Building the 5e Gish

[mgrinshpon]

The gish: casting in melee and swinging weapons around. It looks like the 3.5e wisdom for character building still holds:

Never lose caster levels
Have a to-hit at least as good as a fighter
Have decent AC
Never lose caster levels
Handle the classic gish MAD problem

Caster levels here really mean level 9 spell slots and preferably a spell that can fill them. The standard point buy is super low making it hard to get 20 in two different attributes by level 20 and still take juicy feats. Given this, has anyone found any good builds?

Here are some builds I've found:

Paladin 6/Bard 14 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17908758&postcount=4): Heavy armor (no dex needed!), use Charisma for everything including +attack, +saving throws, and spellcasting. You get just enough spellcasting levels to get the level 17 spellcaster level 9 slot.
Fighter 2/Bard 18: Heavy armor, action surge, 18 levels of bardic spellcasting meaning the full 22 bard spells known.
Fighter 1/Bard 19: Heavy armor, 19 levels of bardic spellcasting meaning the full 22 bard spells known. No fighter action surge but 1 extra ability score increase. May be necessary depending on your point buy or rolls. +Proficiency to Constitution meaning easier to maintain spellcasting.

I haven't looked into Clerics and Druids too closely. Wizards and Sorcerers both don't get an extra attack so I'm not sure how well that will work.

[Human Paragon 3]

Cyberthread mentioned that warlocks now make pretty good gishes by themselves, with d8HP and spells/class features that work well up-close with the blade pact. Throw in Mountain Dwarf for armor and weapon proficiency and you're well on your way. Remember, everyone has the same to-hit bonus now.

Similarly, College of Valor Bard is a fine gish without bothering to dip at all. The fighter dip may or may not improve things.

[mgrinshpon]

Remember, everyone has the same to-hit bonus now.
Not quite, you still need 20 str using a regular melee weapon or 20 dex using a finesse melee weapon (less damage) at level 20 to get the same to-hit bonus as a dedicated melee character who probably has 20 in those attributes at 20.



Similarly, College of Valor Bard is a fine gish without bothering to dip at all. The fighter dip may or may not improve things.
The problem with the 20 levels of college of valor bard is that he needs 14 dex for medium armor, 20 charisma by level 20, and 20 strength by level 20. With the heavy MAD there, that means you're potentially missing out on awesome gish feats like War Caster. Using the 27 point buy and dumping everything under the sun, a Dragonborn Bard with the starting stat pool (not counting the dragonborn himself) of 14/14/12/8/8/15 just meets the 27 point limit, hits 20 str and 20 cha by level 20, allows for a single feat, and gets a little bit of extra HP through a +1 to constitution. The caveat is that your will and int saves suck.

[Yorrin]

stuff

Although you mentioned it at the beginning of the last post you seem to be neglecting Dex-focused gishes in your builds. For example a Valor-Bard with a rapier is not significantly behind a Str weapon for damage (equal if you're not using a 2h weapon), and would have a better AC, a stronger Dex save (which is a commonly targeted save), and is less MAD.

[CyberThread]

I don't think you need maxed stats to be an egishffective gish especially with how much spells you get and an auto full bab.

You have several types of gish this edition.

Fighter eldritch knight provides I think the weakest magic gish but the strongest feat based fighter. You gain access to several attack methods and delayed spell gains.

Bard valor gains the double attack loads of spells and skill manipulations but could be the hardest to make due too stat distributions. This gish is more of a team player.

Warlock pact of chain is a more a magic based gish like the bard but a higher self serving nature. It has easy double attack several spamable abilities that allow it to go nova without as much worry about resources.due too getting spells back after just a short rest. The spell list is also friendly towards battlefield control and movement.

[mgrinshpon]

Although you mentioned it at the beginning of the last post you seem to be neglecting Dex-focused gishes in your builds. For example a Valor-Bard with a rapier is not significantly behind a Str weapon for damage (equal if you're not using a 2h weapon), and would have a better AC, a stronger Dex save (which is a commonly targeted save), and is less MAD.

Yeah, it's close. A rapier is doing 1d8+dex (avg 4.5+dex) whereas a polearm is doing 1d10+str (avg 5.5+str) and a greatsword is doing 2d6+str (7+str). Adding in Crossbow Expert or Dual Wielder increases the damage. Defensive Duelist makes AC go quite high and Haste gives another +2. The thing to remember is that a rapier can also be used as a regular non-finesse weapon. If attempting to max-out AC, heavy armored, high level bards are going to have 19 AC from Plate+2 from Shield+2 from Haste if up+a maximum +6 from defensive duelist.

Question: do all gishes need some combination of the war caster feat, resilient feat, and/or proficiency in Constitution saving throws to be able to maintain concentration or could pushing up AC so high you're unhittable also work?

[Serafina]

7th-level Eldritch Knight with at least two levels in Warlock.
Cast Eldritch Blast for 1D10+Charisma damage (with Agonizing Blast), then follow up with a weapon attack. Gain more beams as you level up, ending with 4D10+(Charisma x4).
By RAW you can take Lifedrinker at 12th level even with Multiclassing to add Charisma again to your weapon damage.

Pact Magic synergizes well with Spellcasting since it gives you extra spellslots to play with for your Warlock-spells and extra spells to cast with your spellcasting-slots. Granted, it doesn't actually boost the level of spells you can cast, so the above combination can only gain up to 7th-level spell.

[CadilLACi]

7th-level Eldritch Knight with at least two levels in Warlock.
Cast Eldritch Blast for 1D10+Charisma damage (with Agonizing Blast), then follow up with a weapon attack. Gain more beams as you level up, ending with 4D10+(Charisma x4).
By RAW you can take Lifedrinker at 12th level even with Multiclassing to add Charisma again to your weapon damage.

Pact Magic synergizes well with Spellcasting since it gives you extra spellslots to play with for your Warlock-spells and extra spells to cast with your spellcasting-slots. Granted, it doesn't actually boost the level of spells you can cast, so the above combination can only gain up to 7th-level spell.

One of my best Gish-es

Sword Coast Adventring Guide, Bladesinger
Possibly lvl 20 straight wizard, you can throw in some 1 lvl fighter if u want a fighting style.
By lvl 20 get DEX 20 INT 20 -> AC will be 10+5 DEX +3 mage armor + 2 bracers of defense + 5 INT form bladesinging, that is AC 25 just from one item.
You can upp this pretty far....., take shield, absorb elements, blur and improved invisiblity, and your DM will start designing special enemies to fight you.

SCAG has melee attack cantrips and spells too, but in my opinion gish is someone who casts regular spells on the frontline and hits with melee attacks as extra damage...

[Afrodactyl]

I'm currently running a swords bard and it's a perfectly respectable frontline fighter/blaster/supporter.

[bid]

Sword Coast Adventring Guide, Bladesinger
That's a 3-year-old thread, bladesinger didn't exist.

[Citan]

That's a 3-year-old thread, bladesinger didn't exist.
"Lazarus, get outta this thread!" XD

[Davrix]

What about a valor bard with a dip into hexblade? That would free up needing all that str and if you took dwarf for the armor that should leave you open for pumping char up to 20 and picking up some good feats :)

[bid]

"Lazarus, get outta this thread!" XD
Yer lucky this aint my lawn, cuz I'd be shaking my stick at yall!

[krunchyfrogg]

Hexblade 1 combined with any charisma caster works.

Arcana cleric with shillelagh allows everything to be keyed off WIS.

[MrStabby]

One thing that is surprisingly good is the spellcaster with dumped spell casting stats. With no need to multiclass it is perfectly legal. I have been mainly playing with PHB so not thoughts on XgtE here. I am also commenting mainly on levels up to ten or eleven.

I found that feypact warlock works well as a gish with a lot of nice spells from the pact that don't need Cha. Bladepact can give you two attacks and some nice martial attributes. By using dwarf for race you can cover off armour and the hitpoint deficit.

Likewise Valor bard can work well dumping Cha. Pure strength, great weapon... you can take spells like conjure animals and similar with magical secrets and thwere are loads of good bard spells that don't use charisma.


If you add in spells like booming blade then just about any caster can make an OK gish.