Paragon Template

[Max Caysey]

How do you guys feel about the Paragon Template from ELH? Any experience with using it? I have just made a level 16 drow, with this template CR 30 in all... its pretty sick!

[Immabozo]

I have used it in super cheese to get all the benefits and none of the LA, I like it better that way.

[Darkweave31]

I have used it in super cheese to get all the benefits and none of the LA, I like it better that way.

Oh? Do tell...

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Oh? Do tell...

Use a paragon animal as part of a lycanthrope, or a paragon quadruped as part of a tauric creature, or a paragon guest on a symbiotic creature. All of those templates only count the humanoid's/host's level adjustment, but not any of the level adjustment of the other creature. Don't expect any DM to allow those shenanigans, though.

[Immabozo]

Use a paragon animal as part of a lycanthrope, or a paragon quadruped as part of a tauric creature, or a paragon guest on a symbiotic creature. All of those templates only count the humanoid's/host's level adjustment, but not any of the level adjustment of the other creature. Don't expect any DM to allow those shenanigans, though.

Truth, although on the lycanthrope, it requires more cheese, since, by RAW, you can never take the animal form, but if you are cool with only most of the bonuses, you're golden.

But an afflicted lycanthrope can be FORCED into the animal form. Then... viola! x3 speed baby

[Coventry]

You are getting a deal: I set paragon as a +15 Level Adjustment. Paragon is probably LA +18 for a skill monkey build.

It takes a variable amount of time to catch up to and surpass a non-paragon member of the same class. But you pretty much catch them all. Spell casting takes the longest to catch up, but if you're starting at Level 16 in your class, you're most of the way past the hump.

The only place that paragon never catches up is with Epic Spell slots per day, because those are based on ranks/10. The other guy's skill cap will be 15 higher than yours, so he will have 1-2 more epic spell slots than you.

[Immabozo]

You are getting a deal: I set paragon as a +15 Level Adjustment. Paragon is probably LA +18 for a skill monkey build.

+3 LA for skill applications alone? Not a chance. No one will ever take a +3 LA for +7.5 to all usable skills. Everyone would rather take a 6 + Int class three times. And then there is the added benefit of a higher skill cap, satisfying pre-reqs, hp, hd, class features, BAB, a feat, setting up for a PrC, or taking it, etc.

[Max Caysey]

How do you like them apples...

Cleric 14/Battle Dancer 1/ Shiba Protecter 1

44 (+17)
46 (+18)
42 (+16)
46 (+18)
44 (+17)
50 (+20)

Initiative: (+18)
Speed: 90ft
HP: 578

SR: 28
DR: 10/epic
Fast Healing: 20 (40)

AC: 10(base)+18(dex)+12 (paragon luck)+12(Paragon insight)+5(Natural)+5(ring)+18(monks belt)+20(cha, battle dancer)+8 (bracers) = (108)

Attack: +11/+6/+1

Attack modifiers: 11(base) +25(paragon) +17(str) +17(wis) +5(weapon enchant)

Full attack total: +75/+75/+70/+65 (80/80/75/70/65)


Base Saves: 11/6/11
Save modifiers: 16/18/17(stats)+10(paragon)+5(cloak)

Total Saves: 42/39/41

Damage: 1d6 + 61(81) /13-20x3
Damage Modifiers: +17(str)+17(wis)+20(paragon)+5(enchantment)+1(lami nated)+1(razor-sharp)



Feats: At home at the deep, Alertness, Iron Will, Initiate of Shar, Combat Reflexes, Robilar’s Gambit, Persist Spell, Divine Meta-magic, Divine Might, Power attack.

Items: Bracers of Armor +8, Ring of Protection +5, Monks Belt, The Shar Regalia*, Ring of Evasion, Dress of Blur. (Weapon: +5 Laminated adamantine, Serrated, Razor-sharp, keen, weakening, unholy power, Scimitar of speed).

The regalia of Shar: Elven crown +6 to all mental stats, Anklets +6 all physical stats.

Persisted Spells: Death Ward, Divine Power

Daily buff: Healthful Rest

She also has 2 flaws, but I have not chosen them yet. I am thinking of going Mystic wonderer, for charisma bonus to AC, but perhaps 108 AC is enough... :smallbiggrin:

[Immabozo]

snip

16 character levels + a LA 15 template for ECL 31?

How 'bout them apples?

level 22 Druid with the wildshaping amulet (+4 to effective hd for wildshaping)
Druid 8/Master of Many Forms 10/Nature's Warrior 4

I forget exact stats, been a while since I made the build, but it is something like:

AC 90 to 100
HP 200 (ish)
saves are fort and will mid 30s, ref upper teens
Attacks were 32 24 vorporal attacks at +50 or 60

ECL 22

EDIT: takes the form of a Gerivar, with arms of the grillon, and perfect multi armed (?) fighting, that is 3 attacks, each arm, with 4 arms, 24 attacks.

[torrasque666]

Actually, Paragon doesn't have an LA, only a CR adjustment. Doesn't that mean that its not for use by PCs?

[The Insaniac]

And then I cast blasphemy/dictum/holy word/word of chaos and kill you. Seriously, fifteen-ish fewer HD is not a good thing.

[Immabozo]

Actually, Paragon doesn't have an LA, only a CR adjustment. Doesn't that mean that its not for use by PCs?

You are absolutely correct, but it can still be gotten by PCs with cheese

[torrasque666]

You mean through the line in shapechange about assuming a non-unique form?

[Anlashok]

You are absolutely correct, but it can still be gotten by PCs with cheese

Nope. There's a difference between not having an LA entry and an LA - entry.

[Max Caysey]

All the abilities of this Template goes to creature. Human is also a creature. So it would apply to the human/elf/dwarf. It says nothing about not apllying to humans, or dwarfs or elfs...

The example in ELH is MInd-flayer.. you can play mind-flayer. Thus you can be a paragon humam wizard! Or Drow cleric paragon.

[Vaz]

Anlashok beat me to it.

[Immabozo]

You mean through the line in shapechange about assuming a non-unique form?


Nope. There's a difference between not having an LA entry and an LA - entry.

your lack of opt-fu makes me sad, your challenging me on what you dont know makes me even sadder. Shall I enlighten you? Or do you want your pretense of knowing the game un-shattered?

[torrasque666]

hey man, i was honestly seeing if that was the way you were talking about. I have no pretense about knowing the game any further than Warforged and their components.

No need to be hostile and insulting.

[Immabozo]

hey man, i was honestly seeing if that was the way you were talking about. I have no pretense about knowing the game any further than Warforged and their components.

No need to be hostile and insulting.

I do apologize, it was not intended to come across that way. However, both of you came at me in a challenging way. So you did kinda (perhaps unintentionally) back me into a corner.

Paragon on an animal, than use that animal in a lycanthrope, (paragon fits into the broad generalization of "any carnivore or omnivore") and there are actually several other templates that this cheese works with (magebred, warbeast, shadow with extra cheese, maybe one or two more)

You get the partial template(s) in hybrid. But, since you cannot use the Alter self ability to take a templated form, you can never take animal form. However, if you are an afflicted lycanthrope, there are several situations when you are FORCED into animal form. Bingo! Now you can get super speed (I built this character and got about 11,500 - 12,000 ft speed, a little under mach 4).

(the above is as little as LA +2 and 1 RHD)

Tauric works with a paragon templated creature. It is super cheese, but it is straight forward cheese.

Symbiotic is the same as Tauric.

[Socksy]

But an afflicted lycanthrope can be FORCED into the animal form. Then... viola! x3 speed baby

So... Prestissimo?:smalltongue:
Could be useful on a bard.

I don't think viola means what you think it means. It's a musical instrument, I think you meant "Voila". :p

[Immabozo]

I don't think viola means what you think it means. It's a musical instrument, I think you meant "Voila". :p

I knew I was spelling that wrong, but no idea what was wrong, just drawing a blank! Thank you