PDA

View Full Version : Pathfinder 3.5 > Pathfinder Warlock Conversion



GogglesVK
2014-08-10, 12:35 PM
I've posted this elsewhere on the forum, but was told this subforum was more fitting. You can pretty much skip my writing below, unless you reeeeeaaaally want to help me out. I think I'm nearing the final edit.

Here is the write-up/conversion for the D&D 3.5 Warlock. (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1S46D6nD1W2Px3wVSjy4Ws9ZycSIHQxfZHQ6Fcn54DhU/edit?usp=sharing)


It is based upon this (http://dndtools.eu/classes/warlock/). And this (http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/warlock.pl) is the original class' invocation list. If this is not allowed to be posted, inform me.


Basically, I would like all of your opinions on whether this is balanced or not and checking to see if I overlooked something. I'm pretty new to tabletop RPGs, but so far, one of my favorite experiences was playing a warlock in 3.5. I want to do a balanced conversion for them, to bring them to a game I think is better than 3.5 (PF).

Let me start off by saying that the Warlock in 3.5 is generally considered to be underpowered. They bring relatively little utility but do good, consistent damage. After level 7 or so, Wizards and Sorcerers gain more spells and spells per day and can out blast and out-utility the Warlock. At higher levels, this damage gap is more severe. Also, people tend to think of the Warlock as a spellcaster. They aren't. They're more like an archer with magic-like abilities.

My main concern with this warlock is that a lot of their strong invocations simply last for 24 hours and are at-will abilities with unlimited uses. That's not something I've noticed PF doing much. But, with that said, warlocks only get 3 least, 3 lesser, 3 greater and 3 dark invocations. And that's for a level 20 lock. They are much more limited in what they can do when compared to a Wizard, Sorcerer or Cleric. Therefore, it may not be too bad of a thing to allow a Warlock to be specifically good at a few of these things, in order to mitigate the general lack of utility they have. This is especially true when you remember a Warlock must still sacrifice invocation slots to access eldritch essences and blast shapes.

I also felt the class lacked a real reason to commit to leveling 20 levels and didn't have an awesome capstone. I decided Patrons and Mysteries added a lot of flavor, so I decided to give my PF Warlock a choice of one patron/mystery and grant them invocations based on that, with a Final Revelation/Grand Hex at level 20. Good or bad idea?

Are any of the currently listed invocations too OP/UP? I had to delete a least invocation (Earthen Grasp) and 2 lesser invocations (Stony Grasp and Wall of Gloom) because they didn't have PF equivalents. I also got rid of the original's Beguiling Influence invocation and added The Beguiling Presence ability.

Examples of possible ways to buff the Warlock:


Allow the Warlock to qualify for an Improved Familiar based upon their pact at a certain level (likely 7th-10th somewhere). Would have to pay and spend time finding it.
Free language dependent on pact
More blast shape or eldritch essence invocations to choose from
Create an Extra Invocation feat
Add class skills based on pact



Examples of possible ways to nerf the Warlock:


Get rid of energy resistence
Limit invocations per day to X + Charisma mod (possibly separate blast shape and eldritch essence invocations to remain unlimited)
Limit invocations to X + Charisma mod rounds/minutes/hours, like many Witch hexes do



I know this is long, but I'd really like input on this, as I'd like to present it to my GM to play. Also, are there any glaring typos/misprints/glitches you noticed? Thank you.

AmberVael
2014-08-10, 12:41 PM
Examples of possible ways to nerf the Warlock:


Get rid of energy resistence
Limit invocations per day to X + Charisma mod (possibly separate blast shape and eldritch essence invocations to remain unlimited)
Limit invocations to X + Charisma mod rounds/minutes/hours, like many Witch hexes do



1) Warlock reaaaaally doesn't need nerfing.
2) While its true that Pathfinder seems to despise things that aren't limited in daily use, if you make such a change to warlock the whole design of the class just crumbles. All of its invocations are balanced around being unlimited use, and if you alter that, what is passable and balanced now will often become useless or just completely inferior to what another class can already do unless you give them a truly prodigious number of uses... at which point why not just make it unlimited, because that's effectively what you've done.

GogglesVK
2014-08-10, 12:51 PM
1) Warlock reaaaaally doesn't need nerfing.
2) While its true that Pathfinder seems to despise things that aren't limited in daily use, if you make such a change to warlock the whole design of the class just crumbles. All of its invocations are balanced around being unlimited use, and if you alter that, what is passable and balanced now will often become useless or just completely inferior to what another class can already do unless you give them a truly prodigious number of uses... at which point why not just make it unlimited, because that's effectively what you've done.

Good points. Over the last day of rereading this, I've come to see I didn't need to nerf them at all, really. I've talked to a few other people, and they've given me the same idea as you. I was just worried I might have given them too much as a buff in crossing over to PF. That and perma-flight and invis seemed like it'd get on a GM's nerves.

But they can get over it. :P

AmberVael
2014-08-10, 01:23 PM
Now that I've had a chance to look over the real meat of your conversion, here are some thoughts.

Patron/Mystery access. Invocations are designed to be used at will. Spells generally aren't. There are a lot of lower level spells you might get from Nether Pact that would be okay, but some are quite powerful at will (Haste, Major Image, Beast Shape) while many of the higher level spells you could get at level 14 would just be plain broken (Greater Shadow Conjuration being one of the more terrifying options ). Generally, I strongly discourage homebrew that allows access to handpicked at will spells. You see it turn up in warlock homebrew from time to time, but I've never seen it done well- by the time you do it well, you generally have just made some new invocations.

Baleful utterance. Previously, it was a 2nd level invocation, and was generally considered a decent invocation. Making it 3rd level just makes it harder to resist, which means it is a buff, which I don't know if it really needs? Its pretty minor though.

Luck of the Nether. I think I see what you're going for with making it once per day, but it isn't actually necessary and it nerfs it harder than you might think. If my suspicions are correct, you don't want someone to just use it three times and get the bonus to all their saves, yeah? The good news is that there is already a rule that covers that:

Same Effect with Differing Results

The same spell can sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same recipient more than once. Usually the last spell in the series trumps the others. None of the previous spells are actually removed or dispelled, but their effects become irrelevant while the final spell in the series lasts.
Meanwhile, if you can only use it once per day and someone dispels your invocation... well, no more invocation for the day. So really, it was fine as is.

Pact of Stone. I can't see this invocation being terribly useful, honestly. Stoneskin is a nice spell, but if you have to concentrate to really use it, then it becomes pretty underpowered since you aren't doing anything but defending. I would suggest an invocation that lets you boost the DR you already have as a warlock, and perhaps as an interesting little bonus, change its type in a limited manner (when you use the invocation, swap between say cold iron, silver, and adamantine DR). If you decide to keep it closer to what it is though, I'd like to note that the last line is pretty unnecessary, given this rule:

If a creature has damage reduction from more than one source, the two forms of damage reduction do not stack. Instead, the creature gets the benefit of the best damage reduction in a given situation.

Warlock's Gaze. I worry that this may be a little too much. Hold person isn't a great spell, but making it at will really makes it better. Its an ability that may really polarize combat, I think- if it works, its gonna make things really easy. When it doesn't work, its a complete waste of space on your character sheet. Swingy stuff like that is kinda bad for balance.

GogglesVK
2014-08-10, 07:09 PM
Thanks a whole bunch! This will all be taken into consideration.