Spellweaver + Sorcerer levels = What?

[Hazrond]

OK so i read through the spellweaver from MM2 after coming across it in the random encounters articles and im now severely confused as to what happens if they take levels in sorcerer :smallconfused:

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Anything in a monster entry that refers to 'hit dice' only counts racial hit dice, by RAI. However, note that the Spell Weaver's advancement entry is by racial HD, not by class levels, so you should only ever add additional racial HD to it. As a Monsterous Humanoid, it gains +1 CR per +3 HD added (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#advancedMonsterChallengeRati ng), so for example at 16 HD it would be a CR 12 monster with Sorcerer 18 spellcasting.

Per the 3.5 Update Booklet (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20030718a), a Spell Weaver has a +7 LA, and since racial HD aren't optional it would be an ECL 17 PC with only Sorcerer 12 spellcasting, so it's not really worth making a character out of. If you want to cheese a PC with higher-than-normal Sorcerer spellcasting, make a Hatchling Phaerimm from the last few pages of the Player's Guide to Faerun Monster Update (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20040313a). That's 1 HD and +2 LA, and its one HD should get replaced by your first class level.

[Jack_Simth]

Anything in a monster entry that refers to 'hit dice' only counts racial hit dice, by RAI. Rules-As-Intended: Most probably.

Rules-As-Written: It's stupid, but it really does specify Hit Dice - which Per Monsters As Races (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monstersAsRaces.htm#hitDice) "...equal the number of class levels it has plus its racial Hit Dice."

So by the (rather poorly thought-out) RAW? A Spell Weaver with no levels of Sorcerer casts as a Sorcerer-12. A Spell Weaver with 3 levels of Sorcerer casts as 18 (15 for hit dice, +3 for actual Sorcerer levels).

Of course, it's a particularly egregious critter, even by default, as it's a CR-10 that casts as a Sorcerer-12.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Rules-As-Intended: Most probably.

Rules-As-Written: It's stupid, but it really does specify Hit Dice - which Per Monsters As Races (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monstersAsRaces.htm#hitDice) "...equal the number of class levels it has plus its racial Hit Dice."

So by the (rather poorly thought-out) RAW? A Spell Weaver with no levels of Sorcerer casts as a Sorcerer-12. A Spell Weaver with 3 levels of Sorcerer casts as 18 (15 for hit dice, +3 for actual Sorcerer levels).

Of course, it's a particularly egregious critter, even by default, as it's a CR-10 that casts as a Sorcerer-12.

Even the benefits of the Half-Fiend template were meant to only count racial HD (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060630a): "Remember that HD for determining spell resistance means racial HD, not those gained with class levels." It would have helped if the designers would be specific about things like this, but generally any reference to 'hit dice' means racial hit dice, and class levels are only meant to be counted if they're specifically mentioned.

A Spell Weaver with three Sorcerer levels is a CR 13 with 13 HD and Sorcerer 18 spellcasting. A Spell Weaver advanced to 16 HD is a CR 12 with 16 HD and Sorcerer 18 spellcasting. You're better off just advancing it by HD if using it as a monster.

It's a 3.0 monster, when PCs were breaking action economy with Haste. The stronger opponents in MM2 and Fiend Folio were designed around this.

[ahenobarbi]

It would have helped if the designers would be specific about things like this, but generally any reference to 'hit dice' means racial hit dice, and class levels are only meant to be counted if they're specifically mentioned.

If that's true then Sleep (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/sleep.htm) remains effective against enemies advanced by class. Undead with class levels are really easy to turn/debuke. And many other things stop working as expected.

Personally I'll stick with "designers were sloppy, sometimes when they wrote HD when they should have written RHD".

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If that's true then Sleep (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/sleep.htm) remains effective against enemies advanced by class. Undead with class levels are really easy to turn/debuke. And many other things stop working as expected.

Personally I'll stick with "designers were sloppy, sometimes when they wrote HD when they should have written RHD".

I think it's limited to mentions of HD in the various Monster Manuals, not any other books.

[ahenobarbi]

I think it's limited to mentions of HD in the various Monster Manuals, not any other books.

With that limitation it seems to make sense (as in I can't think of any weird consequences right now).

[Thanatosia]

I think it's limited to mentions of HD in the various Monster Manuals, not any other books.
Even that interpretation is dicey as I'm pretty sure a lot of references to HD in Monster Manuals is intended to count character levels.... immunity to a Dragon's Frightful Presence or rather or not a victem turns into a vampire vs a vampire spawn for example.

[Jack_Simth]

Even the benefits of the Half-Fiend template were meant to only count racial HD (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060630a): "Remember that HD for determining spell resistance means racial HD, not those gained with class levels." It would have helped if the designers would be specific about things like this, but generally any reference to 'hit dice' means racial hit dice, and class levels are only meant to be counted if they're specifically mentioned.
That's highly specific to the Half-Fiend, but even with that, at best, that gives probable intent - and if you'll note, I agreed that the intent was most probably for it only to count racial hit dice. They forgot that key word, though, and there are actulaly places in various manuals where they explicitly differentiate - such as the definition for the DC for "Most saving throws against special abilities" on page 6 of the 3.5 MM I, the ability score improvement section on page 290 of the Monster Manual I. Even the Monster Manual II, 3.0 that it is, makes the distinction at one point, on page 21: "Additional Hit Dice from character class never affect a creature's size". So while it most certainly was intended to only reference racial hit dice, they way they actually wrote it doesn't line up.

Edit: Mind you, now that I'm thinking about it, though, with the 3.5 update, and them getting +7 LA, a 20th level character that way is only really very good in Gestalt when the DM lets you put class levels on the opposite side of LA. At 20th, even with the stacking, three levels of Sorcerer would only leave it with Sorcerer-18 casting and a grand total of 13 hit dice in a 20th level game (without Gestalt or some other method of negating the drawbacks, that is).


A Spell Weaver with three Sorcerer levels is a CR 13 with 13 HD and Sorcerer 18 spellcasting. A Spell Weaver advanced to 16 HD is a CR 12 with 16 HD and Sorcerer 18 spellcasting. You're better off just advancing it by HD if using it as a monster.As a monster, yes, although you might want to give it at least one class level anyway, as that gets the Elite Array as a free rider, when it's a +1 CR increase by itself (and two 'nonassociated' class levels are just a one CR bump; Sorcerer would be Associated).

Even that interpretation is dicey as I'm pretty sure a lot of references to HD in Monster Manuals is intended to count character levels.... immunity to a Dragon's Frightful Presence or rather or not a victem turns into a vampire vs a vampire spawn for example.
Or even getting Turned by a Cleric! Those poor classed vampires with no non-racial hit dice (mentioned in the Monster Manual as part of Turn Resistance... just says hit dice).