Warbeast Optimization

[yoshi67]

A conversation started about how to optimize a ranger (lvl 4) and what could be bought to help him. I suggested a dire lion, and got a lot of laughs, until showed everyone the passage in MMII about Warbeasts. According to it, a Dire Lion costs 700gp, easily affordable according to WBL. I know the rules say a ranger can't have a Dire Lion AC at lvl 4, but with Handle Animal and Ride, I don't see anything prohibiting a ranger from simply having one as a mount and commanding one to attack in fights using Handle and having an additional actual Companion (complete with perks) at lvl 5 . So my question is would that fly by RAW, RAI, and if so why don't more people do it/talk about it?

This is theoretical "rules theory" as I know most DMs probably won't allow it.

Edit: I realize "theoretical rules theory" is redundant :smallsmile:

[Rebel7284]

Optimized Handle Animal is a ridiculous skill. I have seen a bunch of COMMONER builds (hey, handle animals as a class skill) raising Rocs ridiculously early.

[Jack_Simth]

A conversation started about how to optimize a ranger (lvl 4) and what could be bought to help him. I suggested a dire lion, and got a lot of laughs, until showed everyone the passage in MMII about Warbeasts. According to it, a Dire Lion costs 700gp, easily affordable according to WBL. I know the rules say a ranger can't have a Dire Lion AC at lvl 4, but with Handle Animal and Ride, I don't see anything prohibiting a ranger from simply having one as a mount and commanding one to attack in fights using Handle and having an additional actual Companion (complete with perks) at lvl 5 . So my question is would that fly by RAW, RAI, and if so why don't more people do it/talk about it?

This is theoretical "rules theory" as I know most DMs probably won't allow it.

Edit: I realize "theoretical rules theory" is redundant :smallsmile:
Well, you've got most of it covered.

The reason it doesn't usually see play?

First: most people don't want to play an animal by proxy. Sure, technically you can apply the Warbeast Template to a Paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/paragonCreature.htm) Legendary Tiger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/legendaryAnimal.htm#) (maximally advanced, of course) for the low low price of 3775 gp ... but if the DM throws things at you that'll challenge that monstrosity, your character is pretty much sidelined (as is the rest of the party). If the DM does not, then you just walk over the campaign.

Second: It can be stolen to pretty extremely detrimental effect. If you get a high-end beast, you're always one Wild Empathy or a Handle Animal check by the DM away from a TPK.

Third: They're not tactical. You get your six tricks and that's it. Sure, you can use them to good effect if you pick them well, but it can cause problems if you don't go first, sometimes (they could react to something inappropriately - you don't want to get the king killed, after all, as that generally means you do not get the bounty you were after).

There's more.

[Forrestfire]

For handle animal optimization, there is always Bubs (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=7097263&postcount=38) and his three battletitans...

Mostly it's not used in real games because it has the potential to be very strong if you optimize enough, but also has the issue of many animals being too weak later on to be useful. Hard to kill a high-level enemy with a pack of wolves, after all.

[glitterbaby]

It kind of sounds like the kind of thing a DM has to explicitly allow to make it happen. Sure, you can pump your Handle Animal through the roof (I don't know how high it actually can go, never optimized for it myself) but where are you going to find these Dire Lions? Are they really keeping a CR 5 Dire Lion at the town zoo? Maybe the king might have one for a pet to pad his ego but that's going to be something the DM has 100% control over (you know what I mean). In one of my campaigns we started at level 5 and one of the players wanted to start with an elephant because he thought it'd be awesome to have an elephant mount. The DM didn't really realize it right away but after our first fight, when the elephant stomped everything before we could do anything, that elephant wasn't around for much longer. You can't just walk in to the stables anymore and buy a CR 7 creature. There was something else I wanted to say but I forgot it as I was typing, gj me.

[yoshi67]

Definitely see how a high Handle Animal at an early level can be gamecrushing good or backfire if the DM doesn't like it. I guess one of the things I don't like about the ranger is the AC progression. It feels wrong to switch out your AC every couple of levels and sort of breaks roleplaying. Also there's the cool factor. Maybe take something awesome like that early on as only a mount, then work your way to it so you already have a history when you can have one as an AC. I also don't like the "Hey guys, I'm gonna go take a walk in the woods, see you tomorrow... Hey I found this bear that likes me so I'm gonna keep it around for a while. That alright?".

[Phelix-Mu]

In b4 Ur-Priest.

Unfortunately, I have seen several convincing RAW arguments that you don't confer Warbeast on a creature with Handle Animal. The phrasing is misleading and hinges on a change in how they described and handled templates/Handle Animal in 3.0. I believe what the entry is trying to say is that, if you have a warbeast dire lion, then that is the cost to rear it.

Essentially, in 3.5 terms, it's an inherited template that's part of a true-breeding line of warbeast whatevers. Ur-Priest's explanation has always been the one that clarified the matter for me, so you might try searching for threads on Warbeast template in which Ur-Priest has posted.

Or just wait. I'm sure someone will turn up to expound on the matter.

[glitterbaby]

In b4 Ur-Priest.

Unfortunately, I have seen several convincing RAW arguments that you don't confer Warbeast on a creature with Handle Animal. The phrasing is misleading and hinges on a change in how they described and handled templates/Handle Animal in 3.0. I believe what the entry is trying to say is that, if you have a warbeast dire lion, then that is the cost to rear it.

Essentially, in 3.5 terms, it's an inherited template that's part of a true-breeding line of warbeast whatevers. Ur-Priest's explanation has always been the one that clarified the matter for me, so you might try searching for threads on Warbeast template in which Ur-Priest has posted.

Or just wait. I'm sure someone will turn up to expound on the matter.

Wow I've never thought about it like that but it makes a ton of sense. Thanks for clearing that up for me!