Unprovable OOTS Therories

[...]

Well, I decided that we needed a place to put our unprovable OOTS theories in the backs of our heads, so here's a thread for it. That's really all I need to say. Happy posting!

[Socksy]

Hannah Bidetsmith is adopted and is Redcloak's niece.

More seriously, I think Laurin could be an Elan. It would be another reason to hide stuff from Hannah, and she would use either a hat of disguise or a mundane disguise kit to look constantly older. She, like Malack, has long-term plans for the area- possibly going to attack the elves and claim the non-desert part of the continent for the humans, probably ensuring plumbing became a noble and well-paid art.

[Darth Paul]

Xykon knows that the replacement phylactery Redcloak gave him is not the real one.

Just a hunch, since he foresaw the whole assassination attempt by Right-Eye and had a counter for that, in fact making it part of his plan.

Xykon is a lot smarter than he acts.

[Super Evil User]

Xykon knows that the replacement phylactery Redcloak gave him is not the real one.

Just a hunch, since he foresaw the whole assassination attempt by Right-Eye and had a counter for that, in fact making it part of his plan.

Xykon is a lot smarter than he acts.

Obligatory:

:xykon: Don't confuse not caring with not knowing.

[Darth Paul]

Obligatory:

:xykon: Don't confuse not caring with not knowing.

The thing that makes it uncertain is; how much has Redcloak compensated for Xykon's known amount of cunning in laying his own counter-counter-counter-plans? Arguably, his dealings with Tsukiko show that Redcloak has himself become a high-level chessmaster. Who's better at playing Xanatos Speed Chess?

[rs2excelsior]

Elves are really all asexual, which is why V doesn't pay much attention to pronouns, didn't notice that Roy was a woman, etc. Marriage is a recent concept that the Elves adopted from other races, which is why V's children use "Parent" and "Other Parent" rather than "Mother" and "Father"--only the word "Parent" exists in the Elven language. Oh, and since they're asexual, Elves reproduce by budding. :smallbiggrin:

[sparkyinbozo]

I still suspect that the MitD is actually Serini in some form or another and that she'll be the one to provide the background exposition behind what the snarl/gates/etc. really are, the acrimony between the Scribble team, and possibly replace Belkar after his quickly-approaching death.

[orrion]

Elves are really all asexual, which is why V doesn't pay much attention to pronouns, didn't notice that Roy was a woman, etc. Marriage is a recent concept that the Elves adopted from other races, which is why V's children use "Parent" and "Other Parent" rather than "Mother" and "Father"--only the word "Parent" exists in the Elven language. Oh, and since they're asexual, Elves reproduce by budding. :smallbiggrin:

I think that one is disproved by Lirian.

[Keltest]

I think that one is disproved by Lirian.

And the existence of half-elves in general.

[Leviting]

Hannah Bidetsmith is adopted and is Redcloak's niece.

More seriously, I think Laurin could be an Elan. It would be another reason to hide stuff from Hannah, and she would use either a hat of disguise or a mundane disguise kit to look constantly older. She, like Malack, has long-term plans for the area- possibly going to attack the elves and claim the non-desert part of the continent for the humans, probably ensuring plumbing became a noble and well-paid art.

Well, Elans do age, it just takes a long time. Elans become venerable at 1000 years, but never actually die after that, unless killed.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Xykon knows that the replacement phylactery Redcloak gave him is not the real one.

Sure, but this is not unprovable, not as such. By the end of the story we will know if Xykon figured this out in advance or not. Of course, it is unprovable now, but the same could be said of every other theory about future events.

Grey Wolf

[ti'esar]

I've always had a half-serious theory that Tarquin is a "fallen" bard - that is, a bard who violated the "bards cannot become lawful" alignment clause. It would tie in with his rant (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0821.html) about how they should be using their knowledge of narrative structure to rule the world instead of singing in taverns, especially because that rant is one of only a few things I've ever seen to actually imply a (parodic) reason for why bards can't be lawful. And it would tie in a lot better to the Darth Vader jokes then the idea that he's a blackguard or other form of fallen paladin would (something I saw people seriously suggest in the past).

[Keltest]

I've always had a half-serious theory that Tarquin is a "fallen" bard - that is, a bard who violated the "bards cannot become lawful" alignment clause. It would tie in with his rant (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0821.html) about how they should be using their knowledge of narrative structure to rule the world instead of singing in taverns, especially because that rant is one of only a few things I've ever seen to actually imply a (parodic) reason for why bards can't be lawful. And it would tie in a lot better to the Darth Vader jokes then the idea that he's a blackguard or other form of fallen paladin would (something I saw people seriously suggest in the past).

That's surprisingly plausible. Id love to see the Giant comment on that.

[dtilque]

The MitD's name is Marty Stu...

[Darth Paul]

Sure, but this is not unprovable, not as such. By the end of the story we will know if Xykon figured this out in advance or not. Of course, it is unprovable now, but the same could be said of every other theory about future events.

Grey Wolf

It might also be said about any other revelation about a character's past that might still be made, any secret that could yet be revealed, etc.

"Unproven" and "unprovable" are almost identical in this context, unless we're using "unprovable" as "not only unproven at this time, but extremely unlikely to be proved at any time in the future as well."

In which case, I have a theory that the MitD was a friend of Sasquatch and the Loch Ness Monster in his youth, both of whom arrived in his world via the Gates before Soon and the Order of the Scribble sealed them up.

Now that's unprovable.

[Peelee]

More seriously, I think Laurin could be an Elan.

.......

I submit that Elan is an Elan, but he's a terrible Elan because he's Elan. Which would make him Elan the Elan with elan.

[CletusMusashi]

The fallen bard thing works, but I say that Tarquin is the son of a bard. He was impressed by his father's grasp of narrative, but not so much by his singing and juggling. Plus, being Lawful Evil, he wasn't able to actually take the class anyway, so he made his own build. Heavier on combat.
Nale was brought up to respect the power of narrative, but not bards. Nale actually could have been an evil bard if he'd wanted to, but since he thought he was lawful he didn't actually try, and went the overly complicated alternate route.

[Socksy]

Well, Elans do age, it just takes a long time. Elans become venerable at 1000 years, but never actually die after that, unless killed.

She would have to be pretty young for an Elan, she has a daughter (unless Hannah is adopted)


.......

I submit that Elan is an Elan, but he's a terrible Elan because he's Elan. Which would make him Elan the Elan with elan.

Is Nale an Elan too, just because he used to be obsessed with the evil opposites theme?

[Jaxzan Proditor]

The fallen bard thing works, but I say that Tarquin is the son of a bard. He was impressed by his father's grasp of narrative, but not so much by his singing and juggling. Plus, being Lawful Evil, he wasn't able to actually take the class anyway, so he made his own build. Heavier on combat.
Nale was brought up to respect the power of narrative, but not bards. Nale actually could have been an evil bard if he'd wanted to, but since he thought he was lawful he didn't actually try, and went the overly complicated alternate route.

So, you are saying that Bard Runs in the Family? :smalltongue:

[Seward]

The Monster in the Darkness is Pun Pun.

Pun Pun can do anything and is all-powerful, he's a recursive 3.5 build abuse that famously provides infinite power at a certain point in the build. But the build requires him to be a fairly normal kobold for several levels. So vast cosmic power but just wants a regular supply of stew.

Only problem with that theory is the Monster seems to be rather large, which Pun Pun isn't unless he's routinely using shapeshift spell 24x7 (which he can do, but it isn't clear why)

[Graustein]

Elves are not biologically asexual, but they have no concept of gender beyond noting that some Elves have one set of parts and some Elves have another set of parts and sex involving these two kinds of Elves leads to reproduction. Other than that, all Elves are Elves, and are a bit bewildered by the obsession other races have with separating people based on what (as far as they're concerned) is basically plumbing. Their relationship styles are more or less similar to those of other races, except not every Elven pair will be able to reproduce, but adoption is common.

Some Elves pick up the idea of gender from other races and try it on for size (following their own interpretations of it; an Elf with what another race might consider female parts deciding that they quite like being a He, actually, or whatever) but not all. V is in this regard pretty much a normal Elf.

[littlebum2002]

More seriously, I think Laurin could be an Elan.

Every time I hear this theory I always think people are saying "Laurin is to her group like Elan is to the OOTS"

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Every time I hear this theory I always think people are saying "Laurin is to her group like Elan is to the OOTS"

I think the exact same thing. Confuses me every time.

[Socksy]

But imagine Elan (as in McTarquinsson) with Laurin's raw psionic power, and the ability to use it somehow. Holy crap that's scary.

[...]

I have one that is completely insane: Shojo awakened Mr. Scruffy, who understands common and is CN.

[orrion]

I have one that is completely insane: Shojo awakened Mr. Scruffy, who understands common and is CN.

O..kay? What does "awakened" mean and why does it matter whether Scruffy understands common or is Chaotic Neutral?

A theory is supposed to explain or justify something. What exactly is this explaining or justifying?

[Jaxzan Proditor]

O..kay? What does "awakened" mean and why does it matter whether Scruffy understands common or is Chaotic Neutral?

It means that Shojo cast Awaken on Mr. Scruffy, which would make him able to speak and have an alignment matching that of the person who awakened him. I don't recall Shojo's alignment.

[Socksy]

It means that Shojo cast Awaken on Mr. Scruffy, which would make him able to speak and have an alignment matching that of the person who awakened him. I don't recall Shojo's alignment.

I think he's Chaotic Good, although I've seen some people saying CN.

[Aedilred]

It means that Shojo cast Awaken on Mr. Scruffy, which would make him able to speak and have an alignment matching that of the person who awakened him. I don't recall Shojo's alignment.

Never outright stated, but non-Lawful. Belkar pegged him as Chaotic Good, which seems fairly likely.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I think he's Chaotic Good, although I've seen some people saying CN.


Never outright stated, but non-Lawful. Belkar pegged him as Chaotic Good, which seems fairly likely.
That's probably what I would assume as well, without any other information.

[orrion]

It means that Shojo cast Awaken on Mr. Scruffy, which would make him able to speak and have an alignment matching that of the person who awakened him. I don't recall Shojo's alignment.

Ok. Now for the other question I asked - what does that explain or justify?

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Ok. Now for the other question I asked - what does that explain or justify?

Beats me. That's probably where the "insane" part comes in.

[ti'esar]

She would have to be pretty young for an Elan, she has a daughter (unless Hannah is adopted)

Well, of course she's adopted, she's a goblin!

:smallcool:

[...]

Beats me. That's probably where the "insane" part comes in.

Insane? Besides, Mr.Scruffy could have changed alignments.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Insane?


I have one that is completely insane...


Besides, Mr.Scruffy could have changed alignments.
I doubt he did anything to switch alignment since The Giant confirmed his alignment as True Neutral.

[orrion]

Insane? Besides, Mr.Scruffy could have changed alignments.

Yeah, you called it insane.

I guess my point is: Why are you calling it a theory when it doesn't do what a theory is supposed to do? Theories are supposed to explain and/or justify things. Even that old horrible "the rift caused everyone to forget Blackwing" theory fit the definition because it attempted to explain some of the Order's behavior.

I can't imagine what behavior or unknowns Mr. Scruffy being "awakened" and having his alignment shifted is supposed to justify, so I'm asking you. If you don't have an answer then I don't think you've got a theory. It becomes just a random statement.

[...]

Yeah, you called it insane.

I guess my point is: Why are you calling it a theory when it doesn't do what a theory is supposed to do? Theories are supposed to explain and/or justify things. Even that old horrible "the rift caused everyone to forget Blackwing" theory fit the definition because it attempted to explain some of the Order's behavior.

I can't imagine what behavior or unknowns Mr. Scruffy being "awakened" and having his alignment shifted is supposed to justify, so I'm asking you. If you don't have an answer then I don't think you've got a theory. It becomes just a random statement.

His behavior, silly.

[orrion]

His behavior, silly.

What behavior? When? Where? How is that behavior different than before in a manner that makes you think the cat changed alignments from an awakening?

[Cartographer7]

I have one that is completely insane: Shojo awakened Mr. Scruffy, who understands common and is CN.

Mr. Scruffy is true neutral by Word of Giant (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?293540-No-love-for-Neutral-alignments-in-OOTS/page2&p=15667889#post15667889).

[Jaxzan Proditor]

His behavior, silly.

What behavior of his is inconsistent with that of a housecat?

[mouser9169]

I've always had a half-serious theory that Tarquin is a "fallen" bard - that is, a bard who violated the "bards cannot become lawful" alignment clause. It would tie in with his rant (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0821.html) about how they should be using their knowledge of narrative structure to rule the world instead of singing in taverns, especially because that rant is one of only a few things I've ever seen to actually imply a (parodic) reason for why bards can't be lawful. And it would tie in a lot better to the Darth Vader jokes then the idea that he's a blackguard or other form of fallen paladin would (something I saw people seriously suggest in the past).

Tarquin's a tough one to figure out. Fighter obviously. He gets his 'trap sense' from somewhere. I can't see him as a civilized barbarian, but anything's possible. Maybe he was a barbarian who became a bard and then a fighter, though we've never seen him do anything remotely spell-like that I can think of.

[breathandpaper]

Yeah, you called it insane.

I guess my point is: Why are you calling it a theory when it doesn't do what a theory is supposed to do? Theories are supposed to explain and/or justify things. Even that old horrible "the rift caused everyone to forget Blackwing" theory fit the definition because it attempted to explain some of the Order's behavior.

I can't imagine what behavior or unknowns Mr. Scruffy being "awakened" and having his alignment shifted is supposed to justify, so I'm asking you. If you don't have an answer then I don't think you've got a theory. It becomes just a random statement.

What Is Your Point? LeT It Be A Random Statement, Then. Shojo Could Have Awakened The Cat, And So We Await The Moment When He Starts Speaking Common.

[breathandpaper]

The Monster in the Darkness is Pun Pun.

Pun Pun can do anything and is all-powerful, he's a recursive 3.5 build abuse that famously provides infinite power at a certain point in the build. But the build requires him to be a fairly normal kobold for several levels. So vast cosmic power but just wants a regular supply of stew.

Only problem with that theory is the Monster seems to be rather large, which Pun Pun isn't unless he's routinely using shapeshift spell 24x7 (which he can do, but it isn't clear why)

As MuCh As I'd LikE It For Mitd To Be A Kobold, He Has Already Met Belkar And caused No Reaction.:P


Well, of course she's adopted, she's a goblin!

:smallcool:

You, Sir, Have Exceeded Your Quota Of Awesome Theories For This Thread. Please Accompany Me To The Exit.

[orrion]

What Is Your Point? LeT It Be A Random Statement, Then. Shojo Could Have Awakened The Cat, And So We Await The Moment When He Starts Speaking Common.

My point is that he wanted this thread to be for theories and not for random statements.

Why are you capitalizing every word?

[breathandpaper]

My point is that he wanted this thread to be for theories and not for random statements.

Why are you capitalizing every word?

I was posting from my phone, I don't know why it does that, but it's a pain to go back and de-capitalize everything, so I just left it as it is.

Would be good for roleplaying Kanaya, though.:smalltongue:

[Peelee]

I was posting from my phone, I don't know why it does that, but it's a pain to go back and de-capitalize everything, so I just left it as it is.

Would be good for roleplaying Kanaya, though.:smalltongue:

Honestly, i didn't care before, but now I'm wondering why letters at the end of words were capitalized, like "MuCh" and "LikE?"

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Honestly, i didn't care before, but now I'm wondering why letters at the end of words were capitalized, like "MuCh" and "LikE?"

And there's that one "caused" that isn't capitalized.

I like how you didn't capitalize that "i" there. :smalltongue:

[Socksy]

Would be good for roleplaying Kanaya, though.:smalltongue:

I've roleplayed Mituna before, on a mobile with autocorrect.
/gross sobbing

[Peelee]

And there's that one "caused" that isn't capitalized.

I like how you didn't capitalize that "i" there. :smalltongue:

Amusingly, I'm also going with the "phone" excuse. For the record, i did correct three instances of incorrect Swipe prediction (and two in this post as well). I just noticed it tends to not capitalize that personal pronoun.

[Darth Paul]

Does this thread now belong in the Grumpy Technology forum?

[DaggerPen]

Amusingly, I'm also going with the "phone" excuse. For the record, i did correct three instances of incorrect Swipe prediction (and two in this post as well). I just noticed it tends to not capitalize that personal pronoun.

Huh, weird. I find that mine is really good about capitalizing "I" and adding in missed apostrophes (though it corrects 'its' to 'it's' inappropriately sometimes), but for some reason it always adds a space around my hyphens, which is intensely frustrating.

Er, right, back on topic - what exactly do we mean by "unprovable"? Any theory could technically be proven by Rich, so are we talking theories that probably won't be confirmed either way, or theories that we don't currently have any real evidence for but have a gut feeling about?

[veti]

Ooh, time to dust off this one from debates past:

Celia was Roy's player's temporary replacement PC. Roy's player had enough of being the straight man of the group, he wanted to goof off and have fun for a bit, and resolved to show those slackers (Elan's and Belkar's players, particularly) that a Lawful character could be just as annoying as they could.

[Nexahs]

Tarquin's a tough one to figure out. Fighter obviously. He gets his 'trap sense' from somewhere. I can't see him as a civilized barbarian, but anything's possible. Maybe he was a barbarian who became a bard and then a fighter, though we've never seen him do anything remotely spell-like that I can think of.

I always pegged Tarquin as one of the ToB characters; his casually holy-crap-what-a-bad@$$ fighting style is reminiscent of a warblade (or given his long-term plans, maybe even a crusader).

[ti'esar]

To be clear, I don't think Tarquin is primarily a bard. A handful of levels when he was starting out, at the most.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Ooh, time to dust off this one from debates past:

Celia was Roy's player's temporary replacement PC. Roy's player had enough of being the straight man of the group, he wanted to goof off and have fun for a bit, and resolved to show those slackers (Elan's and Belkar's players, particularly) that a Lawful character could be just as annoying as they could.

While I think this would work in other RPG related webcomics, the Order of the Stick isn't actually a campaign, so Roy, Elan, and Belkar don't have literal "players".

[Keltest]

While I think this would work in other RPG related webcomics, the Order of the Stick isn't actually a campaign, so Roy, Elan, and Belkar don't have literal "players".

If they did though, it would be hilarious in a meta sense. My players do things like that all the time, taking control of NPCs who may or may not be equally powerful as their character was when they died.

[veti]

While I think this would work in other RPG related webcomics, the Order of the Stick isn't actually a campaign, so Roy, Elan, and Belkar don't have literal "players".

So what?

The story is told within the conceit of a D&D campaign. Our heroes are PCs. Heck, they even call themselves PCs.

It follows that they implicitly have "players", in the same way as they mplicitly have a STR stat, even if we'll never actually see it. And regardless of the author's intent, it's perfectly reasonable to read it that way if it improves my enjoyment of the strip. Which it does.

[Keltest]

So what?

The story is told within the conceit of a D&D campaign. Our heroes are PCs. Heck, they even call themselves PCs.

It follows that they implicitly have "players", in the same way as they mplicitly have a STR stat, even if we'll never actually see it. And regardless of the author's intent, it's perfectly reasonable to read it that way if it improves my enjoyment of the strip. Which it does.

In this case, "player" implies that there is a separate entity controlling their every action, rather than the character themself being the source of any decision. To say that they have players implies that in-universe there is someone else controlling them.

[Jay R]

1. Sabine returns and helps the Order of the Stick because she can't resist Elan’s edgy "good guy" charms.

2. Hilgya returns and tries to flirt with Durkon. The High Priest of Hel calls up Durkon’s memories of her, and has the same reaction as Thor and Loki (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0079.html). This finally proves to Roy that this isn’t Durkon.

3. When we learn the secret of the Monster in the Dark, everything makes sense, and we finally understand why nutmeg and loofahs are scary.

4. Vaarsuvius eventually brings down Xykon, using the power of a doily.

5. In lieu of paradise, Roy is given a picture of his father's face when Eugene first heard that Roy was going up but he wasn't.

6. In the final strip, Elan complains that without his best buddy Roy, he didn't really get a happy ending. Haley tries to cheer him up, but Elan is inconsolable. The final panel reveals that on the road in front of them, they are about to find a whistle.

[orrion]

2. Hilgya returns and tries to flirt with Durkon. The High Priest of Hel calls up Durkon’s memories of her, and has the same reaction as Thor and Loki (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0079.html). This finally proves to Roy that this isn’t Durkon.

How does that prove it to Roy? Durkon said he didn't want to talk about anything after Hilgya went off crying and he found the party again, and none of that was ever referred to on-panel between Durkon and any Order member. So, Roy likely doesn't have any direct knowledge that Durkon and Hilgya know anything about each other, and could just attribute that reaction to Durkon finding Hilgya unattractive or whatever.



6. In the final strip, Elan complains that without his best buddy Roy, he didn't really get a happy ending. Haley tries to cheer him up, but Elan is inconsolable. The final panel reveals that on the road in front of them, they are about to find a whistle.

Where does it warp them?

[Cazero]

I have a big one, but it might be disproven with prequel material I didn't have the occasion to read.

The Dark One, the divinity worshipped by Redcloak, is actually an avatar of (or actively working with) the Snarl itself.
It's big plan is to move the gate to the astral plane, force it open, then give to the gods the exact same fate they gave him : imprisonning them in the core of a world of it's own design, forever.
The whole point of having gates built on the rifts could be to allow displacement of said rifts to the astral plane, and therefore might be part of it's plan, turning the cast from the crayon times into it's unwitting pawns.
This also explain why it doesn't do anything to go out of open rifts like in Azure City (the gods certainly noticed a rift that big, and it wants them to think it's still trapped), why it attacked Laurin (she intended to actively take stuff from the other side of the rift, wich would definitely have attracted the gods attention, maybe even warned them about it's final goal), and why nothing alive exists on that other world yet (it can't properly finish it before the gods are trapped inside).

[Peelee]

So what?

The story is told within the conceit of a D&D campaign. Our heroes are PCs. Heck, they even call themselves PCs.

It follows that they implicitly have "players", in the same way as they mplicitly have a STR stat, even if we'll never actually see it. And regardless of the author's intent, it's perfectly reasonable to read it that way if it improves my enjoyment of the strip. Which it does.

Except that in strip 606 Belkar states explicitly that they do not represent an actual campaign. If you wish to reject stated fact and authorial intent for your enjoyment, though, feel free to continue.

[Jay R]

How does that prove it to Roy? Durkon said he didn't want to talk about anything after Hilgya went off crying and he found the party again, and none of that was ever referred to on-panel between Durkon and any Order member.

That's how. Durkon shows the encounter, not his lack of discussion of it later. (You can't view something not happening.)
Durkon doesn't talk about it.
HPoH does talk about it.
Ergo, HPoH is not Durkon.

[You did understand that all my theories were absurdly impossible jokes, right?]


Where does it warp them?

Thank you, Mario, but our hero has found another whistle. I was referring to this definition of a happy ending (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0334.html) for Elan.

[ti'esar]

I forgot this one earlier: "the Devil-King of Dinosaur Island" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0392.html) was one of Tarquin's earlier identities.

[Corneel]

Tarquin's class is Noble (http://www.birthright.net/forums/showwiki.php?title=BRCS:Chapter_one_Character_Nobl e) (developed for 3rd party Birthright campaign world)


Nobles are trained to defend the interests of their family by both strength of arm and quickness of wit. Nobles must be at ease on both the battlefield and on the dance floor. They are familiar with most martial weaponry and armor and furthermore, have both the freedom and the finances to train in the skills of their choice. As they gain experience, nobles get more opportunities to develop their skills. Some chose to focus on combat maneuvers, others choose to develop skills that are useful in more subtle endeavors. Nobles are exceptionally flexible and each develops those skills and abilities they feel most useful in meeting their duties and obligations.

[Synesthesy]

Belkar won't die. Because no one on earth would be so cruel to kill the one who Mr.Scruffy loves AGAIN.


Oh, and in the end Xykon defeat the Order, Reddy defeat Xykon after taking control over the last gate, the Dark One release the Snarl inside gods' plane killing all of them, and then the only surviving God, the only one, Banjo the Clown, rebuild the world (Happy ending for Elan).

[brian 333]

Mr. Scruffy is carrying Shojo's soul around in some kind of non-evil soul splice. This is how Shojo influenced the delusional Belkar, and how Mr. Scruffy always knows how to do the right thing at the dramatically appropriate time. It also explains Shojo's attachment to the cat prior to his death.

[Synesthesy]

Mr. Scruffy is carrying Shojo's soul around in some kind of non-evil soul splice. This is how Shojo influenced the delusional Belkar, and how Mr. Scruffy always knows how to do the right thing at the dramatically appropriate time. It also explains Shojo's attachment to the cat prior to his death.

Shojo is a lich, and the cat is the Phylactery! Sort of

[Atomburster]

V knows everything about Durkon and his real alignment, because Sabine told him/her/it everything since Nale died, not to mention that Durkula helped killed him.

[Domino Quartz]

V knows everything about Durkon and his real alignment, because Sabine told him/her/it everything since Nale died, not to mention that Durkula helped killed him.

What? You must be talking about Zz'dtri. In any case...why would Sabine know anything about HPoH's (aside from his obvious alignment), and why would HPoH's killing of Zz'dtri grant him knowledge of anything?

[Jaxzan Proditor]

V knows everything about Durkon and his real alignment, because Sabine told him/her/it everything since Nale died, not to mention that Durkula helped killed him.

Why would Vaarsuvius lie to Belkar? And what would Sabine know about vampires?

[Atomburster]

What? You must be talking about Zz'dtri. In any case...why would Sabine know anything about HPoH's (aside from his obvious alignment), and why would HPoH's killing of Zz'dtri grant him knowledge of anything?
Durkula drained Nale of Constitution/did damage to him, meaning that he died that much easier. Also, the Blood TV wasn't damaged then, so V could see how Durkon sucked Nale's blood.


Why would Vaarsuvius lie to Belkar? And what would Sabine know about vampires?
Because telling Belkar would probably lead to either Durkula or Belkar dying. Meaning, they lose an epic level character which they sorely need.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Because telling Belkar would probably lead to either Durkula or Belkar dying. Meaning, they lose an epic level character which they sorely need.

Actually, come to think of it, why wouldn't Vaarsuvius tell everyone? If they know that the High Priest of Hel is up to no good, what advantage would keeping him alive have? Or at least keeping the rest of the Order unaware? Or even Roy? Also, Belkar is hardly epic or sorely needed. Durkon has an epic ECL, but doesn't have the Order's interests at heart.

[Peelee]

Durkula drained Nale of Constitution/did damage to him, meaning that he died that much easier. Also, the Blood TV wasn't damaged then, so V could see how Durkon sucked Nale's blood.

Small hole in your theory: that never happened (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0908.html).



Because telling Belkar would probably lead to either Durkula or Belkar dying. Meaning, they lose an epic level character which they sorely need.

....Neither of them are epic. The vampires ECL is above 20, but his actual Cleric level isn't.

[Chronos]

Elan is played by a woman, and Haley is played by a man, and the two of them have an out-of-character romance (sort of like Jim and Annie from Darths and Droids). This explains the awkward tension between them early in the strip, and Haley's fanservicey behavior (especially before she matured more) and misogyny, and Elan's sensitivity and caring.

The only problem, of course, is the "not actually played by players" thing.

[Keltest]

Elan is played by a woman, and Haley is played by a man, and the two of them have an out-of-character romance (sort of like Jim and Annie from Darths and Droids). This explains the awkward tension between them early in the strip, and Haley's fanservicey behavior (especially before she matured more) and misogyny, and Elan's sensitivity and caring.

The only problem, of course, is the "not actually played by players" thing.

Well if you ignore all the inconvenient details that make it not work, it works perfectly!

[Jay R]

Belkar dies on schedule, permanently, in a noble sacrifice to save Mr. Scruffy, or Roy, or maybe even Vaarsuvius. But it happens in the climax of the comic, so that there is never any story without Belkar.

[ti'esar]

Belkar dies on schedule, permanently, in a noble sacrifice to save Mr. Scruffy, or Roy, or maybe even Vaarsuvius. But it happens in the climax of the comic, so that there is never any story without Belkar.

I don't see how that's "unprovable". It's entirely plausible.

[Keltest]

I don't see how that's "unprovable". It's entirely plausible.

most theories are "plausible" in the sense that they aren't outright contradicted by the story or word of Rich (yet). But, as with most of these theories, there isn't any supporting evidence or foreshadowing for it either.

[orrion]

Durkula drained Nale of Constitution/did damage to him, meaning that he died that much easier. Also, the Blood TV wasn't damaged then, so V could see how Durkon sucked Nale's blood.

You might want to reread the part of the comic you're basing your theory on. Durkon never drained Nale. He hit him and Z with a staff, and then killed Z via breaking his neck. He then threatened to drain Nale before killing him, and Nale popped out with Dimension Door.

Heck, we don't even know the Blood TV was focused on them. Sabine's call to Qarr suggests it wasn't - as does the fact the main interest for the Fiends apparently lies with the Order in that sequence, and all active members of the Order were elsewhere during that. It makes sense that it would have been focused on Nale when he died because everyone was in the same area.



Because telling Belkar would probably lead to either Durkula or Belkar dying. Meaning, they lose an epic level character which they sorely need.

This part is superfluous given the basis for the theory is already shot, but.. Neither Durkon nor Belkar are epic characters, and I doubt they will be at any point. Durkon's level adjustment from being a Vampire makes him theoretically epic, but his Cleric abilities aren't. Belkar isn't any more near Epic than any of the other Order members.

[Atomburster]

OK. Next theory:
Everyone the Snarl has "killed" is actually alive, along with all the gods. They just so happen to be trapped in the Snarl for all eternity, which coincidentally happens to be stuck on a plane that nulls divine magic, so they can't do anything to get out.

Interrupting the spell of Control Snarl will cause the relevant gate to blow up, and this will occur at the climax, and will result in Team Evil and the Oots being trapped in the Snarl for a final showdown while the gods remake the world.

Also, I believe Xykon will recognize V and O-Chul, and will fight them at full power immediately after doing so - To note, Xykon and co. have not interacted with V and O-Chul a single time since the Darth V arc.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

most theories are "plausible" in the sense that they aren't outright contradicted by the story or word of Rich (yet). But, as with most of these theories, there isn't any supporting evidence or foreshadowing for it either.

Really, I think "unprovable" is a bad word to use for this thread, since most of the theories in here would be better described as "unlikely" or "WMG".

[Jay R]

I don't see how that's "unprovable". It's entirely plausible.

"Plausible" and "unprovable" aren't antonyms, and a statement can be both plausible and unprovable.

It's unprovable because I can't prove it. Nothing in the published strips can make it necessary.

As it happens, I also think it's true, which is part of why I'm amused at all the posters who try to find some way to prevent the prophecy, so they don't lose Belkar. The prophecy doesn't mean he won't be part of the strip for its entire run.

[HerbieRAI]

Serini is Belkar's mother or grandmother. She gave her journal to Xykon and convinced Belkar to go kill him in hopes he would develop some character through the adventure. The reason his daggers are so deadly is he has trained in Serini's monster dungeon through his younger years, so he is actually a lot stronger than Roy.

[Kish]

I find myself wondering what the row of dots meant by "unprovable."

If it's what we In Nomine players call Canon Doubt and Uncertainty, then Belkar's fate doesn't quality; it could be established next strip (as "he's going to die in #962") or at any time after that.

If, on the other hand, it simply means something that isn't established yet (Doubt and Uncertainty...), most of the posts on the forum are about it. (The ones that aren't about the ethical viability of genocide or why Rich had to have the glorious Tarquin break character so badly as to act irrationally or...okay, never mind "most.")

[ti'esar]

Personally, I've been using "unprovable" in the sense of "unlikely to be proven". I doubt we'll ever learn Tarquin's class or much about his backstory even if the rumored Linear Guild/Vector Legion prequel becomes a thing, for instance.

[runeghost]

2. Hilgya returns and tries to flirt with Durkon. The High Priest of Hel calls up Durkon’s memories of her, and has the same reaction as Thor and Loki (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0079.html). This finally proves to Roy that this isn’t Durkon.

Oh man, this just gave me an idea. The OotS runs into Hilgya, and Durkon pseudo-reluctantly gives the High Priest of Hel the memories of their time together, causing the HPoH to react to her in ways that the rest of the party will see as out of character for Durkon, leading to the HPoH deciding that 'the jig is up' and revealing his true self!:smallbiggrin:

[Keltest]

Oh man, this just gave me an idea. The OotS runs into Hilgya, and Durkon pseudo-reluctantly gives the High Priest of Hel the memories of their time together, causing the HPoH to react to her in ways that the rest of the party will see as out of character for Durkon, leading to the HPoH deciding that 'the jig is up' and revealing his true self!:smallbiggrin:

Eh, I don't think its likely. The HPOH has not yet allowed his personal feelings to "slip through" the Durkon façade except with Belkar, who doesn't believe him anyway. IF he slips up, it wont be because he fails at pretending to be Durkon, but because his goals require him to abandon the pretense at some point.

[Peelee]

OK. Next theory:
Everyone the Snarl has "killed" is actually alive, along with all the gods. They just so happen to be trapped in the Snarl for all eternity, which coincidentally happens to be stuck on a plane that nulls divine magic, so they can't do anything to get out.

Interrupting the spell of Control Snarl will cause the relevant gate to blow up, and this will occur at the climax, and will result in Team Evil and the Oots being trapped in the Snarl for a final showdown while the gods remake the world.

Also, I believe Xykon will recognize V and O-Chul, and will fight them at full power immediately after doing so - To note, Xykon and co. have not interacted with V and O-Chul a single time since the Darth V arc.
The snarl theory actually a strong theory that holds many people in its sway. Or, rather, a slightly modified version, with the planet within the rifts equating to your plane.

Other than that, both of those theories are likely not unprovable, as they will in all likelihood eventually be proven correct or incorrect.

[CletusMusashi]

I love the Dinosaur Island hypothesis.
Since it was at a much lower level, it's possible for Scoundrel to not only remember that adventure fondly but still consider Tarquin to be a B-lister.
Also, it explains why Tarquin sees so much of himself in Elan. Because, come on, Nale may have had too much pride to use a name that cheezy, but it sounds exactly like something that Elan would come up with!

[martianmister]

Malack is really sexy for lizard-folk standards. That's why he has a high charisma that can effect Tarquin, Durkon and Laurin.

[Amphiox]

Right-Eye's daughter has been secretly raised, and trained, by Serini. They will appear together as the final as yet unmentioned faction vying for the Gates. Laurin's daughter will be the third member of their party.

[Ariko]

So what?

The story is told within the conceit of a D&D campaign. Our heroes are PCs. Heck, they even call themselves PCs.

It follows that they implicitly have "players", in the same way as they mplicitly have a STR stat, even if we'll never actually see it. And regardless of the author's intent, it's perfectly reasonable to read it that way if it improves my enjoyment of the strip. Which it does.

Implicit or not, Rich has stated explicitly that they do not have players.

[YossarianLives]

Hannah Bidetsmith is adopted and is Redcloak's niece.

More seriously, I think Laurin could be an Elan. It would be another reason to hide stuff from Hannah, and she would use either a hat of disguise or a mundane disguise kit to look constantly older. She, like Malack, has long-term plans for the area- possibly going to attack the elves and claim the non-desert part of the continent for the humans, probably ensuring plumbing became a noble and well-paid art.

Without reading your post properly I thought you said Laurin was actually Elan :smallbiggrin:

[ti'esar]

Malack is really sexy for lizard-folk standards. That's why he has a high charisma that can effect Tarquin, Durkon and Laurin.

...Or, y'know, it's because he's a vampire.

[runeghost]

I love the Dinosaur Island hypothesis.
Since it was at a much lower level, it's possible for Scoundrel to not only remember that adventure fondly but still consider Tarquin to be a B-lister.
Also, it explains why Tarquin sees so much of himself in Elan. Because, come on, Nale may have had too much pride to use a name that cheezy, but it sounds exactly like something that Elan would come up with!

For some reason I'd though that was explicitly confirmed, but a quick reread doesn't find anything. It seems very likely either way - old Julio/Tarquin rivalry, T's fondness for Dinosaurs, etc.

[Kish]

What was explicitly confirmed, is that the villain who had just been defeated by Julio when he appeared in Snips, Snails, and Dragon Tales, referred to as "that evil villain," was Tarquin.

[Jay R]

Malack is really sexy for lizard-folk standards. That's why he has a high charisma that can effect Tarquin, Durkon and Laurin.

Sexiness has little to do with Charisma. Many sexy people can't lead, and many non-sexy people can lead very well.

[Synesthesy]

Sexiness has little to do with Charisma. Many sexy people can't lead, and many non-sexy people can lead very well.

In real world, yes.

In d&d? Elan has a 18 Charisma "under the hood"! :haley:

[Keltest]

In real world, yes.

In d&d? Elan has a 18 Charisma "under the hood"! :haley:

physical attractiveness is certainly one part of Charisma, but you can be an unlikable troll and still be handsome.

[Sange]

Shojo is a lich, and the cat is the Phylactery! Sort of

I support this theory.

Mine:
Xykon and Redcloak end up defeating the Order, and Elan dies while laughing (happy ending). Redcloak then betrays Xykon and goblins rule the world.

[Vinyadan]

In the Empire of Tears, the highest honour is now the Order of the Butt-Wash.

[Synesthesy]

physical attractiveness is certainly one part of Charisma, but you can be an unlikable troll and still be handsome.

Even Trolls have Trolless that like them, haven't they?

(I invented the world trolless for female trolls, I don't know if it is right ;))

[Keltest]

Even Trolls have Trolless that like them, haven't they?

(I invented the world trolless for female trolls, I don't know if it is right ;))

not if theyre unlikable they don't. :smalltongue:

[chy03001]

Hey all,

Huge fan of OOTS and this is my first post in the forums:

My unprovable theory is that the MitD was not the one who teleported Vaarsuvius and O-Chul to safety. Instead, it was actually the fiends Lee, Nero and Cedrik because they wanted Vaarsuvius to stay alive to take advantage of their deal. Since they were monitoring the situation, they would have know the location of the fleet.

... that's my theory anyway.

[Kish]

I hate to rain on your first post, but that theory is not unprovable but disproven by Word of the Author.

(Rich said that the creature in the darkness used powers he didn't know he had to save O-Chul.)

[chy03001]

I hate to rain on your first post, but that theory is not unprovable but disproven by Word of the Author.

(Rich said that the creature in the darkness used powers he didn't know he had to save O-Chul.)

Huh... didn't know that. Thanks for the update :-)

[Peelee]

Huh... didn't know that. Thanks for the update :-)

I think it was hidden in the book commentary, though if I'm wrong i shall be banana'd soon enough. Easy to miss.

You could amend your theory to something along the lines of the MitD's power being Instant Transmission utilized several times (to get out of the box, get O-Chul and V to safety, and get back into the box) faster than anyone could see because the MitD has a tiny little Goku inside its head controlling it similarly to vampiric control, of course. Unprovability of said alteration not guaranteed.

But that's totally what happened, man.

[Jasdoif]

I think it was hidden in the book commentary, though if I'm wrong i shall be banana'd soon enough. Easy to miss.The MitD thread cites Don't Split the Party.
Anyway, my theory (that I don't have high expectations for): Hel is a splinter personality/aspect inside Thor's mind, and Hel's grudge against Thor is centered on him (as dominant personality) preventing her from having normal contact with worshippers of her own. We've never seen Hel in the same panel with any deity except Thor, and it's far less coincidental that the High Priest of Hel came to inhabit the body of a high-level priest of Thor.

[DaggerPen]

Well, since we're doing "I have no evidence for this and it probably won't happen, but dammit, what if" theories:

I know there's like no chance it survived the destruction of Dorukan's Dungeon, and that we haven't seen him amongst the mooks anyway, but I like the idea that Right-Eye's zombie may become be seen again at a crucial moment.

[BrotherMirtillo]

Mr. Scruffy is carrying Shojo's soul around in some kind of non-evil soul splice. This is how Shojo influenced the delusional Belkar, and how Mr. Scruffy always knows how to do the right thing at the dramatically appropriate time. It also explains Shojo's attachment to the cat prior to his death.

Ha, nice! I've seen something like that before, and it wasn't even evil.

Towards the end of the first season of YuGiOh GX, it turns out that the academy's alchemy professor contracted a fatal disease long before the series started. He created a homunculus clone of himself to store his soul while his original body died. Pretty soon, the professor gets defeated in combat, his homunculus crumbles to dust, and his soul drifts out as a little sphere of light. It happens to drift near his beloved pet cat... ...and the cat promptly swallows the spirit. For the rest of the seasons, that spirit is available for the occasional piece of advice -- or more often, comic relief when the cat burps up the spirit and swallows it again.


..."I have no evidence for this and it probably won't happen, but dammit, what if" theories:

I know there's like no chance it survived the destruction of Dorukan's Dungeon, and that we haven't seen him amongst the mooks anyway, but I like the idea that Right-Eye's zombie may become be seen again at a crucial moment.

To which I say: Zombie? Probably not. But how's about a ghost? And Redcloak's the only one that sees him, or at least Redcloak suspects so, but the MitD wouldn't notice anyway, and maybe Xykon's playing dumb, and oh Dark One, Right-Eye just won't stop staring and [cue Redcloak sucking his thumb]
///

As for additional theories:

-The Eastern Continent is the OOTS-world equivalent of Atlantis: nowhere to be seen, and many folks think that it never existed and that you'd be foolish to believe otherwise. Eugene spent most of his freshman year of college trying to find it.

-We already know Xykon killed five guys named Fyron in Cliffport (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0110.html), one of which was F. Pucebuckle, Eugene's mentor. Unfortunately, at least one of those deaths was a not-so-wacky mistaken identity during the search for F. Pucebuckle. (Xykon is really bad with names.)

And most of all:

-Mr. Scruffy started following Belkar because Mr. Scruffy deemed Belkar to be an honorary cat. The big guy runs, jumps, sniffs, hunts, plays, scratches, enjoys a fine cut of meat, and really doesn't care about much else.

[Sange]

The MitD thread cites Don't Split the Party.
Anyway, my theory (that I don't have high expectations for): Hel is a splinter personality/aspect inside Thor's mind, and Hel's grudge against Thor is centered on him (as dominant personality) preventing her from having normal contact with worshippers of her own. We've never seen Hel in the same panel with any deity except Thor, and it's far less coincidental that the High Priest of Hel came to inhabit the body of a high-level priest of Thor.

I think the recent comic would disprove this- as we learn that Hel does try to recruit clerics and has direct contact with Durkoff.

[Vinyadan]

To which I say: Zombie? Probably not. But how's about a ghost? And Redcloak's the only one that sees him, or at least Redcloak suspects so, but the MitD wouldn't notice anyway, and maybe Xykon's playing dumb, and oh Dark One, Right-Eye just won't stop staring and [cue Redcloak sucking his thumb]
///



He wasn't talking to his reflection in the mirror. He was talking to the ghost he could see behind himself.

[runeghost]

Even Trolls have Trolless that like them, haven't they?

(I invented the world trolless for female trolls, I don't know if it is right ;))

Should it be "trollop"?:smalltongue:

[veti]

In d&d? Elan has a 18 Charisma "under the hood"! :haley:

But Elan can't lead. Won't lead. His attempts at "inspiring" the Order are, without exception, hilariously inept.

There's no great consistency in how the Giant depicts Charisma. Elan has high Cha: we know he's goodlooking, and we can assume he has a decent singing voice, but that's about all. He has no great force of personality, he's often quite diffident, uninspiring (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0421.html) to the point of comedy, and many people find him incredibly irritating.

Then there was Miko. She was also goodlooking, had high Cha, dominant personality, but also made everyone hate her.

Roy has a strong personality, good persuasive and manipulative skills, and moderate Cha. We have no real information on his looks. Ditto Haley.

Xykon must have astronomical Cha, but most people (with one exception) wouldn't consider him sexy. Great force of personality and manipulative skills. Not so much at persuasion and making people like him, but maybe only because he can't be bothered.

O-Chul has low Cha, but he's demonstrably both persuasive (of the MitD) and inspiring (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0547.html), to say nothing of all his groupies here on the forum.

[Vinyadan]

But Elan can't lead. Won't lead. His attempts at "inspiring" the Order are, without exception, hilariously inept.

There's no great consistency in how the Giant depicts Charisma. Elan has high Cha: we know he's goodlooking, and we can assume he has a decent singing voice, but that's about all. He has no great force of personality, he's often quite diffident, uninspiring (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0421.html) to the point of comedy, and many people find him incredibly irritating.

Then there was Miko. She was also goodlooking, had high Cha, dominant personality, but also made everyone hate her.

Roy has a strong personality, good persuasive and manipulative skills, and moderate Cha. We have no real information on his looks. Ditto Haley.

Xykon must have astronomical Cha, but most people (with one exception) wouldn't consider him sexy. Great force of personality and manipulative skills. Not so much at persuasion and making people like him, but maybe only because he can't be bothered.

O-Chul has low Cha, but he's demonstrably both persuasive (of the MitD) and inspiring (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0547.html), to say nothing of all his groupies here on the forum.

I think you are not taking into account other stats: Elan's low intelligence and wisdom, O-Chul's good wisdom, Roy's good intelligence and wisdom. Xykon and Miko never shew any interest in soft power, as far as I remember.

[Keltest]

I think you are not taking into account other stats: Elan's low intelligence and wisdom, O-Chul's good wisdom, Roy's good intelligence and wisdom. Xykon and Miko never shew any interest in soft power, as far as I remember.

even an idiot can be inspiring. Theyre willing to throw themselves at a task with complete abandon simply because they aren't smart enough to know its hopeless. A character with high charisma and low wis/int will always be more inspiring than someone with low charisma and high wis/int. I cant imagine V or Durkon giving Roy the "its called morale, or sometimes hope" speech ever.

[Vinyadan]

even an idiot can be inspiring. Theyre willing to throw themselves at a task with complete abandon simply because they aren't smart enough to know its hopeless. A character with high charisma and low wis/int will always be more inspiring than someone with low charisma and high wis/int. I cant imagine V or Durkon giving Roy the "its called morale, or sometimes hope" speech ever.

Me neither, V because he's too self-concerned to give such a speech, and Durkon because he doesn't need any hope to do his job.

At the same time, I can't see V or D giving the Azure City Speech. V wouldn't even have tried. D would likely have ended up screaming Led Zeppelin lyrics all over the place. Both would have been better than what Elan did.

What I mean is that characters don't give speeches based solely on their allocated points, but also on their intentions, and that these two values, I think, are both shown rather well in the comic.

[Keltest]

Me neither, V because he's too self-concerned to give such a speech, and Durkon because he doesn't need any hope to do his job.

At the same time, I can't see V or D giving the Azure City Speech. V wouldn't even have tried. D would likely have ended up screaming Led Zeppelin lyrics all over the place. Both would have been better than what Elan did.

What I mean is that characters don't give speeches based solely on their allocated points, but also on their intentions, and that these two values, I think, are both shown rather well in the comic.

Elan did quite well until he began overthinking it out loud. That's a case of his charisma doing a good job, and then his poor intelligence promptly undoing it, certainly, but theyre two separate causes and effects.

[Jay R]

Should it be "trollop"?:smalltongue:

Perfect. Nobody's going to top this one. Close the thread.

[Vinyadan]

Elan did quite well until he began overthinking it out loud. That's a case of his charisma doing a good job, and then his poor intelligence promptly undoing it, certainly, but theyre two separate causes and effects.

Yes, I agree with that. What I'm saying is that charisma is rather consistently represented in the comic, and that its variable applications depend both on the characters' other stats and on their motivations.

[Keltest]

Yes, I agree with that. What I'm saying is that charisma is rather consistently represented in the comic, and that its variable applications depend both on the characters' other stats and on their motivations.

Oh, sure. Anyone can use their talents and/or abilities poorly, no matter what it is.

[AGD]

I have a Theorie for this Thread. This Theorie isn't unprovable. The Future will reveal if it is right. But that goes for a lot of other Theories in this Thread and i think, that this is still the best Thread for it. I think, that Vaarsuvius and Redcloak could have an important Scene together in the Future. Two Things let me think this.

1. Vs Reaction on Vs deeds is the exact opposite as Redcloak.

When Right-Eye confronted Redcloak about his Alliance with Xykon before he was killed by him, he pointed out, that Redcloak can't admit his mistakes and will repeat them because of that. What is the first Thing that V does after V finds out about the Draketooth-Clan? V realized, that V made an Mistake(Understatement). Not just that, V destroys every Attempt from Blackwing and Quarr, to convince V, that Vs Mistake wasn't so bad. Where Redcloak denies, that he made big Mistakes, even though Right-Eye confronts him with it, V insists, that V made a big Mistake even though Blackwing and Quarr gives him every possible Excuse for it.

I think, that this could lead to a scene, where V finds out about Redcloaks Backstory and gives him a big "The Reason you suck"-Speach about admitting your Mistakes and everything.

The other Thing, that could lead to an important Scene between this two Characters:

2. V is now learning, that V shouldn't kill somebody without thinking, just because his Species is supposedly always evil. This Sort of Thinking is exactly, what lead to Redcloaks Goals.

If V finds out about Redcloaks Backstory, maybe V will think, that V owns something to Redcloak, because it were Action like his thoughtless Act against the black dragons, that created Redcloaks Way of Thinking. Maybe V will try to talk Redcloak out of his Ways rather than fight, because V doesn't want to kill him. Another very unlikely, but very interesting Option would be, that V helps Redcloak with the Ritual, because he thinks, he could redeem himself from killing countless of Creatures because he saw them just as evil, by helping the Dark One and his Goblins, that were also killed countless, because many People saw them just as evil. I think, that it could be, that Xykon finds out about the real Function of the Ritual and says to Redcloak, that he will now destroy Gobbotopia as Revenge for Redcloaks Lie. Redcloak will therefore try to destroy Kraagors Gate. Redcloak said in SoD, that even if the Gates are destroyed and the Snarl is led lose, it would be a Win for the Goblins, because the Dark One would be involved in the Recreation in the World and would give a better Place in the World to the Goblins, so he thinks, that letting the Snarl free is better than just let Xykon destroy almost all Goblins. But V stops him and says him, that V will be the Spellcaster that Redcloaks needs for the Ritual, because he wants to help the Goblins to redeem himself from killing the Black Dragons.

Yeah, that sounds crazy, but I thought it could be an interesting Possibility, even though V would propably not trust the Dark One, that he would with the Power of the Snarl only make the World a better Place for the Goblins. Also I learned that it is real difficult to adress V in my Posts. To stay Gender-Neutral, i chosed always V instead of he/she/his/her/him/etc. I don't really like the popular "They" as Solution for that.

[DaggerPen]

I've heard that theory a lot, but I feel like blackmailing the gods with a creature that can destroy all reality is officially in the realm of Bad Ideas, especially when you've hit the "I don't care if the Snarl brutally kills and permanently erases from existence the entirety of reality as long as the world that replaces it sucks less" point. Things need to change for the goblin people, but there are good solutions and less good solutions. Given that we don't know that the Snarl is what we've been told, what's up with the world inside the Snarl, or that the Dark One is on the up and up, I am going to say that V participating in the Ritual would not only not lead to redemption, but would probably lead to a wholesale slaughter that makes Familicide look mild.

I do, however, like the idea of V's arc being contrasted with Redcloak's, and of V trying to convince Redcloak to see his own mistakes.

(Side note: while I like zie/zir/zir for my third gender pronouns because I have a friend who uses said pronouns, I tend to use ve/vir/vir for V, because it just flows from V. Whatever pronouns you are most comfortable using for V work, though, in lieu of V giving them virself. Not gonna get too into this, though, since it tends to get vitriolic surprisingly quickly.)

[AGD]

It seems like I wasn't clear. I wanted to say, that V would see this Act as an Act of Redemption, not that it is an Act of Redemption. I would see this Action from V still as relatively evil.


I've heard that theory a lot

Really? If this Theory is somewhere in this Forum, could you show me a Link.

[DaggerPen]

It seems like I wasn't clear. I wanted to say, that V would see this Act as an Act of Redemption, not that it is an Act of Redemption. I would see this Action from V still as relatively evil.

Ah, apologies. I misunderstood. I could definitely see V seeing it as an act of redemption, but I don't see the narrative going that way - V seems fairly solidly on the right track now, and I think V would recognize the failings of that path.


Really? If this Theory is somewhere in this Forum, could you show me a Link.

I'm afraid I don't know any posts off the top of my head - there's no dedicated long running thread or anything, but there have been a reasonably regular scattering of threads and posts dedicated to it over the years.

[YossarianLives]

Obviously Elan is a elan and Belkar is a belker.

[Thrythlind]

I'll start.

At the end of the story, Elan transcends into being a 5e Bard of Lore and awesome.

[riaierb]

my turn!! :smallbiggrin:
mitd is actually the heavily templated snail from the dragon magazine comics

[MKV]

Belkar and Xkyon are secretly manifestations of the split personality of Roy who is in reality an epic-level Psion. This is shown in the 8th panel of #787.

[Themrys]

Elan is played by a woman, and Haley is played by a man, and the two of them have an out-of-character romance (sort of like Jim and Annie from Darths and Droids). This explains the awkward tension between them early in the strip, and Haley's fanservicey behavior (especially before she matured more) and misogyny, and Elan's sensitivity and caring.

The only problem, of course, is the "not actually played by players" thing.

I love that one. It makes perfect sense. Elan being ignorant about the woman saying "nice ass"? Totally plausible if the female player just hates that kind of pick-up-line, having heard it one time too often, and decided to intentionally misunderstand it in the same manner she does in real life.

Of course, Elan's sensitivity and caring also make sense if you realize that he considers seducing women his job. (Or at least did so until he ended up with Haley). There is more to that than high charisma.



Elves are not biologically asexual, but they have no concept of gender beyond noting that some Elves have one set of parts and some Elves have another set of parts and sex involving these two kinds of Elves leads to reproduction. Other than that, all Elves are Elves, and are a bit bewildered by the obsession other races have with separating people based on what (as far as they're concerned) is basically plumbing. Their relationship styles are more or less similar to those of other races, except not every Elven pair will be able to reproduce, but adoption is common.

Some Elves pick up the idea of gender from other races and try it on for size (following their own interpretations of it; an Elf with what another race might consider female parts deciding that they quite like being a He, actually, or whatever) but not all. V is in this regard pretty much a normal Elf.

That has always been my assumption about elves. Thanks for providing an explanation for the exceptions that do have a gender. Now it all makes sense!

[Brumagris]

Elan is on the way to turn to CE... and smarter than we all think, as shown during the lapse with his father, plus the good plan to vanquish him. He understands what kind of blood runs in his family and starts embrazing it. And which way to show it dramatically? using oblivious third people in order to terminate his father and occupying the power afterwards, due to his history and exceptional charisma. It would be a masterpiece that would make Tarquin really proud of him.

As seen during the comics and with all the issues about his family he is starting to become merciless, even though it can be considered wisdom.
There is as well, this small reference of a "detect evil" check on him, saying "still not evil", that left me thinking.

So yeah, my unprovable theory is that Elan will make a twist to the dark side.

[orrion]

Elan is on the way to turn to CE... and smarter than we all think, as shown during the lapse with his father, plus the good plan to vanquish him. He understands what kind of blood runs in his family and starts embrazing it. And which way to show it dramatically? using oblivious third people in order to terminate his father and occupying the power afterwards, due to his history and exceptional charisma. It would be a masterpiece that would make Tarquin really proud of him.

As seen during the comics and with all the issues about his family he is starting to become merciless, even though it can be considered wisdom.
There is as well, this small reference of a "detect evil" check on him, saying "still not evil", that left me thinking.

So yeah, my unprovable theory is that Elan will make a twist to the dark side.

That's not unprovable; that's debunked before you started.

Elan has shown no inclination to "occupy the power afterwards." Ever since he realized what his father was he resisted at every turn up to and including Tarquin falling from the airship.

He has shown zero inclination toward mercilessness. He had to be almost dragged away from helping Julio on the ground and wouldn't leave him once they were on the airship, and he knew Tarquin would survive the fall off the airship.

There is zilch about his actions during any of this that would indicate an alignment change is necessary or forthcoming.

[Porthos]

Explicitly debunked by Rich, BTW: Elan is (Still) Chaotic Good (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?324877-Elan-s-Alignment-Heading-South/page2&p=16773002#post16773002).
(h/t the ever useful Index of Giant's Comments (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?335909))

[FabulousFizban]

Ok. Now for the other question I asked - what does that explain or justify?

the gradual shift in Belkar's character

[orrion]

the gradual shift in Belkar's character

The gradual shift in Belkar's character can simply be explained by having someone around he cares about. There is no need for a magical explanation.

Actually, if there WAS a magical explanation for the shift in Belkar's character that sort of cheapens it, don't you think?

[Angelalex242]

If Miko had had a single real friend, ever, she wouldn't have gone off the deep end.

[martianmister]

If Miko had had a single real friend, ever, she wouldn't have gone off the deep end.

What about her horse?

[Angelalex242]

Clearly the Horse wasn't enough. She needed a friend on two legs.

[martianmister]

Clearly the Horse wasn't enough. She needed a friend on two legs.

Why she needed someone with two legs? What can they give her that her horse can't?

[littlebum2002]

Why she needed someone with two legs? What can they give her that her horse can't?

Treasure Type O

[martianmister]

Treasure Type O

So, she needs to get laid...

[Jay R]

New speculation. The Dark One realizes that Odin likes puppets (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0137.html), so he ties strings to his arms and legs and is accepted into the pantheon.

[Angelalex242]

Oh no. I'd want to see Miko with at least 3 or 4 solid real friends (on 2 legs) before she goes hunting down any treasure type O.

[Jay R]

Oh no. I'd want to see Miko with at least 3 or 4 solid real friends (on 2 legs) before she goes hunting down any treasure type O.

It usually doesn't take me that many.

[Usually.]

[Angelalex242]

The point is that it would be prudent for her to be less crazy before trying to throw treasure type O into it. As it is...if she got Treasure Type O, I'd lay solid odds that she stabs the face off whoever gave it to her for 'tempting her into sin.'

[Gusion]

We all know that OOTS is not a D&D game, in so much as in the strip they aren't characters being played they exist in a world (loosely) run by the rules of D&D.

My unprovable theory is that they are based on an actual D&D game in which Rich DMs. His friend Chester - whom everybody calls "Trip" since he is a III - plays Roy.

Sometimes they have trouble getting the group together and can't play for weeks at a time.

[Reathin]

The Greenhilt Family Sword (more specifically, its hilt) is the core of the Snarl's mind. After it was removed from the abomination after the first recreation, it has lashed out at random, hoping to reclaim its thoughts.

The hilt also seeks unity with its former unstoppable proto-divine nature, and has been manipulating things ever since. The Dark One (and by extension Redcloak and by further extension Xykon) have been fooled by the deep and subtle machinations of the hilt, which knows that if you inspire powerful villains, powerful heroes will show up that can break through the defenses left by the Order of the Scribble. It has come so close now, so tantalizingly close, to passing through one of the Gates to recombine (this most recent setback in the desert, with a gate ripped open and reasonably tempting given the circumstances, was particularly annoying). Furious at this turn of events, it now manipulates Hel and her new high priest into producing just enough conflict in the part so that, at the height of their tensions, a battle will break out amongst the order and the vampire. Knowing that Roy will not risk the lives of his people without a means of resurrecting them, and that their wills are mostly too weak to handle vampiric domination, he will jump through the Gate with them, hoping beyond all hope that his soul won't be destroyed in the process.

It won't. But the rest of the world might find that a preferable alternative to the Unified Snarl and its band of possessed Player Characters. Narrative causality on their side, The Order of the Snarl will be a blight upon reality such as the deepest pits of the Hells could not design.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

The Greenhilt Family Sword (more specifically, its hilt) is the core of the Snarl's mind. After it was removed from the abomination after the first recreation, it has lashed out at random, hoping to reclaim its thoughts.

The hilt also seeks unity with its former unstoppable proto-divine nature, and has been manipulating things ever since. The Dark One (and by extension Redcloak and by further extension Xykon) have been fooled by the deep and subtle machinations of the hilt, which knows that if you inspire powerful villains, powerful heroes will show up that can break through the defenses left by the Order of the Scribble. It has come so close now, so tantalizingly close, to passing through one of the Gates to recombine (this most recent setback in the desert, with a gate ripped open and reasonably tempting given the circumstances, was particularly annoying). Furious at this turn of events, it now manipulates Hel and her new high priest into producing just enough conflict in the part so that, at the height of their tensions, a battle will break out amongst the order and the vampire. Knowing that Roy will not risk the lives of his people without a means of resurrecting them, and that their wills are mostly too weak to handle vampiric domination, he will jump through the Gate with them, hoping beyond all hope that his soul won't be destroyed in the process.

It won't. But the rest of the world might find that a preferable alternative to the Unified Snarl and its band of possessed Player Characters. Narrative causality on their side, The Order of the Snarl will be a blight upon reality such as the deepest pits of the Hells could not design.

This may be one of the best theories in this thread. Well done.

[Ghost Nappa]

The Greenhilt Family Sword (more specifically, its hilt) is the core of the Snarl's mind. After it was removed from the abomination after the first recreation, it has lashed out at random, hoping to reclaim its thoughts.

The hilt also seeks unity with its former unstoppable proto-divine nature, and has been manipulating things ever since. The Dark One (and by extension Redcloak and by further extension Xykon) have been fooled by the deep and subtle machinations of the hilt, which knows that if you inspire powerful villains, powerful heroes will show up that can break through the defenses left by the Order of the Scribble. It has come so close now, so tantalizingly close, to passing through one of the Gates to recombine (this most recent setback in the desert, with a gate ripped open and reasonably tempting given the circumstances, was particularly annoying). Furious at this turn of events, it now manipulates Hel and her new high priest into producing just enough conflict in the part so that, at the height of their tensions, a battle will break out amongst the order and the vampire. Knowing that Roy will not risk the lives of his people without a means of resurrecting them, and that their wills are mostly too weak to handle vampiric domination, he will jump through the Gate with them, hoping beyond all hope that his soul won't be destroyed in the process.

It won't. But the rest of the world might find that a preferable alternative to the Unified Snarl and its band of possessed Player Characters. Narrative causality on their side, The Order of the Snarl will be a blight upon reality such as the deepest pits of the Hells could not design.

This except replace Roy's Sword with Elan's hand puppet, Banjo - who is undeniably pissed at that one cleric who refused to allow him to join the Northern pantheon and has decided to destroy all of reality for revenge by merging with his eldritch abomination of a relative, Banjhulu.

[multilis]

The last reality strip of OOTS: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0014.html

Roy fell asleep and the rest of comics so far is his crazy dream.

Which is easier to believe... that Roy got into good afterlife after happily slaughtering (only mostly evil) goblins in their sleep in their homes in #11, similar with wanting to slaughter ogres in sleep on basis of word of one person, or that Roy just imagined he got into good afterlife? Lots of hints on how V killing what thought was "always evil" black dragons was enough to be major alignment downgrade, how much more so for poor possibly innocent only mostly evil creatures not proven to have done anything wrong?

But does that mean that Miko was only just a dream? YES... Miko is symbolic of Roys immature sexuality, his love/hate relationship with his ideal woman.

He is untrusting of his teammates, crazy relationship with his father and sister, crazy visions of grandeur in thinking he could be in quest to save world, etc... Roy is in serious need of a psychiatrist!

[martianmister]

SoD spoilers:
Xykon wasn't actually joking about his fears of lichification. But he choose to do it anyway because it was the only way to escape and reclaim his magic. Coffee incident is the reality check and he finally understand the full complications of his actions.

[Keltest]

The last reality strip of OOTS: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0014.html

Roy fell asleep and the rest of comics so far is his crazy dream.

Which is easier to believe... that Roy got into good afterlife after happily slaughtering (only mostly evil) goblins in their sleep in their homes in #11, similar with wanting to slaughter ogres in sleep on basis of word of one person, or that Roy just imagined he got into good afterlife? Lots of hints on how V killing what thought was "always evil" black dragons was enough to be major alignment downgrade, how much more so for poor possibly innocent only mostly evil creatures not proven to have done anything wrong?

But does that mean that Miko was only just a dream? YES... Miko is symbolic of Roys immature sexuality, his love/hate relationship with his ideal woman.

He is untrusting of his teammates, crazy relationship with his father and sister, crazy visions of grandeur in thinking he could be in quest to save world, etc... Roy is in serious need of a psychiatrist!

Unfortunately that's not so much unprovable as explicitly not the case per word of Giant. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?327666-They-re-Still-in-the-Grand-Illusion/page2&p=16883966#post16883966)

Different dream, but the point still stands.

[multilis]

Unfortunately that's not so much unprovable as explicitly not the case per word of Giant. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?327666-They-re-Still-in-the-Grand-Illusion/page2&p=16883966#post16883966)

Different dream, but the point still stands.
Matter of what you consider proof, any theory here could be "proven" or "unproven" by a word of someone called "Giant", "Snarl", "Oracle", "Banjo" or whoever claims to be the surpreme God, DM, GM, etc. Some will even claim this story is a work of fiction rather than based on historical fact. Why not let the facts speak for themselves rather than blindly follow the word of your god?

If your god "Giant" wrote that Belkar was always an innocent lawful good alignment and was only wearing an evil tainted artifact (like Roy was when he dreamed of Miko detecting him as evil because of X's crown) would you also blindly accept that as fact?

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Matter of what you consider proof, any theory here could be "proven" or "unproven" by a word of someone called "Giant", "Snarl", "Oracle", "Banjo" or whoever claims to be the surpreme God, DM, GM, etc. Some will even claim this story is a work of fiction rather than based on historical fact. Why not let the facts speak for themselves rather than blindly follow the word of your god?

If your god "Giant" wrote that Belkar was always an innocent lawful good alignment and was only wearing an evil tainted artifact (like Roy was when he dreamed of Miko detecting him as evil because of X's crown) would you also blindly accept that as fact?

I think there's a difference between the "well, it's not explicitly contradicted" unprovable that most "theories" in here follow, and "the Giant has explicitly said this is not so".

[Jay R]

Matter of what you consider proof, any theory here could be "proven" or "unproven" by a word of someone called "Giant", "Snarl", "Oracle", "Banjo" or whoever claims to be the surpreme God, DM, GM, etc. Some will even claim this story is a work of fiction rather than based on historical fact.

Oh, good one. I love your hilarious unprovable (but clearly false) OOTS theory.

[CaDzilla]

SPG is the one true god

[orrion]

Matter of what you consider proof, any theory here could be "proven" or "unproven" by a word of someone called "Giant", "Snarl", "Oracle", "Banjo" or whoever claims to be the surpreme God, DM, GM, etc. Some will even claim this story is a work of fiction rather than based on historical fact. Why not let the facts speak for themselves rather than blindly follow the word of your god?

The facts aren't speaking because you didn't present any. All you presented was an interpretation of events.

One that has been said to be explicitly wrong. Also dumb - what would be gained by such a dream sequence?



If your god "Giant" wrote that Belkar was always an innocent lawful good alignment and was only wearing an evil tainted artifact (like Roy was when he dreamed of Miko detecting him as evil because of X's crown) would you also blindly accept that as fact?

Argumentum ad absurdum doesn't help your cause.

[DaggerPen]

The facts aren't speaking because you didn't present any. All you presented was an interpretation of events.

One that has been said to be explicitly wrong. Also dumb - what would be gained by such a dream sequence?



Argumentum ad absurdum doesn't help your cause.

I'm, uh, I'm pretty sure multilis' s comments are firmly tongue in cheek here.

[togapika]

Theory: Durkon's younger brother will come to save him from the creature controlling his mind by leading a rag-tag team of teenagers who can polymorph into any animal they touch

[Domino Quartz]

Theory: Durkon's younger brother will come to save him from the creature controlling his mind by leading a rag-tag team of teenagers who can polymorph into any animal they touch

I thought this thread was for serious theories about what's already happened/been observed in the comic, not silly random future predictions.

[orrion]

Theory: Durkon's younger brother will come to save him from the creature controlling his mind by leading a rag-tag team of teenagers who can polymorph into any animal they touch

You might want to look up the definition of the word "theory."

[ti'esar]

I thought this thread was for serious theories about what's already happened/been observed in the comic, not silly random future predictions.

I thought the word "unprovable" kind of suggested against that.

[Keltest]

I thought the word "unprovable" kind of suggested against that.

The level of seriousness may vary, but I think we can safely discount "Rich decides to completely steal the plot from a different work at the last minute" as a realistic scenario.

[Jay R]

The level of seriousness may vary, but I think we can safely discount "Rich decides to completely steal the plot from a different work at the last minute" as a realistic scenario.

Of course. It was somebody's throwaway joke. Laugh, forget it, and move on.

[Uigeadaily]

Xykon’s crown is not a halfling-sized piece of royal headwear but instead a key component to an elaborate anti-magic locking mechanism which seals the entrance to Kraagor’s tomb. One that Team Evil spend weeks trying to figure out how to open before realising that the answer is right under their noses...or on their heads.

Sure, “The power of physical might” is all well and good, but would it be too much to suspect that a master rogue like Serini might be inclined to put a solid padlock over the door to keep things out...or in? :smallbiggrin:

[orrion]

Xykon’s crown is not a halfling-sized piece of royal headwear but instead a key component to an elaborate anti-magic locking mechanism which seals the entrance to Kraagor’s tomb. One that Team Evil spend weeks trying to figure out how to open before realising that the answer is right under their noses...or on their heads.

Sure, “The power of physical might” is all well and good, but would it be too much to suspect that a master rogue like Serini might be inclined to put a solid padlock over the door to keep things out...or in? :smallbiggrin:

Ok.. but there's nothing that indicates Serini has any connection to the crown. The crown was Fyron's, and he was a human living in Cliffport.

Besides, if there were a small crown-shaped slot in a door I'm pretty sure it wouldn't take very long for Xykon or Redcloak to go "What the hell, we'll try the crown on my/your head."

[YossarianLives]

The giant, half-fiendish salad spinners are going to take over the world! Run for your lives!

[UristMcRandom]

The MitD is the heavily-templated snail from SSDT.

Also, Banjo is the Eastern Pantheon compressed and reborn in the form of a small puppet.

[AbyssStalker]

Durkon is discovered to be fake by his new-found amiability with trees.

Also, Durkon got the cleric shown in earlier strips pregnant

[littlebum2002]

Durkon is discovered to be fake by his new-found amiability with trees.

Also, Durkon got the cleric shown in earlier strips pregnant

I honestly think your second theory is actually quite plausible. Although I think some splatbook has rules for magical birth control, somehow I doubt they had it in a dungeon.

[MrMercury]

I have a big one, but it might be disproven with prequel material I didn't have the occasion to read.

The Dark One, the divinity worshipped by Redcloak, is actually an avatar of (or actively working with) the Snarl itself.
It's big plan is to move the gate to the astral plane, force it open, then give to the gods the exact same fate they gave him : imprisonning them in the core of a world of it's own design, forever.
The whole point of having gates built on the rifts could be to allow displacement of said rifts to the astral plane, and therefore might be part of it's plan, turning the cast from the crayon times into it's unwitting pawns.
This also explain why it doesn't do anything to go out of open rifts like in Azure City (the gods certainly noticed a rift that big, and it wants them to think it's still trapped), why it attacked Laurin (she intended to actively take stuff from the other side of the rift, wich would definitely have attracted the gods attention, maybe even warned them about it's final goal), and why nothing alive exists on that other world yet (it can't properly finish it before the gods are trapped inside).

The Dark One is a legit Goblin God, elevated due to a year of killing in his name when he got betrayed. So your theory is implausible, unfortunately

[ti'esar]

The Dark One is a legit Goblin God, elevated due to a year of killing in his name when he got betrayed. So your theory is implausible, unfortunately

Strictly speaking, that's only what the goblins believe. Nothing written in crayon can be taken as the absolute truth.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Strictly speaking, that's only what the goblins believe. Nothing written in crayon can be taken as the absolute truth.

Yeah, it's possible that Cazero is right and what Redcloak believes is merely what the "Dark One" wants him to believe. It's a bit of a long shot, but stranger things have happened.

[AbyssStalker]

The IFCC whisk Vaarsuvius away before he falls in combat, possibly heal (or empower) him and then send him back at a convenient time. To further their own plans of course, I mean V is too large of an investment to let die.

[littlebum2002]

Yeah, it's possible that Cazero is right and what Redcloak believes is merely what the "Dark One" wants him to believe. It's a bit of a long shot, but stranger things have happened.

Actually, actually, that's what Redcloak SAYS he believes. We don't know if he is a reliable narrator or not.

[Keltest]

Actually, actually, that's what Redcloak SAYS he believes. We don't know if he is a reliable narrator or not.

He is most definitely NOT a reliable narrator, in that he allows his biases to color his narration. However we have no reason at this time to believe that his entire expressed motivation is actually a lie. There is room for the Dark One to be deceiving him (though Jerix's experience while dead seems to lean way from that), however its unlikely that Redcloak is actually a deliberate and willing minion of the Snarl.

[Tiktik Ironclaw]

I have a couple simple theories with no real effect on the narrative as a whole.

The first is that, in the beginning of the comic, Roy hated Élan for another reason than his constant buffoonery: he was a bard. In DStP, he says that Eric probably would have been a bard, which would mean he'd be in Elan's role in all likelihood. So, Roy may have thought, "Why does he get to live and not him?", before he came to his senses.

Th second is that Zz'dtri yet lives. I thought about this when someone joked that the X's were fake. If you look at the aftermath when the EoS takes the crater, Z's corpse isn't in the pit, so perhaps his patron (maybe a priestess) came and revived him. I can only hope.

[orrion]

I have a couple simple theories with no real effect on the narrative as a whole.

The first is that, in the beginning of the comic, Roy hated Élan for another reason than his constant buffoonery: he was a bard. In DStP, he says that Eric probably would have been a bard, which would mean he'd be in Elan's role in all likelihood. So, Roy may have thought, "Why does he get to live and not him?", before he came to his senses.

Th second is that Zz'dtri yet lives. I thought about this when someone joked that the X's were fake. If you look at the aftermath when the EoS takes the crater, Z's corpse isn't in the pit, so perhaps his patron (maybe a priestess) came and revived him. I can only hope.

I don't think Roy ever "hated" Elan, so I have a hard time buying into that theory.

Far as Z goes, he wasn't killed in the pit and so there's no reason for his corpse to be seen. I also don't see why you think the EoS would have just left the corpse lying around in the first place.

[littlebum2002]

I think there's a fine line between "hating someone" and "leaving them to die"

[Gift Jeraff]

Azurites have blue hair because some of their distant ancestors were elves.

[goto124]

Azurites have blue hair because some of their distant ancestors were elves.

Elves have blue hair?

Wait. They have any color hair. Okay.

[Peelee]

Roy got into Fighter College on an athletic scholarship, because his dad refused to pay.

[AbyssStalker]

Laurin's daughter is redcloack's niece.

MitD is going to destroy Xykon's phylactery by following Xykon's order to devour Redcloak if he betrays him, or if he kills O-Chul.

Therkla's father was the paladin shown being slain on the cover of Start of Darkness, when he mentioned his family while begging to Xykon to spare him, he was talking about Therkla and his wife.

Loki sends Hilga to intercept Durkula before he gets to the last gate.

[orrion]

Roy got into Fighter College on an athletic scholarship, because his dad refused to pay.

Except he did send Roy and he paid 40,000 in tuition a year. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0015.html)




MitD is going to destroy Xykon's phylactery by following Xykon's order to devour Redcloak if he betrays him, or if he kills O-Chul.

The order to devour Redcloak includes spitting out the phylactery.

[Keltest]

The order to devour Redcloak includes spitting out the phylactery.

Actually, he may be onto something. The exact words used were 'Spit out that gold amulet he wears." which is no longer the phylactery. However Xykon doesn't know that Redcloak is still keeping it on his person, so he wouldn't bother to change the command.

[Peelee]

Except he did send Roy and he paid 40,000 in tuition a year. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0015.html)

Noooooooooooooo! Curse your mastery of the first hundred or so strips!

[AbyssStalker]

Except he did send Roy and he paid 40,000 in tuition a year. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0015.html)



The order to devour Redcloak includes spitting out the phylactery.

Based on what you have seen of MitD, what chance between 100-200% do you think he is going to muck that one up, like every other thing Xykon commands.

He might spit it out, JUST MAYBE, in pieces, if he does so at all.

Edit: And how exactly would he not chew it up? Would he try to shift the phylactery around in his mouth while chewing, an entire goblin?

[Peelee]

Actually, he may be onto something. The exact words used were 'Spit out that gold amulet he wears." which is no longer the phylactery. However Xykon doesn't know that Redcloak is still keeping it on his person, so he wouldn't bother to change the command.

Ah, but Redcloak is wearing a different gold amulet. He's not wearing the phylactery, even though it's in his possession.

[ti'esar]

Ah, but Redcloak is wearing a different gold amulet. He's not wearing the phylactery, even though it's in his possession.

We don't know the current location of Xykon's real phylactery. It's possible Redcloak does have it on his person.

[Keltest]

Ah, but Redcloak is wearing a different gold amulet. He's not wearing the phylactery, even though it's in his possession.

Exactly. If Redcloak is no longer wearing the phylactery, the MITD is no longer going to spit it out, should he eat Redcloak as part of the magic.

[Tvtyrant]

Exactly. If Redcloak is no longer wearing the phylactery, the MITD is no longer going to spit it out, should he eat Redcloak as part of the magic.

So are we assuming that the Monster in the Dark can digest magically strengthened phylacteries now?

[Jaxzan Proditor]

So are we assuming that the Monster in the Dark can digest magically strengthened phylacteries now?

Xykon seems to think that it could at least be a problem, or else there would be no need for him to command MitD to spit it out afterwards. Since there's a wide range of things that MitD could be, having that ability doesn't seem to unreasonable an assumption, at least for these purposes.

[Keltest]

Xykon seems to think that it could at least be a problem, or else there would be no need for him to command MitD to spit it out afterwards. Since there's a wide range of things that MitD could be, having that ability doesn't seem to unreasonable an assumption, at least for these purposes.

And even if he cant actually digest the phylactery, Xykon probably doesn't want to regenerate inside the MITD's stomach any more than, say, that of a sea serpent.

[Ron Miel]

Eve & Larry (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0135.html)sold their entire stock of healing potions to Julio (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0937.html).

[AbyssStalker]

And even if he cant actually digest the phylactery, Xykon probably doesn't want to regenerate inside the MITD's stomach any more than, say, that of a sea serpent.

With all that stew in his stomach I would have to say he would have broth that upon himself. But seriously, given how ridiculously strong he is I find it likely that his neck muscles alone would likely shatter it. If he has neck muscles, that is.

But on an unrelated note, another theory, given the fact that Elan was wiped out early in the fight against Crystal, I'm betting that he has something (spell, ability, etc.) that would put Crystal down. Kind of like how V and Durkon are incapacitated in some battles due to their magical/divine ability to curb-stomp some of the enemies the order faces.

I hope Belkar makes good on the analogy he made toward Crystal, dropping a house on her would be hilarious, I mean, she is already pretty homely.

[orrion]

But on an unrelated note, another theory, given the fact that Elan was wiped out early in the fight against Crystal, I'm betting that he has something (spell, ability, etc.) that would put Crystal down. Kind of like how V and Durkon are incapacitated in some battles due to their magical/divine ability to curb-stomp some of the enemies the order faces.

Ok, but Elan was taken out of the fight against the bounty hunters too and he didn't have anything that put them down.

Edit: And he was the first one taken out of the fight with Samantha.

[AbyssStalker]

Ok, but Elan was taken out of the fight against the bounty hunters too and he didn't have anything that put them down.

Edit: And he was the first one taken out of the fight with Samantha.

Well I imagine illusions would be pretty effective against someone as stump-dumb as Crystal.

Edit: Or Enor for that matter, I think you have me on the fight with Samantha, although I can't seem to remember who she is.

[goto124]

Oooh I have an idea! A dummy Haley! Have the flesh golem run after the Mirror Image while actual Haley and Bandana... er... find out how to defeat her?

[orrion]

Well I imagine illusions would be pretty effective against someone as stump-dumb as Crystal.

Edit: Or Enor for that matter, I think you have me on the fight with Samantha, although I can't seem to remember who she is.

Elan was taken out against the bounty hunters because he was the target, though, and he actually did have a few rounds to do things before Enor knocked him out. He spent them punning instead of using illusions. Which is likely what he'd have tried against Crystal, anyway, and with similar results.

Samantha was the sorceress they fought in the bandit camp. Elan was taken out via a Maximized Fireball.

---

The point was that you can't really connect Elan to being taken out of fights like V and/or Durkon. Even if I granted you that illusions might be effective against Crystal and Enor, that's a situational thing and not indicative of the Bard class since a Bard is not usually a class pegged as all-around problem solvers like Wizards or Clerics.

[AbyssStalker]

Elan was taken out against the bounty hunters because he was the target, though, and he actually did have a few rounds to do things before Enor knocked him out. He spent them punning instead of using illusions. Which is likely what he'd have tried against Crystal, anyway, and with similar results.

Samantha was the sorceress they fought in the bandit camp. Elan was taken out via a Maximized Fireball.

---

The point was that you can't really connect Elan to being taken out of fights like V and/or Durkon. Even if I granted you that illusions might be effective against Crystal and Enor, that's a situational thing and not indicative of the Bard class since a Bard is not usually a class pegged as all-around problem solvers like Wizards or Clerics.

Oh I was just suggesting it was possible he was knocked out for the same reason as they are sometimes knocked out this time, not every (or most) times he is incapacitated. I was suggesting that this was perhaps one of the times where he would probably lessen tension by making the situation much less dire by his possible capabilities against Crystal. I think Elan would also be savvy enough to quickly understand that none of their attacks were working and then attempt to use illusions, the fight against Enor was too short lived for a proper adjustment of tactics as he didn't know his pun attack wouldn't be effective as the last round he fought was the first time he punned, he was knocked out directly afterwards.

But just to make this clear, i'm not trying to blanket statement a Bard's usefulness as a comparison to Wizards or Clerics, I was just trying to say maybe this is one of the situational circumstances where he would have ruined (or at least lessened) the dramatic tension if he had been able to contribute in the fight. You CAN compare it to being taken out of fights like V or Durkon, but only for specific situations, it would be wrong however to say that is the reason he is knocked out at any or all times, just like it would be wrong to say that the every time a Wizard or Cleric is taken out of a fight it is because they would just win (although that is the case much of the time), sometimes they are just knocked out for other reasons, just as Elan is at times.

[martianmister]

Eve & Larry (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0135.html)sold their entire stock of healing potions to Julio (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0937.html).

Huh? :smallconfused:

[Keltest]

Huh? :smallconfused:

They think the Eve and Larry are the producers mentioned in the later strip about the advertisement deal.

[Synar]

I've always had a half-serious theory that Tarquin is a "fallen" bard - that is, a bard who violated the "bards cannot become lawful" alignment clause. It would tie in with his rant (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0821.html) about how they should be using their knowledge of narrative structure to rule the world instead of singing in taverns, especially because that rant is one of only a few things I've ever seen to actually imply a (parodic) reason for why bards can't be lawful. And it would tie in a lot better to the Darth Vader jokes then the idea that he's a blackguard or other form of fallen paladin would (something I saw people seriously suggest in the past).

I'm a new fan of this theory.

[hamishspence]

If we saw him using a "bard-only ability" (since fallen bards retain all their bard powers - they just can't take more bard levels) that could prove the theory to be in fact correct.

[Keltest]

If we saw him using a "bard-only ability" (since fallen bards retain all their bard powers - they just can't take more bard levels) that could prove the theory to be in fact correct.

Given that he is wearing a suit of full plate mail almost every time we see him, I doubt he makes use of many of their combat abilities. Correct me if im wrong, but anything heavier than a Chain Shirt causes bards to suffer from spell failure, right? And using a bard song would require Tarquin to not be fighting.

[hamishspence]

Bardic Knowledge checks maybe. Still not very useful if one only has a couple of levels in bard and is now high level in Something Else - but its one way to say "This guy was an active bard once".

[Keltest]

Bardic Knowledge checks maybe. Still not very useful if one only has a couple of levels in bard and is now high level in Something Else - but its one way to say "This guy was an active bard once".

Indeed. Although I suspect were done with Tarquin for a while, so it will remain a mystery unless the Giant decides to grace us with an answer.

[AbyssStalker]

Crystal Golem runs into Durkula and in the ensuing battle with Haley and Durkula VS. Crystal , Roy is fighting Bozzok and possibly any more golems Grub might have brought, Durkula acts contrary to Durkon's character by (possibly) leaving Haley to die by Crystals hands (or some other willing abandonment), Elan saves her (or Bandana's) from death at Crystals hands with the Cure Wounds wand. Belkar finds his way back at some point and the final (or at least vindicated) fight against Durkula and Belkar begins.

Grub might be able to give Durkon re-control by making him an improved flesh golem, or once Durkula has been slain he does so.

Varsuvius might fight Grub, ending with Var charming him and having him turn Durkula into an improved Golem with free will.

Out of nowhere guess: MitD somehow finds his way into the scene and is angered by Crystal, who is quickly decimated./ Redcloak in Xykon come in at the worst time. These last two are with absolutely no evidence supporting, but just in case...

[HuntedWalrus]

Unprovable... so far...:

My theory on the MITD is that he is...
A Fomorian toddler. Medium-sized and immature because he's young; magically-connected because he's fey; not native to the rain forest because he's native to the Underdark, but hasn't been enculturated into the darkness and so likes light. Also, the bigger eye is intentional. People think he's ugly. Fomorians usually don't speak Common, or to mortals in general, but MITD could figure out Common and wasn't raised not to speak it.


Just my 2 gp.

Last time I posted this theory, it vanished within 24 hours. Can't find it on the forum ANYWHERE. And I did the Spoiler thing and everything, which went wonky when I tried posting this the first time.

Dun dun DUN!

[AbyssStalker]

Belkar will use exploding pineapples to wound and/or kill Crystal Golem, I reason that is because both of them have used improvised thrown weapons (Pineapples and pickles respectivly) somewhat ineffectively, but when Crystal attacked Haley, Haley fooled her to check the +s on her pickles to overcome her DR (buying her time). Well guess who now has massive DR? Just a another guess nothing substantial.

[veti]

O-Chul is half-dwarf.

Evidence:

Inhumanly high CON
Relatively low CHA
Beard
It's hard to be sure, but I think he's also marginally shorter than most of the people around him.

[orrion]

Crystal Golem runs into Durkula and in the ensuing battle with Haley and Durkula VS. Crystal , Roy is fighting Bozzok and possibly any more golems Grub might have brought, Durkula acts contrary to Durkon's character by (possibly) leaving Haley to die by Crystals hands (or some other willing abandonment), Elan saves her (or Bandana's) from death at Crystals hands with the Cure Wounds wand. Belkar finds his way back at some point and the final (or at least vindicated) fight against Durkula and Belkar begins.

Grub might be able to give Durkon re-control by making him an improved flesh golem, or once Durkula has been slain he does so.

Varsuvius might fight Grub, ending with Var charming him and having him turn Durkula into an improved Golem with free will.

Out of nowhere guess: MitD somehow finds his way into the scene and is angered by Crystal, who is quickly decimated./ Redcloak in Xykon come in at the worst time. These last two are with absolutely no evidence supporting, but just in case...

How can a fight prediction like this be an "unprovable theory?" We'll know whether you're right or not in pretty short order.

[martianmister]

Belkar was talking (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0616.html) about Tsukiko, not Sabine.

[anthropomorphic]

This ones a bit... far fetched I admit, even for this thread. Jirix is a polymorphed member of the resistance and is now secretly in control of Gobotopia. This is based off of when Thanh mentioned they had spies and I'm pretty sure the hobbo we saw was jirix sending with him. Also, he had a weird reaction when Redcloak said he had destroyed the resistance, looking more horridfied than happy. Am I insane?

[hamishspence]

This ones a bit... far fetched I admit, even for this thread. Jirix is a polymorphed member of the resistance and is now secretly in control of Gobotopia. This is based off of when Thanh mentioned they had spies and I'm pretty sure the hobbo we saw was jirix sending with him. Also, he had a weird reaction when Redcloak said he had destroyed the resistance, looking more horridfied than happy. Am I insane?

Interesting idea. In Don't Split The Party, The Giant states that Jirix is the hobgoblin cleric that Miko kills here:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0461.html

resurrected and given a promotion.

[anthropomorphic]

True, but I think they could have replaced him you know? I'm almost 100% sure it's jirix we see thanh sends to... I just don't remember the comic number... and his reaction to the news is just so... off you know? And he crushed a demon roach which no other evil character has done

[hamishspence]

An unnamed cleric sends a message to Jirix "The phylactery has been found". One of the hobgoblins in the foreground has a scowl on his face:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0825.html

I'm guessing that's him.

And when Jirix discovers the Resistance has been destroyed, he's in the process of being choked by Xykon:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0832.html

[anthropomorphic]

OH YEA... well there goes THAT crackpot theory... wait does that mean there is still a polymorphed hobo spy in gobotopia?

[hamishspence]

wait does that mean there is still a polymorphed hobo spy in gobotopia?

Quite possibly. Unless Jirix has instituted a "spy-hunting purge" which has claimed him.

[orrion]

OH YEA... well there goes THAT crackpot theory... wait does that mean there is still a polymorphed hobo spy in gobotopia?

Doubtful. The hobbo that was polymorphed said something like "What, you guys think you invented polymorphed spies?" That line doesn't make sense unless they had already found a polymorphed spy.

[hamishspence]

Maybe he was close enough to overhear that bit of conversation?

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0825.html

[goodpeople25]

Doubtful. The hobbo that was polymorphed said something like "What, you guys think you invented polymorphed spies?" That line doesn't make sense unless they had already found a polymorphed spy.

True but heres my theory, there was more then one polymorph spy but the goblins stopped looking cause they used divination magic when the spy they caught said he was the only one, but they didn't know about the obscure feat or class ability from a source book redcloak hasn't read.

[Ghost Nappa]

The Snarl will unmake a sufficiently devastating amount of reality but will stopped in some manner by the Order of the Stick and things will be restored either entirely or partially.

[orrion]

True but heres my theory, there was more then one polymorph spy but the goblins stopped looking cause they used divination magic when the spy they caught said he was the only one, but they didn't know about the obscure feat or class ability from a source book redcloak hasn't read.

I don't see why they would believe the spy, and even if they did there's no reason to stop searching for future spies. Also, a basic rule of spying is that you don't tell your spies how many of them there are precisely so they can't give the others away.

The major deterrent to your theory is that Polymorph has a time limit, and we know the Resistance was pretty low on casters that were above level 3 (yes, that was Clerics, but still). It's just not believable that they had a bunch of level 4+ Wizards and Sorcerers (or scrolls, etc) to continually Polymorph a bunch of spies even with the elves helping. Now that the Resistance is gone, any spy that was left at the time would quickly run out of whatever resources allowing him/her/them to remain Polymorphed.

[StriderITP]

Another MitD theory, but I think they're a Sharn. No, not the city of towers, but the strange aberration from Anauroch (I think that's where it's from, I have to check again). I'm basing this theory mostly on the part where MitD made a wish with almost no effort, and Sharn have some funky spell-like abilities.

[orrion]

Another MitD theory, but I think they're a Sharn. No, not the city of towers, but the strange aberration from Anauroch (I think that's where it's from, I have to check again). I'm basing this theory mostly on the part where MitD made a wish with almost no effort, and Sharn have some funky spell-like abilities.

Sharn have 3 heads, and they also have a tail instead of feet. Makes it kind of hard for MiTD to do a stomp with a tail. Description also says they prefer to float or fly, and we haven't seen the MiTD do either of those things.

Oh, and they're supposed to have a group mind.

[StriderITP]

Sharn have 3 heads, and they also have a tail instead of feet. Makes it kind of hard for MiTD to do a stomp with a tail. Description also says they prefer to float or fly, and we haven't seen the MiTD do either of those things.

Oh, and they're supposed to have a group mind.

The stomp could've been an Earthquake spell-like ability, we already established that it has up to 9th level spells like Wish. No real stomp needed. And for all we know, MitD is actually floating, we wouldn't know since we don't see how it moves. The only thing that I can't disprove is the lack of a group mind.

[Torzini]

The stomp could've been an Earthquake spell-like ability, we already established that it has up to 9th level spells like Wish. No real stomp needed. And for all we know, MitD is actually floating, we wouldn't know since we don't see how it moves. The only thing that I can't disprove is the lack of a group mind.

As can be seen in the twelfth panel here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html), the MitD is shown to do a literal *stomp* from his hind...area/leg/whatever, so it seems very likely that the stomping is exactly that.

[orrion]

The stomp could've been an Earthquake spell-like ability, we already established that it has up to 9th level spells like Wish. No real stomp needed. And for all we know, MitD is actually floating, we wouldn't know since we don't see how it moves. The only thing that I can't disprove is the lack of a group mind.

You ignored the 3 heads thing.

As Torzini said, the stomp is very clearly an actual stomp. It's radiating out from him, as well, whereas when Redcloak casts Earthquake it seems to be general destruction.

Anyway, on the whole, I would say this is the wrong place for MiTD theories. There's an entire thread dedicated to that. You should post there.

[brian 333]

Okay, new theory for Belkar's future:

He draws his last breath soon because he has an accidental encounter with the Gender-Changing belt just before he is transported into the past. He meets a dying halfling adventurer and assumes her place in history, eventually building Kraggor's Tomb before wandering out of history to die a happy old grandmother with a house full of cats.

The good news is, he installs a secret path to the gate that can only be discovered by the most convoluted series of mischances which assures Elan will find it immediately, thereby getting Oots to the Gate ahead of the bad guys.