Lighting None No reactions until SONT
Thorn Whip Piercing None Pulls target
Vicious Mockery Psychic Wisdom Disadvantage next attack

[CyberThread]

Yeah I should look into backgrounds while am at it and stack them up for a warlock.

None of that great an impact on the warlock, besides skill prof, allof them are pretty much self flavor choices.

[Shinken]

I like this Warlock very much!

[hawklost]

The d8 damage die isn't the point. Shilleglagh allows you to use your Spellcasting Ability score for the attack and damage roll with the weapon. For a Druid this would be Wisdom, but we're Warlocks over here so we want to use Charisma for the attack and damage with the Pact Blade. It's a cantrip that's cast as a bonus action, so you can cast it at the beginning of each fight. I don't know if it's possible for a Warlock to get it though (without taking the Magic Initiate feat or Pact of the Tome).

Also, here's a list of the attack cantrips that a Warlock can choose from with the Pact of the Tome.

You could technically get your Shileglaph through a Feat called Magic Initiate. Note though that it would still be based on your Wis score and not charisma. YOu could also dip into Cleric (Nature) but again, Wis based on your Shilleglagh.

[Tholomyes]

Well we already know that shorter short rests are going to be in the dmg. But why do you need to cut them down?I've found that usually, in our games, if you can rest for an hour, you can rest for 8. There aren't many times where there's a time-limit where 8 hours is excessive but one isn't. There may be times where the party would be able to rest for an hour with no ill effects, but often times, the party doesn't know that. The Evil Wizard might need to take 4 hours to activate the McGuffin, and the party might be able to take a rest if they knew that they had four hours, but what they usually know is "The wizard is trying to activate the 'scepter of eternal darkness' and we need to stop him."

A 10-15 minute rest means that it can't be assumed after every fight, but it doesn't cause the party to lose too much time in the event of a time-sensitive quest.

As for them being in the DMG, perhaps I'm being cynical, but I don't expect much more than: "If you want, you can vary the length of short and long rests. If you want a more gritty game you might want a Short rest to be 8-hours, while a long rest might take a week of no more than downtime activities. If you want a more cinematic game, short rests can be 5 minutes and long rests can be 2 hours" or something like that. I don't have much faith in Mearls to spend much ink on the implications for what this changes for class balance assumptions and other aspects of the game.

[lianightdemon]

Larping provides a good example how D&D intends the short rests to work. The encounters and modules are split up throughout the day, and usually after every module the characters go back to their camp and sit down to drink and eat something. Combat is very tiring, espiescally in the blazing heat. The characters and the players need that rest time to recover their stamina. By Sundays most players are totally sore and tired as well, so taking an hours rest between battles makes sense. Then taking several days to weeks off to recover and get more sleep (and showers, OMG the after larp shower is heaven)

Casters have to converse their mana or spell slots (depends on the larp) for the entire day, since they don't get them back until a set time (usually 6am real time) If you blow through all your skills early in the day then you still have to wait until the morning to regain them all.

I'd advise taking short rests as often as possible, and only long rest near the end of the day. Just for realism.

[CyberThread]

of all the classes I think the warlock might be the most likely to be a gish

[Human Paragon 3]

of all the classes I think the warlock might be the most likely to be a gish

Not college of valor bard? Or Eldritch Knight Fighter?

[CyberThread]

Not college of valor bard? Or Eldritch Knight Fighter?


I see a paladin being a stronger gish then EKF. I think COVB does have stronger potential then a warlock when it comes from overall party strength and gishing, and very strong magic. So I partially retracked my statement, I think warlock is a strong honest gish that doesn't have tier 1's or tier 2's eating abilties to become a gish.

[Human Paragon 3]

I see a paladin being a stronger gish then EKF. I think COVB does have stronger potential then a warlock when it comes from overall party strength and gishing, and very strong magic. So I partially retracked my statement, I think warlock is a strong honest gish that doesn't have tier 1's or tier 2's eating abilties to become a gish.

Does Paladin count as Gish? I thought gishes combined arcane casting with stand-up fighting. I like Eldritch Knight as a gish-in-a-can, similar to duskblade, but I think wizard or warlock actually make great choices too, especially with a mountain dwarf chassis.

The only thing you really need to overcome is low HP.

[CyberThread]

Well warlocks do get d8 , and fighters to me come on to late. I mean your level 7 before you get second level spell access. by that time the warlocks throwing around level 4 spells.

[Human Paragon 3]

Level 7? Wow, that's pretty rough. Yeah, I bet a mountain dwarf warlock would be a pretty great gish with the blade pact. Make it an axe.

[CyberThread]

My basic breakdown is this

pact of the chain, I do find the familers rather nice, but limited in gains comparable to the others, as they don't get their own attack economy but instead use yours. An none of them come with damn SLA's

Pact of the blade, rather nice magical weapon indestructible to most non-magical things, gains the invocation that lets you attack twice.

pact of shadows, gives you few nice things, but its invocation is lovely in that it turns you into a walking batman utility belt IF you have the money and the 10 mins to spare.



Archfey: Immunity to Charm, an escape mechanism , and one shot AOE effects if you get surrounded.


Fiend: Resistance status to a damage type, aoe spells, variable increase...not as much here really for a gish besides the temp HP when you kill something

Old One: Doesn't offer as much either, more of a stealthy type


Warlock Spell List: Is perfect as it is nothing but transportation , control, and self help spells.



So.. I yeah, it wouldn't be the best gish out of all the options, especially with all the HP balloned but, if you are ina dungeon crawl that allows lots of short rests, you can glass cannon hard.

[Yorrin]

Question about fiend patron- does the damage resistance it grants specify it has to be elemental? Because resistance to slashing, for example, would help a frontline gish type against melee opponents.

[CyberThread]

Just says damage type, says nothing about elemental or otherwise.

[Yorrin]

Just says damage type, says nothing about elemental or otherwise.

Wonderful. I was already impressed with the writing on this class, and this solidifies it even further. Looking forward to tinkering with a few builds.

[Fable Wright]

Any chance you could list the 4th through 6th level Warlock spells?

[StabbityRabbit]

So if I'm reading everything correctly it seems the best race for a blade pact warlock is a dragonborn. This would make dragonborn both the best paladin, and the best warlock.

I am totally fine with that.

[Falka]

Actually I think that Tieflings are better suited for Warlocks, because of both their background and kit.

Intelligence strikes me as an important Ability for a Warlock to have, especially if you are a Tome-lock and you are expected to have good scores in Investigation and analysis skills.

Also, it's hard for me to picture a Dragonborn Warlock. I'm not saying it's impossible, but considering how they're supposed to be, it's kinda weird. Why would a member of a race that is supposed to resent their former dragon tyrants be so willing to become a servant for an otherwordly entity? The Warlock's theme is quite centered around self-damnation through a quick path to power.

Half-Elfs also look quite interesting for this class. They have a good background for it (I can see Half-Elfs being outcasts, or simply aliens for both their parent cultures) and enough flexibility to become good candidates for any Pact (while the Dragonborn is more niched towards the Blade Pact).

Anyways, the class looks awesome and it fits perfectly the power-corrupting archetype for an arcane character that both the Sorceror and Wizard seem to miss (yes, you can become corrupt as any of those classes, but you don't need to).

[EternalHobbyist]

Any chance you could list the 4th through 6th level Warlock spells?

Banishment, Blight, Dimension Door, Hallucinatory Terrain
Contact Other Plane, Dream, Hold Monster, Scrying
Arcane Gate, Circle of Death, Conjure Fey, Create undead, Eyebite, Flesh to Stone, Mass Suggestion, True Seeing

[StabbityRabbit]

*snip*

Have they changed the fluff for dragonborn in 5e? All I know is their mechanical abilities, and very little 5e fluff.

Also on fluff reasons for dragonborn warlocks. It's less that dragonborn have tons of good reasons to be warlocks, but more of what it represents. Dragonborn have always been a very polarized race (in 4e fluff that is. I've got no clue how WotC changed them in 5e) usually choosing a side between good and evil with neutrality being much rarer in dragonborn. Thus they're likely to be mainly classes slated towards good and evil aka warlock and paladin. So seeing that those are the classes dragonborn are best suited for made me kind of happy because it was reinforcing the fluff that I knew.

Also I could totally see dragonborn warlocks. A demon prince could promise to give a dragonborn the draconic might denied to him, a good-intentioned dragonborn could strike a deal with an archfey to help protect her hometown as orcs descend upon it, etc.

I do agree with the sentiment that half-elves would be better suited towards warlocks, and tieflings would make good tome-locks.

Also wow, that was a wall of text.

[Chambers]

Any chance you could list the 4th through 6th level Warlock spells?

5e Spell Sorter. (http://mouseferatu.com/index.php/news/august-8-2014-a-special-gift-for-my-fellow-dd-fans/)


This spreadsheet allows you to sort by name, level, class, school of magic (you’re welcome, wizards and eldritch knights), by whether or not the spell has a ritual option, and by whether or not the spell requires concentration (you’re welcome, front-line casters).


Have they changed the fluff for dragonborn in 5e? All I know is their mechanical abilities, and very little 5e fluff.

There's some mention of the 3e fluff but on the whole they are presented as their own race, much like in 4e. "Shape by draconic gods or the dragons themselves, dragonborn originally hatched from dragon eggs as an unique race, combing the attributes of dragons and humanoids." It goes on to talk about Clans and there's a fluff sidebar for Draconians in Dragonlance about how Tiamat corrupted the eggs of chromatic dragons, "producing evil dragonborn called draconians."

I've seen elsewhere online about how this is some kind of fluff change for the Draconians in DL but I don't know much about DL to say for sure.

[Falka]

The fluff hasn't changed, though most of what we know about Dragonborns is mostly depicted in the 4e FR setting. And from there, I got the perspective that they were a slave race, previously ruled by dragon-kings.

Hence why they have a lot of Anarchist and Dragon Slayer paragons against evil dragons. Also, 5e mentions that the majority of Dragonborns are inclined towards good.

Anyways, it's a game, so I understand that anyone would find that character concept being cool. That's perfectly fine. As long as you back up your character with a good story you should be okay.

One of my players is a HUGE Dragonborn fan, so I'm a bit familiar with the race thanks to him. :p

[StabbityRabbit]

The fluff hasn't changed, though most of what we know about Dragonborns is mostly depicted in the 4e FR setting. And from there, I got the perspective that they were a slave race, previously ruled by dragon-kings.

Hence why they have a lot of Anarchist and Dragon Slayer paragons against evil dragons. Also, 5e mentions that the majority of Dragonborns are inclined towards good.

Anyways, it's a game, so I understand that anyone would find that character concept being cool. That's perfectly fine. As long as you back up your character with a good story you should be okay.

One of my players is a HUGE Dragonborn fan, so I'm a bit familiar with the race thanks to him. :p

Okay, so the only thing that changed about dragonborn was FR became core.

I apologize for nerding out over dragonborn I'm sure you get more than enough of that from your player.

[Falka]

Okay, so the only thing that changed about dragonborn was FR became core.

I apologize for nerding out over dragonborn I'm sure you get more than enough of that from your player.

Why would you want to apologize? You're as much as entitled to talk about a race you find cool as any other average Joe.

I had my fair share of concept pontification back in my days. One thing I've learned from it is how silly it sounds when someone talks about an imaginary race and points out how "bad-wrong-fun" it is to play it in a certain way.

I should be the one to apologize. Now I'm reading my first post and it sounds like "Oh my gosh how wrong you are because you want to play a Dragon-lock!". If we go further down in that train of thought we'll end up with Class-race characters like in OD&D... No, thanks!

[StabbityRabbit]

Why would you want to apologize? You're as much as entitled to talk about a race you find cool as any other average Joe.

I had my fair share of concept pontification back in my days. One thing I've learned from it is how silly it sounds when someone talks about an imaginary race and points out how "bad-wrong-fun" it is to play it in a certain way.

I should be the one to apologize. Now I'm reading my first post and it sounds like "Oh my gosh how wrong you are because you want to play a Dragon-lock!". If we go further down in that train of thought we'll end up with Class-race characters like in OD&D... No, thanks!

I apologized because I figured my posts came off annoying, and I do not want to hinder anyone's enjoyment of the forum. Also my first thought upon reading that you thought my apology was unjustified...was to say I'm sorry. So that should give you an idea of why I apologized.
You don't have to apologize (sound familiar:smallwink:) I took your post as an opportunity to have a discussion about different races and warlocks. Looking back it turned more into a rant about dragon-locks though.

[Rater202]

remember reading that Dragonborn were now the result of Dragons trying to reproduce without permision from eithe rBahamut or tiamat.

So fisrt Generation Dragonborn tend to have heads and colorations like a variety of true dragons.

but, the same article then went on to say that they could breed true, with the end result having a generic dragon head and the orangish scales of the 4E dragonborn, specifically to avoid damaging the fluff of Campaighn settings that already had Dragonborn.

Personally, I miss the original version of the Dragonborn from 3.5

[BoutsofInsanity]

With Spell Sniper and the Eldritch Spear, I now have a 600 foot range Eldritch Blast I can cast at will. Hot Dog!

[Zeuel]

Old One: Doesn't offer as much either, more of a stealthy type

In an imperfect(read dysfunctional) party their level 14 sounds like it's going to be amazing for the griefing/anti-PK capabilities it has. :D

[Person_Man]

Warlocks gain knowledge of spells much like a sorcerer, but instead of actual spell slots those are just the spells you can use. You can cast 3 mage hands or 3 charm monsters, it doesn't care what level the spell is just that you qualify for the slot level and that you have spell slots left to use.

If you cast a a level 1 thunderwave , but count as being able to use 3rd level spells, thunder wave gets caste as a third level spell instantly.

This is a very good news/bad news issue for me.

Its good news because I think every spell should have been written to automatically scale fully through levels 1-20, and that spellcasters should have just been given Cantrips + a small number of spells, renewed by a harder to obtain Long Rest. This would have made the spellcasting rules dramatically simpler, more powerful/important/dramatic (you have fewer of them, but using one is always awesome), would cut down on spell duplication, and would be a lot easier to explain to new players.

Its bad news because I hate "permission based" rules that create X restriction (spells don't automatically scale) specifically so that Y class or Feat can bypass it (unless you're a Warlock). I also hate that the Warlock, Wizard, Sorcerer, and Bard all basically get access to the same-ish list of spells. I would have strongly preferred giving each class a distinct niche that they owned. For example, Warlocks get Evocation (blow stuff up), Wizards get Transmutation (control/buff allies), Bards get Illusion/Enchantment (trickery/charms), Sorcerers get Conjuration/Necromancy (summons), Clerics get Healing/Abjuration/Divination (defender/oracle), Druids get Wildshape (buff self), or whatever. But unfortunately that was never going to happen, because too many play testers would have screamed "but my favorite Wizard used to do X!"

[HorridElemental]

I'm making a level 3 half elf warlock for a game this week, my PHB still hasn't arrived so I've been going on what I've found via giantitp/other sites. Thanks for this info!

I have most of it but I'm hoping to flesh it out by Saturday. I have to say though, pretty awesome so far, I hope it plays well.

Basics...

Garik, Half Elf Hermit Warlock

Str: 8 (-1)
Dex: 14 (+2)
Con: 14 (+2)
Int: 13 (+1)
Wis: 13 (+1)
Cha: 16 (+3)

Skills
Race: Acrobatics
Race: Insight
Hermit: Medicine
Hermit: Religion
Class: Arcana
Class: Deception
Tools: Herbalism Kit

Due to the point buy system and getting two skills for race/hermit/class I can really show the evolution from an orphan street performer to the student of a hermit, to becoming an avatar of the Dark Old One.

I'll be taking the Tome pact, in order to get a few extra Cantrips and the other goodies since I'll be playing this as more of a caster.

What Cantrips would be great for a warlock? I'm taking Spare the Dying since I'm sure no one else will have it (not sure if there will be a cleric...) But besides that I'm leaning toward illusions and utility since eldritch blast will be my main damage dealer.

[Chambers]

The spell slots are a little more nuanced than that. Essentialy, when a Warlock gets access to a new level of spells, all of their spell slots transform into spell slots of that spell level.

I don't remember the exact numbers but it works like this: At level X a Warlock can cast Y level spells and has Z number of spell slots, all of which are of spell level Y. A few levels later and the Warlock increases the number of spell slots they have to Z+1, their highest spell level is now Y+1 and all of their spell slots are level Y+1.

[metaridley18]

I really do like the Warlock. Lots of interesting options and a casting system that is reminiscent of 3.5 while still being fun and interesting for a good player. I don't see too much that is concerning to me as a DM, unlike with a few spells on other class lists.

As a player, I love the Hex spell. It's especially potent with a Bladelock and after you hit level 9 when you cast it for the first time it sticks around the rest of the day through rests and all, which makes for a very cool buff spell. I think it's balanced by Concentration but very worthwhile for a melee oriented Warlock.

[Zeuel]

I really do like the Warlock. Lots of interesting options and a casting system that is reminiscent of 3.5 while still being fun and interesting for a good player. I don't see too much that is concerning to me as a DM, unlike with a few spells on other class lists.

As a player, I love the Hex spell. It's especially potent with a Bladelock and after you hit level 9 when you cast it for the first time it sticks around the rest of the day through rests and all, which makes for a very cool buff spell. I think it's balanced by Concentration but very worthwhile for a melee oriented Warlock.

I can't wait for my Warlock to get high level so I can put Hex on something and then Eldritch Blast it for a possible 4d10+4d6+20 damage. :P

[HorridElemental]

I can't wait for my Warlock to get high level so I can put Hex on something and then Eldritch Blast it for a possible 4d10+4d6+20 damage. :P

Yes... Let the hate flow through you... Join the dark side...

[Naanomi]

I can't wait for my Warlock to get high level so I can put Hex on something and then Eldritch Blast it for a possible 4d10+4d6+20 damage. :P
Unless I'm reading the ability wrong, a Warlock 17/Sorcerer 3 could up that a bit by Empowering it, or from massive range with Distant Spell, or on the same round you Hex with Quickened Spell

[Chris Robin R2]

Given that at level 20 the Warlock only has 4 spell slots, his power is really dependent on how often he gets short rests.

[Naanomi]

Given that at level 20 the Warlock only has 4 spell slots, his power is really dependent on how often he gets short rests.
4 Spell Slots, one extra 'Spell Slot' for each spell level 6 through 9; a good offensive Cantrip; and a good selection of Invocations (that might be at-will/always on; but might be once/long rest so... a spell slot basically). It doesn't compare that horribly to other casters really.

[Zeuel]

Its bad news because I hate "permission based" rules that create X restriction (spells don't automatically scale) specifically so that Y class or Feat can bypass it (unless you're a Warlock). I also hate that the Warlock, Wizard, Sorcerer, and Bard all basically get access to the same-ish list of spells. I would have strongly preferred giving each class a distinct niche that they owned. For example, Warlocks get Evocation (blow stuff up), Wizards get Transmutation (control/buff allies), Bards get Illusion/Enchantment (trickery/charms), Sorcerers get Conjuration/Necromancy (summons), Clerics get Healing/Abjuration/Divination (defender/oracle), Druids get Wildshape (buff self), or whatever. But unfortunately that was never going to happen, because too many play testers would have screamed "but my favorite Wizard used to do X!"

I somewhat agree with you. I think the arcane spell lists should be more distinct, but I think the problem is the non-Warlock classes. The Warlock has a small and flavorful spell list that expands a little based on pact and with some unique Warlock only spells that captures the feel of what a Warlock should be. However the Wizard spell list is just massive while the Sorcerer feels like an arbitrary selection of certain Wizard spells with no rhyme or reason while the Bard just feels like a mash up of every divine and arcane caster's spell list.

I think how the Warlock spell list was done is how more of the classes should have been in that baseline it takes up 3/8 of a page but gets expanded a fair bit based on subclass. Also would it have hurt them to make more unique/semi-unique spells?


Unless I'm reading the ability wrong, a Warlock 17/Sorcerer 3 could up that a bit by Empowering it, or from massive range with Distant Spell, or on the same round you Hex with Quickened Spell

I generally don't like multi-classing so I'm going to be the best Warlock 20 I can be.

[metaridley18]

I can't wait for my Warlock to get high level so I can put Hex on something and then Eldritch Blast it for a possible 4d10+4d6+20 damage. :P

See, that's just not nice. I'll stick with my whip wielding Bladelock who does a comparatively paltry 2d4+2d6+20.

[CyberThread]

Honestly of all the classes it feels like the warlock had the most effort put into it. It feels like it had 6 subclass instead of three because of those pact chOices are so different from each other.

[Surrealistik]

I'm so glad they got rid of the half damage on a miss invocation; that was some serious bull****.

[Chambers]

Given that at level 20 the Warlock only has 4 spell slots, his power is really dependent on how often he gets short rests.

This is a pretty important point. The Warlock is unique among the casters in that the Warlocks day long spellcasting power requires short rests. This will impact adventure design, as designers must account for the Warlocks need for short rests in order to compete favorably with the other casters (when comparing spell casting power throughout the day).

[Zeuel]

Honestly of all the classes it feels like the warlock had the most effort put into it. It feels like it had 6 subclass instead of three because of those pact chOices are so different from each other.

I completely 100% agree. I also think they have the most class specific spells as well.

[CyberThread]

This is a pretty important point. The Warlock is unique among the casters in that the Warlocks day long spellcasting power requires short rests. This will impact adventure design, as designers must account for the Warlocks need for short rests in order to compete favorably with the other casters (when comparing spell casting power throughout the day).


Invocations, (ritual magic if you choose it ) , and arcanum mysteries are a big thing also, expanding the list from 4, to well 8 plus whatever lil invocations you choose. I personally would not choose any of the invocations that grant you spells to expand your spell slot with, rather choose the ones that grant you more spells or abilties.

[Chris Robin R2]

To put this into better perspective, let's start from the beginning. Infernal Tome Warlock as an example.

LV1, he will have 1 spell slot and 2 spells known. He will have 2 cantrips. He will have Dark One's Blessing.
LV2, he gains an extra spell known and slot, for 3 and 2 total. He gains 2 invocations.
LV3, he gains his Pact Boon, so he will have 5 cantrips. He gains an extra spell known. His slots raise to 2nd level spells, but he still only has 2 of them.

Skipping a bit, Spell Slots stays at 2 up until LV11, when it becomes 3. It hits it's highest at LV17 with 4. He also gains Mystic Arcanum (6th) at LV11, increasing it every other level.

Looking to the level before, LV10. He has 7 cantrips, 10 spells known, 2 slots of 5th level, and 5 invocations. He has Dark One's Blessing, Dark One's Own Luck, and Fiendish Resilience. With 5 invocations, it doesn't seem unreasonable to have Agonizing Blast, Book of Ancient Secrets, Eldritch Spear, and Repelling Blast. That gives you the only Tome invocation as well as all the Eldritch Blast ones. It leaves one free for whatever you want.

Again, while I wouldn't say it is a bad class, it's power will vary wildly by how often the DM gives short rests. Which will likely vary by how long the DM wants them to take.

[HorridElemental]

So my warlock gets to grab a few Cantrips from any spell list. What are some suggestions outside of basic? By the next game day I'll have my PHB but until then I'm stuck using a friend's (who is using it currently haha).

[Chambers]

So my warlock gets to grab a few Cantrips from any spell list. What are some suggestions outside of basic? By the next game day I'll have my PHB but until then I'm stuck using a friend's (who is using it currently haha).

Here's a listing (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17911697&postcount=17) of the other classes attack cantrips that you could pick up. Useful mainly if you want to deal a specific type of energy damage or want the secondary effect. My top pull would be Vicious Mockery for the Disadvantage it imposes.

[Serafina]

(Assuming you are talking about Tome Pact)
Shillelagh allows you to use your spellcasting stat (Charisma) instead of Strength for hit and damage when using a club or quarterstaff, as well as boosting their damage to D8.
That makes for a very good melee combatant on that basis alone.

Guidance and Resistance are useful minor buffs you.
Druidcraft and Thaumaturgy can be used for any number of things.
Vicious Mockery is a decent debuff, imposing disadvantage on a single enemy attack roll.
Light or Dancing Lights are something basic a Warlock normally can't do.
Thorn Whip does decent damage and can pull an enemy toward you.
Message can be very useful to have.

Any other attack cantrips are not worth it, since Eldrich Blast is stricly superior even without Agonizing Blast (and even better with it).

[Hydra98]

I plan on playing a warlock with an archfey pact with tome but i would like to know if the other options for pacts or patrons and which is better for each situation

[Giant2005]

Could you please expand your Patrons information a bit to include some fluff? Noobs like me have a much harder time choosing as the information in the book isn't specific enough for my needs.
Basically, to me the most important difference between the patrons is which of them is the least evil option. I don't actually know which that is...

[shadisky]

Could you please expand your Patrons information a bit to include some fluff? Noobs like me have a much harder time choosing as the information in the book isn't specific enough for my needs.
Basically, to me the most important difference between the patrons is which of them is the least evil option. I don't actually know which that is...

Archfey is probably your best bet, seeing as the Seelie are explicitly "not bad". Great Old One is Cthuloid in nature, and the Fiend is explicitly evil (because demons/devils).

[CyberThread]

am glad my small basic efforts were so well recived :)

[Theodoxus]

My friend decided to switch from Bard to Warlock, primarily because of the archfey aspect. He's a huge Dresden fan, and when he finally got a chance to check out warlock, he fell in love with the fey.

He's also going Pact of the Tome - and also agonizing over which cantrips to take... I'll throw him at the ideas presented.

Thanks!

[Giant2005]

Archfey is probably your best bet, seeing as the Seelie are explicitly "not bad". Great Old One is Cthuloid in nature, and the Fiend is explicitly evil (because demons/devils).

Thanks! That just made my most troubling decision so much easier.

[EvilAnagram]

Thanks! That just made my most troubling decision so much easier.

Remember that the Seelie are not to be trifled with. They do not lie, but they will gladly deceive and if they desire your suffering they will have it.

[Hydra98]

Eh can anyone tell me the best build to run on a warlock since I plan on playing in the new dragon module.
I am currently building a half elf because it is the best race in my opinion but can anyone help out with a spell list and such that is more detailed than the guide

[shadisky]

That depends on what you want your warlock to do.

If you want to look more like a mage and less like a ranger/gish, go with the pact of the tome and pick the sage background. Your pact is less important in this case, but I think the pact of the fiend will not be that useful to you.

If you want to play an arcane archer type of character, you can go with the variant human to pick up the spell sniper feat (grabbing vicious mockery from this feat isn't a bad idea, either) and then taking eldritch blast and the invocation eldritch spear which gets doubled* to 600' as well as the feat that lets you add your Cha to damage on EB. Pick up the Archfey pact of the chain and you'll look a heck of a lot like a ranger.

Alternatively, you can play a pretty effective Gish by going with a Fiendish pact of the blade, grabbing armor of shadows and fiendish vigor invocations, you're probably going to want to have your pactblade be a rapier and have dex be your secondary stat.


edit: these two effects do actually stack as it turns out

[Falka]

They do. In fact, I got a Warlock in my party who RPs as a fiend hunter specialized in long distance sniping.

[Caelic]

Remember that the Seelie are not to be trifled with. They do not lie, but they will gladly deceive and if they desire your suffering they will have it.

A friend of mine once said, "C'mon, how scary can faeries be?"

This was at the start of a session where I was slated to NPC as Amadan na Briona.

He hasn't asked that question since.

[shadisky]

That is the best thing to hear, I really liked that little combo. Also, is it just me or does it seem like the warlock is the most martial friendly of the "mage" classes? since most of their power comes back on a short rest or just never leaves in the first place? Forgetting the fact that the short rest is arbitrarily long (15 minutes should be long enough for a short rest, I feel) it is nice that warlocks essentially get fully charged after one, like battlemasters do.

[EvilAnagram]

A friend of mine once said, "C'mon, how scary can faeries be?"
That is the worst question you could ever ask. Every game with the fair folk necessarily becomes a horror story because your strength doesn't matter when you can't trust the world around you.


This was at the start of a session where I was slated to NPC as Amadan na Briona.

He hasn't asked that question since.
Ha! That's just mean.

The best I ever did with the fey was when my adventurers were walking through the forest and found a little boy. He said he couldn't find his parents and was lost in the woods. From the description the boy gave, they concluded that he'd been kidnapped by elves, possibly slavers.

Later on the found a little girl running through the forest in an outdated little Victorian dress. They asked her where her parents were, and she said in the ground. They asked if there were any people in the woods who matched the description the boy gave, and her face grew very serious, and she said, "Oh, yes. They are the pretty folk. This is their forest." After more questions she wouldn't say anything else, other than that she lived nearby, so they asked her if she would like to go to town with them. She said, "I would very much like to walk with you," clapping her hands and giggling. She fell in beside the boy and told him he had pretty eyes.

That night, they set up camp and set a watch (because they know me). The female fighter in the group roomed with the girl, while they let the boy have the ranger's tent while he was on watch. The ranger passed his perception check and heard something from the boy's tent. He snuck up to it and heard giggling inside. It was just the little girl. He was about to leave when I had him make another check. He passed. He smelled blood.

He drew his swords and nudged the tent open. The inside was drenched in blood, the boy's body a gory mess. The little girl sat beside him giggling without a drop on her. As he watched, she popped his eyeball into her mouth and bit down, the bloody mess dribbling onto her chin. She looked at the ranger and said, "I'm so sorry, sir. Did you want to play our game?"

My group does not like faerie stories.

[Laringar]

To me, the power of Hex isn't just that it gives bonus damage. It also allows you to give Disadvantage to ALL ability checks with a given ability to that target. Unless I misread something, attacking is an ability check with (generally) strength or dex. So you can give the Big Bad disadvantage on hitting anyone. Or if I did misread, and attacking isn't an ability check, maybe you'd like to give said Big Bad disadvantage on Wisdom checks, to set it up to fail a Hold Person from the Bard. I've also used it to help the druid Charm our way out of some animal encounters.

To make it better, Hex is a Bonus Action spell. So you still get your full turn when you cast it. And the spellcasting rules specifically state that on a turn you cast a bonus action, you can still cast a cantrip. So you can Hex and Eldritch Blast on the same turn. At L2, I've devastated a few enemies by getting a crit off during a surprise round. 2d10+2d6+3 damage is niiice. (Eldritch+Hex+Agonizing Blast)

If you'd rather be defensive as a gish, take the Devil's Sight invocation to give you Drow-level Darkvision that sees through magical darkness. Then cast Darkness on your robes. Congrats, enemies now have Disadvantage to hit you, unless they have Truesight or some way to dispel your darkness. Plus, you get Advantage to hit them. However, it does mean your allies have a hard time firing into the fray if you close to melee.

I see the warlock as being very powerful in the mid game, though I worry about the late game, with your 6-9th spell "slots" (Because they aren't even actually spell slots) all being once a day and never changeable. If I'm incredibly limited in my high level slots and never get to change them or even use them for lower-level spells, at least let me cast them more than once a day. :(

[ambartanen]

You are misreading. Neither attack rolls nor saves are actually ability checks so neither of those applications would work but maybe getting an attack off in the surprise round lets you give the big bad a disadvantage on dexterity checks giving it a disadvantage on initiative in the first round? Also a good thing to have if someone in your party likes grappling or perhaps if you are using detect thoughts in an interrogation. The ability check disadvantage has some interesting uses but they are a lot less common and powerful than it seems at first.

[Laringar]

Ah, okay I did misread then, thanks for the correction.

Initiative and grapple still seem like decent uses, though.

I can also see Hexing an enemy rogue if you get the chance, borking his stealth rolls.

[Snowbluff]

When does eldritch knight get the ability to cast a cantrip with an attack? It sounds to me that would be a nice dip for Pact blade, where you attack twice then follow up with an Eldritch Blast. War Caster would be a sweet feat to add to this combo, and I don't think you would need to worry about grabbing the moderately armored feat.

I'm playing a Tome Warlock in a game right now. I haven't done much past stealing the legs off of the oxen that drove our carriage.

Moderately Armored and Warcaster are pretty good feats.

[Surrealistik]

When does eldritch knight get the ability to cast a cantrip with an attack? It sounds to me that would be a nice dip for Pact blade, where you attack twice then follow up with an Eldritch Blast. War Caster would be a sweet feat to add to this combo, and I don't think you would need to worry about grabbing the moderately armored feat.

I'm playing a Tome Warlock in a game right now. I haven't done much past stealing the legs off of the oxen that drove our carriage.

Moderately Armored and Warcaster are pretty good feats.

AFB right now, but I'm pretty sure that the invocation that allows you to attack twice with the Pact Blade only works with the Attack action; the max you can do is blast 4 times and make a bonus action attack.

[Telwar]

and the Fiend is explicitly evil (because demons/devils).

Which doesn't mean that *you* have to be evil. It probably helps, but in the event that our DM forces us to switch our 4e Al Qadim game to 5e, and I can't convince him otherwise/get his fiancee to convince him in OTHER ways, my tiefling elementalist sorcerer (whose back history includes having his soul sold before birth to no less than three different primordials*) would best map to Fiend pact warlock. Because FIRE FIRE FIRE FIRE.



* - By his mother, his father, *and* the village pediatrician. If it helps, his village is rather similar to a town in a mid-80s soap opera. I even specified an international airport.

[Hydra98]

Mhmm out of all the elderich invocations which are the best ones for a fey/tome warlock to take?
Other than the tome ritual bonus because that's a given.

[Logosloki]

I'm thinking of making an warlock BBEG. Now, correct me if I am not reading this right but if I was to make a Warlock 4/Sorcerer 3 with the spell sniper feat I would be able to make a Distant Spell Sniper Eldritch Spear, which gives me either a 900 (300+300+300) or 1200ft spell (300*4)?

Level doesn't matter too much as I don't plan on letting them fight her, if they manage to win the campaign they will be getting her confession in an interrogation room and she'll just cave like they do on the shows since the campaign is D&D NCIS.

I will be fleshing her out so that if they do manage to somehow fight her she will be able to take care of herself, probably focus more on getting her a skillset for escape though rather than kill them. The archetype for the character is the lone sniper with a grudge against nobles and the team is investigating a series of murders in the town where the victims all have blunt force trauma.

[Surrealistik]

1200 feet.

Remember to give her Quicken and/or Twin Spell as these both work wonderfully (abusively) with Eldritch Blast.

[GenericFighter]

There's something that's been bugging me with the warlock for a while and this looks like a good place to find an answer. Why does the warlock spell list go to 9th level when they cannot learn spells over 5th level?

[Logosloki]

1200 feet.

Remember to give her Quicken and/or Twin Spell as these both work wonderfully (abusively) with Eldritch Blast.

I'm thinking Distant and Subtle. As she is level 3 on the sorcerer side she only gets two metamagic abilities and those two fit the theme better (lone sniper with a grudge). I'm still working on fleshing out the backstory and the fiddly bits on the stats and what not.

I'm thinking half-elf for race at the moment and draconic and fiend for the subclasses as that fits the setting. Draconic Sorcerers are a common sight on the battlefield, having replaced siege equipment in most cases and Fiends and the lower realm are something they will find out about if they decide they are done playing Magical NCIS.

[Logosloki]

There's something that's been bugging me with the warlock for a while and this looks like a good place to find an answer. Why does the warlock spell list go to 9th level when they cannot learn spells over 5th level?

Later on as a warlock you learn an arcane secret, this is a level 6, 7, 8 and 9 spell that you can cast once per long rest. So as a warlock you get at level 17 four 5th level slots that recharge on a short rest and one each of 6,7,8 and 9 slots that recharge on a long rest. As well as those slots you get cantrips and invocations, some which recharge on a long rest to some that are at wills.

[pwykersotz]

1200 feet.

Remember to give her Quicken and/or Twin Spell as these both work wonderfully (abusively) with Eldritch Blast.

I feel they were remiss in not including the "two doublings is a tripling" rule. I wonder if that will be put in, or if it was too clunky for them? It's certainly not RAW, but if they don't, I might say only one multiplier can be applied like that in general. Stacking in that way is almost certainly not part of the intended design.

Or maybe it doesn't really matter. There's not an awful lot of change between 300 feet and 1200 feet, as line of sight tends to matter and it's easy to get total cover at that distance. I dunno...it's early and my mind is still a bit foggy.

[Snowbluff]

We need a comprehensive list of Rituals for this guide.

[CyberThread]

We need a comprehensive list of Rituals for this guide.


I hate you....

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?365822-Alphabetical-list-of-ritual-spells

[Sir_Leorik]

Could you please expand your Patrons information a bit to include some fluff? Noobs like me have a much harder time choosing as the information in the book isn't specific enough for my needs.
Basically, to me the most important difference between the patrons is which of them is the least evil option. I don't actually know which that is...


Archfey is probably your best bet, seeing as the Seelie are explicitly "not bad". Great Old One is Cthuloid in nature, and the Fiend is explicitly evil (because demons/devils).

The Archfey Patron is as likely to be Evil as the other two, since Hags, the Queen of Air and Darkness (and other Unseelie Fey) and theoretically the master of the Wild Hunt or the Fomorians from 4E, could all be your patron.

Instead of saying that your character is Evil because of their choice of Patron, maybe your character inherited their Pact with Asmodeus, Graz'zt or the Oinoloth. Maybe your PC figures you can find a way to cheat Orcus, or maybe you consider Prince Levistus or Kostchie the Deathless to be a lesser Evil than Tiamat or Lolth. Maybe you grew up in the Lost City, worshiping Zargon, or you were a slave of the Neogi, and turned to the Pale One to escape their clutches. Or maybe your character was tricked by the Fiend or Great Old One you know serve. There's nothing in the rules forbidding a Lawful or Good character from being a Warlock, even one with a Hag, Devil or Nyarlathotep, the Crawling Chaos, as the PC's patron.

As for which option is the least Evil? You should choose Titania Queen of the Seelie Fey, Oberon, her consort, Lady Tiandra, Queen of Summer (see the 4E Manual of the Planes for more on the "Eladrin Lords" who make great Archfey Patrons); A'Kin the Friendly Fiend, an Arcanaloth who lives in Sigil and is True Neutral; Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Cross-Trade, another Arcanaloth living in Sigil, who is definitely not friendly; Rule-of-Threes, a Cambion who poses as a Githzerai sage, also living in Sigil; Dispater, who is a pretty honorable fellow, for a Devil; Graz'zt is also pretty much a "lesser Evil" type, among Demon Princes; and finally, if you're tired of lesser Evils, why not go with Great Cthulhu? :smallbiggrin:

[Logosloki]

I would opine that a warlock themselves should never be lawful at a table I am running but that would be because I weave a persons class into the story. This means that during a campaign, from time to time a warlock would be called upon by their patron to do their bidding. The entities listed mostly value personal freedom, are bidden to or are forces of nature or are uncaring entities who may not even be aware that they have made such a pact in the first place.

I could see someone playing a lawful warlock under the circumstances of making a pact to a lawful fiend or to a jinnī. A fey example would be someone who wants to explore playing an otherwise lawful character who is under the bidding of a creature of the fey, an old archetype that I do love from the epics and from fables and folklore which has seen a resurgence with the modern fantasy genre. Simon from the Mortal Instruments series being a good example of the sort of shenanigans I would be pulling, at the start.

[Sir_Leorik]

I would opine that a warlock themselves should never be lawful at a table I am running but that would be because I weave a persons class into the story. This means that during a campaign, from time to time a warlock would be called upon by their patron to do their bidding. The entities listed mostly value personal freedom, are bidden to or are forces of nature or are uncaring entities who may not even be aware that they have made such a pact in the first place.

I could see someone playing a lawful warlock under the circumstances of making a pact to a lawful fiend or to a jinnī. A fey example would be someone who wants to explore playing an otherwise lawful character who is under the bidding of a creature of the fey, an old archetype that I do love from the epics and from fables and folklore which has seen a resurgence with the modern fantasy genre. Simon from the Mortal Instruments series being a good example of the sort of shenanigans I would be pulling, at the start.

Just because the Warlock's Otherworldly Patron is non-Lawful doesn't mean the Warlock herself can't be Lawful. A Lawful Good Warlock trying to subvert the whims of the Queen of Air and Darkness, Graz'zt or Tharizdun, is a great archetype.

Why would a Lawful Good character become a Warlock? Desperation, for one reason. Inheriting the power is another. Being tricked by the Otherworldly Patron, who depicts herself as a benign force, when she's really a Hag, Pit Fiend or creature from the Fifth Dimension. There are a lot of roleplaying opportunities waiting to be explored there.

[Logosloki]

Just because the Warlock's Otherworldly Patron is non-Lawful doesn't mean the Warlock herself can't be Lawful. A Lawful Good Warlock trying to subvert the whims of the Queen of Air and Darkness, Graz'zt or Tharizdun, is a great archetype.

Why would a Lawful Good character become a Warlock? Desperation, for one reason. Inheriting the power is another. Being tricked by the Otherworldly Patron, who depicts herself as a benign force, when she's really a Hag, Pit Fiend or creature from the Fifth Dimension. There are a lot of roleplaying opportunities waiting to be explored there.

I see you can your reading comprehension is strong. It is almost like I devoted an entire second paragraph to what you stated or something.

What I am worried about is that in a serious campaign a player will be doing their patrons bidding. They will be handed tasks their patron expects to be done, failure to do so (either by failing, refusing or not figuring out a way to do the will of their patron and stay within their own goals) will have consequences for both the player, their class progression and the campaign at large. In a one-shot, a short or a joke campaign I'm not going to be too worried about it though (I have run in the past an order of kobold paladins which we occasionally do one-shots or short campaigns with so I am not adverse to badwrongfun or actually relaxing).

[Shadow]

Remember to give her Quicken and/or Twin Spell*** as these both work wonderfully (abusively) with Eldritch Blast.

*** if your DM allows it, which he shouldn't if he's remotely intelligent

[Surrealistik]

*** if your DM allows it, which he shouldn't if he's remotely intelligent

Please.

The RAW is ambiguous at _worst_; it technically allows Twinning EB so long as it has a single target. I don't know why you're on such a crusade about this.

[Logosloki]

Please.

The RAW is ambiguous at _worst_; it technically allows Twinning EB so long as it has a single target. I don't know why you're on such a crusade about this.

Well, if we are going to RAW then you can twin it between levels 1 and 4 but at level 5 you lose the ability to twin it. Outside of a serious campaign, I might allow it as a limit break ability because I think a level 20 pumping all of their sorcery points into an eldritch blast for some "final attack" sounds epic. That's Macross Beam Attack level right there.

[randomodo]

I don't have a problem with warlocks being lawful. It depends on their ethos and behavior to greater extent than who their patron is. There are plenty of options for someone to be tricked into giving an oath - and who better to stick to an oath (even one given under false pretenses) than a lawful character?

That being said, your table equals your rules, so not a big deal.

(I'm considering playing a half-orc fiend blade warlock, but that's another story...)

[Snowbluff]

Wouldn't it be better for a ranged DPR to be a Sorc with Spell Sniper (EB)?

EDIT: You would want at least 2 levels of Warlock for Agonzing Bast and darkvision or pushing.

[Sir_Leorik]

I see you can your reading comprehension is strong. It is almost like I devoted an entire second paragraph to what you stated or something.

What I am worried about is that in a serious campaign a player will be doing their patrons bidding. They will be handed tasks their patron expects to be done, failure to do so (either by failing, refusing or not figuring out a way to do the will of their patron and stay within their own goals) will have consequences for both the player, their class progression and the campaign at large. In a one-shot, a short or a joke campaign I'm not going to be too worried about it though (I have run in the past an order of kobold paladins which we occasionally do one-shots or short campaigns with so I am not adverse to badwrongfun or actually relaxing).

I think that any consequences for failing to obey your Patron should take place in the campaign, not via game mechanics. Zargon sends his Cynidicean Cultists to arrest the PC for crimes against the Lost City; the Green Hag Patron assumes the form of a kidnapped princess, and when the PCs come to rescue her from Ogres, she berates the Warlock PC in front of the others; A'Kin the Friendly Fiend cancels the Warlock PC's 5% discount card (A'Kin really needed those printing plates for his underground manifesto). I don't think a DM should announce: well you disobeyed your Otherworldly Patron, now you can't advance as a Warlock anymore. That's not the spirit of 5E. Besides the fact that none of the Patrons (except maybe Asmodeus and Tharizdun) are remotely omniscient, it is more interesting to make the player have to outwit her Warlock's Patron than to slap the player's wrist for making an interesting PC.

[ambartanen]

Please.

The RAW is ambiguous at _worst_ best;

FTFY

You really need to completely ignore context and kinda squint at the rules to argue eldritch blast is twinnable. If your DM let's you do it for some reason, more power to you.

[Surrealistik]

Well, if we are going to RAW then you can twin it between levels 1 and 4 but at level 5 you lose the ability to twin it. Outside of a serious campaign, I might allow it as a limit break ability because I think a level 20 pumping all of their sorcery points into an eldritch blast for some "final attack" sounds epic. That's Macross Beam Attack level right there.


FTFY

You really need to completely ignore context and kinda squint at the rules to argue eldritch blast is twinnable. If your DM let's you do it for some reason, more power to you.

Nonsense.

No 'squinting' is required.

All it asks is that you twin a spell with a single target; it doesn't ask whether that spell can only ever have a single target. Therefore, if the spell (Eldritch Blast in this case) only has a single target at the time you cast it, it technically fulfills that requirement. If you want to settle this decisively, get the word of god to come down on your side; until then your opinion on how this works isn't definitive.

[Snowbluff]

I concur.

Also, is it just me are the first 10 levels of warlock WAY better than the last 10, relative to other classes?

[Surrealistik]

Losing out on 2 more per short rest spell slots and Mystic Arcanum (and thus a level 9 spell slot) sucks, but I'd say you're probably right about that in balance, if only because their capstone is so laughably underwhelming.

[Snowbluff]

Losing out on 2 more per short rest spell slots and Mystic Arcanum (and thus a level 9 spell slot) sucks, but I'd say you're probably right about that in balance, if only because their capstone is so laughably underwhelming.

You go from "I get a some spells of max level that I get back on a short rest" to "I have 1 max level spell I get on a long rest," IIRC. D:

Don't get me wrong, though. True Polymorph is awesome.

*ahem*
We'll be needing a list of good CR 9 creatures to make from rings, and higher level creatures to make yourself when you're done being a warlock.
*casts Summon Cyberthread*

[Shadow]

Please.

The RAW is ambiguous at _worst_; it technically allows Twinning EB so long as it has a single target. I don't know why you're on such a crusade about this.

You stated it as if it were an unambiguous decision for character build.
I'm merely pointing out that it is indeed ambiguous enough to possibly create a point of contention with your DM.
The rules lawyers will contend that twinning a multitarget spell which only currently targets a single creature is ok by RAW, while it is very clearly a case of RAI meaning single target spells, which are different from multitarget spells currently only targetting a single creature. And in this edition, RAI as interpreted by your DM is more important than RAW as interpreted by player.

***Do not roll this character without first speaking to your DM on the matter, or you may very well be disappointed when you reach level five.

[pwykersotz]

Nonsense.

No 'squinting' is required.

All it asks is that you twin a spell with a single target; it doesn't ask whether that spell can only ever have a single target. Therefore, if the spell (Eldritch Blast in this case) only has a single target at the time you cast it, it technically fulfills that requirement. If you want to settle this decisively, get the word of god to come down on your side; until then your opinion on how this works isn't definitive.

But in our opinion, neither is yours. :smallwink:

There's two ways of reading: "When you cast a spell that targets only one creature and doesn't have a range of self"

Either the spell only targets one creature or you only target one creature. If it's the spell, Eldritch Blast is disqualified because it inherently has multiple targets (at 5th level or after). If it's you, then Eldritch Blast qualifies as long as you focus fire.

I think the crux of what a lot of us are pointing out is that it seems silly (and marginally abusive) to change how metamagic and magic interact based on where you direct your targeted beams. If you can Twin Eldritch Blast, why not have it be twin-able all the time? Why should the semantics of where you target each of the four blasts matter? It doesn't compute for us. Or at least for me.

[Shadow]

snip

yep
Which is pretty much exactly what I said here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18060817&postcount=104).

[Surrealistik]

To tell the truth, I'm not too invested either way, but anyone who would claim that there's only one valid interpretation of the Twin metamagic rule is, until Mearls weighs in on the issue, wrong, and I would appreciate it if people would stop misrepresenting their personal viewpoint as being the definitive truth (I at least accept the fact that there's an alternate interpretation, even if my sense of the RAW is that it does technically permit Twinning a single target EB), whether it's backed by the RAI or not; that's the main thing so far as I'm concerned.

[Shadow]

I would appreciate it if people would stop misrepresenting their personal viewpoint as being the definitive truth

Youi mean like you did? At which point I merely pointed out that it wasn't, in fact, definitive?
Yep.

[Surrealistik]

Youi mean like you did? At which point I merely pointed out that it wasn't, in fact, definitive?
Yep.

Except for the part where I didn't; I have never denied the existence of two interpretations or the ambiguity of the rules despite the strength of my views on which of the two is correct per the RAW, which is more than can be said for some people of the opposing camp on this matter.

[Shadow]

Except for the part where I didn't; I have never denied the existence of two interpretations, which is more than can be said for some people of the opposing camp on this matter.

This was a definitive statement (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?366106-5e-Warlock-The-Basics/page3&p=18065923#post18065923). There were no allowances made for interpretations.
So, yes, you did.
I made sure to clarify that there was indeed enough ambiguity that you needed to speak to your DM about it.

[Surrealistik]

This was a definitive statement (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?366106-5e-Warlock-The-Basics/page3&p=18065923#post18065923). There were no allowances made for interpretations.
So, yes, you did.
I made sure to clarify that there was indeed enough ambiguity that you needed to speak to your DM about it.

Are you seriously suggesting I should, in every single instance when mentioning the perceived synergy between EB and Twin, state that there's a rules ambiguity and an alternate interpretation?

Don't be ridiculous; I'm not about to add a line of disclaimers whenever something like this comes up.

[Shadow]

Are you seriously suggesting I should, in every single instance when mentioning the perceived synergy between EB and Twin, state that there's a rules ambiguity and an alternate interpretation?

Don't be ridiculous; I'm not about to add a line of disclaimers whenever something like this comes up.

Right.
Because instead, you would rather offer your personal viewpoint as to how the two interact, advising someone to "remember" that they use it, almost as if your viewpoint represented the definitive truth.

But you "would appreciate it if people would stop misrepresenting their personal viewpoint as being the definitive truth"

Right. I get it now. Sorry for the confusion.

[Surrealistik]

Right.
Because instead, you would rather offer your personal viewpoint as to how the two interact, advising someone to "make sure" that they use it, almost as if your viewpoint represented the definitive truth.

But you "would appreciate it if people would stop misrepresenting their personal viewpoint as being the definitive truth"

Right. I get it now. Sorry for the confusion.

At worst that's only an implicit take away. Further, that was not in any way the intent of the post; I was simply presenting and encouraging the use of a synergy I believe to be existent regardless of the fact that there are alternative interpretations. That I did not go out of my way to acknowledge those alternatives doesn't mean I attempted to misrepresent my viewpoint as definitive truth.

I'm done with this exchange and your hostility.

[Messenger25]

Not college of valor bard? Or Eldritch Knight Fighter?

Nope! 1 level dip into Cleric with War Domain. Heavy Armor Prof, Martial Weapon Prof, Wis/Cha saves, Radiant damage cantrip, Healing spells (which can be used in those nice, high level Warlock slots), then straight Bladelock. I took Fiend as patron, with a homebrew variant that's all lightning instead of fire, but no other differences. I'm running around in the front lines of our group with chain mail, a maul (which I get two attacks per attack action with, thanks to Pact Blade). The only thing I'll lose is Eldritch Mastery at level 20, but honestly, my spellcasting is not a primary focus. Still, with Agonizing Blast Invocation at 8th character level, my EB dishes a potential 2d10+10 force damage, I can drop a 2d8 radiant cantrip at will for undead and demons. Little things like Spare the Dying cantrip keeps my party alive in a pinch, and I can choose any weapon for the situation if I don't bind an ACTUAL weapon to be my pact blade. Living the Gish life.

[CrusaderJoe]

One of my favorite multiclassing options for the warlock is actually the barbarian.


Barbarian 8 (Totem)/Warlock 12 (Blade Pact)

(1d12 + 5 Str + 5 Cha + 3 rage)*2
Attack with advantage
Hex (1d6)*2
Good spell list (not the greatest but pretty damn good).
Edit: I think the average damage is somewhere around 40, with advantage you will probably hit most rounds.



3 "5th" level slots, 11 spells known (+expanded spells), 6 invocations (thirsting blade is useless), 3 of 4 pact boons... Never lose your magic weapon and change your weapon whenever you want.

Feral instinct, fast movement, danger sense...

ASIs = 2 Barbarian + 3 Warlock, plenty of them.

Makes for an awesome combo.

[CyberThread]

Oooo am still popular?

[CyberThread]

Have you fun treating them as a magical bow ranger