View Full Version : It feels so good to be so bad...

2007-03-05, 01:38 PM
You're it. You and you're "companions" are the ones who strike fear into others. You don't blow up towns and slay 1000's on a whim. That's for amateurs. Everything you do, you consider. You think about it first. It is always a calculated move. If you MUST destroy a town, you make sure to cover your tracks, leave clues that lead nowhere. Things to keep the rubes occupied while you pursue your real interests. Your three compatriots and yourself are interested in different facets of power and control. You want the control, the power, everything. The fate of everyone else in your hands. That sort of thing. You can even sometimes liken yourself to the fools who "wish to protect all that is good". They want the power to control events as well. Just not so easily admitting to it.

Now then, given that motivation, how would the population of these boards(those who wish to voice their opinions) choose the baddie group that fits into this schemata?

I'm looking for suggestions on a good bad guy group. So far I've been thinking wizard, cleric, necromancer, and some type of tank. But that's just my idea.

I am vastly interested in the opinions of the well-spoken members of these forums who wish to supply well-thought ideas. That's all. So please feel free to post. And thank you in advance.

(ADDENDUM: Please realize that though, yes I am looking for powerful characters, I do not really want posts stating how I should stat out 4 wizards or 4 druids or 4 clerics. Though powerful, it would be extremely boring. I am looking for quality as much as quantity. Again, thank you in advance.)

2007-03-05, 02:55 PM
This campaign premise sounds like a job for a manipulation-bard, for at least one of the party members anyway.

2007-03-05, 03:09 PM
Yes, you should definitely have some kind of behind the scenes manipulator.
The spy-master PrC seems to fit the theme. Unfortunately it's 3.0 and mechanically underpowered, but as I said, it fits. Anyway it's in Song and Silence.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-03-05, 03:11 PM
Consider a ranger that takes up the combat trapsmith prestige class (CoS). Besides being sneaky and good at leaving no tracks, he can also foritfy an area with deadly traps quick and easy. I mean, a guy that you can't track with a penchant for making it look like following a trap-laden path might get you closer to him? Man, I'd love to play that.

Fax Celestis
2007-03-05, 03:14 PM
Yes, you should definitely have some kind of behind the scenes manipulator.
The spy-master PrC seems to fit the theme. Unfortunately it's 3.0 and mechanically underpowered, but as I said, it fits. Anyway it's in Song and Silence.

Spymaster got 3.5ed in Comp. Adventurer.

Consider some of the following: a Beguiler/Mindbender/Master of Masks; a Rogue/Mountebank; a Paladin/Blackguard; a Druid/Blighter; a Dragon Shaman of an evil dragon.

2007-03-05, 03:17 PM
Oh, hadn't seen that. Is it any better than the 3.0 version?

2007-03-05, 03:17 PM
Ahem...switch to Game of Thrones. D20 based it's all about intrigue and not so much crazy spell slingers.

2007-03-05, 03:42 PM
If you are converting anything to 3.5 it should be the Courtier from the 3.5 setting.

I most definitely recommend the Bard with Disguise spell and Deceptive Spell. This let's you cast those enchantment spells even while people watch you and they will never know what hit them.

Necro seems really obvious though encha is the evilest of schools with illus as second. So if you don't want the bard, the Master Specialist Enchanter does not let people's natures get in the way of his mind control abilities. That way, people unaware that they are being manipulated will be doing vile acts and they think they are doing it out of their ow free will too.

Theme-wise, Ur-priest is awesome for leading the faithful astray.

2007-03-05, 04:20 PM
Thrallherd? An army of people that look just like everyone else, that have families and things, that you can use as puppets in your own goals...

2007-03-05, 05:42 PM
if there is a necro there needs to be some item that allows for extra undead controll. sure he keeps a large red dragon, three moose, and two ettin skeletons on hand, but why show off all that and have a player go home, look up skeleton HD and say: he's a level eighteen necro! no, you want to show off a litteral army of humanoid skeletons that any metagamer would see as a level twenty necro, then just have them all be controled by some outside source (some item or a few apprentices maybe?) and then when they think they got to him his real undead show up.

never messed with an ur-preist, but it sounds like what your seeking.

tank wise, i'd say fighter, cleric, or ranger, if you build them right they can show quite a bit of cunning. or maybe a druid, dragon magazine has a few tweaks that allow turning into other things. but if you want someone who plans things out, not a barb.

good luck and have fun?

2007-03-05, 05:46 PM

Friends and adults, they all say... they all say that I'm a good kid.

What is a good kid?!

Studious, well-mannered, always in good spirits, gentle, and smiling.

ENOUGH! I've had it! ENOUGH! I'm going to stop being a good kid!

I want to see more of the real me! Having fun being lazy, I love feeling like this.

Only now am I happy where I'm being bad.

It's like an ideal dream, where I'm superior.

This world is dirty, to not have dreams... I've been tired of it since I was born.

The boring lies of love and justice. I grew up being deceived by love and justice!

*stops singing*

Sounds like a neat idea. I can't suggest fancy classes, but the "craftier than usual" Rogue, the oppressing Barbarian or the shifty Fighter are all directions which I think characters can be taken and fit in.

Tor the Fallen
2007-03-05, 07:48 PM
Necromancers are such obvious bad guys.

2007-03-05, 07:54 PM
They are a bit cliche, aren't they?

Gray Elf Assassin/Bladesingers make fun villains. :smallamused:

2007-03-05, 08:19 PM
Yes, assuming that none of the four should be obvious mwa-ha-ha baddies, I'd suggest something like:

Beguiler with the leadership feat.
Rogue/Spymaster, also with the leadership feat.

Two to bend the laws of physics, two to shape society to your whims.

Tor the Fallen
2007-03-05, 10:54 PM
I mean with the legions of corpses and skeletons, hanging out in crypts, and the pale white skin. Not exactly the most subtle BBEG out there.

2007-03-06, 12:30 AM
Half Elf Bard with soothing voice, shuts down the battle. Team him up with an invisible assassin for "WTF is happening?" fun

2007-03-06, 12:41 AM
One enchanter sorcerer. Just because.

"...and in later news... the leader of the anti-(law x) movement inexplicably changed his mind overnight..."

2007-03-06, 12:45 AM
A diviner with the leadership feat or otherwise lots of minions. Your enemies find it odd that you seem to know their every move (or thereabouts). Knowledge is power.

Also, something with cool but unique visuals, like the classes from Magic of Incarnum, can be fun to play as bad guys.

Finally, you might consider making up your own class. As long as its balanced, the best villains are those who are unique.

PnP Fan
2007-03-06, 09:05 AM
Concur, go with d20 Game of Thrones. Leave D&D behind.
Given that it's a $50 book, though, let's assume that you are going to stick with D&D:
A high level rogue/assassin with enough leadership to control the underworld, in several cities.
A behind the scenes manipulator (enchanter or bard) for obvious reasons.
A general wizard, perhaps with an archmage or similar PrC, also with leadership, to grant you access to all of the specialist wizards you want, and the variety of evil they can summon (best to change motifs when creating your artificial disasters, that way Scooby Doo can't immediately figure out "Rit's a recromaner!!!!")
Then some kind of monstrous race with levels in a spellcaster class. A half-dragon sorcerer is good fodder. Or perhaps some kind of cleric. Another option might be a druid/sorcerer type. Basically your fourth character needs to be someone who can operate independantly, and work with the wild people (barbarian tribes/orc tribes/goblin nations/etc. ..), and stir them up on cue. I wouldn't suggest a barbarian though, your tribesmen will more likely respect someone who can do things they can't, like a spellcaster.

I would make sure that these villains never act directly, except the wilderness character. They act through third party villains. The general MO is for the villains to create artificial problems (barbarian/orc invasion, whatever). Then use this invasion/problem for the manipulators to influence the politics of the area. Perhaps concentrate political power to a single individual (who happens to have a good alignment, btw). And then they can manipulate the heck out of this one figure to make their lives better. Rinse, repeat. Oh, and did I mention that you need to become a really good liar? If you are going to run intrigue, you have to be a good liar.

2007-03-06, 10:45 AM
I would have a more subtle type Blackguard, one interested in using deception rather than brute force.

A warlock may also fit that role quite nicely

2007-03-06, 11:18 AM
Wizard(Diviner), Cleric(Death), Psion(Telepath), Bard. If you want to get messy with prestige classes go Archmage, necro-something, Thrallherd, Spymaster.

Knowledge control, soul control, mind control, people control.

2007-03-06, 06:24 PM
Wizard(Diviner), Cleric(Death), Psion(Telepath), Bard. If you want to get messy with prestige classes go Archmage, necro-something, Thrallherd, Spymaster.

Knowledge control, soul control, mind control, people control.

If you want mind control, go with the Enchanter or Beguiler instead. Knowledge Control is the domain of Psion(Seer)s with the Thrallherd PrC. A personal army of loyal minions (completely expendable, too: Believers don't have the "has caused deaths" or "cruelty" penalties), a decently powerful henchman (thralls are capped at one level below yours, rather than two), incredible knowledge... oh, and did I mention you can eventually Dominate someone on another continent through Remote Viewing?

2007-03-07, 06:31 AM
I'm gonna get a bit out into left field here.

1) Warlock 6/Binder 2/Mindbender 3. Invocations include Beguiling Influence and Charm, with later option for Devil's Whispers from Cityscape. You can leave it as Binder 1, since you're only ever going to be binding Naberius, and with him you can Bluff that you have a sore throat no problem. Warlock will fit with the LE that you seem to be going for in your opening, and you've got some decent advancement options open after the listed progression. Hellfire Warlock (Fiendish Codex II, available on wizards.com) is an obvious one for when you want to add some burning rape to your diplomacy. Toss in Able Learner (Races of Destiny) at 1st so you won't be TOO hurting thanks to all those levels of 2+Int mod skill points. Main points for him will be Bluff and Diplomacy, with of course some Use Magic Device thrown in. Diplomacy is there because you WILL be needing to make nice with people who have things you need to get before you dispose of them. Sure, you can pick up an option that lets you use Bluff, but then that gets people angry at you.

2) Cleric with Trickery domain. You'll be wanting to leave any happy sappy groups of heroes hunting for you high and dry, which Bluff and Disguise will help with. Ideally, you'll have both skills maxed on all your party. Fill your 2nd-level slots with Undetectable Alignment, get a wand of it, whatever. You do NOT want some detect-happy paladin giving your underpants a scorching just because you went out without your Goody-Two-Shoes Block. For obvious reasons, I recommend against undead control, as fascinating as it may be.

3) Artificer, if available. Some campaigns besides Eberron DO allow the Artificer, and he can be a handy addition to any team. Provided the rest of the party is forward-thinking enough to give him money (and later, unneeded magic items) to do his thing, you will be better-equipped than 80% of other adventuring parties, which in turn will give you an edge against those meddling kids.

4) Monk. If you use all three of those above, you'll be fairly low on beat sticks. Cleric works in a pinch, but isn't optimal. You don't want a dumb fighter, either. Always too likely to gossip something about your plan while he's in his cups. Barbarian's even worse, but Monk has the personal code to stick by you and see your plans through. Give them some buffs from your Cleric and they'll be your friends for life.

Anyway, a team of LE and even an LN or two villains can work together quite well for the subjugation of the world and the humiliation of so-called heroes. Have fun.